New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Results 1 to 7 of 7
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Gender
    Male

    Default Roguish Archetype: The Sanguinary

    Hey y'all,

    This is a revised version of something I accidentally posted in the D&D 5e board. Moving it here to save the mods time. This is for D&D 5e, it's a rogue subclass, and I'd like some feedback on it. This has been revised for feedback from Ilerien.

    Roguish Archetype: Sanguinary
    Sanguinaries are rogues that steal life itself from their victims. Though the first sanguinaries were trained by the vampire blackguard Lord Banal, members of sanguinary orders can be found on several planes. Sanguinaries serve as spies, diplomats, and saboteurs, draining the strength from their opponents before inviting their allies inside. While most sanguinaries are serving wicked masters, there are some (very) open-minded clerics willing to use sanguinaries to fight fire with fire, as it were.

    Sanguinary Abilities
    Whenever an ability references your sanguinary abilities, the difficulty class and attack roll are calculated thusly:

    Difficulty Class: 8 + your Charisma modifier + your proficiency bonus
    Attack Roll: Your Charisma modifier + your proficiency bonus


    Charisma is your spellcasting ability modifier for any spells referenced.

    Vampire's Blade
    At 3rd level, you can steal some of your opponent's strength away to amplify your own. When you successfully hit a living creature with a Sneak Attack using a melee weapon attack, spend one Hit Die and choose one of the following effects:

    • Red Harvest. The target must make a Constitution saving throw against your sanguinary DC. If they fail, you gain one rogue Hit Die, or two if this attack was a critical hit. If this would take you over your maximum rogue Hit Dice, those extra dice are lost.
    • Sap the Will. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw against your sanguinary DC. If they fail, you break their will to resist you. The target is charmed by you, remains in place, and takes no actions. These effects end at the start of your next turn.
    • What Blood Can Tell. Learn one secret the target knew.

    When you spend the Hit Die to use this ability, you may choose to roll it and add the result as either temporary hit points or to the damage of your Sneak Attack.

    Spoiler: Design Notes
    Show
    So the goal of this subclass is a rogue that uses Hit Dice to power their abilities and also draws strength from weakening others. You can gain a Hit Die because that lets you keep using some of your abilities over longer adventuring days. Now, about the secrets. For some reason, this is controversial. Personally, as a DM, I like having a lot of ways to deliver scenario hooks and information. That's why this is here - I want this player to be able to engage with multiple pillars of play, lead the party towards multiple scenarios, and just have some worldbuilding fun.


    Children of the Night
    At 3rd level, you gain the ability to cast the spells animal messenger and beast sense by expending a Hit Die. You can only cast these spells upon bats, rats, or wolves. You may cast speak with animals at will, but only upon bats, rats, and wolves. In addition, you have advantage on death saving throws, your eyes have a slight reddish glow in areas of dim light or darkness, and your canines become noticeably more pointed.

    Bleed Them Dry
    At 9th level, whenever you hit a living creature with a Sneak Attack using a melee weapon, you can spend two Hit Dice to force the creature to make a Constitution saving throw vs your sanguinary DC. If it fails, it takes one level of exhaustion. In addition, spending so long in shadow has sharpened your senses - you gain darkvision out to a range of 60 feet. If you already have darkvision from your race, its range increases by 30 feet.

    Spoiler: Design Notes
    Show
    There are three significant limitations on this ability: you have to hit them (with a Sneak Attack in melee), they have to fail their saving throw, and setup time. Standard 5e design philosophy is that fights take three rounds. Even if you hit every time, and they fail their saving throw every time, the worst effect they get is disadvantage to attack rolls and saving throws. Before that it's a speed reduction and disadvantage on all ability checks. Unless your BBEG is a grappler or a monk, it takes three rounds and some solid luck before this starts to effect combat. But I can see uses for interrogation, tracking, or even setting a combat up.


    Slip the Net
    At 13th level, you can cast the spells gaseous form and spider climb on yourself by expending three rogue Hit Dice without requiring any components or your concentration. Dismissing a spell you cast this way requires your action. Additionally, as long as you're conscious, you can expend two rogue Hit Dice and end one of the following conditions on yourself: grappled, restrained, or paralyzed on your turn (no action required). If you do, you can't take actions or reactions until the beginning of your next turn.

    Spoiler: Design Notes
    Show
    Thanks to Ilerien for the great feedback!


    Blood Is My Strength
    At 17th level, you can swap hit point pools. Choose any two living creatures you can see, including yourself. You must expend ten Hit Dice which forces both creatures to make a Constitution saving throw against your sanguinary DC. If you are one of the creatures, you do not need to make a saving throw. If both creatures fail, they swap hit point totals. If this would bring one creature above their maximum hit points, they instead gain the difference as temporary hit points. Once you use this feature, you must complete a long rest to use it again.
    Last edited by Sparky McDibben; 2021-05-18 at 09:21 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Bulgaria
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: The Sanguinary

    I have a sorcerer subclass with pretty much the same vampiric schtick (stealing secrets from blood in particular, inspired by Seanan McGuire's October Daye series) in my stash. Though yours is more elegant, tying everything to sneak attack and hit dice. :)
    DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity score
    I suppose you meant Dexterity modifier. Minor wording optimization: I'd give the formula to calculate DC of this class' features once in the description and refer to it later, like everything refers to spell DC in case of spellcasting classes' features.
    Also, I understand you don't want to make it MAD, but dexterity doesn't quite feel like a right ability here from the story perspective. Maybe base it on constitution?
    At 3rd level, you can steal some of your opponent's strength away to amplify your own. When you hit a living creature with a Sneak Attack using a melee weapon attack, choose one of the following effects:
    Doesn't quite pass the "bag of rats" test. I recommend limiting it in some way. Maybe limit it to victims of CR 1+ except What Blood Can Tell?
    Memories in Their Veins. Choose one skill. For 1 minute, you have advantage and the target has disadvantage on checks with the chosen skill.
    Does it stack? Can you choose a different skill each time? Would be a viable option to soften a boss for grappling if one can debuff both athletics and acrobatics.
    Sneak attack rider effects synergize extremely well with "command" abilities that allow to spend a reaction to attack (e.g. battle master's commander's strike).
    At 9th level, whenever you hit a living creature with a Sneak Attack using a melee weapon, you can spend two Hit Dice to force the creature to make a Constitution saving throw with a DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity score. If it fails, it takes one level of exhaustion. In addition, spending so long in shadow has sharpened your senses - you gain darkvision out to a range of 60 feet. If you already have darkvision from your race, its range increases by 30 feet.
    Exhaustion is fine, I think, even taking into account those commander's strikes. High Constitution saves are common and bosses have legendary resistance.
    What I don't like is how it overlaps with 3rd level Memories in Their Veins option: one successful application of this one renders the debuff part moot. Maybe change Memories in Their Veins to some statblock-revealing ability that lets you have advantage on checks (or saves) involving the target's highest ability score (or saving throw bonus)?
    This still feels off to me - anybody got any ideas for this?
    Both are good spells for a rogue to have and thematic to the subclass. I think "slipping from death" is already partially covered by healing and the advantage on death saves.
    I'd change the wording:
    You can cast spider climb or gaseous form on yourself by expending four rogue Hit Dice without requiring any components or your concentration. Dismissing a spell you cast this way requires your action.
    Additionally, as long as you're conscious, you can expend two rogue Hit Dice and end one of the following conditions on yourself: grappled, restrained, paralyzed on your turn (no action required). If you do, you can't take actions or reactions until the beginning of your next turn.
    Blood Is My Strength
    At 17th level, you can swap hit point pools. Choose any two living creatures you can see, including yourself. You must expend ten Hit Dice which forces both creatures to make a Constitution saving throw with a DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity score. If you are one of the creatures, you do not need to make a saving throw. If both creatures fail, they swap hit point totals. If this would bring one creature above their maximum hit points, they instead gain the difference as temporary hit points. Once you use this feature, you must complete a long rest to use it again
    You never said what action type is requires.
    Honestly, I can't quite figure if it's useless or broken. :D
    Last edited by Ilerien; 2021-05-16 at 03:01 AM.
    My homebrew. Feel free to use!


  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: The Sanguinary

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilerien View Post
    I suppose you meant Dexterity modifier. Minor wording optimization: I'd give the formula to calculate DC of this class' features once in the description and refer to it later, like everything refers to spell DC in case of spellcasting classes' features.
    Also, I understand you don't want to make it MAD, but dexterity doesn't quite feel like a right ability here from the story perspective. Maybe base it on constitution?
    Thank you for these - good catches! I'm actually torn between using Constitution and Charisma for the base skill for all these abilities. Using Charisma makes it effectively MAD (you need Dexterity, Charisma, and Con for the hit points). Using Constitution gives you a beefy rogue, but also synergizes with the healing in level 3 - not sure which one I want here. Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilerien View Post
    Doesn't quite pass the "bag of rats" test. I recommend limiting it in some way. Maybe limit it to victims of CR 1+ except What Blood Can Tell?
    I figured the "hostile" verbiage, renders the rats a non-viable target. Am I wrong there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilerien View Post
    What I don't like is how it overlaps with 3rd level Memories in Their Veins option: one successful application of this one renders the debuff part moot. Maybe change Memories in Their Veins to some statblock-revealing ability that lets you have advantage on checks (or saves) involving the target's highest ability score (or saving throw bonus)?
    So I hear what you're saying here, and you're quite right. However, I see a six-level gap between the two abilities, which is why I wasn't as concerned about this. But, you still have a good point. What about something like this to replace Memories in Their Veins:

    Sap The Will. If the target fails a Wisdom saving throw, you break their will to resist you. The target is charmed by you, remains in place, and takes no actions. This effect lasts for 1 minute, but the target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.

    Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilerien View Post
    I'd change the wording:
    You can cast spider climb or gaseous form on yourself by expending four rogue Hit Dice without requiring any components or your concentration. Dismissing a spell you cast this way requires your action.
    Additionally, as long as you're conscious, you can expend two rogue Hit Dice and end one of the following conditions on yourself: grappled, restrained, paralyzed on your turn (no action required). If you do, you can't take actions or reactions until the beginning of your next turn.
    That is outstandingly useful. Thank you so much!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilerien View Post
    You never said what action type is requires. Honestly, I can't quite figure if it's useless or broken. :D
    Oh snap - good catch! I figure this is one of those things that'll require playtesting to know for sure.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Bulgaria
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: The Sanguinary

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    Thank you for these - good catches! I'm actually torn between using Constitution and Charisma for the base skill for all these abilities. Using Charisma makes it effectively MAD (you need Dexterity, Charisma, and Con for the hit points). Using Constitution gives you a beefy rogue, but also synergizes with the healing in level 3 - not sure which one I want here. Thoughts?
    Constitution makes more sense from the game mechanics perspective, in my opinion. Charisma might make a bit more sense from the story perspective, but since it delivers these effects with a gross physical attack, constitution is still excusable.
    I figured the "hostile" verbiage, renders the rats a non-viable target. Am I wrong there?
    It can be argued rats you keep in the bag might be very unhappy with you. :D I think this wording has the potential to create issues at the table if a player attempts some sort of "bag of rats" scenario.
    So I hear what you're saying here, and you're quite right. However, I see a six-level gap between the two abilities, which is why I wasn't as concerned about this. But, you still have a good point. What about something like this to replace Memories in Their Veins:

    Sap The Will. If the target fails a Wisdom saving throw, you break their will to resist you. The target is charmed by you, remains in place, and takes no actions. This effect lasts for 1 minute, but the target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.

    Thoughts?
    Massively overpowered for an effect riding sneak attack without any other limits. I get the reference to a vampire's charm ability, but still... Either should eat a hit die and end automatically, or apply some sort of weaker debuff. Maybe look at Mind Sliver cantrip from Tasha's? Bestow a negative die to the next attack or save.
    That is outstandingly useful. Thank you so much
    Glad to help! :) Might even want to move spider climb to lower level and assign lower hit dice cost: it's a lower-level spell than gaseous form anyway, and this way your rogue's usefulness during exploration would be boosted gradually. But it's up to you. :)
    Oh snap - good catch! I figure this is one of those things that'll require playtesting to know for sure.
    It will for sure. ;)
    My guess is it can be an encounter-ending power if this rogue gets themselves near death and then uses this on that ancient dragon the party is fighting, assuming it has burned its legendary resistance already. I don't see much value in swapping HP with a party member, I don't know, some sort of a beefy summoned creature perhaps? Can probably serve as emergency healing for a nearly-downed ally.
    How overt would be a use of this power out of combat, BTW?
    All in all, it's a hard to evaluate ability. Registers on my wtf radar, so to speak. :D
    Last edited by Ilerien; 2021-05-17 at 12:11 PM.
    My homebrew. Feel free to use!


  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: The Sanguinary

    Thanks Ilerien - I've adjusted a few things for your feedback; I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    sandmote's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    US
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: The Sanguinary

    If it isn't an issue for another person to comment, I have few notes. Because, conceptually, this looks really fun to play.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    spend one Hit Die and choose one of the following effects:
    Just to check, are the PC is gaining the hit points from spending this die? Dwarven Fortitude fortitude specifies this, for example. If they don't, Red Harvest is only worth trying on a crit (and probably not even then) because when it isn't a crit you'd be spending 1 hit die to gamble to get 1 hit die back at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    Personally, as a DM, I like having a lot of ways to deliver scenario hooks and information. That's why this is here - I want this player to be able to engage with multiple pillars of play, lead the party towards multiple scenarios, and just have some worldbuilding fun.
    I'd also note that if the target doesn't have a story relevant secret, you could just make up something about who they're fears, ambitions, jealousies, or loves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    At 13th level, you can cast the spells gaseous form and spider climb on yourself by expending three rogue Hit Dice without requiring any components or your concentration. Dismissing a spell you cast this way requires your action.
    I fail to see why these would use hit dice. I like that the previous abilities do, because it feels vampiric. But you could probably just grant these without needing the spend a resource and be fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    At 17th level, you can swap hit point pools. Choose any two living creatures you can see, including yourself. You must expend ten Hit Dice which forces both creatures to make a Constitution saving throw against your sanguinary DC. If you are one of the creatures, you do not need to make a saving throw. If both creatures fail, they swap hit point totals. If this would bring one creature above their maximum hit points, they instead gain the difference as temporary hit points. Once you use this feature, you must complete a long rest to use it again.
    My initial thought was panic, because if the party can waste the tarrasque's legendary saves and the wizard's familiar can choose to fail its save the tarrasque needs a 9 or better on the save or it is instantly reduced to 1 hit point. On the other hand, that's not worse than some of the nonsense full casters can get up to, so that panic might not be warranted.
    Last edited by sandmote; 2021-05-31 at 01:57 AM. Reason: saw typos after hitting post

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Roguish Archetype: The Sanguinary

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    Just to check, are the PC is gaining the hit points from spending this die? Dwarven Fortitude fortitude specifies this, for example. If they don't, Red Harvest is only worth trying on a crit (and probably not even then) because when it isn't a crit you'd be spending 1 hit die to gamble to get 1 hit die back at best.
    Hey, not a problem and I'm always glad to get feedback! See the last line in the ability for details. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    I fail to see why these would use hit dice. I like that the previous abilities do, because it feels vampiric. But you could probably just grant these without needing the spend a resource and be fine.
    The way I'm thinking about it, the sanguinary has to use resources to power these abilities because they aren't a full-fledged vampire, and thus have to "burn blood" (to use a VtM phrase) to power them.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    My initial thought was panic, because if the party can waste the tarrasque's legendary saves and the wizard's familiar can choose to fail its save the tarrasque needs a 9 or better on the save or it is instantly reduced to 1 hit point. On the other hand, that's not worse than some of the nonsense full casters can get up to, so that panic might not be warranted.
    I mean, think about how much setup that costs the party, too. They have to survive for at least three rounds in range of a tarrasque, including the beast's legendary actions and spell-turning, and then hope like hell they get lucky. Sounds like plenty of risk for the payoff to me! :D
    Last edited by Sparky McDibben; 2021-05-31 at 01:19 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •