OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Fyraltari]

Love everything on this page. Especially Roy branching out and Durkon needing a moment to solve global inequality.

[UnintensifiedFa]

Couldn't have come at a better time, we were just about to run out of pages on the last discussion thread.

Very much like that Durkon is actively thinking of a solution, and that Roy also recognizes this as both a problem (as an injustice) and a potential route to the solution, (by negotiating with redcloak).

[Cikomyr2]

I love you Rich for rising and discussing these big questions.

I know you don't usually answer questions in these threads, but was this planned from the (somewhat) beginning, or have you managed to organically merge this type of discussion to your story because it happened to already have pre-existing themes that fitted this perfectly?

[Worldsong]

Well, there we have it, the heroic solution is to try and fix the inequality, especially if it seems to be connected to saving the world.

[Ivrytwr]

The absence of a solution has never stopped us before!
Another good beard scratcher of a conundrum.
Thanks Giant!

[Fyraltari]

Well, there we have it, the heroic solution is to try and fix the inequality, especially if it seems to be connected to saving the world.

[StragaSevera]

The problem, as I said earlier, is not about "is it morally right or wrong to help goblins" - all normal people would agree on that.
The problem is - is it morally right to focus on just the goblin's problems? Because, I guarantee you, a lot of other people got the bad lands too - look at humans and lizardfolk on the Western continent, for example.

If heroes try to solve only the "goblin land inequality" problem, and not the "all-people land inequality", then... the moral of the story kinda becomes "if you want your problems to be solved, you need to take the world hostage, and if you do not make such an evil act and just try to survive yourself, then heroes will never think about helping you".

So, I would really like if this comic will raise this problem too - but I feel that it will not, and this feeling makes me sad.

[Ferrick]

I love you Rich for rising and discussing these big questions.

I know you don't usually answer questions in these threads, but was this planned from the (somewhat) beginning, or have you managed to organically merge this type of discussion to your story because it happened to already have pre-existing themes that fitted this perfectly?

That might be a question for the next q&a

[dancrilis]

Dubious about it all - I do wonder if anyone in The Order has any serious ranks in 'Knowledge: History' to know that:

Spoiler: SOD

Show

The goblin starting position did not stop them creating the greatest military force the north had ever seen which even after its leader was assassinated still needed three races (humans, elves and dwarves) to join together to stop it.

Because as the goblin starting position allowed for that I don't think that current goblin position can be blamed on the gods giving them a bad starting hand.

[StragaSevera]

Dubious about it all - I do wonder if anyone in The Order has any serious ranks in 'Knowledge: History' to know that:

Spoiler: SOD

Show

The goblin starting position did not stop them creating the greatest military force the north had ever seen which even after its leader was assassinated still needed three races (humans, elves and dwarves) to join together to stop it.

Because as the goblin starting position allowed for that I don't think that current goblin position can be blamed on the gods giving them a bad starting hand.

Interesting idea that ties into my other concern - if we give goblins a better starting position, we better use some peacekeeping forces with this humanitarian aid to prevent this influx of resources to be used to build a second force like that.

[Ferrick]

Also made respect to the Giant for somehow creating an entirely new system of classist injustice that is clear enough that most could agree with it but separate enough from reality to not make people's personal lives blind them to it? That's not a simple trying to do damn.

[Peelee]

"That" and "the" both being used as "tha" made panel 3 a bit wonky to read.

[pendell]

Rich Burlew, if you're reading this, the last panel has Durkon asking "Can a dwarf get a minute to solve worldwide generational inquality?"

I think that's a spelling error, and I think it's important because you could mean either "inequity" or "inequality", and they are two different concepts. "Equality" means "everyone gets treated exactly the same". "Equity" means "we recognize that not everyone starts at the same starting line, and make allowances for the disadvantaged."

"Equality" means a chess grandmaster and an amateur sit down at the same board and play a game with the same starting conditions. "Equity" means the grandmaster spots the amateur a piece or two in order to give the amateur a fighting chance and make the game sporting.

There are two different ideas with very different solutions. Having equity doesn't necessarily mean having equality and vice versa. So it's important to know exactly what problem Durkon is trying to solve here.

ETA: Less important, but "Doesn't" in panel 6 has two apostrophes. That's a typo.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Reboot]

1234 hype!

Also made respect to the Giant for somehow creating an entirely new system of classist injustice that is clear enough that most could agree with it but separate enough from reality to not make people's personal lives blind them to it? That's not a simple trying to do damn.

Not so sure about that. After all, the last strip's thread got locked over discussing this. Twice.

[greenfunkman]

So the offer will be... the empty planet in the rift?

[Worldsong]

So the offer will be... the empty planet in the rift?

The one with the soul-destroying abomination?

[Sir_Norbert]

I think that's a spelling error, and I think it's important because you could mean either "inequity" or "inequality", and they are two different concepts. "Equality" means "everyone gets treated exactly the same". "Equity" means "we recognize that not everyone starts at the same starting line, and make allowances for the disadvantaged."

Those are different concepts, sure, but it's not at all universal that "equality" can only mean the first one.

[Fyraltari]

"if you want your problems to be solved, you need to take the world hostage, and if you do not make such an evil act and just try to survive yourself, then heroes will never think about helping you".

Uh, no? This problem would have need to be adressed regardless of Redcloak's actions. Thor wants the dark One's help because of the Snarlproblem not because of anything the Dark One or his church did. Also we've had Oona and the Monster in the Dark pointing out that Redcloak's agenda isn't even focused on all goblinoids, we have Roy pointing out that the goblins' situation isn't "the most pressing global problem" this very comic and we've seen prejudice against orcs, kobolds, trolls and even a ghost taking the non-online books into account. I'm pretty sure that whatever solution is put forth, it won't just be a goblin/human thing.

My reading of the whole Redclaok situation is that when you mistreat entire groups like that, you will end up with extremists willing to kill inordinate amount of people to get some "retribution". That's part of the problem.

Dubious about it all - I do wonder if anyone in The Order has any serious ranks in 'Knowledge: History' to know that:

Spoiler: SOD

Show

The goblin starting position did not stop them creating the greatest military force the north had ever seen which even after its leader was assassinated still needed three races (humans, elves and dwarves) to join together to stop it.

Because as the goblin starting position allowed for that I don't think that current goblin position can be blamed on the gods giving them a bad starting hand.

Assuming the "greatest military foce the nortern lands have ever seen" wasn't just Redcloak fanboying over his deity-senpai, having a largest army than everybody else doesn't translate to being a wealthier group than the others, far from it. Like we know the humans are divided into multiple nations so it's hardly a surprise a union of all the goblins in the north leads to a biggest army any human nation have. Especially if a greater portion of the goblinoid population had to become soldiers/warriors to defend their tribes.

[Czhorat]

The problem, as I said earlier, is not about "is it morally right or wrong to help goblins" - all normal people would agree on that.
The problem is - is it morally right to focus on just the goblin's problems? Because, I guarantee you, a lot of other people got the bad lands too - look at humans and lizardfolk on the Western continent, for example.

If heroes try to solve only the "goblin land inequality" problem, and not the "all-people land inequality", then... the moral of the story kinda becomes "if you want your problems to be solved, you need to take the world hostage, and if you do not make such an evil act and just try to survive yourself, then heroes will never think about helping you".

So, I would really like if this comic will raise this problem too - but I feel that it will not, and this feeling makes me sad.

This framing feels a bit "all lives matter" to me. The goblins are in the situation where they are - and made an alliance with an evil lich - because of the inequities they've faced since literally the creation of the world.

Are there others who suffer? Almost certainly. Those problems can be faced as well. At present, the OOTS is in a conflict with the goblins - and one in which they've only very recently even begun to try to understand their antagonists.

[Dragonus45]

Dubious about it all - I do wonder if anyone in The Order has any serious ranks in 'Knowledge: History' to know that:

Spoiler: SOD

Show

The goblin starting position did not stop them creating the greatest military force the north had ever seen which even after its leader was assassinated still needed three races (humans, elves and dwarves) to join together to stop it.

Because as the goblin starting position allowed for that I don't think that current goblin position can be blamed on the gods giving them a bad starting hand.

We still need to know more about the Dark ones backstory to be able to really put all this together but pretty much that yeah. The various Goblinoid races seemed to be getting by just fine with their own functioning nation states and armies, they just seem to be stuck in in a forever war in a way a lot of the other "monstrous" races haven't been shown to be and I am betting TDO will be the answer there. Sure not everything turns out perfectly equal all the time, but equality of outcome is a myth and equity is a lie.


This strip though, this one finally put to words what it is that is sticking in my craw. "Don't we need to take responsibility for our part in a bad setup." No, because you have no responsibility there, as near as I can tell even in tis fantasy universe no one asks to be born and while it's certainly laudable and clearly Good for someone who was for example born to noble parents and rich compared to someone born in a small farming village, no one has a responsibility or obligation to anyone to just go and give them their property.

[Fyraltari]

So the offer will be... the empty planet in the rift?

I really doubt the answer to "how do we deal with disenfranchised people?" the comic is going to put forth is "let's send them to a spare planet so we don't have to."

[Worldsong]

My reading of the whole Redclaok situation is that when you mistreat entire groups like that, you will end up with extremists willing to kill inordinate amount of people to get some "retribution". That's part of the problem.

And then the problem becomes self-sustaining because people begin to oppose the idea of helping the mistreated group because they don't want to feel like the extremists should be rewarded for their immoral actions.

I really doubt the answer to "how do we deal with disenfranchised people?" the comic is going to put forth is "let's send them to a spare planet so down't have to."

Yeah, I doubt Rich's answer to systematic discrimination will be segregation.

[hamishspence]

I like the back-and-forth between Roy and Durkon here.

[ShinigamiKenji]

This one strikes very close to our own world... Props to The Giant for that.

[UnintensifiedFa]

Assuming the "greatest military foce the nortern lands have ever seen" wasn't just Redcloak fanboying over his deity-senpai, having a largest army than everybody else doesn't translate to being a wealthier group than the others, far from it. Like we know the humans are divided into multiple nations so it's hardly a surprise a union of all the goblins in the north leads to a biggest army any human nation have. Especially if a greater portion of the goblinoid population had to become soldiers/warriors to defend their tribes.

Thank you for this. I was trying to find a good way to express this but you've hit what I wanted to say right on the nose.

The Goblins assembling massive armies is not an indicator that they're somehow "Better Off".

The Dark One does not indicate that the Goblins have "Solved' their problems now that they have a god, he's a symptom of their inequalities.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

It's great that the goblins have a motivation that goes beyond them being evil monsters.

And it's also great that all of this makes sense in the context of how D&D worlds are constructed, with large numbers of sentient beings existing as nothing more than loot and XP sources.

OOTS from the beginning was a send up of D&D (weapon shrinkage?), so there was always the risk of the drama and stakes clashing with the parodic and lighthearted aspects. I won't name names but I've seen a few stories suffer from exactly that. IMHO so far OOTS has done well enough in maintaining the balance and now we seem to be getting (closer) to the climax.

Not sure if I would have gone with the "gods gave them a bad hand" and "cosmic soul farm" approach myself, seems a little meta, but hey it's Rich's story and it does explain the way of things.

[Dion]

I feel like he’s answering some of the noisiest voices in the forums.

Which is great, but I’m not entirely convinced that the noisiest voices in the forum are arguing about what’s in the actual comic.

[UnintensifiedFa]

I feel like he’s answering some of the noisiest voices in the forums.

Which is great, but I’m not entirely convinced that the noisiest voices in the forum are arguing about what’s in the actual comic.

In my experience, the noisiest voices often have the views most counter to the messages Rich is trying to convey. I think he "answers" them because he wants the work to be interpreted the way he intends it, and they're bringing up points of view that run counter to this. I don't think he's deliberately answering them either, I believe he's said that he doesn't visit these discussion threads too often, and he hardly uses them to construct his comic/story. I think the "answering" is a product of Rich trying to drive home his point with low levels of ambiguity, and the loudest voices are the ones whose views are grounded in those ambiguities that Rich intends to solve. (If that makes sense).

[StragaSevera]

This framing feels a bit "all lives matter" to me. The goblins are in the situation where they are - and made an alliance with an evil lich - because of the inequities they've faced since literally the creation of the world.

Are there others who suffer? Almost certainly. Those problems can be faced as well. At present, the OOTS is in a conflict with the goblins - and one in which they've only very recently even begun to try to understand their antagonists.

As I recall, your "framing" reference is prohibited by the rules of the forum, so I would not answer to it.

Yes, that's the point. There are people who suffer from bad lands situation, who are not goblins - and we literally had them in the comics as the people who live in the southern part of the Western Continent.
If the heroes will not think about them and concentrate only on goblins, just because the Free City of Doom did not manage to find a Doomsday artifact of significant enough scale for blackmail, then... it will be very sad.

Of course, to stop the whole planet from being destoyed or conquered by a mad lich you MAY need to do something with the goblins now - but, when the crisis is over, if heroes will not think about other bad lands and people who live there (and I have a feeling that they will not, because not even once in this comics a character compared a goblins situation to the westerners situation) - then it will become a twisted aesop.