[3.5] Reducing ACP Without Gear/Magic Options

[Thurbane]

So,

Just a bit of a thought excercise. Say I want to play a character who wears the heaviest possible armor (Thaalud Stone Armor, Mechanus Gear or similar).

How much can I reduce the ACP and other penalties (reduced movement etc.) without modifying the armor itself (no mundane mods, special material or magical properties), or relying on other gear, magic items or spells?

Ideally, just looking at class and feat based options. Basically, I'm happy to centre the build around this one thing, despite that being horribly suboptimal.

This is what I've found so far:

• Dread Commando 2/4 Armored Ease 2/4 (reduces ACP by 2 then 4).
• Heavy Armor Optimization feat reduces ACP 1 for heavy armor.
• Greater Heavy Armor Optimization feat reduces ACP 2 for heavy armor.
• Knight of the Crown 7 Armored Mobility (reduce ACP by 1, treat heavy armor as medium armor)
• Knight of the Flying Hunt 2/7 Armored Ease (reduces ACP by 2 then 4).
• Knight of the Lily 6 Armored Mobility (reduce ACP by 1, treat heavy armor as medium armor)
• Vengeance Knight 1/3/10 Armor Training (reduces ACP by 1/3/5; also progressively provides other benefits such as halving movement penalty, make it easier to don heavy armors and able to sleep in heavy armor).

• Guerilla Warrior feat reduces ACP by, but only for light and medium armor.
• Nightsong Enforcer 2 Agility training (reduces ACP by 2, but only for light armor)
• Ruby Knight Vindicator 5 Armored Stealth (no ACP, but for Hide only)

In terms of movement speed, without relying on magic

• Champion of Corellon Larethian 7 Unimpeded Movement.
• Dwarves can move at full speed in heavy armor (prefer not to be a dwarf if possible - I'd like a race with 30 ft base speed).
• Knight 4/9 Amor Mastery (ignore movement penalty for medium armor at 4th, and heavy armor at 9th).

Sources: All official 3.5 and 3.0 (except psionics or incarnum, in case that matters), preferably no Dragon or Dungeon mag; no PF, third party or homebrew.

Cheers - T

[Saintheart]

Well, if it's Masterwork armor, it has its ACP reduced by 1. You're not modifying the armor, that's how it's made.

More on point: Vengeance Knight (Champions of Ruin): progressively over the 10 levels, your ACP is reduced by 5. (Might not be reduced for Swim checks though.) Applies to heavy armor specifically.

Also: Knight of the Crown 7 (Dragonlance CS, which is still WOTC): a Knight of the Crown treats heavy armor as medium armor for all purposes including running speed. In addition, her armor check penalty when wearing heavy armor is reduced by -1.

Also also: Knight of the Lily 6 (Dragonlance CS): a Knight of the Lily treats heavy armor as medium armor for all purposes, including running speed. In addition, his armor check penalty when wearing heavy armor is reduced by -1.

[One Step Two]

Dwarves can move at full speed in heavy armor (prefer not to be a dwarf if possible - I'd like a race with 30 ft base speed).

If Unearthed Arcana is on the table, pick up the Quick Trait. +10 ft speed for -1 HP per level, as a Dwarf, you're negating the HP benefit of +2 Con, but you can now move 30ft in Heavy Armor.

[Darg]

Use the Shield Bearer fighter variant with the Armored Savant ACF and after 2 levels you reduce the speed penalty of any heavy armor to be that of light armor, increases the maximum dex bonus by +1 and the ASF is only half. Or, use mithral full plate, 1 level fighter with Armored Savant, and one level spellsword and the ASF is reduced to 0%. Shield Bearer can also increase the armor bonus and the maximum dex bonus by +1, but this also requires giving up 2 bonus feats.

[Thurbane]

Well, if it's Masterwork armor, it has its ACP reduced by 1. You're not modifying the armor, that's how it's made.

More on point: Vengeance Knight (Champions of Ruin): progressively over the 10 levels, your ACP is reduced by 5. (Might not be reduced for Swim checks though.) Applies to heavy armor specifically.

Also: Knight of the Crown 7 (Dragonlance CS, which is still WOTC): a Knight of the Crown treats heavy armor as medium armor for all purposes including running speed. In addition, her armor check penalty when wearing heavy armor is reduced by -1.

Also also: Knight of the Lily 6 (Dragonlance CS): a Knight of the Lily treats heavy armor as medium armor for all purposes, including running speed. In addition, his armor check penalty when wearing heavy armor is reduced by -1.

Nice. Vengeance Knight seems especially promising.

If Unearthed Arcana is on the table, pick up the Quick Trait. +10 ft speed for -1 HP per level, as a Dwarf, you're negating the HP benefit of +2 Con, but you can now move 30ft in Heavy Armor.

Good point, but then again I could do the same with a race with 30 ft base move, and get to 40.

Use the Shield Bearer fighter variant with the Armored Savant ACF and after 2 levels you reduce the speed penalty of any heavy armor to be that of light armor, increases the maximum dex bonus by +1 and the ASF is only half. Or, use mithral full plate, 1 level fighter with Armored Savant, and one level spellsword and the ASF is reduced to 0%. Shield Bearer can also increase the armor bonus and the maximum dex bonus by +1, but this also requires giving up 2 bonus feats.

Specifically trying to avoid special materials for this, but thanks.

Shield Bearer and Armored Savant both sound good - where could I find these?

[the_tick_rules]

There are also 2 feats from races of stone. Heavy armor Optimization and Greater Heavy Armor Optimization. Combined they decrease ACP by 3 and add 2 to the AC bonus as a side dish.

[Thurbane]

Just double checked - the ACP for Thaalud Stone Armor is only -8, and Mechanus Gear is -10.

So with the options presented, it's no biggie to reduce either to 0.

Thanks everyone for your feedback.

Also, really stoked to discover that Vengeance Knight can sleep in heavy armor!

So the main issue now is speed reduction. Either I play a Dwarf, or have to look at a gear based solution like Tooth of Savnok...

[Darg]

Armored Savant is in dragon #355

Shield Bearer is in dragon #310

[Remuko]

Armored Savant is in dragon #355

Shield Bearer is in dragon #310

Sources: All official 3.5 and 3.0 (except psionics or incarnum, in case that matters), preferably no Dragon or Dungeon mag; no PF, third party or homebrew.

important bit bolded for emphasis.

[Gorthawar]

Also, really stoked to discover that Vengeance Knight can sleep in heavy armor!

So the main issue now is speed reduction. Either I play a Dwarf, or have to look at a gear based solution like Tooth of Savnok...

You did realize that the 6th level Vengeance Knight ability already removes some of the speed penalty?

[ShurikVch]

Knight of the Flying Hunt (Champions of Valor) reduces ACP by 2 at 2nd level, and by 4 - at 7th

Also, Ruby Knight Vindicator gets Armored Stealth at 5th level
(And Bloodhound in 3.0 days had similar ability too, except even better - from their 4th level, they don't suffered any ACP for Hide and Move Silently checks, while RKV get it only for Hide checks)

[Thurbane]

You did realize that the 6th level Vengeance Knight ability already removes some of the speed penalty?

No, I'd missed that. Definitely helps, thank you.

Knight of the Flying Hunt (Champions of Valor) reduces ACP by 2 at 2nd level, and by 4 - at 7th

Also, Ruby Knight Vindicator gets Armored Stealth at 5th level
(And Bloodhound in 3.0 days had similar ability too, except even better - from their 4th level, they don't suffered any ACP for Hide and Move Silently checks, while RKV get it only for Hide checks)

Great suggestions.

[ShurikVch]

Some more finds:
Cambion demon (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits) gets Silent Metal SQ: no ACP for Hide and Move Silently
Cambion is 6 HD and LA +4 (or +5 - if Cambion Marquis or Baron)

Also, I know you asked "no Dragon, if possible", but just in case...
Feats:
Master Swimmer (#343): normal ACP for Swim check - rather than the usual "double"
Savvy Swimmer (#323): only half of ACP for Swim check (i. e. Banded Mail, for example, would inflict -3 penalty - instead the usual -12)

[Gorthawar]

Was just reviewing one of my NPCs now that we're finally able to play in person again and realized that Knight lvl 9 removes the speed penalty for heavy armor. Might be a little late but there you go.