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Thread: The Yo-Yo Monk

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Default The Yo-Yo Monk

    Over the past month or two, I have been trying to create a strength based monk that would be a useful, powerful, and most importantly fun character to play.

    My one rule was that they had to wear plate armor.

    My first attempt was a drunken master monk 14, Cleric 6 build that I immediately scrapped on the count of it just being bad.

    Next, I continued to experiment with the Clerimonk, making a drunken master 12, cleric 8 (very original, I know), which was still not up to scruff.

    Then, I attempted to create a Astral Self 17, Samurai 3 build that I eventually realized, only minutes before posting, that the main interaction it was keying off wouldn't work RAW or RAI.

    Finally, I am presenting this build:

    Race: Ahmonket Minotaur
    Class: Monk 14, Fighter 6
    Subclass: Way of Mercy, Rune Knight
    Progression: Fighter 1, Monk 14, Fighter 5
    Ability Scores: 13+2 STR, 13 DEX, 14 CON, 9 INT, 15+1 WIS, 8 CHA
    ASI’s: Ritual Caster (Wizard) @5, +2 WIS @9, +2 WIS @13, Mobile @18.
    Fighting Style: Defense
    Runes: (Cloud Rune, Fire Rune)

    Ritual Spells:
    Find Familiar, Detect Magic

    What is this build's niche:
    Yo-Yo healing with the best of them. A very high AC as well as decent DPR when we want to.

    Essentially, we do it all.

    Why a Minotaur from Ahmonket, specifically?:
    Relentless Endurance and 1d6 unarmed strikes are the primary reason.

    Here's a glimpse of all the fun things we can do:

    Good Maneuverability: 40 feet movement speed from mobile and the opportunity to prevent OA's. Thank you Mobile.

    High AC: 18(Plate Armor) + 2(Shield) + 1(Defense) = 21 AC. We aren't going to get hit that often. Meaning not only can we move around the battlefield well, even if we do get targeted by OA's we have a good chance of not getting hit.

    Healing / Damage Prevention: Hands of Healing allows us to do stupid shenanigans by continuously bringing our team mates back to a little bit of life. Cloud Rune allows us to switch heavy hitting attacks to hit other opponents rather than our allies.

    Now is also a good time to talk about Find Familiar: We get to do all the OP familiar shenanigans like having them administer potions to low health team mates or having them take the help action to give the party rogue guaranteed sneak attack.

    Decent DPR: DPR is our weakest thing to do with our turn. There is so much more that we can do with our action economy. But if we do attack, we have a few tricks to increase our DPR. Fire Rune does damage when we attack and each round, but even better, it takes an enemy out of a fight. Hands of Harm also allow us to add a martial arts die + WIS mod to an attack, which is also good. Giant's Might deals another d6 of damage. Additionally, our unarmed strikes are 1d6 thanks to being a minotaur.

    In my opinion, this is the Celestial Generalist of monks, and I am extremely proud of it.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Jon talks a lot; 2021-05-14 at 09:53 PM. Reason: I am bad.
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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: The Yo-Yo Monk

    I'm fine with it, but I guess a lot of people don't like epic level builds. Take 2 from it, I'd recommend losing Runic Shield and Storm Rune (I know they are awesome, I've played a RK), but if you lose 2 levels of Monk, you are giving up on Diamond Soul and 2 Ki points. Well... tbh both are ok, more survivability for you, or more control of the combat, your choice.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Yo-Yo Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukelnikov View Post
    I'm fine with it, but I guess a lot of people don't like epic level builds. Take 2 from it, I'd recommend losing Runic Shield and Storm Rune (I know they are awesome, I've played a RK), but if you lose 2 levels of Monk, you are giving up on Diamond Soul and 2 Ki points. Well... tbh both are ok, more survivability for you, or more control of the combat, your choice.
    I did basic math wrong, didn't I?
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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: The Yo-Yo Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon talks a lot View Post
    I did basic math wrong, didn't I?
    Seems that way, and you removed Cloud instead of Storm

    I like this kinda build challenges, so what are the rules here?

    Must wear Plate, must have at least 11 monk levels (so we are a monk with something else, and not something else with monk?), aaaaand anything else? Do we wanna fight without weapons?
    Last edited by Rukelnikov; 2021-05-14 at 08:02 AM.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: The Yo-Yo Monk

    https://ddb.ac/characters/50300598/hlSnvu

    My submission, will add some details later, once my kids go to sleep. :-P
    Last edited by BigRedJedi; 2021-05-14 at 07:00 PM. Reason: Update for multiclass stat requirement.

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    Default Re: The Yo-Yo Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukelnikov View Post
    Seems that way, and you removed Cloud instead of Storm

    I like this kinda build challenges, so what are the rules here?

    Must wear Plate, must have at least 11 monk levels (so we are a monk with something else, and not something else with monk?), aaaaand anything else? Do we wanna fight without weapons?
    Kensei 19/Fighter 1 Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert is already good if played as an archer as a monk with hand-to-hand option of necessary, but I just realized additionally has the ability to wear plate + shield for AC 20, 22 after agile parry. Your movement speed will be crummy in plate but your AC is terrific, and you can still bonus action Dodge.

    It's a really amusing alternate mode for a build which is normally all about mobility and ranged firepower. Turtle Mode Kensei. :) Could be useful at low levels, especially in certain dungeon crawls where AC happens to matter more than movement speed.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-05-14 at 06:19 PM.

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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: The Yo-Yo Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Kensei 19/Fighter 1 Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert is already good if played as an archer as a monk with hand-to-hand option of necessary, but I just realized additionally has the ability to wear plate + shield for AC 20, 22 after agile parry. Your movement speed will be crummy in plate but your AC is terrific, and you can still bonus action Dodge.

    It's a really amusing alternate mode for a build which is normally all about mobility and ranged firepower. Turtle Mode Kensei. :) Could be useful at low levels, especially in certain dungeon crawls where AC happens to matter more than movement speed.
    I was thinking something similar, Ki Fueled Attack, combined with Focused Aim ans SS means you can reliably get a BA ranged attack, and if you didn't its cause you hit with both attacks. That's why I asked if we wanted to fight unarmed

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Yo-Yo Monk

    Drunken Master for Performance proficiency

    Proficiency in Cello from Outlander background.

    Yo-Yo Ma-nk.

    (Cue trombone music.)

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: The Yo-Yo Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Kensei 19/Fighter 1 Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert is already good if played as an archer as a monk with hand-to-hand option of necessary, but I just realized additionally has the ability to wear plate + shield for AC 20, 22 after agile parry. Your movement speed will be crummy in plate but your AC is terrific, and you can still bonus action Dodge.

    It's a really amusing alternate mode for a build which is normally all about mobility and ranged firepower. Turtle Mode Kensei. :) Could be useful at low levels, especially in certain dungeon crawls where AC happens to matter more than movement speed.
    This is one of the rare times where a build would actually be mechanically interested in switching up what armor they're wearing depending on the expected day/fight ahead of them, which I think is really cool. Normally PC's have a set of armor that they always wear until they either find a strictly better set or are required to remove it for roleplaying reasons.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Yo-Yo Monk

    The rules for the builds are as follows:

    Heavy Armor proficiency and userequired by level 5 at the latest.

    More monk levels than any other class levels. Additionally, your build must be atleast 8 levels in monk.
    Last edited by Jon talks a lot; 2021-05-14 at 09:54 PM.
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: The Yo-Yo Monk

    To take this to the next level and play the name as a pun, might I suggest using a whip and refluffing it as a deadly Monk Weapon yo-yo? Dedicated Weapon will take care of its weapon classification, and now you yo-yo EVERYTHING! I only lament that you can't use Mercy Monk with Grave Cleric to get even more extreme healing yo-yo effects...

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: The Yo-Yo Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon talks a lot View Post
    The rules for the builds are as follows:

    Heavy Armor proficiency and userequired by level 5 at the latest.

    More monk levels than any other class levels. Additionally, your build must be atleast 8 levels in monk.
    Monk (astral self) 4 / forge cleric 1 / Monk +15

    Why?
    - astral self only needs wisdom for attacks, greatly reducing the Monk's MAD.
    - it's a perfect subclass to mix with with heavy armor usage; other subclasses still want to max out dex for attack/damage.
    - you only need 20 wis, 13 dex (multiclass) and 15 str (13 when playing a dwarf).
    - while most monks hardly have opportunity's to pick feats, this one has plenty; assuming point buy, you can start with wis 17, and only need 2 or even 1 (with a half feat) on wis increase. Meaning you can pick 3(!) feats without a problem. Mobile, Alert, Lucky, Eldritch Adept, fighting initiate, defensive duelist... plenty of good options.
    - cleric 1 is enough for heavy armor profiency, also when taken later in the build (which is appropriate if this is mainly a monk, and more important if you start from level 1: monk 1 is a total dead level if you can't use martial arts, which you can't with heavy armor.
    - there are a lot of great cleric 1 dip subclasses. Arcane (proficiency and 2 wizard cantrips, knowledge (2 proficiencies with expertise), light (wis/day give disadvantage as a reaction), peace (prof/day bless like power on skills/saves/attacks), twilight (shareable darkvision 300ft, advantage on initiative for somebody in the party)... only the latter gives proficiency in heavy armor though (and subclasses like life, tempest and war are less interesting for this build). But: if you're gonna sacrifice your monk speed for armor, you best go all in imo. Heavy armor + shield = AC 20, forge cleric makes that 21. At level 5 already (assuming you can get your hands on full plate), which is very respectable, and can be improved with feats.
    - cleric spells highly improve the build (think guidance, a ranged cantrip and whatever you fancy; healing word, bless, shield of faith, maybe some utility with detect magic)

    You end up with a pretty cool build, wearing heavy armor & shield, running into melee, manifesting ghost arms, and beating people up with it, with some buffing, optional healing, skill bonusses and utility from the subclass, mobility with step of the wind.... and on top of that quite some customizablity through feats.

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    Default Re: The Yo-Yo Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Waazraath View Post
    Why?
    - astral self only needs wisdom for attacks, greatly reducing the Monk's MAD.
    Your damage is terrible though. You can't use Martial Arts in heavy armor, and so your Wis-based unarmed strikes do only 1+WIS damage. You'd probably be better off with an actual Str-based weapon like a greatsword. 2d6+2ish (9ish) isn't much but it's better than 1+5 (6).

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: The Yo-Yo Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Your damage is terrible though. You can't use Martial Arts in heavy armor, and so your Wis-based unarmed strikes do only 1+WIS damage. You'd probably be better off with an actual Str-based weapon like a greatsword. 2d6+2ish (9ish) isn't much but it's better than 1+5 (6).
    Ah! That's interesting! I've never interpreted the increased damage of the monk as specific martial arts feature, cause it's in the monk table. But you are correct it is listed there in the text, good catch, thnx.

    Going from there: just start as custum race from Tasha's with a feat for the unarmed fighting style. It even increases your damage at the early levels, only being reduced compared to a normal monk from monk lvl 11 (lvl 12 in this build).

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    Default Re: The Yo-Yo Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Waazraath View Post
    Ah! That's interesting! I've never interpreted the increased damage of the monk as specific martial arts feature, cause it's in the monk table. But you are correct it is listed there in the text, good catch, thnx.

    Going from there: just start as custum race from Tasha's with a feat for the unarmed fighting style. It even increases your damage at the early levels, only being reduced compared to a normal monk from monk lvl 11 (lvl 12 in this build).
    That works, but it's a heavy opportunity cost: now you're paying a feat and a subclass and ki just to give yourself mediocre damage. The Kensei build gets much better damage via Sharpshooter+CE and Archery style, even though its Stunning Strike is less efficient due to not maxing Wisdom.

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: The Yo-Yo Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    That works, but it's a heavy opportunity cost: now you're paying a feat and a subclass and ki just to give yourself mediocre damage. The Kensei build gets much better damage via Sharpshooter+CE and Archery style, even though its Stunning Strike is less efficient due to not maxing Wisdom.
    Your overestimating the opportunity cost. I'm not "paying a feat and a subclass and ki just to give yourself mediocre damage.", I'm paying a feat and a subclass to have a monk with a superior AC compared to other monks, while hardly loosing out on the damage front compared to regular monks (don't forget, this specific subclass increases damage above and beyond what most other monk classes do with lvl 11 and 17 features), AND, by choosing this, you free 3 other feats to customize at will, which something regular monks can't do either.

    Yes, the kensai's build does more damage, but utility is nice as well.

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    Default Re: The Yo-Yo Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Waazraath View Post
    Your overestimating the opportunity cost. I'm not "paying a feat and a subclass and ki just to give yourself mediocre damage.", I'm paying a feat and a subclass to have a monk with a superior AC compared to other monks, while hardly loosing out on the damage front compared to regular monks (don't forget, this specific subclass increases damage above and beyond what most other monk classes do with lvl 11 and 17 features), AND, by choosing this, you free 3 other feats to customize at will, which something regular monks can't do either.

    Yes, the kensai's build does more damage, but utility is nice as well.
    By neglecting Dex you save yourself two ASIs compared to normal monks, but you spend one of those ASIs on getting unarmed fighting style. Yes, your AC 21 is above average for a Monk while wearing plate and wearing a shield, but your movement is bad, and your damage and your subclass features are mediocre (11th and 17th levels notwithstanding). Any other point buy monk can get AC 20 and two feats (vs. your three feats) without sacrificing movement, but then they also get other stuff on top, such as the Shadow Monk's stealth / mobility / reaction attack, or the Elemonk's Fireballs and Hold Persons and Walls of Fire, or the Kensei's extra damage.

    I think the combo you suggest would be attractive if you didn't have to spend a feat boosting your damage, but IMO that little bit of extra cost tips the scales from "unusual and fun" to "worse than similar alternatives."

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Yo-Yo Monk

    PSA:

    Minotaurs, tabaxi, centaurs, tortles, and Lizardfolk have unarmed strikes that deal a d4 or greater.
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    Lavaeolus's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Yo-Yo Monk

    The Unarmed Fighting FS opens up some more flexibility in terms of race. This can be obtained either with a feat or a 1-level dip in Fighter, which is something of an opportunity cost but hey. It does mean a Variant Human / Custom Lineage can start with it, which might be of particular use if, for whatever reason, you wanted to avoid Fighter or if you wanted both Unarmed Fighting and the Defense Fighting Style.

    Last time I speculated on a heavy-armor Monk I noted that, unless you went for Kensei, you no longer needed to care about wielding a Monk weapon: you may as well swing around a maul or whatever else you felt like. After all, you'd already shut off Martial Arts.

    That's not as true now. Assuming the Tasha optional features are all in, Ki-Fueled Attack can let you squeeze in an extra bonus-action attack with 'an unarmed strike or a Monk weapon'. Still, 5th-level-onwards there's nothing stopping you from using a special or heavy weapon as part of your Attack action then, providing you've used Focused Aim, making an unarmed strike afterwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Kensei 19/Fighter 1 Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert is already good if played as an archer as a monk with hand-to-hand option of necessary, but I just realized additionally has the ability to wear plate + shield for AC 20, 22 after agile parry. Your movement speed will be crummy in plate but your AC is terrific, and you can still bonus action Dodge.

    It's a really amusing alternate mode for a build which is normally all about mobility and ranged firepower. Turtle Mode Kensei. :) Could be useful at low levels, especially in certain dungeon crawls where AC happens to matter more than movement speed.
    This was also a thought that crossed my mind. It's a very different approach to the Strength-based build of the OP, but ranged Kenseis are already less WIS-dependent than your traditional Monk. Your unarmed strikes won't be anything to write home about, even with natural weapons, but they also won't be as core to your kit.
    Last edited by Lavaeolus; 2021-05-16 at 01:57 AM.
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    Default Re: The Yo-Yo Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Lavaeolus View Post
    This was also a thought that crossed my mind. It's a very different approach to the Strength-based build of the OP, but ranged Kenseis are already less WIS-dependent than your traditional Monk. Your unarmed strikes won't be anything to write home about, even with natural weapons, but they also won't be as core to your kit.
    Yeah, unarmed strike damage on a monk is never that impressive in the first place though. At best it's adequate, on the same level as basic Agonizing Eldritch Blast spam. Subclass abilities can add enough damage to match Hex, but overall, monk unarmed strike damage is more of a consolation prize than a main event. (Except against monsters resistant or immune to normal weapons, in which case monk damage is excellent compared to most non-warlock alternatives.)

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Yo-Yo Monk

    Surprise no one has mentioned the nature cleric/long death armored monk that used to pop up here from time to time a while back.

    Nature cleric gives you heavy armor and shilleliegh, personally I would go hill dwarf and drop strength and get the extra hp. Allows you to focus on WIS and CON and potentially squeeze in a feat some where, this used to be PAM for the bonus action attach from your quarter staff, but this is no longer needed with ki fueled strike from Tashas.

    You get all of the monks defensive abilities and are less MAD, at the cost of some offense and movement. I'd probably take sentinel to try help control of foes and hand out what stunning strikes I could.

    The Yo-Yo bit could be spending a ki point to stop you dropping to 0hp at long death monk 11.

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