OOTS #1234 - The Discussion Thread

[Czhorat]

This strip though, this one finally put to words what it is that is sticking in my craw. "Don't we need to take responsibility for our part in a bad setup." No, because you have no responsibility there, as near as I can tell even in tis fantasy universe no one asks to be born and while it's certainly laudable and clearly Good for someone who was for example born to noble parents and rich compared to someone born in a small farming village, no one has a responsibility or obligation to anyone to just go and give them their property.

Whether you ask or not, you still benefit.

I'm an able-bodied white cisgender heterosexual man born to middle-class parents in America. ALL of those characteristics give me privileges for which I've never asked but do benefit. Do I have a responsibility to acknowledge my unearned privileges and use them to try help level the playing field? I say that I do.

[Fyraltari]

There are people who suffer from bad lands situation, who are not goblins - and we literally had them in the comics as the people who live in the southern part of the Western Continent.
If the heroes will not think about them and concentrate only on goblins, just because the Free City of Doom did not manage to find a Doomsday artifact of significant enough scale for blackmail, then... it will be very sad.

Of course, to stop the whole planet from being destoyed or conquered by a mad lich you MAY need to do something with the goblins now - but, when the crisis is over, if heroes will not think about other bad lands and people who live there (and I have a feeling that they will not, because not even once in this comics a character compared a goblins situation to the westerners situation) - then it will become a twisted aesop.

Let me just quote myself:

Uh, no? This problem would have need to be adressed regardless of Redcloak's actions. Thor wants the dark One's help because of the Snarl problem not because of anything the Dark One or his church did. Also we've had Oona and the Monster in the Dark pointing out that Redcloak's agenda isn't even focused on all goblinoids, we have Roy pointing out that the goblins' situation isn't "the most pressing global problem" this very comic and we've seen prejudice against orcs, kobolds, trolls and even a ghost taking the non-online books into account. I'm pretty sure that whatever solution is put forth, it won't just be a goblin/human thing.

My reading of the whole Redclaok situation is that when you mistreat entire groups like that, you will end up with extremists willing to kill inordinate amount of people to get some "retribution". That's part of the problem.

[Dion]

I think the "answering" is a product of Rich trying to drive home his point with low levels of ambiguity, and the loudest voices are the ones whose views are grounded in those ambiguities that Rich intends to solve. (If that makes sense).

That’s a reasonable thing to do. But even here on the first page of the discussion, we have someone arguing that Durkon is wrong about the history of Stickverse.

Im as guilty as anyone for engaging with people who are essentially saying the author is wrong about what’s going on his own self created universe. But at some point you just have to smile, say “you have an interesting point of view”, and move on.

[Rinazina]

...and this is a though one Durkon!

I mean, to solve it, you might need an entirely new world full of unexploited resources and then ask gods to open a wormhole for the goblin safe-space (note about biases, my grammar corrector fix it with goblin-safe space, dah);

Well, Durkon, if I can just sneak into the telepathy network, I would drop this idea. It would at least find you a perfect reason to talk about a planet in the rift next time you prepare Commune.


also, I love the password reference in today comic URL! :)

[Dragonus45]

Whether you ask or not, you still benefit.

People benefit from lots of things, if I scratch a winning lotto ticket I don't suddenly have to go out and run around passing money out to people in penance.

That’s a reasonable thing to do. But even here on the first page of the discussion, we have someone arguing that Durkon is wrong about the history of Stickverse.

Im as guilty as anyone for engaging with people who are essentially saying the author is wrong about what’s going on his own self created universe. But at some point you just have to smile, say “you have an interesting point of view”, and move on.

Have you ever been running a D&D game, and brought up some subject like astronomy or sailing only to suddenly be kind of ambushed when a player knows a lot more then you about the subject, or at least thinks they do. Well imagine that situation, only the subject is a much more subjective one to begin with and the DM's description of the state of things has a few holes in it since he wasn't always planning for the campaign to turn into an epic battle against the forces of the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing and things aren't exactly matching up. Like, I get what Rich MEANS here. I see his intention, I just don't entirely see things from his point of view to begin with and I feel like the story elements are not all adding up 100% to what he says they are.

[UnintensifiedFa]

Personally, what's really going to end up swaying me one way or another is what Durkon's plan entails. "Actions speak louder than words" might have particular relevance here.
Just knowing what the Heroes intend to propose will give us a good idea if they're on the right path.

But honestly, I don't know... I know it'll be resolved (or dealt with, or somehow subverted into a result that addresses the problem in an even more thought-provoking way), but the how, when, and where are kinda out of my purview.

[RMS Oceanic]

...and this is a though one Durkon!

I mean, to solve it, you might need an entirely new world full of unexploited resources and then ask gods to open a wormhole for the goblin safe-space (note about biases, my grammar corrector fix it with goblin-safe space, dah);

Nah, I don't see the world within the world being the solution. I mean it could be in a super clever fashion, but the obvious interpretation of "here's a planet all to yourselves, problem solved" seems a bit external factor, if that makes sense. A more satisfying solution would probably still have the goblins abutting the other races, but with less pointy things in between.

[Worldsong]

Yes, that's the point. There are people who suffer from bad lands situation, who are not goblins - and we literally had them in the comics as the people who live in the southern part of the Western Continent.
If the heroes will not think about them and concentrate only on goblins, just because the Free City of Doom did not manage to find a Doomsday artifact of significant enough scale for blackmail, then... it will be very sad.

Of course, to stop the whole planet from being destoyed or conquered by a mad lich you MAY need to do something with the goblins now - but, when the crisis is over, if heroes will not think about other bad lands and people who live there (and I have a feeling that they will not, because not even once in this comics a character compared a goblins situation to the westerners situation) - then it will become a twisted aesop.

The people living in the desert of the Western Continent have it bad, yes, but they still have it better than the goblinoids. They can build pretty large settlements and openly trade with each other. Yes, they're struggling for survival and yes, there are wars which result in a lot of fatalities, but at least they're at the stage of warring kingdoms, whereas goblinoids for the most part seem to be living in small villages in remote and hard to reach places because if they become big enough to be noticed adventurers of all alignments start heading their way to fix that. And if it's not adventurers it's Azure City and the Sapphire Guard.

Also, note how when the Order talks about dealing with Tarquin it's very specifically about Tarquin. They don't talk about laying waste to the entire Empire of Blood just because the people at the top are Evil.

While the Western Continent also suffers from inequality I don't agree with the assessment that they're on the same level as the systematic discrimination goblinoids face. Of course, ideally the Order would try to fix the Western Continent as well, but the story is focusing on the problem which is more relevant and which the author believes is more prevalent in DnD campaigns.

Nah, I don't see the world within the world being the solution. I mean it could be in a super clever fashion, but the obvious interpretation of "here's a planet all to yourselves, problem solved" seems a bit external factor, if that makes sense. A more satisfying solution would probably still have the goblins abutting the other races, but with less pointy things in between.

Also, it would be avoiding the actual problem, namely that treating sapient beings like they're of a lower order because of their species or race is wrong. Instead of addressing that problem, you'd just be chucking the discriminated party somewhere else so the discrimination still exists but is no longer immediately relevant.

[UnintensifiedFa]

People benefit from lots of things, if I scratch a winning lotto ticket I don't suddenly have to go out and run around passing money out to people in penance.

With a lotto ticket, you've still Risked something, whatever small amount of money you invested into a ticket (or tickets), was risked. Sure the reward was great but you've put something up.

With being born, there's no "Risk" that you put up, no conscious effort taken to try and "Win" the birth lottery. You're just given what you're given, with no control or decision made to "enter" the lotto.

Anyways, maybe we should normalize giving away some portion of lottery winnings. I think those people should still be able to live comfortably (just like privileged people should be able to maintain a comfortable living style as well), but certainly, that money could go to better use than living a life of absolute luxury and experience.

And I feel like people aren't often asking the privileged people to completely give up their lifestyle, just sacrifice some of the benefits that they've accrued from having a far easier start in life to help those who didn't get those same advantages.

[StragaSevera]

Let me just quote myself:
...
This problem would have need to be adressed regardless of Redcloak's actions.
...

The problem lies in defining what "this problem" is.
As far as I see, in comics "this problem" is defined as "the goblins' problem", and not "the problem of people who live in bad lands".

And if we define problem using the first, and not the second definition, then it just becomes the blackmail game - we help not those who need it most, but those who can destroy the world if we don't help them.

[BruceGee]

I think this might be a good place to discuss the upcoming D&D movie. (Apologies if I missed a discussion in a preceding thread).

It would be ideal if they asked someone like Mr. Burlew to write the script. But failing that (and from what I've heard, they already have a script), it seems like we should try to figure out some way of mobilizing D&D fandom worldwide to make some specific demands. Decades worth of previous fantasy films have laid down some terrible precedents (sadly including LOTR), and if a modern movie gets made with the same 80s sensibilities, we ought to riot.

We should insist that any D&D movie made in the 2020s has the following non-negotiable attributes:

1) An ensemble cast. The essence of what makes D&D a great hit is that there are five or six stars, not just one. Dashing hero + comic sidekick + love interest doesn't cut it anymore. (The casting of Chris Pine does not fill me with confidence in this area.) Don't tell me it can't be done in a major movie -- have you heard of a little thing called the Avengers?

2) Racial diversity in the casting of the leads -- both fantasy races and real-world.

3) Gender equity in the party, and passing the Bechdel test.

4) Female characters wearing sensible outfits. All female characters are not impossibly skinny. Who wouldn't want to see Melissa McCarthy as a mace-swinging cleric?

5) No "evil races," especially not "swarthy" evil races. D&D itself just spent the better part of a decade trying to purge that legacy of Tolkien from its system, and the fallout continues (eg. today's OotS strip). Has Hollywood noticed?

6) A bad guy who has motivations more interesting than "ruling the world."

7) A bad guy without a British accent. (The casting of Hugh Grant does not fill me with confidence in this area.)

What else?

[Czhorat]

The problem lies in defining what "this problem" is.
As far as I see, in comics "this problem" is defined as "the goblins' problem", and not "the problem of people who live in bad lands".

And if we define problem using the first, and not the second definition, then it just becomes the blackmail game - we help not those who need it most, but those who can destroy the world if we don't help them.

That would be a point if anyone were trying to help them before they threatened to destroy the world.

The goblins have lived under oppression for as long as they've lived. There's no reason for them NOT to burn it all down. There's every reason for the rest of of the world to wake up and see the error of their ways after it reaches that boiling point.

[Fyraltari]

To paraphrase another comic book "with some power comes some responsability."

People born into privilege have a duty to realize it and do something, however minor to help those who weren't, at the very least, not to hinder them. It's not a moral failure not to solve injustice world-wide because that can't be done just like that, but every bit helps.

[Czhorat]

I think this might be a good place to discuss the upcoming D&D movie. (Apologies if I missed a discussion in a preceding thread).

It would be ideal if they asked someone like Mr. Burlew to write the script. But failing that (and from what I've heard, they already have a script), it seems like we should try to figure out some way of mobilizing D&D fandom worldwide to make some specific demands. Decades worth of previous fantasy films have laid down some terrible precedents (sadly including LOTR), and if a modern movie gets made with the same 80s sensibilities, we ought to riot.

We should insist that any D&D movie made in the 2020s has the following non-negotiable attributes:

1) An ensemble cast. The essence of what makes D&D a great hit is that there are five or six stars, not just one. Dashing hero + comic sidekick + love interest doesn't cut it anymore. (The casting of Chris Pine does not fill me with confidence in this area.) Don't tell me it can't be done in a major movie -- have you heard of a little thing called the Avengers?

2) Racial diversity in the casting of the leads -- both fantasy races and real-world.

3) Gender equity in the party, and passing the Bechdel test.

4) Female characters wearing sensible outfits. All female characters are not impossibly skinny. Who wouldn't want to see Melissa McCarthy as a mace-swinging cleric?

5) No "evil races," especially not "swarthy" evil races. D&D itself just spent the better part of a decade trying to purge that legacy of Tolkien from its system, and the fallout continues (eg. today's OotS strip). Has Hollywood noticed?

6) A bad guy who has motivations more interesting than "ruling the world."

7) A bad guy without a British accent. (The casting of Hugh Grant does not fill me with confidence in this area.)

What else?

This really highlights what RB is doing here; he's tackling the rot at the core of the hobby. It may have gotten better, but D&D in particular has really problematic roots, and it's very important to acknowledge that and try to correct it.

I'm still disappointed in the use of the p-word for Xykon's soul-repository, but that's even more tangential (but if the D&D movie has a Lich, let's not call its soul-container a phylactery, OK? Add that to your list.)

[StragaSevera]

The people living in the desert of the Western Continent have it bad, yes, but they still have it better than the goblinoids. They can build pretty large settlements and openly trade with each other. Yes, they're struggling for survival and yes, there are wars which result in a lot of fatalities, but at least they're at the stage of warring kingdoms, whereas goblinoids for the most part seem to be living in small villages in remote and hard to reach places because if they become big enough to be noticed adventurers of all alignments start heading their way to fix that. And if it's not adventurers it's Azure City and the Sapphire Guard.

Also, note how when the Order talks about dealing with Tarquin it's very specifically about Tarquin. They don't talk about laying waste to the entire Empire of Blood just because the people at the top are Evil.

While the Western Continent also suffers from inequality I don't agree with the assessment that they're on the same level as the systematic discrimination goblinoids face. Of course, ideally the Order would try to fix the Western Continent as well, but the story is focusing on the problem which is more relevant and which the author believes is more prevalent in DnD campaigns.

The fact that there are lot of fatalities means that there are lot of people suffering and dying - and if we value the life of a human, a lizardfolk and a goblin equally, then it means we need to help the places where there are more people dying and suffering regardless of race - and the kingdom can oppress far more people than the small village.

No slave in the western continent is happy just because his discrimination is not systematic. This difference is irrelevant.

But, to be fair, the main question is not "where people suffer more" - the main question is "where do we get bigger reduction of suffering per unit of humanitarian aid" - and this is the main question that effective altruists in the Stickyverse (and in real life) should ask themselves =-)

That would be a point if anyone were trying to help them before they threatened to destroy the world.

The goblins have lived under oppression for as long as they've lived. There's no reason for them NOT to burn it all down. There's every reason for the rest of of the world to wake up and see the error of their ways after it reaches that boiling point.

And if the world wakes up and helps them specifically, then it is clear that you can get help only if you blackmail the world.
Sorry, but I think playing hot potato with the universe is not an optimal strategy to reduce suffering.

[Czhorat]

The fact that there are lot of fatalities means that there are lot of people suffering and dying - and if we value the life of a human, a lizardfolk and a goblin equally, then it means we need to help the places where there are more people dying and suffering regardless of race - and the kingdom can oppress far more people than the small village.

No slave in the western continent is happy just because his discrimination is not systematic. This difference is irrelevant.

But, to be fair, the main question is not "where people suffer more" - the main question is "where do we get bigger reduction of suffering per unit of humanitarian aid" - and this is the main question that effective altruists in the Stickyverse (and in real life) should ask themselves =-)

Systematic issues which disadvantage entire groups have a corrosive effect across the entire world. It's how you get, say, a murderous goblinoid army aligned with an evil lich.

Fixing bad and racist structures should be a priority.

[StragaSevera]

Systematic issues which disadvantage entire groups have a corrosive effect across the entire world. It's how you get, say, a murderous goblinoid army aligned with an evil lich.

Fixing bad and racist structures should be a priority.

Yes, but it is not fair to help goblins at the expense of, for example, Empire of Blood slaves, only because Empire of Blood happens not to be racist.
It does not work that way, you don't just compare the "labels of evil words", and the one who has more labels get the humanitarian aid.

[Czhorat]

And if the world wakes up and helps them specifically, then it is clear that you can get help only if you blackmail the world.
Sorry, but I think playing hot potato with the universe is not an optimal strategy to reduce suffering.

The problem is that they CAN'T get help without a violent uprising - the entire history of the goblinoid people says so. Roy and Durkon - who are both canonically good people who got into the good-aligned afterlife - wouldn't have been in a position to consider the goblins' condition without the uprising.

So, if fighting were the only way to make your voice heard against oppression, would you not fight?

[locksmith of lo]

we'll give you a minute to figure this problem out!

[UnintensifiedFa]

And if we define problem using the first, and not the second definition, then it just becomes the blackmail game - we help not those who need it most, but those who can destroy the world if we don't help them.

The "Blackmail Game" part is a very interesting point, but I'm not sure I take it the same way as you.

The fact that these negotiations only started now isn't necessarily because the world is being threatened at spellpoint, but because someone did a big enough, radical, world-threatening plan, and it got a god's attention. I think that feeling the need to blackmail the entire Earth just so that you could receive better treatment is indicative of the scale of the problem, and that's why the Goblins are just now getting this treatment because the scope of their actions have brought the issue to the attention of Good god's and Good adventurers.

[Severance]

This strip though, this one finally put to words what it is that is sticking in my craw. "Don't we need to take responsibility for our part in a bad setup." No, because you have no responsibility there, as near as I can tell even in tis fantasy universe no one asks to be born and while it's certainly laudable and clearly Good for someone who was for example born to noble parents and rich compared to someone born in a small farming village, no one has a responsibility or obligation to anyone to just go and give them their property.

Thanks for saying this, I've been following this series for a long time but I felt someone had to given how frankly unsufferably preachy the last three strips of this comic have been. The only responsibility you carry is the one that comes from your actions not your being. That's a terrible notion to put forth.
What Durkon is putting forth and Roy agreeing to is group guilt. How abominable.
"You're born as x therefore you have to do y" is such a terrible notion to hold.

Whether you ask or not, you still benefit.

I'm an able-bodied white cisgender heterosexual man born to middle-class parents in America. ALL of those characteristics give me privileges for which I've never asked but do benefit. Do I have a responsibility to acknowledge my unearned privileges and use them to try help level the playing field? I say that I do.

Ditto. "Privilege" is just another reframing for "sin" and both are disgusting ways to look at a human being. Wish I was a mage so I could cast Wish and end this unsufferable parentesis in the action already, or to at least give Roy a Mind Blank so he can call out Durkon on his bs.

[UnintensifiedFa]

So, if fighting were the only way to make your voice heard against oppression, would you not fight?

Because if you do your past violence will be used by people on the internet to say that you're not worthy of attaining equaliy

[StragaSevera]

The problem is that they CAN'T get help without a violent uprising - the entire history of the goblinoid people says so. Roy and Durkon - who are both canonically good people who got into the good-aligned afterlife - wouldn't have been in a position to consider the goblins' condition without the uprising.

So, if fighting were the only way to make your voice heard against oppression, would you not fight?

And if we start helping people only after they make a violent uprising, then we will have violent uprisings all across the world.
I think people who have as bad starting conditions as goblins (for example, the bugbears, who live in the frickin' snow wastes), but did not resort to killing and enslaving other people (at least as far as we saw in-comics), deserve humanitarian aid too. But if we focus the help only on those who killed and enslaved...

[pendell]

Nah, I don't see the world within the world being the solution. I mean it could be in a super clever fashion, but the obvious interpretation of "here's a planet all to yourselves, problem solved" seems a bit external factor, if that makes sense. A more satisfying solution would probably still have the goblins abutting the other races, but with less pointy things in between.

My problem with this solution is that Rich is, again, trying to hold up a mirror to real-world problems. I think he wants to present a hopeful vision where people of many skin tones , even those with fangs and green skin, can live together in harmony with other people. A world where goblins and humans of good will can build a life together, even when it means confronting members of their own species who love slaughter and bloodshed more. That was the entire theme of "How the Paladin Got his scar".

It really isn't possible in the real world to go off to another planet and have it all to yourselves, and because of this it would not be a 'worthwhile' solution, from Rich's perspective, because it offers no meaningful commentary on the real world. It's a Deus Ex Machina solution, and not even a particularly good one. In any story where humans colonize other planets, peace and happiness as people who hate each other permanently separate does not follow. Instead, all the problems we have on this planet get magnified many times over via interstellar conflict.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The MunchKING]

Hmmmm... If he doesn't even give half, I wonder if he gives one letter about the Goblin people. Maybe a D or a M?

Yeah, I doubt Rich's answer to systematic discrimination will be segregation.

Not segregation, Colonization!

"If you feel like you've gotten a bad hand because of how non-fertile your land is, and are willing to work hard on new fertile land, have we got some new land for you!" Nobody is forced to go, it's just the enterprising ones that WANT to go are allowed to.

And yes, if you're trying to be fair, the offer isn't just for Goblins, but the dirt farmers, any slaves you can free from the Western Continent, whomever.


Of course when the second planet's good land runs out, you might have a bit of a population problem. But that's a far future generation's problem. And it's a way better deal than they'd get now.

[Czhorat]

Thanks for saying this, I've been following this series for a long time but I felt someone had to given how frankly unsufferably preachy the last three strips of this comic have been. The only responsibility you carry is the one that comes from your actions not your being. That's a terrible notion to put forth.
What Durkon is putting forth and Roy agreeing to is group guilt. How abominable.
"You're born as x therefore you have to do y" is such a terrible notion to hold.



Ditto. "Privilege" is just another reframing for "sin" and both are disgusting ways to look at a human being. Wish I was a mage so I could cast Wish and end this unsufferable parentesis in the action already, or to at least give Roy a Mind Blank so he can call out Durkon on his bs.

Are you aware that you're disagreeing with me?

The last three steps are the thematic heart of OOTS. This is literally what the story is about - the corrosive effect of systemic racism and the fight to understand and correct it. The stuff with the gates and the evil lich is just plot.

It's also about looking at the racism and sexism at the core of much epic fantasy and TTRPGs, and attempting to do better.

"Privilege" and "sin" are far, FAR different concepts. As a gamer, you might want to read Scalzi's essay titled "The Lowest Difficulty Setting" for a great metaphor.

[Lord Torath]

"That" and "the" both being used as "tha" made panel 3 a bit wonky to read.

I also found it hard to understand. Glad it's not just me.

... it dinnae really matter tha some oth'r god's tha one tha made tha first mistake.

I think he's saying "It doesn't really matter that some other god is the one that made the first mistake." Okay, typing it out really helped my understand that better.

Rich Burlew, if you're reading this, the last panel has Durkon asking "Can a dwarf get a minute to solve worldwide generational inquality?"

I think that's a spelling error, and I think it's important because you could mean either "inequity" or "inequality", and they are two different concepts. "Equality" means "everyone gets treated exactly the same". "Equity" means "we recognize that not everyone starts at the same starting line, and make allowances for the disadvantaged."

"Equality" means a chess grandmaster and an amateur sit down at the same board and play a game with the same starting conditions. "Equity" means the grandmaster spots the amateur a piece or two in order to give the amateur a fighting chance and make the game sporting.

There are two different ideas with very different solutions. Having equity doesn't necessarily mean having equality and vice versa. So it's important to know exactly what problem Durkon is trying to solve here.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I fully support this point, too. Also, should that be "in'quality"? Or "inequality"?

[Czhorat]

And if we start helping people only after they make a violent uprising, then we will have violent uprisings all across the world.
I think people who have as bad starting conditions as goblins (for example, the bugbears, who live in the frickin' snow wastes), but did not resort to killing and enslaving other people (at least as far as we saw in-comics), deserve humanitarian aid too. But if we focus the help only on those who killed and enslaved...

So where is any of this help for those who aren't uprising violently?

Again, the paragons of goodness in this world DON'T SEEM TO CARE.

If you keep getting uprisings that's maybe because you keep engaging in oppression; fix the problem of the ones with whom you're at war and then take a look in the mirror and fix the others unbidden. Give them land. Give them wealth. Offer them positions of power.

But that's the problem. I can't think of any oppressed people - in fiction or reality - which was gifted freedom absent a struggle for it.

[Czhorat]

Because if you do your past violence will be used by people on the internet to say that you're not worthy of attaining equaliy

And if you don't you'll continue to live under the boot.

Damned either way, so may as well go down swinging.

[The MunchKING]

I'm still disappointed in the use of the p-word for Xykon's soul-repository, but that's even more tangential (but if the D&D movie has a Lich, let's not call its soul-container a phylactery, OK? Add that to your list.)

Why? What's wrong with that word?