New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Results 1 to 5 of 5
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Troll in the Playground
     
    SangoProduction's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Gender
    Male

    Default The most painfully bad class features (Spheres in Review)

    Preamble: I’d occasionally consider this Conscript class. But then decide against it after coming to analysis paralysis for a bunch of abilities that I didn’t think are actually that good. Maybe I can resolve this issue and more calmly pick this class.

    Link

    Post-Review Analysis:
    It was literally painful to go through the combat specializations. Like, my stomach started cramping. Perhaps because of the almonds, and not this, but this certainly did not help.

    Your class feature is just having a bunch of martial talents, and being able to scale any and all spheres optimally. That’s fine. Perfectly fine. Ignore the Combat Specializations… except Mount, I guess. And maybe a select couple Sphere Specializations.
    Last edited by SangoProduction; 2021-05-13 at 06:32 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Rynjin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: The most painfully bad class features (Spheres in Review)

    Conscript is much like Incanter. It's probably by far the strongest of its kind because it gets by far the most of what makes its kind strong.

    I remember a few of the Sphere specs being decent, but not overwhelmingly so. Really all that needs to be said about it. Do you want class features, or do you want power?

    Re: "flexing a Combat Feat isn't as good as flexing a talent"... I'm pretty sure it's exactly as good. Better even. Extra Martial Talent is a Combat Feat.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2021-05-13 at 07:02 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2015

    Default Re: The most painfully bad class features (Spheres in Review)

    First off, only your first specialization point costs 3 feats (including the 1st level feat) meaning if you want to spend at least 1 point then all the delayed effects become relatively better.

    Spoiler: specializations
    Show

    Mount was actually been errataed from 2 points to 1 because it used to be terrible. Getting an animal companion from beastmastery sphere only costs 2 talents after all (3 if you count the sphere). As you pointed out, now it is well worth it if you want a mount.

    Martial Flexibility: Extra Combat Talent is a combat feat, so this feature is actually pretty good.

    Indomitability: In my games will saves against effects that cause you to lose (fear, paralyze, dominate, mental ability damage, hostile teleport, hostile lift, eject) are pretty common, meaning having a good will save is important. So a better Iron Will (+2 -> +6 depending on level) is solid.

    Sneak Attack: +6d6 sneak attack over 18 levels is actually pretty solid if you want/need a source of extra damage. It has great synergy with dual wielding + fencing (feint) built that makes multiple attacks against flat-footed as an attack action and works quite well with sniper (+lethal precision) if you want to try keep sniper damage relevant.

    Evasion: In a world with Elementalists who force reflex saves against you die amounts of damage, Evasion saves lives. And 1 point (aka 2 feats is pretty cheap).

    Armor Training: This is actually an acceptable deal if you have a build that can make use of it. (2 feats for +4 AC and improved mobility in heavy armor).

    Favored Enemy: This is really solid for one-shots, as long as you know what monsters you will be facing. Especially if it is a one-shot for low levels. The feat target spotting could be used to have favored enemy (scouted creature), but the focus cost is a bit much in my opinion.

    Conscript Weapon Training: This feature is terrible at low levels, but becomes pretty good at levels 10+ as you can get gloves of dueling. Flat accuracy bonuses are important if your enemies also use spheres (as spheres AC is often really high), or you want to use a style that gives penalty to hit (barrage, power attack/deadly aim, lancer). Remember if you have any other specialization this only costs 2 feats at 10th level for about +3 hit & +3 damage. That would be +2 hit and +1 damage better than taking weapon focus and weapon specialization (not that you can take weapon specialization, as conscripts don't count as fighter for the purpose of feat prerequisites).

    Studied Target: The main draw here is the DC buff. If you want to build around something that forces enemy saves (say trap launcher to turn your traps into [snipe] talents, and then force a save vs. hard debuff + provoke ranged aoo for you to multiattack) then Studied Target is easily worth it.

    Sphere Specialization: In general, these are best if you expect the game to stay at low levels. Since you are typically trading high level feats for the 3rd, and 8th level benefits (the bonus talent and +1 effective bab/skill rank means specializations is essentially free at 1st level).

    Sphere Specialization [Brute]: Mightly Flex is an incredible ability because the brute maneuvers become really strong with investment and getting to grapple as an attack of opportunity just adds to that. (Shove -> Bull Rush [+Smash] -> Drop -> Snap Kick -> Mighty Flex [grapple] -> Clinch Strike is a shove + 3 unarmed strikes with some bonus damage that leaves the target prone and grappled).

    Sphere Specialization [Warleader]: Born Leader is an incredible ability if you have allies who can benefit from your teamwork feats, and I would strongly recommend it for any conscript who wants to use the Warleader sphere. If your party has some animal allies, summons, or other melee minions to help create a frontline then the combined benefit of Precise Strike, Outflank, and Aggressive Flanking tactic grants them an easy +4 hit, +1d6 damage, and critical hits provoke attacks of opportunity.


    Now the point is that the sum of abilities from specializations is often better than just having a few extra feats. Now it depends a bit on how much you value classic marital abilities such as high accuracy, damage, ac, and hp, compared to special abilities (turning combat feats into legendary talents with extra combat talent is clearly superior for special abilities, but feats won't add stacking to hit, damage, or ac like conscript specializations can).

    Spoiler: how it all comes together
    Show

    Example 1: You want to build a roguish x-bow sniper using conscript. 6th level.
    Specializations: Sneak Attack, Studied Traget, Indomitable Will
    Feats: Improved Initiative, Extra Combat Talent, Ability Focus [Flash Trap]
    Talents: Equipment (Expert Reloading, Mechanical Savant, Unarmored Training), Fencing Sphere, Scoundrel Sphere (Bob and Weave), Sniper Sphere (Lethal Precision), Trap Sphere (Flash Trap, Opportunist, Trap Launcher)
    Effect: You can hide in an ally's shadow as a swift action, to gain sneak attack within first increment. Use studied target as a move action Snipe a poor soul for 1d8+2d10+4d6+4 (+for magic items), force a DC 16+CAM vs. Blind if they fail fire AoO for 1d8+4d6+4 (+ for magic items).

    Your specialization points here have cost you 4 feats for +2d6 damage (that usually applies), +1 hit, damage, save DC (and +1 to multiple skills), and +3 Will save.

    At 12th level, the benefits would be 7 feats for +4d6 damage (that usually applies), +2 hit, damage, save DC (and +2 to multiple skills), and +4 Will save.

    Example 2: You want to use conscript to build an unarmed wrestler/pugilist. 10th level
    Feats: Dragon Tattoos, Muscular Reflexes (likely Giantslayer and Titan Breaker, but maybe Transformation, Improved Transformation instead if your GM allows you to grow Large/Huge with it).
    Items: Gloves of Dueling, (+2 your Tattoos)
    Specializations: Sphere Specialization [Brute], Conscript Weapon Training
    Talents: Brute Sphere (Drop, Greater Brute, Hammer, Smash), Open Hand Sphere (Axe Kick, Greater Trip, Joint Lock, Snap Kick), Wrestling Sphere (Clinch Strike, Hammer Lock, Talented Tie Up)
    Effect: Between Smash and Dragon Tattoos your enhancement and weapon training bonuses apply to brute maneuvers and trip and your enhancement applies to grapple, making it possible to land maneuvers. A typical turn might be Shove -> Bull Rush [+Unarmed Damage] -> Drop [+dice from hammer] -> Snap Kick [+Unarmed Damage] -> Grapple -> Clinch Strike [+Unarmed Damage & Entangle].
    The poor target is now prone, entangled, and grappled (with -6 Dex, and -4 to attacks from grapple instead of the normal).

    Benefits: You spent 6 feats (and 5k gp compared to +3 dragon tattoos) for +3 hit & +3 damage, a bonus talent in brute, the ability to continue your combo into grappling (it is possible to get an immediate action attack from elsewhere if you can't grapple, but the lockdown from grapple has real value; invaluable), and you ignore enemy size bonuses to CMD vs. your bull rush (which triggers all the other maneuvers).

    Example 3: You want to be a 10th level conscript based off of mental attributes who does minionmancy and debuffs.
    Specializations: Sphere-Specialization [Warleader], Indomitable Will
    Talents: Alchemy Sphere (Improved Acid Flask, Improved Alchemist Fire, Improved Flash Powder, Salve, Snap Toss), Beastmastery Sphere (Animal Companion x2, Bolster Beast, Greater Trainer x3, Purposeful Training), Gladiator Sphere (Frightful, Master of Fear, Piercing Fear), Warleader Sphere (Persisting Influence)
    Effect: You buff up 3 full HD martial animal allies and an animal companion (+any party members who might benefit) with 2 teamwork feats and the ability to flank by being adjacent to the target (this persists for 2 rounds after your tactic ends, if you can't spend a swift action/want to snap toss something). You also have several birds trained to carry your improved [formulae] to carpet-bomb enemy formations [this is an actual paizo trick you can teach animals], and debuff them with escalating fear using Gladiator.

    Benefits: You spent 5 feats to gain 2 teamwork feats (you share with at least 4 frontline creatures who don't have to qualify), a bonus Warleader talent, +1 rank in diplomacy, the ability to have your army spend immediate actions to grant you up to +10 AC against attacks that would reduce to you 0 hp, and +4 Will save.

    Example 4: You are playing in a 1st level 1-shot (or a low level campaign that at most might reach 3rd level)
    Specializations: Sphere Specialization [any], Indomitable Will, Resolve

    Benefits: You spent 1 feat to gain 1 extra combat talent, +1 scaling with that sphere, +2 Will, and Resolve 1/day.

    Example 5: You want to make a 10th level archer who mostly uses full attacks because it works in base pathfinder and in spheres.
    Feats: Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Deadly Aim, Improved Critical
    Specializations: Conscript Weapon Training, Indomitable Will, Armor Training
    Talents: Barrage Sphere (Augmented Grip, Close Combat Specilist, Vigilant Sharpshooter x2), Equipment (Armor Training, Critical Genius, Huntsman Training, Magic Armor/Alchemy:War Paint), Gladiator Sphere (Bloodthirst, Theatrical Boast), Sniper Sphere (Perfect Shot)
    Effect: You look like a typical archer fighter, except you have 15-20/x2 crit with an immediate action extra attack if you crit, good ref and will save, and some free talents to dabble in alchemy, flying, scout/stealth if you want to. If enemies break line of sight/you gain surprise round or have to move then Barrage is still really solid.
    Benefit: You spend 5 feats to gain +3 hit & damage (with a +2 bow and gloves of dueling compared to a +3 bow), +4 Will, +3 AC, and increased mobility in heavy armor.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Troll in the Playground
     
    SangoProduction's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The most painfully bad class features (Spheres in Review)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Conscript is much like Incanter. It's probably by far the strongest of its kind because it gets by far the most of what makes its kind strong.

    I remember a few of the Sphere specs being decent, but not overwhelmingly so. Really all that needs to be said about it. Do you want class features, or do you want power?

    Re: "flexing a Combat Feat isn't as good as flexing a talent"... I'm pretty sure it's exactly as good. Better even. Extra Martial Talent is a Combat Feat.
    I thought so, but I didn't know for sure. So that's even better than anticipated. Granted, there are other classes that do flex many talents. But they don't get near as many baseline talents. So yeah. Quite good.

    And yes, I agree that it is at its pinnacle when getting a bunch of talents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lirya View Post
    Stuff.
    Noted.

    And thanks for explaining the Mount point cost.
    Last edited by SangoProduction; 2021-05-13 at 04:15 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2009

    Default Re: The most painfully bad class features (Spheres in Review)

    Trading a feat at 1, 10, and 20 for a string will save is probably a good idea. Reflex tends to do damage, fort kills you, and will makes you kill your friends. As you’ll probably never pay that third feat, it’s probably worth it.

    Martial flexibility and Weapon Training would be great together if you counted as a fighter. Flexing advanced weapon training can grant some neat abilities. 11 feats worth? That’s a tough question.

    I usually get the will save and then just take all the talents as a conscript.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •