Fear is an Exploitable Mess of a Spell.

[Catullus64]

In all of these cases “while” indicates the period of time during which the effects are active.

“While you are wearing armor” isn’t a once a turn thing. You don’t get the +1 AC from DFS once a turn; you get it so long as you are wearing armor.

Just like you don’t just move away from the caster of Fear once, you do so as long as you are frightened by the spell.

All these rules work the same way; that is, their effects apply throughout the entirety of the time period indicated by the “While” clause. Arbitrarily deciding Fear works differently so you don’t need to follow the rules certainly isn’t RAW.

I feel like you're arguing against a phantom opponent here. None of the frequent contributors to this thread, that I've noticed, is trying to claim that Fear's effects don't persist through its duration. Specific words and phrases have been cited which muddle the clarity of the spell in terms of what it compels a creature to actually do.

Least of all is anyone trying to twist the rules to argue for a specific outcome in gameplay. The reason why I (can't speak for others, but I think there's a certain agreement about this) insist on reading the spell in a certain way is so that I can be clear about to what extent I'm departing from RAW when I choose to run the spell in a sensible way (i.e. requiring the frightened character to move their full Dash distance on their turn.)

I think you're distorting the intentions of your opponents here just a little bit.

[Xetheral]

A good one. It's one that, taken in context, does imply that it's something you should do all the time while on the trip. It's actually the first one that I find naturally constructed (in the same manner as the rule it's analogizing), but which actually conveys the "all the time" aspect intended.

I think the trouble here is that "move away from you on each of its turns" doesn't have the same sense of "throughout" that "wear a hat" does. In fact, it can be literally impossible for the character to move throughout his turn, even under the effects of the spell.

But given context CAN imply the intent, at least, we now have a second example where people would roll their eyes at somebody who interpreted the rule to mean "I wore one for five seconds, so I followed the rule, even if I was out for an hour and most of that time I didn't have a hat on." Moreover, we know from context that this rule is advice, because the consequences of breaking it will apply even if you "obey" it in such a manner.

Similarly, we know that fear is trying to represent being utterly terrified of the caster. Terrified people who are forced by their fear to dash away don't "take the dash action" to move only one foot away, squandering all the rest of the movement they could have used to create distance.

So I think I can accept this example as illustrating the validity of the interpretation that, at the least, context can imply that movement should be a near-continuous thing. Still poorly worded, because it should have said that they had to expend all of their movement trying to get away from the caster by the safest route possible unless there is nowhere to go.

I'm glad the example was helpful! :)

[RSP]

Note that aside from Find the Path all of those rules have a different wording from Fear, so they aren't actually indicative. "While X do Y" is different from "While X on each Z do Y".

Meanwhile for Find the Path (re-quoted for ease):
“While you are traveling there, whenever you are presented with a choice of paths along the way, you automatically determine which path is the shortest and most direct route (but not necessarily the safest route) to the destination.”

It does have roughly the same structure (While you're traveling=While you're frightened, when you have a choice of paths=when it's your turn, you determine the right path=you take the Dash action and move unless no space to move) but nothing says if you remain at the pathway you keep determing the right path. It's perfectly sensible to say that once you determined the right path you don't need to do it again for the same pathway (unless for whatever reason the right one changes).

I'd agree if it said "While Frightened move" and nothing else, but it doesn't do that (and I'm not sure that would be the only reading either).

I’m not sure why you believe there’s a question on it leading down the correct path. “While you are traveling there” does, indeed, indicate the entirety of the time traveling to “there.”

[Segev]

I’m not sure why you believe there’s a question on it leading down the correct path. “While you are traveling there” does, indeed, indicate the entirety of the time traveling to “there.”

You misunderstand what he said, because he never said "there's a question on it leading down the correct path."

What he said was that there is nothing in find the path that says the spell KEEPS pinging you with "THIS IS THE RIGHT PATH" as long as you're at the choice of paths. It could as easily ping you with that information exactly once. Fortunately, since you only need to be told once which path is the right one to be able to pick it out no matter how long you stay at the crossroads, this isn't an issue.

The point being that find the path's wording doesn't imply that even what it shares with fear's wording would require that either of them have a constant "thing" they're doing (whether telling you "THIS WAY IS THE RIGHT WAY" or compelling you to move and keep moving as long as you're able). Only that they do a thing on each event (reaching a choice of paths or each of your turns).

[Valmark]

I’m not sure why you believe there’s a question on it leading down the correct path. “While you are traveling there” does, indeed, indicate the entirety of the time traveling to “there.”

You misunderstood- I'm questioning wether it keeps telling you the right way once it already did it.

Let's say I come upon two roads and FtP tells me I have to go left- if I stop at the crossroad without going anywhere (maybe I'm taking a short rest) there's nothing in the text that says that it keeps telling me to go left for the whole time I'm still.

Indeed, since it says "Whenever you are presented with a choice" it's easy to think that it activates in the moment you come upon a crossroad and doesn't keep warning you while you're there (since when I present you something it usually means when I show it- I am not presenting it anymore afterwards)

[DwarfFighter]

So, with all that's been debated, I'm now thinking back to the original instance which provoked this thread.

The character who was affected by the Fear spell was a Swashbuckler Rogue. He wanted to, on his turn:

1. Pick up his sword.
2. Attack the fear-caster, with whom he was already in melee; between mitigating advantage and his Swashbuckler feature it would be eligible for Sneak Attack, and it would prevent the caster (also a potent melee adversary) from getting in an opportunity attack.
3. Use his bonus action to Dash.
4. Move some 15-25 feet away, the furthest position wherein he would not provoke opportunity attacks from other enemies near the exit from the chamber.

At the time, I got flummoxed because I was thinking of it as "do I allow this or not", and didn't have the wherewithal to break it down into its constituent parts. After the consideration of this thread, I would probably have ruled:

1. Yes, you can use your interact to pick up your weapon.
2. Yes, you can use your action to attack, provided that...
3. You use your bonus action to Dash.
4. Having taken your bonus action to Dash, you must move the full 60 feet which the Bonus Action dash has made your movement allowance for the turn, even through opportunity attacks, since there is no safer route away from the enemy within that movement range. (Here alone do I think I depart from strict RAW.)

That, to me, creates a readable picture of someone acting under the effects of the spell; they're frightened enough to flee, but still quick-witted enough to grab their blade and slash at the foe, fending it off well enough to hold it at bay while he scrambles off.

This seems to be OK RAW by me. I'm not super-happy about fulfilling the "must take the Dash action" by spending a bonus action instead of an action, but fine. It's a Rogue thing, and everyone should get to have their cool features shine once in a while.

The item drop isn't so trivially countered as to render it pointless: The caster should of course step up and grab the dropped item on the same turn he cast the spell, or send a minion or Unseen Servant to sweep away that trash.

I think you're right in calling for the character to keep moving while he can. Writing exhaustive compulsory movement rules is hard, so here it's all up to GM's discretion. Is moving away by jumping through a window safer than running past the guards at the door? The window option is certainly the most amusing to me!

I still think the "grab weapon and attack" goes against the spirit of the spell: The character sees "a phantasmal image" of their worst fear. Getting away from that should be their only focus, lashing out at the caster instead of the image belies that.

-DF

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Coming in late I know.

But honestly, I'd absolutely let someone with 2 levels of rogue or monk strike the thing they're by and then run. Fight or Flight can produce some weird reactions and I could very easily see "Oh my god, RUN!" while swinging my weapon right at it before I book it.

[Kuu Lightwing]

Haven't read this thread in it's entirety yet, but I'm wondering about something related. Frightened condition specifies that you cannot willingly move closer to the target of fear. Does that mean that if there's an escape route, but it's somewhat twisty so it would be required to take a couple of steps closer to the source of fear - does it mean that you cannot use that route at all? This question also becomes more interesting if we indeed subscribe to the idea that rules are not meant to say what they are saying, but the spirit is what matters.

[Valmark]

Haven't read this thread in it's entirety yet, but I'm wondering about something related. Frightened condition specifies that you cannot willingly move closer to the target of fear. Does that mean that if there's an escape route, but it's somewhat twisty so it would be required to take a couple of steps closer to the source of fear - does it mean that you cannot use that route at all? This question also becomes more interesting if we indeed subscribe to the idea that rules are not meant to say what they are saying, but the spirit is what matters.

Imo yes- like someone being forced into a corner. Though I wouldn't start calculating the exact distance to make sure there is space to run, it could be bothersome in some case.

[EggKookoo]

Haven't read this thread in it's entirety yet, but I'm wondering about something related. Frightened condition specifies that you cannot willingly move closer to the target of fear. Does that mean that if there's an escape route, but it's somewhat twisty so it would be required to take a couple of steps closer to the source of fear - does it mean that you cannot use that route at all? This question also becomes more interesting if we indeed subscribe to the idea that rules are not meant to say what they are saying, but the spirit is what matters.

I guess it depends on how you look at the rules. Some rules specify things like "end your turn," so you could say it's okay to use that path as long as you end your turn no closer to the source than you were at the start, but that opens up other issues (like running 10 feet toward the source, attacking it, then running 20 feet away).

But personally I subscribe pretty strongly to the idea that rules are meant to be interpreted, especially in this edition but I think it's always been true to one degree or another. What the players are working out at the table isn't literally what's happening in the fiction itself. The rules are a UI.

[Kuu Lightwing]

I guess it depends on how you look at the rules. Some rules specify things like "end your turn," so you could say it's okay to use that path as long as you end your turn no closer to the source than you were at the start, but that opens up other issues (like running 10 feet toward the source, attacking it, then running 20 feet away).

But personally I subscribe pretty strongly to the idea that rules are meant to be interpreted, especially in this edition but I think it's always been true to one degree or another. What the players are working out at the table isn't literally what's happening in the fiction itself. The rules are a UI.

I'm never against the idea that rules could be interpreted or even altered if the situation demands so, but at the same time I prefer more strict wording for the rules, which creates fewer situations like the infamous Dragon's Breath ruling or the multitudes of "Weapon Attack" variants that all mean different things. In this particular case, it definitely wouldn't hurt if rules were more clear about what Frightened person is meant to do with his Action and Move.

As for the example I mentioned, why I was thinking about it is because "closer" could mean linear distance, or it could mean the path it should take to reach you. I can see the argument for the second interpretation, which makes the escape through such a twisted route possible.

[Segev]

I think I would re-word it to say, "While frightened, the creature must take the dash action and expend all of its movement moving away from you by the safest possible route before doing anything else on each of its turns."

This, I think, satisfies the "don't stop to pick up what you dropped" and removes any question of what order you can take non-dash actions in, while leaving the frightened creature free to choose sub-optimal long-term escape routes and still having to actually move as far away as it reasonably can.

[Telok]

Coming in late I know.

But honestly, I'd absolutely let someone with 2 levels of rogue or monk strike the thing they're by and then run. Fight or Flight can produce some weird reactions and I could very easily see "Oh my god, RUN!" while swinging my weapon right at it before I book it.

People's fear & panic responses include anything from fleeing to fainting to freezing. But that's not what the spell does. I wonder if it's better to think of the spell as limited, one command, Dominate spell. Because if the intent was for a victim to flee to saftey there are a number of abilities a creature might have that would work better, but that can't be used due to requiring the dash action. The various teleportation abilities being among the most obvious.

[RSP]

Gotcha. Apologies for misunderstanding.

I imagine it would depend on two things:

1) whether you’re “traveling there” while short resting.

2) whether you determined the way you will go (that is, are no longer presented with a choice as you’ve already decided, or did you spend the SR to think about it).

Fear is a simpler conditional clause (“while frightened…”), though you could say there’s a second conditional clause in the effect of the spell - it only occurs on the affected creature’s turns.

Either way, if the either of the spells’ conditionals are met, yes, they do what they say.