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2021-05-15, 06:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Roguish Archetype: The Sanguinary
Hey y'all,
This is a revised version of something I accidentally posted in the D&D 5e board. Moving it here to save the mods time. This is for D&D 5e, it's a rogue subclass, and I'd like some feedback on it. This has been revised for feedback from Ilerien.
Roguish Archetype: Sanguinary
Sanguinaries are rogues that steal life itself from their victims. Though the first sanguinaries were trained by the vampire blackguard Lord Banal, members of sanguinary orders can be found on several planes. Sanguinaries serve as spies, diplomats, and saboteurs, draining the strength from their opponents before inviting their allies inside. While most sanguinaries are serving wicked masters, there are some (very) open-minded clerics willing to use sanguinaries to fight fire with fire, as it were.
Sanguinary Abilities
Whenever an ability references your sanguinary abilities, the difficulty class and attack roll are calculated thusly:
Difficulty Class: 8 + your Charisma modifier + your proficiency bonus
Attack Roll: Your Charisma modifier + your proficiency bonus
Charisma is your spellcasting ability modifier for any spells referenced.
Vampire's Blade
At 3rd level, you can steal some of your opponent's strength away to amplify your own. When you successfully hit a living creature with a Sneak Attack using a melee weapon attack, spend one Hit Die and choose one of the following effects:
- Red Harvest. The target must make a Constitution saving throw against your sanguinary DC. If they fail, you gain one rogue Hit Die, or two if this attack was a critical hit. If this would take you over your maximum rogue Hit Dice, those extra dice are lost.
- Sap the Will. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw against your sanguinary DC. If they fail, you break their will to resist you. The target is charmed by you, remains in place, and takes no actions. These effects end at the start of your next turn.
- What Blood Can Tell. Learn one secret the target knew.
When you spend the Hit Die to use this ability, you may choose to roll it and add the result as either temporary hit points or to the damage of your Sneak Attack.
Spoiler: Design NotesSo the goal of this subclass is a rogue that uses Hit Dice to power their abilities and also draws strength from weakening others. You can gain a Hit Die because that lets you keep using some of your abilities over longer adventuring days. Now, about the secrets. For some reason, this is controversial. Personally, as a DM, I like having a lot of ways to deliver scenario hooks and information. That's why this is here - I want this player to be able to engage with multiple pillars of play, lead the party towards multiple scenarios, and just have some worldbuilding fun.
Children of the Night
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to cast the spells animal messenger and beast sense by expending a Hit Die. You can only cast these spells upon bats, rats, or wolves. You may cast speak with animals at will, but only upon bats, rats, and wolves. In addition, you have advantage on death saving throws, your eyes have a slight reddish glow in areas of dim light or darkness, and your canines become noticeably more pointed.
Bleed Them Dry
At 9th level, whenever you hit a living creature with a Sneak Attack using a melee weapon, you can spend two Hit Dice to force the creature to make a Constitution saving throw vs your sanguinary DC. If it fails, it takes one level of exhaustion. In addition, spending so long in shadow has sharpened your senses - you gain darkvision out to a range of 60 feet. If you already have darkvision from your race, its range increases by 30 feet.
Spoiler: Design NotesThere are three significant limitations on this ability: you have to hit them (with a Sneak Attack in melee), they have to fail their saving throw, and setup time. Standard 5e design philosophy is that fights take three rounds. Even if you hit every time, and they fail their saving throw every time, the worst effect they get is disadvantage to attack rolls and saving throws. Before that it's a speed reduction and disadvantage on all ability checks. Unless your BBEG is a grappler or a monk, it takes three rounds and some solid luck before this starts to effect combat. But I can see uses for interrogation, tracking, or even setting a combat up.
Slip the Net
At 13th level, you can cast the spells gaseous form and spider climb on yourself by expending three rogue Hit Dice without requiring any components or your concentration. Dismissing a spell you cast this way requires your action. Additionally, as long as you're conscious, you can expend two rogue Hit Dice and end one of the following conditions on yourself: grappled, restrained, or paralyzed on your turn (no action required). If you do, you can't take actions or reactions until the beginning of your next turn.
Spoiler: Design NotesThanks to Ilerien for the great feedback!
Blood Is My Strength
At 17th level, you can swap hit point pools. Choose any two living creatures you can see, including yourself. You must expend ten Hit Dice which forces both creatures to make a Constitution saving throw against your sanguinary DC. If you are one of the creatures, you do not need to make a saving throw. If both creatures fail, they swap hit point totals. If this would bring one creature above their maximum hit points, they instead gain the difference as temporary hit points. Once you use this feature, you must complete a long rest to use it again.Last edited by Sparky McDibben; 2021-05-18 at 09:21 AM.
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2021-05-16, 02:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roguish Archetype: The Sanguinary
I have a sorcerer subclass with pretty much the same vampiric schtick (stealing secrets from blood in particular, inspired by Seanan McGuire's October Daye series) in my stash. Though yours is more elegant, tying everything to sneak attack and hit dice. :)
DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity score
Also, I understand you don't want to make it MAD, but dexterity doesn't quite feel like a right ability here from the story perspective. Maybe base it on constitution?At 3rd level, you can steal some of your opponent's strength away to amplify your own. When you hit a living creature with a Sneak Attack using a melee weapon attack, choose one of the following effects:Memories in Their Veins. Choose one skill. For 1 minute, you have advantage and the target has disadvantage on checks with the chosen skill.
Sneak attack rider effects synergize extremely well with "command" abilities that allow to spend a reaction to attack (e.g. battle master's commander's strike).At 9th level, whenever you hit a living creature with a Sneak Attack using a melee weapon, you can spend two Hit Dice to force the creature to make a Constitution saving throw with a DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity score. If it fails, it takes one level of exhaustion. In addition, spending so long in shadow has sharpened your senses - you gain darkvision out to a range of 60 feet. If you already have darkvision from your race, its range increases by 30 feet.
What I don't like is how it overlaps with 3rd level Memories in Their Veins option: one successful application of this one renders the debuff part moot. Maybe change Memories in Their Veins to some statblock-revealing ability that lets you have advantage on checks (or saves) involving the target's highest ability score (or saving throw bonus)?This still feels off to me - anybody got any ideas for this?
I'd change the wording:
You can cast spider climb or gaseous form on yourself by expending four rogue Hit Dice without requiring any components or your concentration. Dismissing a spell you cast this way requires your action.
Additionally, as long as you're conscious, you can expend two rogue Hit Dice and end one of the following conditions on yourself: grappled, restrained, paralyzed on your turn (no action required). If you do, you can't take actions or reactions until the beginning of your next turn.Blood Is My Strength
At 17th level, you can swap hit point pools. Choose any two living creatures you can see, including yourself. You must expend ten Hit Dice which forces both creatures to make a Constitution saving throw with a DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity score. If you are one of the creatures, you do not need to make a saving throw. If both creatures fail, they swap hit point totals. If this would bring one creature above their maximum hit points, they instead gain the difference as temporary hit points. Once you use this feature, you must complete a long rest to use it again
Honestly, I can't quite figure if it's useless or broken. :DLast edited by Ilerien; 2021-05-16 at 03:01 AM.
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2021-05-16, 04:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roguish Archetype: The Sanguinary
Thank you for these - good catches! I'm actually torn between using Constitution and Charisma for the base skill for all these abilities. Using Charisma makes it effectively MAD (you need Dexterity, Charisma, and Con for the hit points). Using Constitution gives you a beefy rogue, but also synergizes with the healing in level 3 - not sure which one I want here. Thoughts?
I figured the "hostile" verbiage, renders the rats a non-viable target. Am I wrong there?
So I hear what you're saying here, and you're quite right. However, I see a six-level gap between the two abilities, which is why I wasn't as concerned about this. But, you still have a good point. What about something like this to replace Memories in Their Veins:
Sap The Will. If the target fails a Wisdom saving throw, you break their will to resist you. The target is charmed by you, remains in place, and takes no actions. This effect lasts for 1 minute, but the target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.
Thoughts?
That is outstandingly useful. Thank you so much!
Oh snap - good catch! I figure this is one of those things that'll require playtesting to know for sure.
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2021-05-17, 02:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roguish Archetype: The Sanguinary
Constitution makes more sense from the game mechanics perspective, in my opinion. Charisma might make a bit more sense from the story perspective, but since it delivers these effects with a gross physical attack, constitution is still excusable.
I figured the "hostile" verbiage, renders the rats a non-viable target. Am I wrong there?
So I hear what you're saying here, and you're quite right. However, I see a six-level gap between the two abilities, which is why I wasn't as concerned about this. But, you still have a good point. What about something like this to replace Memories in Their Veins:
Sap The Will. If the target fails a Wisdom saving throw, you break their will to resist you. The target is charmed by you, remains in place, and takes no actions. This effect lasts for 1 minute, but the target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.
Thoughts?
That is outstandingly useful. Thank you so much
Oh snap - good catch! I figure this is one of those things that'll require playtesting to know for sure.
My guess is it can be an encounter-ending power if this rogue gets themselves near death and then uses this on that ancient dragon the party is fighting, assuming it has burned its legendary resistance already. I don't see much value in swapping HP with a party member, I don't know, some sort of a beefy summoned creature perhaps? Can probably serve as emergency healing for a nearly-downed ally.
How overt would be a use of this power out of combat, BTW?
All in all, it's a hard to evaluate ability. Registers on my wtf radar, so to speak. :DLast edited by Ilerien; 2021-05-17 at 12:11 PM.
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2021-05-18, 09:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roguish Archetype: The Sanguinary
Thanks Ilerien - I've adjusted a few things for your feedback; I look forward to hearing your thoughts!
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2021-05-31, 01:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roguish Archetype: The Sanguinary
If it isn't an issue for another person to comment, I have few notes. Because, conceptually, this looks really fun to play.
Just to check, are the PC is gaining the hit points from spending this die? Dwarven Fortitude fortitude specifies this, for example. If they don't, Red Harvest is only worth trying on a crit (and probably not even then) because when it isn't a crit you'd be spending 1 hit die to gamble to get 1 hit die back at best.
I'd also note that if the target doesn't have a story relevant secret, you could just make up something about who they're fears, ambitions, jealousies, or loves.
I fail to see why these would use hit dice. I like that the previous abilities do, because it feels vampiric. But you could probably just grant these without needing the spend a resource and be fine.
My initial thought was panic, because if the party can waste the tarrasque's legendary saves and the wizard's familiar can choose to fail its save the tarrasque needs a 9 or better on the save or it is instantly reduced to 1 hit point. On the other hand, that's not worse than some of the nonsense full casters can get up to, so that panic might not be warranted.Last edited by sandmote; 2021-05-31 at 01:57 AM. Reason: saw typos after hitting post
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2021-05-31, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roguish Archetype: The Sanguinary
Hey, not a problem and I'm always glad to get feedback! See the last line in the ability for details. :)
The way I'm thinking about it, the sanguinary has to use resources to power these abilities because they aren't a full-fledged vampire, and thus have to "burn blood" (to use a VtM phrase) to power them.
I mean, think about how much setup that costs the party, too. They have to survive for at least three rounds in range of a tarrasque, including the beast's legendary actions and spell-turning, and then hope like hell they get lucky. Sounds like plenty of risk for the payoff to me! :DLast edited by Sparky McDibben; 2021-05-31 at 01:19 PM.