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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Conquest Paladin build advice

    I'm planning an Oath of Conquest paladin for an upcoming game, basing it on this excellent guide by Legimus.

    I'm torn on two areas. First, between Aasimar subraces. We're using the rules from Tasha's so racial ASI are moot. I love the flavor and idea of the Scourge, burning themselves and everyone around them. But Fallen definitely fits better with the fear based build. On the other hand, you'll have lots of tools for generating fear, and an AoE aura is also excellent on a movement lockdown tank.

    The other questions is between sword and board and polearms. Sword and board lets me take shield master, and knock people down, who then can't get back up if they're afraid. Polearms let me do some great area control with Sentinel and Polearm Master, but potentially take more feats to get working.

    Sword and board also works much better with a hexblade dip, which I'm considering. Also tempted by bard.

    Any thoughts on what is better, or other options and feats to look at?

    My current thought is to go Scourge and sword and board, and then potentially switch fighting styles to polearms later on.
    Last edited by Demon 997; 2021-05-12 at 11:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fibinachi View Post
    Raxtel would like to quick-draw his grapnel and line gun and try to reel in Sarge like some particularly authoritive fish before we lose him in the middle of the rebel infested, colder-than-space tundra.
    Only War Jungle of Sin: Darrien Holt

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    Default Re: Conquest Paladin build advice

    You should consider asking a mod to move your thread to the 5e subforum, assuming that's edition you're playing.

    Now, to the point:

    Races and ASI go hand in hand, even with Tasha's because VHuman still gives you a free feat. You should probably focus on ASIs over feats. You'll benefit far more from having high Cha Str and Con (in that order) than from ASIs. The two feats I'd consider are Res (Con) if you have an odd Con score and PAM.

    Dipping hexblade isn't as good as some say. It reduces MADness, but doesn't solve it. You still need 15 Str to wear heavy armor without penalty, and - as a frontliner - you really don't want that penalty. Plus, you still need Con. And you delay a lot of important Paladin features (like Extra Attack, ASIs, Aura of Protection, Aura of Conquest, etc). Having seen Hexadins in play in early Tier 2, I was thoroughly unimpressed. I'd only consider dipping post level 13, as that's when Pallys reach their peak in the form of Find Greater Steed. Then again, Cleasing Touch is an amazing ability.

    Personally, I think PAM is amazing on Paladins, but then you pretty much have to go VHuman (or Custom Lineage) because all your ASIs should be going to actual ability scores.

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    Default Re: Conquest Paladin build advice

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    You should consider asking a mod to move your thread to the 5e subforum, assuming that's edition you're playing.
    Whoops, I could have sworn I was posting it there. Yes, if a mod could move it I'd appreciate it.

    Now, to the point:

    Races and ASI go hand in hand, even with Tasha's because VHuman still gives you a free feat. You should probably focus on ASIs over feats. You'll benefit far more from having high Cha Str and Con (in that order) than from ASIs. The two feats I'd consider are Res (Con) if you have an odd Con score and PAM.

    Dipping hexblade isn't as good as some say. It reduces MADness, but doesn't solve it. You still need 15 Str to wear heavy armor without penalty, and - as a frontliner - you really don't want that penalty. Plus, you still need Con. And you delay a lot of important Paladin features (like Extra Attack, ASIs, Aura of Protection, Aura of Conquest, etc). Having seen Hexadins in play in early Tier 2, I was thoroughly unimpressed. I'd only consider dipping post level 13, as that's when Pallys reach their peak in the form of Find Greater Steed. Then again, Cleasing Touch is an amazing ability.

    Personally, I think PAM is amazing on Paladins, but then you pretty much have to go VHuman (or Custom Lineage) because all your ASIs should be going to actual ability scores.
    I'm fairly settled on Aasamir. I agree VHuman is likely better, but I like the flavor a ton.



    I believe my DM will toss out a strength boosting item at some point within the first few levels, and my plan was to muddle along with 14 Str till then. Agreed on Res (Con).

    I think basically if I go polearms I stay mono class, or maybe a late bard or sorcerer dip. If I'm going sword and board, the one level Hexblade dip makes more sense. Lets me really focus Charisma and Con.

    Debating asking about the Menacing feat, but I think it's sort of broken. Means I'll want odd Con (for Resilient) but even Charisma.

    I'm thinking of going Str 14, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 17. Plan is to get Skill Expert as my first ASI, to get Cha to 18 and get expertise on Athletics for the shove action. Next ASI would be Resilient (Con) to make sure my Concentration saves go fine.

    This is fairly reliant on getting a Strength boosting item at some point, but I'm fairly confident on that.

    Is this nuts? Would I do better to drop Cha down to have Con at 16 from level 1, and not have two odd scores?
    Last edited by Demon 997; 2021-05-13 at 02:34 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fibinachi View Post
    Raxtel would like to quick-draw his grapnel and line gun and try to reel in Sarge like some particularly authoritive fish before we lose him in the middle of the rebel infested, colder-than-space tundra.
    Only War Jungle of Sin: Darrien Holt

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    Default Re: Conquest Paladin build advice

    I agree with a lot of what was said already about a VHuman and Res Con - it’s what I did for my Conquest Paladin and now I’m using a halberd without PAM though because I pumped Cha to 20 and have gauntlets of ogre power for strength (15 without)

    I think the fallen aasimar is a good idea with 17 cha at level 1 plus menacing feat at level 4. A lot of ways to get your fear across and your charisma mod helps your con saves out as well. 20 cha at level 8 and you have +7 to con saves (with 14 con; or +9 if you can get an amulet of health for 19 con).

    I’m not totally sold on PAM being required because I use spiritual weapon quite a bit; but I do use a polearm for the reach now because your enemy being 10’ away and unable to move is a nice easy target. If you go PAM at 12, then you can save slots for smites and just use spiritual weapon for enemy casters 60 away to try to break their concentration etc.

    I did go sword and board for the first 6 levels though. Just watch out for enemy ‘heat metal’ since you’ll be Darth Vader-ing a lot of encounters lol.

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    Default Re: Conquest Paladin build advice

    Leonin (from the Theros book) is also a good Conquest pally race, due to their racial fear ability. Aasimar is also excellent, though do note that the fear ability does not discriminate between friend and foe, whereas the leonin's does.

    As for sword-and-board vs. polearm, why not both? Spear and quarterstaff are both valid PAM weapons, and can be wielded in one hand.

    That said, you might be focusing on the wrong things here. My take on the Conquest pally is that STR is secondary, and CHA is their primary ability score. You're more focused on locking enemies down through fear than you are on making weapon attacks. Now, since Wrathful Smite is one of your fear abilities, and a quite potent one at that (albeit single target), being able to hit with your weapons is important.

    Point is, maxing CHA should probably be your first priority. If you can get Gauntlets of Ogre Power or a Belt of Giant Strength, then great. Otherwise, you might be better off leaving STR at 16 or so and picking up some nice defensive feats. Hexblade dip is an option, but you definitely want to get to paladin 7 first, and straight paladin is also perfectly fine (the capstone is nice).

    Resilient (CON), Heavy Armor Master, and Shield Master are all good defensive feats for this build. Naturally, it will be tricky getting all of these while also getting CHA to 20, and there may very well be other feats you want to pick up as well. The reason why defensive feats are a good choice for you, though, is because of your fear effects and the amount of control they exert over the battlefield. Even without dealing any damage, you'll still be a major thorn in the enemies' sides, and they'll be forced to deal with regardless. Plus, getting to reflect damage back on those who hit you makes HAM a lot more appealing (especially if you stack it with Armor of Agathys); you can wade into a room full of e.g. goblins and then just stand there and do nothing while they all kill themselves attacking you. (I consider this at least somewhat important because hordes are a traditional weak point for paladins; they just don't have good AoE, though their smites make them excellent against single targets.)

    It's also important to make sure you have a backup plan for when the enemy is immune to fear. Thankfully, paladin is a strong chassis, so you should always have options regardless of your subclass.

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    Default Re: Conquest Paladin build advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    Leonin (from the Theros book) is also a good Conquest pally race, due to their racial fear ability. Aasimar is also excellent, though do note that the fear ability does not discriminate between friend and foe, whereas the leonin's does.

    As for sword-and-board vs. polearm, why not both? Spear and quarterstaff are both valid PAM weapons, and can be wielded in one hand.

    That said, you might be focusing on the wrong things here. My take on the Conquest pally is that STR is secondary, and CHA is their primary ability score. You're more focused on locking enemies down through fear than you are on making weapon attacks. Now, since Wrathful Smite is one of your fear abilities, and a quite potent one at that (albeit single target), being able to hit with your weapons is important.

    Point is, maxing CHA should probably be your first priority. If you can get Gauntlets of Ogre Power or a Belt of Giant Strength, then great. Otherwise, you might be better off leaving STR at 16 or so and picking up some nice defensive feats. Hexblade dip is an option, but you definitely want to get to paladin 7 first, and straight paladin is also perfectly fine (the capstone is nice).

    Resilient (CON), Heavy Armor Master, and Shield Master are all good defensive feats for this build. Naturally, it will be tricky getting all of these while also getting CHA to 20, and there may very well be other feats you want to pick up as well. The reason why defensive feats are a good choice for you, though, is because of your fear effects and the amount of control they exert over the battlefield. Even without dealing any damage, you'll still be a major thorn in the enemies' sides, and they'll be forced to deal with regardless. Plus, getting to reflect damage back on those who hit you makes HAM a lot more appealing (especially if you stack it with Armor of Agathys); you can wade into a room full of e.g. goblins and then just stand there and do nothing while they all kill themselves attacking you. (I consider this at least somewhat important because hordes are a traditional weak point for paladins; they just don't have good AoE, though their smites make them excellent against single targets.)

    It's also important to make sure you have a backup plan for when the enemy is immune to fear. Thankfully, paladin is a strong chassis, so you should always have options regardless of your subclass.
    That’s a good point about Leonin.

    One thing I didn’t like about Leonin was starting with a 15 charisma but with Tashas I believe you can move the +2 con to charisma and start with 17 (and get menacing feat at level 4 if you want it)

    The cool thing about leonin is that their fear roar is a bonus action. So if you really had to go all out you could channel divinity fear as an action; then Bonus action roar to get anyone near you that passed their save. (If I understand the rules correctly)

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    Default Re: Conquest Paladin build advice

    I am currently playing a conquest paladin that currently went from 1 to 13 (and srill going)
    So allow me to share my experience.

    First of all using the frightening co ditio almost never worked for me. Between the saves, the imune ennemies and the situations where it didn't matter i have almost 0 mileage out of this.
    However conquest is still a great subclass because of the AMAZING spellist and guided strike.

    As for fighting style i am a big fan of keeping a free hand to be able to freely cast or use grapples and whatnot.
    I did not invest in any feat or fighting style that locked me into a specific weapon and this gives me great flexibility.

    I have a polearm that i use for its extended reach.
    A longsword for everyday cast and slash
    A couple shortsword if i need to burst smite something.
    And if we fight extra tough ennemies i just use a sheld in one hand and cast with the other.
    An upcasted spirit weapon while buffed by asimar racial is all the damage you needs and it leaves you with high ac and your whole action to use defensively in order to outlast anything.

    Speaking of racials i am a huge fan of the protector subrace.
    Yes it is less damage than the damaging aura. And yes fear does synergize well with tour subclass. But the subclass don't really need more fear effects to work.
    Beeing able to have concentrationless flight as early as level 3 is a gigantic boon though.

    And if you did not lock your hands with "useless" weapons you can draw a net toss it at the pesky flyer your are chasing with a whopping +10 from channel divinity and send it straight to the ground for your friends to whack at.

    As for multiclassing : straight paladin is fine but i do think it loose some speed after lvl11.
    Good multiclass options (aside the obvious hexblade wich, dor the record, i think is not versatile enough) are sorcerer (divine sooul is just amazing to stack up on defenses and utility) or sword bard.

    One important thing though is that your build don't need to be dedinitive and will likely change depending on what happen during the game and who your party members are.
    The great thing is that paladins are quite

    For example my character was designed as a tank.
    Except my party is a tabk fighter, a barbariand and a moon druid so there wasn't much to tank. So i instead seitched back to a support role, and am now shifting slowly towards damage dealer now that the barbarian is loosing speed on a damage point of view
    Last edited by DevilMcam; 2021-05-19 at 04:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Conquest Paladin build advice

    I agree that if you're wanting a racial fear effect, Leonin is superior to Fallen Aasimar. It resets on a short rest, and allows you to affect only targets of your choice. The Fallen Aasimar's fear effect resets on a long rest, and affects everyone within 10', including allies. (Same with the Scourge's damage; it hits nearby allies too.)

    However, there are a few newer paths to additional Fear effects to consider for a Conquest Paladin, which wouldn't have been included in older Conquest Paladin build threads/guides that you may find online:

    1) Take the Shadow Touched feat from Tasha's Cauldron, to get the Cause Fear spell. 1 free casting per day, plus you can cast it further using Paladin spell slots. Also gets you the Invisibility spell and +1 CHA. An option for a VHuman/CLineage Conquest Paladin to have from Level 1.

    2) Take a 1 level dip into the brand new Undead Warlock from Van Richten's Guide, which gets you Form of Dread. When activated, this allows you to force a WIS save on 1 enemy you hit with an attack per turn, with them being Frightened on a failed save until the end of your next turn, and Form of Dread also gets you some Temp HP and Fear immunity. This is usable Proficiency Bonus times per day, so it scales with character level, not class level. This 1 level Warlock dip also gets you a couple cantrips, such as Eldritch Blast which would give your Paladin a good long distance ranged attack option, an area in which Paladins typically fall short. Additionally, you get a short rest reset 1st level spell slot for casting or smiting, along with a couple additional 1st level spells known, such as Hex for when you want extra damage and Cause Fear for another ranged Fear effect option.


    Personally, I'd go with the Protector Aasimar with the 1 level Undead Warlock dip taken either after Paladin 1 or Paladin 2. Between Form of Dread, your Channel Divinity, and the Cause Fear spell, you have three different fear effects usable from early on - one short range single target, one long range single target, and one AoE. And they're usable more often than the Leonin/Fallen racial fear effect. Plus you'd have flight and some extra damage capability from Protector, without the friendly fire worries of Scourge or Fallen, along with some additional Warlock casting and cantrip options.
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2021-05-19 at 06:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Conquest Paladin build advice

    Having seen a Scourge Paladin in play, I’d advise against it. It seems cool, but the aura really messes with your concentration until you hit 6th(even then, one unlucky roll and you can lose the spell you were concentrating on before your turn even ends). The player was always losing Shield of Faith, Wrathful Smite, or Bless at odd times.

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    Default Re: Conquest Paladin build advice

    I would like to note that the Conquest Paladin, more so than pretty much any other Paladin, is dependent on their Charisma score. This is because your primary subclass features scale off of your Spell Save DC (as the targets have to be Frightened of you, as opposed to something like Devotion's attack bonus that only adds to what they are already doing).

    So I think adding Hexblade 1 and stacking Charisma would go a long way for this build. You could even be a Dwarf to ignore the weight requirements of Strength armor and keep your Strength at the multiclass minimum of 13.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2021-05-19 at 05:04 PM.
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    Default Re: Conquest Paladin build advice

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilMcam View Post
    I am currently playing a conquest paladin that currently went from 1 to 13 (and srill going)
    So allow me to share my experience.

    First of all using the frightening co ditio almost never worked for me. Between the saves, the imune ennemies and the situations where it didn't matter i have almost 0 mileage out of this.
    However conquest is still a great subclass because of the AMAZING spellist and guided strike.

    As for fighting style i am a big fan of keeping a free hand to be able to freely cast or use grapples and whatnot.
    I did not invest in any feat or fighting style that locked me into a specific weapon and this gives me great flexibility.

    I have a polearm that i use for its extended reach.
    A longsword for everyday cast and slash
    A couple shortsword if i need to burst smite something.
    And if we fight extra tough ennemies i just use a sheld in one hand and cast with the other.
    An upcasted spirit weapon while buffed by asimar racial is all the damage you needs and it leaves you with high ac and your whole action to use defensively in order to outlast anything.

    Speaking of racials i am a huge fan of the protector subrace.
    Yes it is less damage than the damaging aura. And yes fear does synergize well with tour subclass. But the subclass don't really need more fear effects to work.
    Beeing able to have concentrationless flight as early as level 3 is a gigantic boon though.

    And if you did not lock your hands with "useless" weapons you can draw a net toss it at the pesky flyer your are chasing with a whopping +10 from channel divinity and send it straight to the ground for your friends to whack at.

    As for multiclassing : straight paladin is fine but i do think it loose some speed after lvl11.
    Good multiclass options (aside the obvious hexblade wich, dor the record, i think is not versatile enough) are sorcerer (divine sooul is just amazing to stack up on defenses and utility) or sword bard.

    One important thing though is that your build don't need to be dedinitive and will likely change depending on what happen during the game and who your party members are.
    The great thing is that paladins are quite

    For example my character was designed as a tank.
    Except my party is a tabk fighter, a barbariand and a moon druid so there wasn't much to tank. So i instead seitched back to a support role, and am now shifting slowly towards damage dealer now that the barbarian is loosing speed on a damage point of view
    Darn, that's a pity. I'm hoping I'll get some use out of fear, but thanks for the heads up.

    What fighting style did you go with then? Protection?

    Party is looking to be me, a rogue, a sorc, and a barbarian. Not sure on subclasses yet.

    Definitely looking at all of those for multiclassing, though it'll probably depend on the rest of the party and what the campaign ends up looking like.

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueJK View Post
    I agree that if you're wanting a racial fear effect, Leonin is superior to Fallen Aasimar. It resets on a short rest, and allows you to affect only targets of your choice. The Fallen Aasimar's fear effect resets on a long rest, and affects everyone within 10', including allies. (Same with the Scourge's damage; it hits nearby allies too.)

    However, there are a few newer paths to additional Fear effects to consider for a Conquest Paladin, which wouldn't have been included in older Conquest Paladin build threads/guides that you may find online:

    1) Take the Shadow Touched feat from Tasha's Cauldron, to get the Cause Fear spell. 1 free casting per day, plus you can cast it further using Paladin spell slots. Also gets you the Invisibility spell and +1 CHA. An option for a VHuman/CLineage Conquest Paladin to have from Level 1.

    2) Take a 1 level dip into the brand new Undead Warlock from Van Richten's Guide, which gets you Form of Dread. When activated, this allows you to force a WIS save on 1 enemy you hit with an attack per turn, with them being Frightened on a failed save until the end of your next turn, and Form of Dread also gets you some Temp HP and Fear immunity. This is usable Proficiency Bonus times per day, so it scales with character level, not class level. This 1 level Warlock dip also gets you a couple cantrips, such as Eldritch Blast which would give your Paladin a good long distance ranged attack option, an area in which Paladins typically fall short. Additionally, you get a short rest reset 1st level spell slot for casting or smiting, along with a couple additional 1st level spells known, such as Hex for when you want extra damage and Cause Fear for another ranged Fear effect option.


    Personally, I'd go with the Protector Aasimar with the 1 level Undead Warlock dip taken either after Paladin 1 or Paladin 2. Between Form of Dread, your Channel Divinity, and the Cause Fear spell, you have three different fear effects usable from early on - one short range single target, one long range single target, and one AoE. And they're usable more often than the Leonin/Fallen racial fear effect. Plus you'd have flight and some extra damage capability from Protector, without the friendly fire worries of Scourge or Fallen, along with some additional Warlock casting and cantrip options.
    I agree Leonin is probably mechanically better, but I'm not sure it would fit in an Forgotten Realms setting, and I don't really like the flavor.

    I think Protector is essentially off limits, this is his first time DMing and the concept of having to balance around low level flight was stressing him out. I might go Fallen then, though I like the flavor way less.

    Undead Warlock looks interesting for sure. On the other hand it means not going Hexblade, and definitely feels like leaning more towards the evil side.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Pirate View Post
    Having seen a Scourge Paladin in play, I’d advise against it. It seems cool, but the aura really messes with your concentration until you hit 6th(even then, one unlucky roll and you can lose the spell you were concentrating on before your turn even ends). The player was always losing Shield of Faith, Wrathful Smite, or Bless at odd times.
    Oh man, I had not thought of that. Ugh, that is beyond annoying. And pretty much all your good spells are concentration. Was planning on an initial +3 Con mod, so that's roughly a 1/3 chance to lose concentration, every round you have it up. I suppose it's only 3 levels till Aura of Protection, which would jump you to +7, but that's still quite a while. I might ask the DM if he'll waive the checks, because otherwise it seems like a basically unusable ability for a caster. Or would that be OP or unreasonable to ask?
    Last edited by Demon 997; 2021-05-19 at 08:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fibinachi View Post
    Raxtel would like to quick-draw his grapnel and line gun and try to reel in Sarge like some particularly authoritive fish before we lose him in the middle of the rebel infested, colder-than-space tundra.
    Only War Jungle of Sin: Darrien Holt

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    Default Re: Conquest Paladin build advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon 997 View Post
    I agree Leonin is probably mechanically better, but I'm not sure it would fit in an Forgotten Realms setting, and I don't really like the flavor.
    You can refluff it. I had the concept for an evil overlord who was a former BBEG who was defeated by a group of heroes, and as a result lost most of his power (which is why he starts back at 1st level). Take the noble background with the retainer variant feature so I can have a group of three goblin minions who follow me around engaging in slapstick antics. "Lion-person" isn't exactly what I had in mind for this concept, but I can easily take the mechanics of the leonin and refluff the character as being human or of an undetermined race (the black spiky armor stays on at all times). Aasimar was also a top contender for this concept, particularly as both necrotic and radiant resistance seemed fitting for an evil overlord.

    I understand if you're set on assimar, but if your only objection to leonin was setting and fluff, there are ways of dealing with those. 5e is pretty flexible about taking the mechanics of one thing and dressing it up as something else.

    I can't remember if anyone has mentioned it yet, but a third option is dragonborn with their Dragon Fear racial feat. It's a pain because you need to spend a feat on it, but IIRC it lasts for a minute like the aasimar fear but allows you to exclude allies like the leonin fear. I think it gives a save every round and/or when they take damage (I don't have the book in front of me at the moment), so you'll rarely get the full minute, but even two or three rounds can make a huge difference.

    Of course, you don't need a racial fear ability, it's just nice to have one more way of creating fear. But a variant human/custom lineage would also work very well, especially considering how MAD paladins are and thus how feat-starved they can be. Any other race (using Tasha's rules to reassign ASIs) also works perfectly fine. One thing Tasha's did was make any race viable for any build, it's just that some races allow you to squeeze out a little extra oomph.

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    Default Re: Conquest Paladin build advice

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Pirate View Post
    Having seen a Scourge Paladin in play, I’d advise against it. It seems cool, but the aura really messes with your concentration until you hit 6th(even then, one unlucky roll and you can lose the spell you were concentrating on before your turn even ends). The player was always losing Shield of Faith, Wrathful Smite, or Bless at odd times.
    Once you get your Concentration to +9, Scourge can't break your Concentration (nat 1s only apply to attack rolls and death saves). However, even when you're past level 6, the Scourge transformation still messes with you, because it friendly fires anything within 10 feet of you (e.g. aura range, which you normally want to keep allies in). Also, it doesn't turn off even if you get knocked out, you can totally finish yourself off. Definitely an ability to be careful with.
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    Default Re: Conquest Paladin build advice

    Protection fighting style sort of locks tou into using shields.
    So i went for defense to have maximum versatility.
    I am probably end up dual wielding longswords in a couple levelz

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