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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Severance View Post
    Claiming that refusing to act to help the goblins is just "passing the bucket" was just another odious way of pinning blame on anyone who doesn't. I found that detestable.
    I'm very curious, would you mind saying what you think about the desert island scenario I described in my last post?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    I'm pretty sure the point of Roy & Durkon's discussion was less "it's everyone's fault and therefore anyone who doesn't help is a Bad Person" and more "I consider myself Lawful Good, so 'someone else will fix it' isn't enough for me, personally, to sleep at night."
    I hope. But Durkon's casual throwing of all races into the guilt-bin doesn't bode well for that interpretation IMHO.
    And it's a shame because I really liked the character up until he went to dialogue with Redcloak.

  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CountDVB View Post
    Because the gods aren't one homogenous group. They come in a variety of moral alignments and opinions, divdied already into three territories. Tiamat only cares about the chromatic dragons and little else while Fenris basically ditched his creations because his idea didn't work.

    Odin made it clear regarding there are various arrangements so the gods just don't bicker and quarrel and create another Snarl. Good deities feeling bad doesn't mean much if everyone else really doesn't.
    Yep. The gods haven't fixed this problem because the gods only act together when a majority agrees, and most of them don't care.

    The fact is what makes characters like Roy, Durkon and the other good is that they go beyond the minimum and beyond what is just needed. That selflessness and willingness to try and be proactive is what makes them, well, good. I heard someone say that the Good, Neutral and Evil axis could be defined as "moral, amoral and immoral" respectively.

    There are no end to arguments people will make to justify why something isn't their fault and why it isn't in their hands, but our heroes aren't like that. As noted, someone has to be willing to be responsible and do something about it instead of saying "not my fault so I don't have to do anything to fix it."
    Yes! Roy and Durkon will do what they can for the goblins not because it's in any way their fault that goblins are poor, but because they are good people who don't like seeing anyone bullied if they can help. In a word: heroes.

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Severance View Post
    I hope. But Durkon's casual throwing of all races into the guilt-bin doesn't bode well for that interpretation IMHO.
    And it's a shame because I really liked the character up until he went to dialogue with Redcloak.
    I'm fairly certain you'll like him again. Give it a few months and these pages will be part of a larger plot arc where this discussion has paid off in a less didactic talky way, rather than something we all obsess over and pick apart each week while waiting for Serini to finally attack.

    Especially if the coming pages involve Durkon's hammer smashing Redcloak in the face (again), which would be very nice.
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-05-17 at 03:13 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Severance View Post
    Yes but that's still a choice. Paladins have a class-based obligation to rectify injustice, they're the ones with a "bucket" to pass.
    Claiming that refusing to act to help the goblins is just "passing the bucket" was just another odious way of pinning blame on anyone who doesn't. I found that detestable.
    Paladins have a class-based obligation to not perform injustice. Failing to rectify injustice would be an edge case. "A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities" -- at what point failure to act is deemed to be an act in itself can be open to interpretation.

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Severance View Post
    I hope. But Durkon's casual throwing of all races into the guilt-bin doesn't bode well for that interpretation IMHO.
    And it's a shame because I really liked the character up until he went to dialogue with Redcloak.
    Well, when it comes to Lawful folk, they do like at it from a societal level unlike Chaotic folk. It does take a bunch of individuals to convice people to do or not do something as a collective, but negligance or willful ignorance isn't exactly a good thing.

    Moral obligations and duty are aspects of a society. Alot of people take stuff for granted and don't consider the less fortunate. It could be argued it is bad that people would rather avoid confronting or maintain blindness to problems. But that's not what folk like Durkon or Roy do.

  7. - Top - End - #277

    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pyrefiend View Post
    I'm very curious, would you mind saying what you think about the desert island scenario I described in my last post?
    I don't believe it applies to the discussion a lot since it's about helping a third-party entire race while your example was strictly a 2-men scenario, but sure:

    In general yes, the guy with more food should theoretically help the guy with less IF HE WANTS TO, but if he doesn't that doesn't automatically mean he's a bad person. If the other person tries taking said food by force the first has all the right to defend himself even if his resource pool is bigger, or to deny him food afterwards for example.
    Or maybe sharing his food with him could mean the death of both while waiting for rescue in their small islands.

    Basically inequality is not automatically synonymous with injustice nor is an act that preserves said state of inequality automatically wrong.

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CountDVB View Post
    Roy: I'll be the first to admit that I got into this quest for all the wrong reasons, but none of that matters now. You're a threat to the entire world, not just me and my family. But like it or not, you're still MY responsibility. Because I'm the only one here who's willing to be responsible. If I don't beat you here and now, then soon this screwed-up nonsensical world won't exist anymore. You might not be out to destroy the physical planet, but living under the heel of a walking villain cliché like you will destroy its soul.There won't be any place left for introverted dwarves. Or androgynous elves. Or idiotic bards or greedy rogues... or sexy sylphs. Or hell, even raging narcissistic paladins.Bloodthirsty halflings will probably get along fine, though. So, in summary, it's a dirty job, but some PC has to do it. Enough with the speeches. Let's get down to brass tacks.

    The fact is what makes characters like Roy, Durkon and the other good is that they go beyond the minimum and beyond what is just needed.
    Haven't read the rest of the thread, but it strikes me how much better written that speech is than the current strip. It makes being good feel energetic and positive. This strip makes it feel self-flagellating and strangely self-centered. Notice the difference: despite being a "heroic monologue", Roy is actually self-effacing about his part to play. But his dialogue with Durkon today is all about navel-gazing over their own moral status and share of culpability. Why does that even matter? Someone who's truly altruistic doesn't need to be culpable for something to want to fix it, while those who aren't altruistic couldn't care less about an abstract moral burden.
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  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Haven't read the rest of the thread, but it strikes me how much better written that speech is than the current strip. It makes being good feel energetic and positive. This strip makes it feel self-flagellating and strangely self-centered. Notice the difference: despite being a "heroic monologue", Roy is actually self-effacing about his part to play. But his dialogue with Durkon today is all about navel-gazing over their own moral status and share of culpability. Why does that even matter? Someone who's truly altruistic doesn't need to be culpable for something to want to fix it, while those who aren't altruistic couldn't care less about an abstract moral burden.
    Probably because this situation is trickier, and because it involves recognizing something they'd overlooked before.

    Xykon was a Bad Dude when Roy fought him at Azure City, but he was just a bad dude. The danger was that he was scary and powerful and could toast Roy very easily (and did). This current situation, meanwhile, isn't a problem you can just hit until it stops. It's going require change on a different level. It will take some thinking through.

    And honestly, while I don't read today's strip as "self-flaggelation" like you do, I think your observation gets across an important point: Good doesn't always feel good. Sometimes being Good is a power fantasy, complete with lens flares. And other times being Good means recognizing when something is wrong and making it right won't be glamorous; it will be hard and messy.
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-05-17 at 03:27 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #280
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Haven't read the rest of the thread, but it strikes me how much better written that speech is than the current strip. It makes being good feel energetic and positive. This strip makes it feel self-flagellating and strangely self-centered. Notice the difference: despite being a "heroic monologue", Roy is actually self-effacing about his part to play. But his dialogue with Durkon today is all about navel-gazing over their own moral status and share of culpability. Why does that even matter? Someone who's truly altruistic doesn't need to be culpable for something to want to fix it, while those who aren't altruistic couldn't care less about an abstract moral burden.
    Because they're Lawful Good. Taking down a maniac like Xykon is relatively straightforward, but fixing societal problems is a lot more complicated, especially if it involves confronting your own past beliefs, potential negligance and so on. Hence the Lawful part, focusing on societal aspects.

    Plus, Roy admits he got into the quest for the wrong reasons, being selfish about it.

    I do recall what Durkon said about how realizing how bad you been makes you feel bad, hence why Evil folk double down on their bad rather than confront what they did or haven't done. Or as Belkar put it, "cowards who can't handle hardcore introspection."

    Facing guilt and dealing with it is part of character development.

  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Severance View Post
    I don't believe it applies to the discussion a lot since it's about helping a third-party entire race while your example was strictly a 2-men scenario, but sure:

    In general yes, the guy with more food should theoretically help the guy with less IF HE WANTS TO, but if he doesn't that doesn't automatically mean he's a bad person. If the other person tries taking said food by force the first has all the right to defend himself even if his resource pool is bigger, or to deny him food afterwards for example.
    Or maybe sharing his food with him could mean the death of both while waiting for rescue in their small islands.

    Basically inequality is not automatically synonymous with injustice nor is an act that preserves said state of inequality automatically wrong.
    Negligance isn't typically blameless though. “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" is a saying that comes to mind by Burke. Granted, the original saying was: “Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”
    Last edited by CountDVB; 2021-05-17 at 03:29 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #282

    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    I'm fairly certain you'll like him again. Give it a few months and these pages will be part of a larger plot arc where this discussion has paid off in a less didactic talky way, rather than something we all obsess over and pick apart each week while waiting for Serini to finally attack.

    Especially if the coming pages involve Durkon's hammer smashing Redcloak in the face (again), which would be very nice.
    Didactic talky way... yeah that's how I feel. Sorry about that, it's just the sense I got from all this.

  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain: No.
    Well, now I want to put this in my sig.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-05-17 at 03:33 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #284
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Severance View Post
    I don't believe it applies to the discussion a lot since it's about helping a third-party entire race while your example was strictly a 2-men scenario
    Why is this a relevant disanalogy? I mean, there are practical concerns that come up in the case of trying to help all the goblins. But the underlying moral issue seems to be the same.

    In general yes, the guy with more food should theoretically help the guy with less IF HE WANTS TO
    It's not really clear what this means. Normally, whether or not I want to do something doesn't make a difference to what I should do, in the sense of moral obligation. I'm guessing that what you mean is that it would be a nice thing for him to do, but it's not morally obligatory. If this is right, then we disagree. All else being equal, the person with more is obligated to share.

    if he doesn't that doesn't automatically mean he's a bad person.
    Yeah, maybe. That's consistent with thinking that he's obligated to share. People fail their obligations all the time. That means that we're not saints; it doesn't automatically mean we're bad people.

    If the other person tries taking said food by force the first has all the right to defend himself even if his resource pool is bigger, or to deny him food afterwards for example.
    Maybe. I definitely agree that the person with less can't take from the person with more by any means necessary. There are moral obligations on them, too. But I don't think it would be wrong of them to maybe shove the coconut-hoarder out of the way, grab some coconuts, and run.

    Or maybe sharing his food with him could mean the death of both while waiting for rescue in their small islands.
    Okay, but that's not a feature of the case as I described it. And it's not a feature of the OotS case, either, since there are plenty of human nations which could make concessions to the goblins without condemning themselves to death.

    Basically inequality is not automatically synonymous with injustice nor is an act that preserves said state of inequality automatically wrong.
    No argument there. Inequality = Wrongness is an absurd position to take.
    Last edited by pyrefiend; 2021-05-17 at 03:32 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Given the repetitive theme in this comic about groups using self-righteous ideologies and oppression narratives as an excuse to behave in a destructive manner, (Redcloak, Miko, the paladins before O-Chul,...), it's amusingly ironic that now we've come to {scrubbed}
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-05-17 at 03:41 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Key note: privilege is not a binary yes/no. Think of it as a collection of situational bonuses that can stack with each other.

    Saying someone is privileged we might mean that they have one broadly-applicable bonus, or a bonus relevant to the current discussion, or a lot of bonuses, depending on context.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ploppy View Post
    Given the repetitive theme in this comic about groups using self-righteous ideologies and oppression narratives as an excuse to behave in a destructive manner, (Redcloak, Miko, the paladins before O-Chul,...), it's amusingly ironic that now we've come to {scrub the post, scrub the quote}
    The goblinoids having been screwed over has been a major theme of the comic and the motivation of Redcloak for white a long Time now.

    It looks more that by now, The whole thing is now in people’s faces and forcing them to confront uncomfortable things that they would prefer to rather not think about.

    The Giant has been this point clear before.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-05-17 at 03:42 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Severance View Post
    Didactic talky way... yeah that's how I feel. Sorry about that, it's just the sense I got from all this.
    I think this is something that webcomics in particular suffer from: because they're periodically released rather than as fully-formed compilations, the latest strip lingers in the mind longer than it should.

    I posted about this in another thread and will now arrogantly quote myself:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus
    Gary Larson once talked about a controversial Far Side comic he drew called "Tethercat", where several dogs bat a cat around a tetherball pole. People got mad, and he wondered why, when Tom & Jerry cartoon violence has been on the air for decades. But the thing about Tom & Jerry is that it's transient: you watch Jerry crush Tom with an anvil, and then he walks it off and is back to chasing Jerry thirty seconds later. But if you set down the newspaper with "Tethercat" in it, go for a walk, and come back an hour later, those dogs are still playing Tethercat. There are also some good arguments to be made about punching down vs. punching up, but even in that regard you can argue that Durkon is almost always punching UP! (#shortjokes)
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-05-17 at 03:38 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #289
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    I think this is something that webcomics in particular suffer from: because they're periodically released rather than as fully-formed compilations, the latest strip lingers in the mind longer than it should.

    I posted about this in another thread and will now arrogantly quote myself:
    That and there’s a difference between a mouse vs a cat compared to a cat vs several dogs...

  20. - Top - End - #290
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    What do you mean by reparations when you say this?
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain: No.

    Everyone, please remember that real-world political topics are off limits on this forum. Please keep all political discussion regulated to non-real-world examples. If you want to talk about reparations in the context of the goblins and Azurites, that is fine. But the second it goes into real-world territory, it has crossed the line. The last few threads had to be closed several times, please help us break that streak.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Probably because this situation is trickier, and because it involves recognizing something they'd overlooked before.
    Bolded gets at what I was going to post. It might seem didactic or self-flagellating to the reader, because by now we've heard about the problem, or the arguments for it, for a long time now. But this is the first time Roy is hearing them and the first time he's contemplating them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ploppy View Post
    Given the repetitive theme in this comic about groups using self-righteous ideologies and oppression narratives as an excuse to behave in a destructive manner, (Redcloak, Miko, the paladins before O-Chul,...), it's amusingly ironic that now we've come to {scrub the post, scrub the quote}
    Quote Originally Posted by CountDVB View Post
    The goblinoids having been screwed over has been a major theme of the comic and the motivation of Redcloak for white a long Time now.

    It looks more that by now, The whole thing is now in people’s faces and forcing them to confront uncomfortable things that they would prefer to rather not think about.

    The Giant has been this point clear before.
    Yes, with a side of "it's hard to take someone seriously who uses the {scrubbed} when it's written by one man who's been very clear about what that plot is for years."
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-05-17 at 03:46 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CountDVB View Post
    It looks more that by now, The whole thing is now in people’s faces and forcing them to confront uncomfortable things that they would prefer to rather not think about.
    It is because it's in people's faces yes I would agree with that first half.
    As for the second half... no, it sounds like some really big wishful thinking on your part that the people complaining are just "People who've been running from uncomfortable truths and that are now being shown... THE LIGHT!".

    I mean come on, let's stay grounded here?

  23. - Top - End - #293
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    People benefit from lots of things, if I scratch a winning lotto ticket I don't suddenly have to go out and run around passing money out to people in penance.
    When you're struggling or even "sort of okay" middle-class, you have to make peace with the fact that people are out there suffering in the world due to a lack of material resources, and there's nothing you can really do about it because trading your own well-being for theirs doesn't really improve the world in any meaningful way.

    But when you win the lottery or become rich through other means, you gain an excess of material wealth that you don't need but others do, and that means that you now can aid others without you being endangered in any way whatsoever.

    You can still choose not to, mind you, but that is a moral choice you are making.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ploppy View Post
    <snip>
    If this is a claim that the comic has thrown nuance out the window, I'd like to emphatically object. The last few pages have been quite impressive for me, as a writer of fiction, to see just how intentionally Rich constructs the scenes to keep his characters complex while also debating some pretty hefty subject material. Notice how neither Durkon nor Redcloak really give much ground in their debate, but seem to agree on certain points. Notice how Thor doesn't really take the blame. Notice how Durkon acknowledges that in passing but doesn't preach to Thor. Notice how both Roy and Durkon acknowledge Redcloak is right about some things but not others.

    In short, I've rarely seen a story that treats its characters with as much respect as OotS does, allowing them to have actual personalities and disagreements while still putting actual conversations about actual issues into their mouths. That's a level of skill I don't yet possess, and one that's in precious short supply in fiction writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by CountDVB View Post
    That and there’s a difference between a mouse vs a cat compared to a cat vs several dogs...
    Well, of course there is! Dogs are loyal, steadfast companions and mice are filthy, terrible vermin. Everyone knows Tom is the tragic hero of the cartoon!
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-05-17 at 03:53 PM. Reason: self-scrubbed

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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    When you're struggling or even "sort of okay" middle-class, you have to make peace with the fact that people are out there suffering in the world due to a lack of material resources, and there's nothing you can really do about it because trading your own well-being for theirs doesn't really improve the world in any meaningful way.
    I don't know about that... if you're even doing "okay" by affluent-nation standards, then you have enough wealth to help people who have much less in the way of material resources.

    If you earn the typical income in the US, and donate 10% of your earnings each year to the Against Malaria Foundation, you will probably save dozens of lives over your lifetime.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pyrefiend View Post
    I don't know about that... if you're even doing "okay" by affluent-nation standards, then you have enough wealth to help people who have much less in the way of material resources.

    If you earn the typical income in the US, and donate 10% of your earnings each year to the Against Malaria Foundation, you will probably save dozens of lives over your lifetime.
    I agree, but a) I am not from an affluent nation, so I tend to not assume people reading my posts are, and b) I didn't want my point to get derailed by nitpicking whether a middle-class person can or cannot effectively aid others materially, when the point I was making was about a lottery winner or some other wealthy person anyway.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    I agree, but a) I am not from an affluent nation, so I tend to not assume people reading my posts are, and b) I didn't want my point to get derailed by nitpicking whether a middle-class person can or cannot effectively aid others materially, when the point I was making was about a lottery winner or some other wealthy person anyway.
    Fair enough, sorry for assuming.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by UnintensifiedFa View Post
    I'm not sure this can be accurately compared to Revolution. There's no authority to revolt against, the Goblins already have that, and they're somewhat satisfied with it (at least, satisfied enough to not want to demolish the system). This is actually why I think these Goblins are often seen as less Good. Revolutions are often seen as righteous and just, but invasions have a significantly worse reputation. (and generally are worse for the people involved).

    But what might be important is that there are people who have an opportunity to make this one of the "Successful" revolutions, and they should definitely take that chance, because I don't want to think about the alternative.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    This is kind of falling flat for me. One, I still don't get how the goblins are so disadvantaged. The main argument is they were given poor land, but the dwarves got literal mountain caves, which are a magnitude worse. Two, in RL discussions of ethnic and racial privilege, the disadvantaged people generally aren't about to cause the apocalypse.
    I think these two quotes help me understand part of why I am struggling so much with the tone and direction of the story.

    I can accept that the goblins have been dealt a poor hand in terms of territory. I agree with many others here who feel the comic has not the best job in showing how desperate and weak the goblin position is, but intellectually I can grok the idea they are unlucky.

    What I understand less is that many people seem to view the goblins as a mistreated underclass in some universal civilisation when from what we see the goblins have their own separate nations (as indeed do the humans - the Stickverse seems to be composed of a mosaic of kingdoms and cultures across all species.) In that sense the goblin conquest of Azure City wasn't a "revolution" but an invasion by a hostile neighbouring state. It is still possible to read nuance into invasion stories of course, but it does make the 'oppressed underclass' argument fall flat for me, especially because it seems to be treading very heavily into overt analogy with real world politics.

  29. - Top - End - #299
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pyrefiend View Post
    The example you gave is tricky, because presumably parents have special obligations to their children. If I had a kid then I would have a special responsibility to raise them right, and part of what that means is that my responsibility to them is weightier than my responsibility to other parents' children.
    Well, that's in essence what the gods are: parents. They created the world, then they divided it up into territories they each control, and they have to respect the boundaries of those gods. They're responsible for the races they create first and foremost, but can extend that responsibility to races that choose to worship them. Thor can't get involved in areas controlled by other gods, largely has to stick with his own pantheon and people. Now, it's possible Thor could have taken steps to try and "adopt" the goblins, send them clerics and try to convert them, but that was an option and not a moral responsibility. The goblins got a bad draw with having a crappy parent, and that responsibility starts and stops with said bad parent.


    But consider a different kind of case with the same structure. Suppose that we're shipwrecked, and you and I are the only survivors. We wash ashore on a desert island, and by sheer chance, I end up on the part of the island that's rich with fish and coconuts. By sheer chance, you end up on the part that's only got a few old coconuts and small fish.

    Suppose I were to say "Well, it's not my fault you ended up over there. I didn't put you in that position. So I'm not going to share—I'll keep all of my nice fish and coconuts, thank you very much." I think that would be seriously wrong of me! It's unjust that I have so much better stuff than you—and by refusing to share, I'm intentionally perpetuating that injustice. I don't think it's at all crazy to say that I am in fact obligated to share with you. I'm obligated to at least take some minimal steps to make our situation more just.

    I think this is the relevant metaphor here. The goblins and the humans "washed ashore" on different parts of the world. The goblins got the bad parts, the humans got the good parts. The situation is unjust. But, plausibly, there are some minimal steps the humans can take to make things more just. It seems like they are obligated to do that, for the same reason that I'm obligated to share my coconuts and fish with you.
    I'm not sure this is equivalent to the goblin situation. It would be more apt if we washed up on an island, had access to all of the food and resources, but you wound up on a part of the island with a cave that served as an immediate home and shelter, as well as a resource for certain materials. Of the resources we both have access to, we have equal access, but you have access to a couple of things I don't. I don't get a nice house right off the bat, but nothing is stopping me from making me own with the things I do have available to me. And if I work hard enough, I could even make my place nicer than yours.

    It would also depend on my reaction. Let's see I find you and see that you're in a better position than myself.

    If I immediately attack you to try and steal your stuff, then you're well within your right to defend yourself, decide never to share again, and attack me on sight.

    If I just show up and demand you give me stuff, you're also well within your rights not to share. You certainly have the option to, and perhaps that act of charity would engender some good will in me towards you, and promote positive relations. Or I'd feel that you're a push over and will be coming back constantly to demand stuff from you and never seek to better myself.

    If I show up, open a dialogue and ask if there's not some way we could share those resources, working with you to improve our situation to a mutual benefit in exchange for an equal share of resources, then yes, you'd be a jerk for not sharing. It'd still technically be your right to say that, "No, I like things the way they are, piss off", but it's a much less reasonable stance if I approach you this way. At the same time, you might have a good reason to do this. You might not trust me, you might be storing resources in case of bad times, etc. But it'd still be your choice to make.

    If you see what I have and try to use your superior position to bully me or take my stuff, then yes, you're a jerk and I have every right to resist you.

    It depends on how both parties approach things.

  30. - Top - End - #300
    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

    Well, the Giant has made his opinion clear on why he is doing this: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=120

    There’s also his view on having it be real world allegory: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=132

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