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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    Before I start, I just wanted to reiterate that I have read the posting rules, specifically that the following two topics are never allowed:
    Real-world religions (including religious reactions to gaming)
    Real-world politics (including political reactions to gaming)

    With that in mind, I want my comments to be focused on OOTS, but to be universally applicable. I wasn't going to bring up religion or politics, but I have scrubbed my examples out of fear that they would spark a political or religious response.

    1. You are not defined by your circumstance. Many people are dealt a bad hand. The goblins worse than most. The world was created long ago. It is not hard to think of examples on your own about people who have been dealt an awful hand, but were able to rise up and make something great. Within OOTS, it certainly seems like the goblins haven been able to thrive from looking at their numbers.

    2. Most of our judgement is when we make a comparison. One comparison that we can all do is to compare our lives to the lives of our grandparents or great grandparents. My grandparents had it rough with none of the nice things in life I take for granted. On the other hand, they never felt oppressed. It is natural to look to others who have it better than you, so I don't fault the goblins one bit. Almost every other race within OOTS has an easier life than they have.

    3. The best people in life and most of the heroes we look up to are able to overcome their base instincts and actually get out and do something with their lives, usually at great personal cost. The goblins have a problem. Everyone kills them on sight. However, unlike a race of animals with no language, the goblins all seem to know common (or whatever the OOTS language is), with many being able to read and write. If their goal is to not be killed on sight, they can find ways to overcome that. Starting with "don't be evil" and then they can accomplish other goals such as obtaining better land. There are ways to improve land on your own (look at the good races who lived in the desert), or you can expand into other better land (after accomplishing the "don't be evil")

    4. I applaud Redcloak for wanting to better their plight. I have less sympathy to others who feel like the goblins are so inferior that it takes a human or a dwarf to solve their problems for them. If they are truly so inferior, they will fall back to their old way of living as soon as your are out of the picture. If they are truly as equal as you think they are, why can't they do things on their own after generations?

    If the moderators feel like I still crossed over any line, feel free to delete this post.
    Last edited by Lamoni; 2021-05-21 at 10:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    Quote Originally Posted by Lamoni View Post
    I have less sympathy to others who feel like the goblins are so inferior that it takes a human or a dwarf to solve their problems for them.
    I hate the “benevolent white savior” trope as much as anyone, but...

    If the problem in OotS-verse is “dwarfs and humans are oppressing the goblins”, then that’s a problem with dwarfs and human behavior. Dwarfs and humans are broken, and only dwarfs and humans can fix themselves.

    Oppression is by its very definition something that oppressor does to the oppressed. The only way to fix oppression is for the oppressor to stop oppressing.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-05-21 at 11:08 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    Quote Originally Posted by Lamoni View Post
    1. You are not defined by your circumstance. Many people are dealt a bad hand. The goblins worse than most.
    This does not seem accurate.
    Spoiler: SOD
    Show

    Based on Redcloak's history of the world the goblins were created alongside lizardmen, kobolds, orcs and dozens of other for the same reasons and all were given bad land.

    So the goblins at least in Redcloak's historical understanding are not uniquely worse off.

    From that starting position the goblinoid people could still band together into a nation without military conquest and form the largest army ever on the northern continent - which after the death of their leader was able to effectively able to defeat multiple human armies until such time as allies arrived to aid the humans.

    As such had the Dark One's army not attacked they would have been able to presumedly keep the nation they formed.


    It is natural to look to others who have it better than you, so I don't fault the goblins one bit. Almost every other race within OOTS has an easier life than they have.
    Ignoring the above from SOD this also seems incorrect.
    The hobgoblins had a functioning nation prior to the arrival of Redcloak with outposts and 87 legions of troops, meanwhile humans are held as slaves on two continents and we have seen lizardfolk held as slaves on one - even the goblins working for Redcloak and Xykon are employees not slaves, see here.

    The goblins have a problem. Everyone kills them on sight.
    This seems to be untrue:
    Spoiler: SOD
    Show

    Right-Eyes family was able to visit the circus with humans with no problems - and he believed his daughter might be being raised by humans.

    Seperately we have confirmation that the hobgoblins do seem to effectively attack on sight here.



    I don't know where the story is going and the message it will ultimately give - if any - but at a dispassionate view the idea that something needs to be done to help the goblins does not seem supported.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    This thread could very easily move into real-world politics, if it hasn't already.

    I'll just flag up that your first point interacts strongly with the 'Equity v Equality' concept. Which is an (interesting) area of real-world politics.
    Your second point is an observation, and talking about it in depth would require real world politics (ie, talking about your grandparents, other grandparents, and comparisons to groups in the modern day, etc).
    Your third point is very hard to make universally applicable, since that would suggest a group which is regularly attacked on sight should focus on 'not being evil'. Your argument is clearly more nuanced, but going into depth with specific examples... real world politics.
    Your fourth point was already addressed by Dion.

    In short, I can't see a way of interacting meaningfully with this thread without very rapidly moving into real-world politics.
    I'm not saying it's a bad topic (I can see at least 3 interesting areas to talk about).
    It's just that people responding here should be cautious.

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    "If you were dealt a bad hand, just pull yourself up by your bootstraps!" conveniently absolves those in power from the consequences of their actions and discourages giving help to the least fortunate, because giving them help would be depriving them of a chance to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and grow stronger as a result.

    It's a convenient rationale that absolves everyone of any responsibility for worsening anybody's circumstances, and actively discourages assistance. Intelligent social species succeed and thrive through cooperation and resource-sharing, so while this logic may produce the occasional extraordinary person, it does so at the expense of thousands that suffer and die before they can make it.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    I think that there is already a thread about this.
    Here.
    https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...oblins-Problem

    Goblin Problem and Goblin Predicament? Same thing.

    I think you can PM the mods and ask them to merge the threads, or add this one to the other one ...
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    I think that there is already a thread about this.
    Here.
    {url i can't post}

    Goblin Problem and Goblin Predicament? Same thing.

    I think you can PM the mods and ask them to merge the threads, or add this one to the other one ...
    This is a completely different thread, talking about a different thing. The thread you linked mostly discusses possible solutions to the goblins' predicament. This thread is about general comments and observation of the goblins' predicament.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    It tends to take a pretty extraordinary person to rise up from their circumstances and make something of themselves... and that leaves everyone else, who were just ordinary, still in those same rotten circumstances. A Good society should want fairness and equal opportunity, yea?

    But aside from that point, I do mostly agree with your message. But I don't think there's a problem with Good people wanting to help out the less fortunate, especially if that means that it'll be diffusing some of the rage from one of those less fortunate people, and help save the world in the process...

    Got to admit I'm with dancrilis in that I don't think the goblin plight has been portrayed that well in the comic so far, though. There are effective ways to portray oppression and I feel like if I have to squint and use non-online content for 99% of the context, well, this ain't been it.

    Edit for typo
    Last edited by Mariele; 2021-05-21 at 03:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by bravelove View Post
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  9. - Top - End - #9
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    Most of the Goblins we've seen have been working for Redcloak or Xykon. It would suck to have those insane evil nutters as a boss, but doesn't say much about the other goblins.

    Right-Eye's village was peaceful, and not oppressed, at least until Xykon showed up.

    The Hobgoblins can afford a huge standing army. That they spent their resources on that rather than nice things was their choice. They were at peace for a long time.

    So if the goblins have been oppressed, it's by other goblins (or a lich).

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    Quote Originally Posted by Lamoni View Post
    It is not hard to think of examples on your own about people who have been dealt an awful hand, but were able to rise up and make something great. Within OOTS, it certainly seems like the goblins haven been able to thrive from looking at their numbers.
    The hobgoblin army was some 26,000-30,000 strong, but that was said to be 90% of their population. Even if we assume that this 90% figure represented the percentage of male hobgoblins capable of bearing arms that were mobilized rather than literally the whole population, we're talking of what, a total population of 100,000 tops? The state of Azure City alone had around 500,000 people.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    They had a huge army (87 legions of ~300) before Xykon and Redcloak took over.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    I'd speculate that, being a military culture, the hobgoblins use the term "legion" in place of "tribe" - so the 87 legions are not a standing army but 87 tribes - and, based on that War & XPs bonus strip, they need 90% of the entire hobgoblin population to go to war, to field the 30,000-goblin army.

    Rather than being a fully-trained standing army, they are more of a militia, with most of them, while trained, doing nonmilitary stuff until Xykon turns up.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    The problem with the 'stop oppressing' theory is that it does nothing to make up for past oppression. In fact, short of role reversal in which the formerly oppressed get to oppress the children of the oppressors, there is no remedy, no punishment, that would appease the current generation of goblins for past injustice.

    The only solution is to forgive those long dead oppressors and move forward. But force and threat has already gotten the goblins to the place where the humans and dwarves offer them equality. Why would they want to stop there? Their cause is just and their god is mighty. What stands between them and rulership of The North?

    There is an opportunity here to break the mold and create a new future, but like all opportunities, one must be educated to see it. Peace is not what you get when you stop fighting, it's what you choose in cooperation with an enemy fully capable of continuing the fight. If one is not educated in the benefits of peace, one might be inclined to continue the fight seeking victory instead. Victory leaves the losing side subject to the whims of the victor, but it also plants the seeds of further grievance which can be used as justification for another war.

    For the goblins to 'win' the other races have to stop oppressing them, but the goblins also have to give up the idea of revenge for past wrongs. The opportunity for equality exists at this point, but equality cannot be given. The goblins cannot have both peace and revenge.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    For the goblins to 'win' the other races have to stop oppressing them, but the goblins also have to give up the idea of revenge for past wrongs.
    Goblins, or at least Redcloak, don't want to give up vengeance, that's the main problem. While I can't know how the story will progress, I assume that people like Redcloak will continue invading more and more countries, because literally all other races are "guilty" by his definition. Goblins are not evil, but Redcloak is. People like him never stop. Goblins will never truly be at peace (holding Gobotopia or without it) while Redcloak lives.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    Redcloak does say "If our issues are addressed, we will have no reason to seize further territories".

    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1208.html


    Based on Utterly Dwarfed commentary, it seems pretty clear that making some kind of peace with Redcloak rather than simply killing him, will be a part of the story in some form.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    Honestly, I'm not sure where the idea that Redcloak will always keep pushing for more vengeance against the PC races comes from other than straightforward 'Evil villain must be Evil villain.' I certainly don't remember him being portrayed that way in the comic. He's deadset in achieving his goals to the point of being willing to commit torture and genocide if that's what it takes but his stated goals are equality, not payback. Even the assault on Azure City, the place which ruined his life, was as much for pragmatic reasons as any desire on Redcloak's side to get revenge.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    Honestly, I'm not sure where the idea that Redcloak will always keep pushing for more vengeance against the PC races comes from other than straightforward 'Evil villain must be Evil villain.' I certainly don't remember him being portrayed that way in the comic. He's deadset in achieving his goals to the point of being willing to commit torture and genocide if that's what it takes but his stated goals are equality, not payback. Even the assault on Azure City, the place which ruined his life, was as much for pragmatic reasons as any desire on Redcloak's side to get revenge.
    I’d say it’s revenge and equality plus a good dose of sunken cost fallacy, but having one of these reasons does not exactly negate the others. People are complex, yo.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    The idea that RC won't stop at equality comes from the fact that he attempted to implode Durkon when that offer was on the table.

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    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I’d say it’s revenge and equality plus a good dose of sunken cost fallacy, but having one of these reasons does not exactly negate the others. People are complex, yo.
    Yes, but the question is where the idea of him being obsessed with revenge comes from, not whether his desire for equality excludes the possibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    The idea that RC won't stop at equality comes from the fact that he attempted to implode Durkon when that offer was on the table.
    Given that he did that out of pragmatic (if misguided and Evil) reasons I wouldn't consider that a good argument for him being busy with revenge.

    Especially since he actually went and told Durkon that he considered the agonizing death an unfortunate side effect to preventing resurrection, with him only beginning to consider it a bonus after Durkon struck a nerve.

    And when Durkon first appeared and Redcloak didn't recognize him he was perfectly fine with letting Durkon walk away. He only turned hostile when he realized Durkon was a potential threat.

    Redcloak is Evil and quick to think that all PC races are the enemy together with the gods, but he doesn't exactly seem hell bent on hurting them for the sake of hurting them. He's not sadistic or bloodthirsty either since he complains about having to kill so many monsters in Kraagor's Tomb without it helping them find the Gate.

    It's entirely possible that he also is motivated by revenge but the idea that Redcloak will forever be driven by vengeance doesn't seem to have solid support in the comic.

    Just because he's Evil and irrational doesn't mean every aspect of his character is wretched.
    Last edited by Worldsong; 2021-05-22 at 12:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    Durkon's offer wasn't exactly solid.
    Quote Originally Posted by bravelove View Post
    people on this forum seeing the no politics sign: huh i wonder what that's for, can't be me, anyways time to compare the comic to politics again-
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariele View Post
    Durkon's offer wasn't exactly solid.
    It's arguably the best he could offer, though he definitely would have benefitted by bringing up specific points to underscore the urgency of the situation.
    You know, things like "Thor has told me the gods are about to blow up the world if the final gate is disturbed, and very nearly voted to do so just last week", or "The Dark One won't automatically survive the interim period, so not releasing the Snarl and helping the other gods make four-color seals would be in his best interest too"
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    He couldn't bring that up until he had Redcloak's full trust and interest. In principle, Redcloak has zero reason to believe those things are true coming from an enemy.
    Last edited by hroþila; 2021-05-22 at 03:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    Oh yeah, it was the best he could offer... but if I have $10 to my name and go to a Ferrari dealership, they aren't going to care that $10 is the best I can offer. It still won't be enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by bravelove View Post
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    I don't know of anything inherently wrong with having as many as people like, but I wonder how many threads we need that basically boil down to "This is why goblins don't deserve any better than status quo ante and treating them that way is justified". The result has been going from thread to thread, mostly just revivifying different spins on the same arguments that didn't hold up well in the last one.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    I don't know of anything inherently wrong with having as many as people like, but I wonder how many threads we need that basically boil down to "This is why goblins don't deserve any better than status quo ante and treating them that way is justified". The result has been going from thread to thread, mostly just revivifying different spins on the same arguments that didn't hold up well in the last one.
    I know, right? Perhaps Rich could have sent the message better, but that doesn't change what the message is.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    I don't know of anything inherently wrong with having as many as people like, but I wonder how many threads we need that basically boil down to "This is why goblins don't deserve any better than status quo ante and treating them that way is justified". The result has been going from thread to thread, mostly just revivifying different spins on the same arguments that didn't hold up well in the last one.
    This is certainly not what I am trying to say, and to be honest, i don't see any posts that make this argument.

    Saying that the goblins must be a part of the solution is not the same as saying that they deserved the problem.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    When it comes to "they deserve what's done to them" assumptions, I think The Giant said it best, regarding the assumption that Redcloak's little sister deserved to be killed.


    Spoiler: Start of Darkness
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjackson View Post
    She attended a religious ceremony for an evil god - Redcloak's initiation. Just the very end is shown, but it is likely that some form of active participation would have been required from the audience.

    Besides that there may have been something else that caused detect evil to ping which was not shown.
    Quote Originally Posted by pjackson View Post
    Willingly attending a ceremony for an Evil religion would normally be considered an evil act. Anyway, where in the comic is there evidence that she has not committed such an act.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    She had not committed an Evil act.

    And it's ridiculous to think that any given six-year-old may have committed a horrible act worthy of being executed unless the text says otherwise, just because that six-year-old has green skin and her parents bring her to their church services. That right there is enough reason for the story to be the way it is. No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-05-23 at 09:11 AM.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    Yeah, goblinoids really need to kick that nasty habit of breathing. Wasting valuable air.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    When it comes to "they deserve what's done to them" assumptions, I think The Giant said it best, regarding the assumption that Redcloak's little sister deserved
    Following that reasoning, in the same book, the first thing shown to us bout X is
    Spoiler: SOD again
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    He crying for his dead dog and zombifing it without intent.
    Nothing really evil, indeed.
    The evil comes the next scene, when the zombie dog eats a bird and X reacts like: "Cool!" (I can't remember the exact words)


    We should then assume that X could have been easily redeemed back there, which really makes X not the petty villain Rich tried to make for the whole SOD, but a tragic figure who lacked a good guide in his starting years. We should not blame X but his tragic past.

    Even more, that being excited to see your dog killing a bird is more (in the intent) irredemeable than participating without being utterly shocked to a ceremony for an evil god?
    Rich talks of it like "going to Church", but standard evil deities are supposed to be cruel: with sacrifices and what not.

    This attitude reminds me of a scene from a movie, The Devil's Advocate: "Popes, Swamis, snake handlers all feeding at the same trough"

    Evil deities and their ceremonies aren't supposed to be just like regular church with the only difference being people liking more dark colors.

    Rich says the little girl isn't evil? Ok, I believe it. I honestly didn't even thought about the whole "evil ceremony" before reading this.
    But handwaving the thing with: "She was just at a ceremony at her church", like an evil church is no different from a good one, sounds quite off.
    Last edited by Dr.Zero; 2021-05-23 at 10:27 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
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    The evil comes the next scene, when the zombie dog eats a bird and X reacts like: "Cool!" (I can't remember the exact words)
    The exact words were:

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    "Cool. Let's go find more birds!" for X's zombie to attack and eat the brains of.

    The point is that he's already gotten the traditional serial killer "kills animals for entertainment" trait.


    By contrast, the ceremony:

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    only has a white cloak being lowered onto the future Redcloak's shoulders. No sacrifice anywhere - not even when the scene is zoomed out.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-05-23 at 10:41 AM.
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