Theoretical optimisation question - A way to get hands as a non-humanoid?

[Eldariel]

So I was thinking about how few high Dex forms truly exist for shapechanging purposes. The only forms with significantly above 20 Dex (enough to get bonus) that's readily accessible (in addition to Will-O'-Wisp and Quickling, which aren't very exciting due to just being rather weak) seem to be Phoenix and Leviathan, but of course, the reason you want Dex is to attack with a bow and Phoenix and Leviathan both are poorly equipped to do so. So I was thinking, is there any way to shift shape enough to get hands without losing the Dex of the form? Change Shape ability of some sort would obviously do it but is there a way to access Change Shape and Phoenix's or Leviathan's stats, or something such? I'm thinking of Alter Self...to grow Claws, maybe? Claws are better for holding weapons than Talons, right? Of course there are other high Dex options but they seem to invariably be unique creatures and thus outside what the shapeshifting spells can give you.

[Damon_Tor]

The Astral Self monk's ability to create spectral arms for itself isn't reliant on the monk actually having arms of their own.

Edit: it's also possible that the prosthetic limb magic item (which can be an artificer infusion) might remain as a humanoid arm even when you change shapes, but that's not very clear.

[Man_Over_Game]

Could also talk to your DM about how "spectral" hands function, for the sake of Arcane Trickster's Mage Hand or Telekinesis. As a DM, I would allow someone to manipulate a weapon using one of these mechanics, as long as you follow normal weapon rules (such as reach).

Makes me think of an armless Astral Self Monk with Telekinesis as a villain. "They tried to cripple me. Oh, how wrong they were..." or something like that. That'd be pretty dope.

[quindraco]

Bear in mind all monsters have access to the Monk trick with their natural weapons, which is why when you look at a creature like the Phoenix, all of them use DEX for hit and damage - I don't think 5E has an actual monster in it (i.e. I'm not counting weapon-wielders, like humanoids or armed giants) that uses the lower of its STR and DEX modifiers to hit and damage. That's why they usually artificially raise AC with natural armor or just by getting the rules wrong, like with that fire giant that dual wields shields.

I don't know how you're planning on changing shape into these creatures, but I would look askance at anyone claiming a Leviathan can't form any body shape it wants, including hands. Fire, Air, and Water elementals are fluids, so unless their body shape is constrained artificially - such as when they're chained into a construct or an invisible stalker or what have you - they should be able to shape themselves into any continuous shape they want, including hands. Leviathans are just water elementals dialed up to 11.

[Dork_Forge]

That's why they usually artificially raise AC with natural armor or just by getting the rules wrong, like with that fire giant that dual wields shields.

The Fire Giant Dreadnought's AC is 21 (plate, shields), if the rules were being incorrectly applied then it would be 22. It's just a case of the monster isn't following the PC rules, because they don't have to. If it's that it should be AC 22, nothing is to say that the shields being used are the same as the pc available shield, or that the +3 is just because shields have diminishing returns.

[Man_Over_Game]

The Fire Giant Dreadnought's AC is 21 (plate, shields), if the rules were being incorrectly applied then it would be 22. It's just a case of the monster isn't following the PC rules, because they don't have to. If it's that it should be AC 22, nothing is to say that the shields being used are the same as the pc available shield, or that the +3 is just because shields have diminishing returns.

TBF, that's exactly how I'd rule it as a DM. If I had to make a speed run of a dual-shield homebrew (like some kind of charging tank Barbarian or something), that would explicitly be a rule I'd apply.

[Damon_Tor]

TBF, that's exactly how I'd rule it as a DM. If I had to make a speed run of a dual-shield homebrew (like some kind of charging tank Barbarian or something), that would explicitly be a rule I'd apply.

In 4e there was a paragon path (effectively a prestige class but not not exactly) that allowed for dual-wielding shields. IIRC, the second shield only gave you +1 AC. Which makes perfect sense because both shields' area of protection overlaps in the front, so your actual increase in blocking ability doesn't actually double because too much of the area between them is redundant.

[Man_Over_Game]

In 4e there was a paragon path (effectively a prestige class but not not exactly) that allowed for dual-wielding shields. IIRC, the second shield only gave you +1 AC. Which makes perfect sense because both shields' area of protection overlaps in the front, so your actual increase in blocking ability doesn't actually double because too much of the area between them is redundant.

It also makes sense because higher AC actually scales quadratically. You get more value from AC the higher it already is.

For instance, if an enemy only had a 15% chance to hit, and you reduce it down to 10%, you essentially reduced that enemy's total DPR by 1/3. Compare that to 20% to 15%, and you'll notice that you reduced their DPR by 1/4.

So, to me, it makes sense that increasing your AC though one source is something that should be done sparingly.