Pls advise on Paladin-like character for a player

[Firechanter]

Hello Playground,

I want to help a friend of mine with her character for our upcoming game, bc she is having a hard time delving into rules and options and hasn't really played PF before. [Note, this is about PF1]
Her wishes are:

- Half-Elf
- Paladin or at least a Paladin-like feel
- Dex-based Melee w Cha synergy
- competent in a bunch of (Rogue) skills and Diplomacy
- easy to play (not more spells than regular Paladin)

Traits, Alternate Racial Traits and Racial FC bonuses are all available.
As for sources, ACG is the chronological cutoff point -- after much negotiation, Hybrid classes are in play; every source published after that (esp Occult, Psionics) is not.
Path of War is also allowed, but I guess that will be too much hassle for her, and I don't want to micromanage every maneuver for her.
3.5 content permitted on case by case basis

I've toyed around with Virtuous Bravo and alternatively Swashbuckler builds, but it bugs me somewhat that the Bravo gives up spellcasting entirely.

So, question to the playground:

What ways are there to make a viable Dex-based Paladin that doesn't give up Paladin spellcasting? Would it suffice to simply tack on a level or three of Unchained Rogue and be done with it?

The rest of the party will consist of, by current stage of planning,
- Warlord (TWF)
- Warder (2H)
- Evangelist Cleric
- Arcanist (w some nerfs)

And yes, currently there isn't really a dedicated Ranged character (we had one player who wanted to go for Ranger but he dropped out), so it'll be interesting to see how the group plans to overcome that deficit.
The prospective Paladin player is not particularly interested in being an Archer Pala, unfortunately. Though maybe I can weasle it in anyway. ^^

[Kurald Galain]

- Paladin or at least a Paladin-like feel
- Dex-based Melee w Cha synergy

Well that's straightforward enough. Take the paladin class, the feat Weapon Finesse, and the feat Dervish Dance. Done.
The scimitar is a suitable weapon for a paladin of (e.g.) Sarenrae, and this gives you dex to hit and dex to damage.
You'll be fairly competent in all dex- and cha-skills, especially diplomacy. I recommend using traits to put those rogue skills on your class list.



If you want a wholly different approach, go for Bloodrager with Celestial Bloodline (that's very paladin-ish and gets a bonus against evil outsiders); use Urban Bloodrager archetype to increase your dex when raging, instead of str. And again, Weapon Finesse + Dervish Dance.

Either way I would not recommend a three-level dip in rogue.

[Firebug]

What about something like Ninja 2/Paladin X?

Dex based is probably simple enough with Weapon Finesse and an Agile weapon.

Ninja 2 is for the Ki Pool, a ninja trick, and skills (class skills and 8/level). Ki Pool is Cha based, and gets you standing jump as if you were running (which is fun to surprise people when you are kitted out in full plate). It also allows you to spend a Ki as a swift for another attack at full BAB or increase your movement speed by 20 for a round. The ninja trick can be a combat feat (combat trick), invisibility as a swift action (vanishing trick), or even bombs (rogue trick->bomber).

A bit more borderline for a Paladin is Sneak Attack +1d6, though I'd say if you disallow Paladins using sneak attack, you should also disallow flanking. Maybe consider bumping up to +2d6 with Accomplished Sneak Attacker, or more with Unsanctioned Knowledge->Sense Vitals. Code of Conduct disallows poison use, though there is a bit of a loophole in some of the specific deity Paladin's Codes because some of them replace the Code of Conduct entirely and some supplement. Specifically, Sarenrae replaces and doesn't disallow poison... if your enemy isn't fighting 'fair'. The best battle is a battle I win. If I die, I can no longer fight. I will fight fairly when the fight is fair, and I will strike quickly and without mercy when it is not. Though... taking a literal reading might be closer to the Cult of the Dawnflower than the standard Sarenrae faithful.

Another reason for picking up a Ki Pool on a Paladin is for Tea of Transference. Its relatively cheap at medium levels and it allows you to trade out Ki Pool for low level spells, Smite Evil, Lay on Hands and Channel Energy. Well, Channel Energy with the Hospitaler archetype anyway, since it gives you an actual separate Channel Energy pool. And once you have both of Ki and Channel... Ki Channel allows you to bring up another level of optimization for essentially unlimited Ki (once you have 2d6 Channel) and everything else that the Tea affects. You need to serve Irori instead of Sarenrae though.

[Firechanter]

Yes that sounds lovely, I'll suggest that. ^^ (Just a bit worried she'll find that too complicated)

BTW I don't have any issue with Paladins using Sneak Attack, especially not while Flanking. In my book Pals aren't Lawful Stupid guys who expect the multiverse to play by their rules.

[upho]

Hello Playground,

Hullo!

- Paladin or at least a Paladin-like feel
- competent in a bunch of (Rogue) skills and Diplomacy

I like the character concept, but I'm afraid it may be problematic especially in this context. The pally class grants only 2 skill points/level, and this PC will also need a build powerful enough in general to pull her own weight and be fun for a beginner to play, in a party consisting of PCs of notably more powerful classes played by experienced players (more on this below).

As for sources, ACG is the chronological cutoff point -- after much negotiation, Hybrid classes are in play; every source published after that (esp Occult, Psionics) is not.
Path of War is also allowed, but I guess that will be too much hassle for her, and I don't want to micromanage every maneuver for her.

So no 1st party options published after August 2014, but PoW is allowed?

That honestly seems a bit weird, and not exactly great for class balance. Have you suggested staying clear of the Occult and DSP options other than PoW (Psionic, Akashic, Bloodforge, etc), but allowing the many other later Paizo options?

If your GM isn't already aware, I suggest you try to inform them (as humbly as you can) that especially Paizo martial classes may gain tremendously from these later options, and that they've all been made easily accessible for free on aonprd.com. (For example, these options include a very large majority of the class features, feats and items which saved the fighter from mediocrity as one of the weakest Paizo classes in the game, transforming it into the Paizo class with typically the greatest potential in the game for combat focused characters.)

Which leads me to:

The rest of the party will consist of, by current stage of planning,
- Warlord (TWF)
- Warder (2H)
- Evangelist Cleric
- Arcanist (w some nerfs)

(Note: The following is simply based on the general relative power of these classes, as I don't know the builds of the specific PCs or how they're played individually or as a team.) As you probably know, the warder and the warlord gain quite significant class features in addition to their maneuver progression, and many of these are typically gained in early levels. For example, 20 levels in the warlord class grants 80 skill points and a minimum of six - and quite possibly up to more than twelve - bonus feats, about two thirds them provided by the first 10 levels. In contrast, 20 pally levels grant 40 skill points and zero bonus feats, while one could IMO rightfully claim the pally needs at least as many skill points and bonus feats as the warlord to help compensate for the lack of maneuvers.

This means that while it may of course still be perfectly possible to build a pally(-based) PC with an overall mechanical capability to overcome adventuring challenges that, at least on paper, matches reasonably well with that of the other party members, the number of viable options and in turn character concepts would be very limited for such a pally. And more importantly IME, if the player of the pally is very inexperienced in comparison to the players of the full casters and initiators, in order for her pally to be reasonably balanced in practice, the pally's "on paper"-power should preferably not only be easier to benefit from in most in-game challenges/situations, but also be actually greater and more reliable.

So, how do we solve this in a build which also accurately reflects the character concept the player wants? Well, IME the simplest solution is often the best: we cheat!

More seriously, I strongly recommend you to talk to your GM about granting the pally 4 skill points/level and a bonus combat feat at say 1st, 4th, and every four levels thereafter (or possibly some other type of boost of roughly equal power). Combined with a build optimized for ease of play and reliability, I believe this should be enough for the pally to stay true to the character concept and to keep up with the rest of the party in terms of the PC's mechanical impact on the game, while remaining easy enough for a beginner player to handle and enjoy. But if staying strictly within the rules, I unfortunately believe it's highly likely the build will fail to meet one or more of these three objectives.

(If you'd like a clearer picture of what I'm getting at, you could try building the ninja 2/pally X suggested by Firebug according to the rules up to say 10th level (or less if the game is expected to end earlier), and stat her out fully equipped with the gear you'd expect her to have at that level. Then do the same with the party's warder or warlord, imagine that build played by an experienced player and compare it to the pally played by a beginner, and see whether you'd find it likely that one of these PCs would have a significantly greater overall impact on the actual game's story than the other.)

I've toyed around with Virtuous Bravo and alternatively Swashbuckler builds, but it bugs me somewhat that the Bravo gives up spellcasting entirely.

So, question to the playground:

What ways are there to make a viable Dex-based Paladin that doesn't give up Paladin spellcasting?

I think the Swashbuckler can be a fantastic option for a Dex-primary/Cha-secondary build for this character concept, but since the greatest benefit (read: opportune parry and riposte) is thankfully gained at 1st level, remaining levels can be taken in the pally class and the spellcasting will merely be delayed by a single level. This type of build is highly suitable for an AoO/reach control/debuff "tank" style, which can thankfully also be made relatively easy to play and highly effective.

And yes, currently there isn't really a dedicated Ranged character (we had one player who wanted to go for Ranger but he dropped out), so it'll be interesting to see how the group plans to overcome that deficit.
The prospective Paladin player is not particularly interested in being an Archer Pala, unfortunately. Though maybe I can weasle it in anyway. ^^

I wouldn't worry about this. Between the mobility offered by maneuvers and various buffs, and the many great ranged spells available to the casters in this party, I don't think you'll ever be more than mildly inconvenienced by lacking a member with a ranged weapon combat focus. You may however have to develop a few basic default frontline tactics and adapt the builds of especially the melee combatants accordingly, as they may otherwise end up inadvertently barring each other from performing effectively.

Yes that sounds lovely, I'll suggest that. ^^ (Just a bit worried she'll find that too complicated)

Let me know you'd like to see a build outline of a swashbuckler 1/pally X "tank" build. I believe it can be made to have a bit fewer moving parts to keep track of than a damage focused sneak attack build, and to be a bit less dependent on meeting certain conditions (such as flanking) to be effective in combat. And it can also be tweaked to consistently pull off pretty hilariously powerful teamwork melee shenanigans with especially the warder and warlord in later levels. However, it would be a relatively late bloomer as a damage focused build, and most likely not as effective as for example a ninja sneak attacker (at least not before higher levels). So if you believe the party is in greater need of increasing its hp damage output than its area control/debuff power, a ninja build might be preferable.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by upho
Let me know you'd like to see a build outline of a swashbuckler 1/pally X "tank" build.

I for one would love to see this build outline.

[Firechanter]

Okay we had some more deliberation together before the game is supposed to launch on thursday.

- what I failed to mention is that the Cleric is very unoptimized. An Elf, actually. The player is fine with using a suboptimal race/class combo.
- the Arcanist is off the table again; the player is switching to a Magus.

When I suggested the Pala-Ninja to the player, she was actually enthusiastic about it. So that's good. ^^ However I also got the feeling that it's not really important that she's actually a Paladin by class, but I can't quite figure out a suitable alternative (see below).

So, how do we solve this in a build which also accurately reflects the character concept the player wants? Well, IME the simplest solution is often the best: we cheat!

More seriously, I strongly recommend you to talk to your GM about granting the pally 4 skill points/level and a bonus combat feat at say 1st, 4th, and every four levels thereafter (or possibly some other type of boost of roughly equal power).

You know what, I already toyed with the same idea, at least concerning the skill point base, and I think it's in the realm of possibilities. We already decided on hacking an "Unchained Ninja" that also (like the UnRogue) gets Finesse Training, the ability to sneak attack partially concealed targets and re-replaces Poison Use with Trapfinding.
With 4+Int skills we'd certainly have more breathing space for the players desires to be the party Face/Rogue Skillmonkey.

I keep moving in circles a bit bc I think about getting rid of Paladin altogether, but then remember that it would be desirable to have an inherent access to Flight by roughly level 10; in this case attainable w the Angelic Aspect spell (which with Ninja 2 will be delayed anyway). I mean, it's okay when nobody can fly; it's also fine when only one can fly, but it truly sucks to be the only party member who _can't_ fly, so I would like to avoid that situation.

[NightbringerGGZ]

A few options:

1. A dexterity-based Paladin works really well if you just pick up Dervish Dance or Slashing/Fencing/Starry Grace. I do recommend ignoring the errata to the 'Grace feats. Starting off with one level of Swashbuckler and playing a human will let you start off with dex-to-damage immediately before going into Paladin.
2. I've personally seen a Bard/Paladin build work really well, just alternating every level. It's not high levels of optimization, but provides a fair bit of party utility while letting a player be in the front-lines of combat.
3. Your player should consider playing a Cavalier with the Daring Champion archetype. You gain some of the useful features from the Swashbuckler for being a dex-based fighter while trading away your mount and charge class features. You still have your Cavalier's Order however, which gives you the challenge mechanic in place of smite. You also get 4+Int skills per level, so you're a bit better off than the Paladin would be.

[Gnaeus]

Honestly, I think making a vigilante archetype stalker, taking the trait to swap any discipline for Silver Crane, then loading up heavily in SC maneuvers sounds easier to explain and run than vancian casting and making a Paladin who can stand up to PoW classes

[Firechanter]

Sure, Stalker would technically be an option; the difference however is that none of us has ever played one and therefore cannot advise on proven strats. OTOH I know Paladins and can give her a shortlist of spells she can always prep.

I finalized the Pal/Nin last night and the player is happy, but if it turns out too wonky we can always respec.