Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

[Severance]

You haven’t studied history then
There’s at least one case of people rising up against a regime despite threats of genocide
Quite simply there are Good gods whose basis of existence is sacrifice and Evil gods whose basis is madness
And it only takes one of them - and these are gods who’ve spent billions of years making worlds. They can see what will happen right away and will not allow power creep from an upstart

I don't understand how what you wrote relates with my post. I never said that people never rose up against regimes (and the fact those regimes existed kinda proves my actual point at how TDO has a shot at creating one) nor I understand how is giving him special concessions and privileges not allowing power creep. The moment he becomes special compared to any other god that's the definition of power creep.

[mjasghar]

And there’s your problem
Currently he is a new quiddity and has no say in the running of the world
All he can do is grant spells and seemingly is more effective in that because he doesn’t entirely follow the demarcation rules
But he doesn’t get invited to the Godsmoots etc He wants a seat at the table but doesn’t understand that there are rules agreed over billions of years about how things are done.
He thinks this only the 2nd world so the gods aren’t going to risk or can’t unmake the world quickly
The evil gods seemingly didn’t tell him this, maybe because they thought he was not going to survive plus they are evil. So his plan won’t work, but he doesn’t know that.
To use your analogy the person is actually holding an old matchlock which isn’t even loaded whilst the crowd are a metre away. By the time he gets it ready to fire he’ll be dead. But he is also blindfolded so doesn’t know that

[GeoffWatson]

He's killed any messengers the gods have sent recently, so he obviously doesn't want to talk or a seat at the table.

[Ruck]

I knew exactly what that would link to, even if I thought of a different clip.

Also, same.

There are plenty of good clips, but I like that one because it shows very efficiently and elegantly how both Mac and Dennis are absurdly over-attached to the duster.

[mjasghar]

He wants a seat on his terms - that is he wants to hold the upper hand
But he doesn’t know that his advantage is slower than the gods simply flipping the table.

[Peelee]

There are plenty of good clips

Kind of describes the show in general, really.

[Mike Havran]

He's killed any messengers the gods have sent recently, so he obviously doesn't want to talk or a seat at the table.

To be fair, he only killed Loki's messengers. And since Loki would behave like a lying piece of weasel dirt in their interactions, that might not be a bad response, either.

[danielxcutter]

To be fair, he only killed Loki's messengers. And since Loki would behave like a lying piece of weasel dirt in their interactions, that might not be a bad response, either.

I have a feeling that part of why TDO is so uncooperative is precisely because his primary source of information was Loki and his pals.

I mean, if nothing else TDO probably was killed under pretense of parley, regardless of other context. The odds of him actually liking Loki are roughly less than negative eighty percent.

[Mechalich]

I have a feeling that part of why TDO is so uncooperative is precisely because his primary source of information was Loki and his pals.

I mean, if nothing else TDO probably was killed under pretense of parley, regardless of other context. The odds of him actually liking Loki are roughly less than negative eighty percent.

The Dark One is also probably uncooperative because he's a psychopath and a megalomaniac as well. I mean, you can take basically all the issues Redcloak has and square them and you're almost certainly still short of the baggage the Dark One is carrying around.

The Dark One has every reason to distrust the existing deities since it was only their neglect of their responsibilities that made his ascension possible in the first place. So...the oppression of the goblins was necessary to generate the one being with the potential to save the universe from destruction, awesome.

[Shadowknight12]

The Dark One is also probably uncooperative because he's a psychopath and a megalomaniac as well.

I'm sure that's the entirety of the reason and has nothing to do with the fact that he was murdered during peace talks, gods tried to kill him when he first ascended for literally no reason (the attack was unprovoked and Thor admits as much), and then later discovered that his only allies among the gods post-murder attempt lied to him and felt further betrayed by the fact that nobody cared about his species from the start, yet everyone was fine just profiting off their deaths.

[Lemarc]

I'm sure that's the entirety of the reason and has nothing to do with the fact that he was murdered during peace talks, gods tried to kill him when he first ascended for literally no reason (the attack was unprovoked and Thor admits as much), and then later discovered that his only allies among the gods post-murder attempt lied to him and felt further betrayed by the fact that nobody cared about his species from the start, yet everyone was fine just profiting off their deaths.

His motives as we know them are relatable even if his actions are not entirely rational. But I say again, the fact that he simply isn't around, and that it's explicitly noted in the strip that Redcloak has never talked with him, makes him a suspect of something. It's possible it's just to avoid overshadowing Redcloak. It's also possible he's something other than what Redcloak's narrative leads us to believe.

[danielxcutter]

Also I’m not sure if “psychopath” and “megalomaniac” are accurate terms to describe his evil anyways. “Dictator” and “spiteful”, maybe, but not those.

[Fyraltari]

In my opinion, we simply don't know enough about The Dark One to discuss his character yet.

[danielxcutter]

In my opinion, we simply don't know enough about The Dark One to discuss his character yet.

Hmm... yeah, most of this is just guesswork. We know his backstory and his Plan, but not enough of his personality.

[dancrilis]

Are you being sarcastic with that last line or not? Genuinely can't tell.

I was going to leave this as a mystery but I think I will answer it.

It is kindof-sarcasm kindof-not sarcasm.

Effectively there seems to be a growing theory on the forum that the ritual is not that bad a thing that it does what Redcloak thinks it would do and The Dark One merely intends to uses it as a bargining chip.

If that theory is correct then when Roy Greenhilt brought The Order of the Stick into the Dungeon of Dorukan he effectively kickstarted everything bad that has happened in the comic.

Without that Nale would likely still have sought the amulet to control his monster hordes, Xykon would still have found out about the seals and how to unlock them - likely would have tricked someone into doing it and then the ritual would have occured and nothing bad would happen, the Lich would then follow some other scheme maybe kill a few goblins maybe die as part of divine punishment but no worse then he currently is.

I don't personally subscribe to that theory
a) because I think The Dark One is likely a bad guy so it wouldn't be a good thing for him to get it
b) because I think Xykon intends to kill him, making him irrelevant whether he is a good guy or not.

But if the theory is true then it follows that Azure City should have surrendered.

[Lemarc]

b) because I think Xykon intends to kill him, making him irrelevant whether he is a good guy or not.

Short of loosing the Snarl on him, in which case he's no better off than when he started and may as well not have bothered, that seems pretty far beyond Xykon's abilities.

[Fyraltari]

Short of loosing the Snarl on him

Which he can't do.

Edit: Also, depsite spending an unhealthy amount of time on these forums, I've never seen this "growing theory" according to which Redcloak's plan working would be a good thing, actually.

[danielxcutter]

I was going to leave this as a mystery but I think I will answer it.

It is kindof-sarcasm kindof-not sarcasm.

Effectively there seems to be a growing theory on the forum that the ritual is not that bad a thing that it does what Redcloak thinks it would do and The Dark One merely intends to uses it as a bargining chip.

If that theory is correct then when Roy Greenhilt brought The Order of the Stick into the Dungeon of Dorukan he effectively kickstarted everything bad that has happened in the comic.

Without that Nale would likely still have sought the amulet to control his monster hordes, Xykon would still have found out about the seals and how to unlock them - likely would have tricked someone into doing it and then the ritual would have occured and nothing bad would happen, the Lich would then follow some other scheme maybe kill a few goblins maybe die as part of divine punishment but no worse then he currently is.

I don't personally subscribe to that theory
a) because I think The Dark One is likely a bad guy so it wouldn't be a good thing for him to get it
b) because I think Xykon intends to kill him, making him irrelevant whether he is a good guy or not.

But if the theory is true then it follows that Azure City should have surrendered.

Yeah, I'm just going to quote the post I made earlier.

Personally, I don't think TDO getting control of the Snarl would be that horrible, compared to some of the other possibilities?

I mean, sure. Probably Evil god with control of a god-killing abomination, probably opposed by other Evil gods as well as the others. A forceful change of the status quo, rather than a more natural one.

But while it's far from ideal, and probably a net loss for the multiverse at large, I can't say it's only downsides. Of course, we all know that'll never happen, but it still has less degrees of Total Fail than like, the Snarl breaking loose and unraveling everything, or the IFCC usurping the Ritual or something.

And the one certain positive is that the goblins would be less shafted than they are now. If not as much as TDO wants because a lot of gods would have a bit of a grudge.

(Emphasis mine, but then again so is the post.)

I'm not saying that it's good. I'm saying that it'd be one of the less sucky Bad Endings.

[Metastachydium]

Edit: Also, depsite spending an unhealthy amount of time on these forums, I've never seen this "growing theory" according to which Redcloak's plan working would be a good thing, actually.

That's because you're not paying attention. For a while I advocated this idea quite aggressively, but then people told me it's creepy, so I rarely bring it up these days so as not to unsettle anyone. It never really caught on, though, and I took ample amounts of flak for it from all existing factions 'round here too.
The Plan must continue!

[Lemarc]

That's because you're not paying attention. For a while I advocated this idea quite aggressively, but then people told me it's creepy, so I rarely bring it up these days so as not to unsettle anyone. It never really caught on, though, and I took ample amounts of flak for it from all existing factions 'round here too.
The Plan must continue!

It is creepy. It's violent and ineffective. If it were violent but effective people would probably be more on board.

[Metastachydium]

It is creepy. It's violent and ineffective. If it were violent but effective people would probably be more on board.

It's not all that violent by necessity and I still think it could work out if everyone plays smart (although I'll be the first person to admit that Kraagor's being the last Gate standing, khm, somewhat reduces the odds of the Plan succeeding), but I'm ready to drop the subject for now.

[hungrycrow]

That's because you're not paying attention. For a while I advocated this idea quite aggressively, but then people told me it's creepy, so I rarely bring it up these days so as not to unsettle anyone. It never really caught on, though, and I took ample amounts of flak for it from all existing factions 'round here too.
The Plan must continue!

Part of the problem is that the part where TDO makes demands isn't really clear. So some posters assume he might make reasonable demands, while others assume they'll be cruel and vindictive.

[Metastachydium]

Part of the problem is that the part where TDO makes demands isn't really clear. So some posters assume he might make reasonable demands, while others assume they'll be cruel and vindictive.

The Giant explicitly clarified that Big Purple knows he can't get too cocky. The „whatifthedarkonedoes'ntcareaboutgoblins” people I can get (which doesn't mean I agree with them), but the „bigpurplewillgoallkneelbeforezod” folks don't really have a valid point.

[Lemarc]

It's not all that violent by necessity and I still think it could work out if everyone plays smart (although I'll be the first person to admit that Kraagor's being the last Gate standing, khm, somewhat reduces the odds of the Plan succeeding), but I'm ready to drop the subject for now.

We know it can't work in-story because the gods would rather burn the world down than kowtow. It's creepy on an emotional level because we know it isn't a valid tactic in real life - a single bomb threat is not sufficient to make people change policy - so we associate the tactic with the sort of people who actually employ it, violent lunatics. That's not a slight against you, I could see my way to an interpretation where TDO's plan is valid if we accepted his evaluation and we didn't know the plan was doomed from the start.

[hungrycrow]

The Giant explicitly clarified that Big Purple knows he can't get too cocky. The „whatifthedarkonedoes'ntcareaboutgoblins” people I can get (which doesn't mean I agree with them), but the „bigpurplewillgoallkneelbeforezod” folks don't really have a valid point.

There's a lot of space for cruelty short of kneel before zod. TDO could potentially ask for some payback against the mortal pc races and think that isn't too cocky. I'll admit the way the Giant talks about it sounds like the demands would be relatively light though.
As others have said however we don't know what the breaking points for the various gods are. One of the gods might refuse to meet any demands at all just on principle. Which kind of makes the whole threaten with a single-shot pistol plan a wash, even only knowing what Redcloak and TDO know.

[Worldsong]

I was going to leave this as a mystery but I think I will answer it.

It is kindof-sarcasm kindof-not sarcasm.

Effectively there seems to be a growing theory on the forum that the ritual is not that bad a thing that it does what Redcloak thinks it would do and The Dark One merely intends to uses it as a bargining chip.

If that theory is correct then when Roy Greenhilt brought The Order of the Stick into the Dungeon of Dorukan he effectively kickstarted everything bad that has happened in the comic.

Without that Nale would likely still have sought the amulet to control his monster hordes, Xykon would still have found out about the seals and how to unlock them - likely would have tricked someone into doing it and then the ritual would have occured and nothing bad would happen, the Lich would then follow some other scheme maybe kill a few goblins maybe die as part of divine punishment but no worse then he currently is.

I don't personally subscribe to that theory
a) because I think The Dark One is likely a bad guy so it wouldn't be a good thing for him to get it
b) because I think Xykon intends to kill him, making him irrelevant whether he is a good guy or not.

But if the theory is true then it follows that Azure City should have surrendered.

The alternative, which doesn't require Xykon to somehow be such a magnificent bastard that he could accurately direct the Snarl to kill the Dark One without it dooming the rest of reality as well, is that in theory it might be acceptable to let the Plan succeed but in practice it'd never work because the other deities would either immediately pull the plug or one of the deities would call the Dark One's bluff and everyone dies.

Or as described by Schlock Mercenary:

Spoiler: Schlock Mercenary

Show

EDIT:
Oh, and as has been confirmed by Thor the other deities actually can't give the Dark One what he wants, which is also a good way to ensure everything goes horribly wrong since he might not believe them.

[danielxcutter]

The alternative, which doesn't require Xykon to somehow be such a magnificent bastard that he could accurately direct the Snarl to kill the Dark One without it dooming the rest of reality as well, is that in theory it might be acceptable to let the Plan succeed but in practice it'd never work because the other deities would either immediately pull the plug or one of the deities would call the Dark One's bluff and everyone dies.

Or as described by Schlock Mercenary:

Spoiler: Schlock Mercenary

Show

EDIT:
Oh, and as has been confirmed by Thor the other deities actually can't give the Dark One what he wants, which is also a good way to ensure everything goes horribly wrong since he might not believe them.

More or less, yeah. Though my personal opinion is "not ideal, but oh boy are there hypothetical Fails that make it look pleasant in comparison and at least it's not 100% downsides, unlike the Snarl getting loose or someone even less pleasant like Xykon or the IFCC gaining control of it".

[Ionathus]

That's because you're not paying attention. For a while I advocated this idea quite aggressively, but then people told me it's creepy, so I rarely bring it up these days so as not to unsettle anyone. It never really caught on, though, and I took ample amounts of flak for it from all existing factions 'round here too.
The Plan must continue!

The main reason I've always been against that line of thinking is that it would send a terrible message. If TDO doesn't have the Snarl Option, he has to meet the other gods and talk through the problems. He has something they need, and they owe the goblinoids a more even playing field, so they'll have to work together to save the world and improve the lives of those who live in it. The message is about cooperation and fixing your mistakes.

If TDO has the Snarl Option, however, that cooperation isn't being given freely. Even if he doesn't threaten with it, and still comes to the negotiating table, it will hang like a grim specter over all their heads. The message is no longer about cooperation: it's about either the power of force, or a warning that revenge is justified, and it will come for you. Both of which are too cynical for OotS, if Rich's comments are to be believed.

[dancrilis]

... but in practice it'd never work because the other deities would either immediately pull the plug or one of the deities would call the Dark One's bluff and everyone dies.

There are a number of deity choices but the two you seem to be suggesting would be a choice between Hel (Queen of the North) and The Dark One (and a potentially end to the snarl situation once and for all depending on how the negotiations go) and that they would choose Hel.

That might be the case but I would not be very sure about it.

Whether or not The Dark One gets the snarl the other gods want to negotate with him to put it beyond use - him having it doesn't change what they want or what he wants (assuming he wants it to help him achieve something and not merely so he can have a stick to threaten people with).

[danielxcutter]

The main reason I've always been against that line of thinking is that it would send a terrible message. If TDO doesn't have the Snarl Option, he has to meet the other gods and talk through the problems. He has something they need, and they owe the goblinoids a more even playing field, so they'll have to work together to save the world and improve the lives of those who live in it. The message is about cooperation and fixing your mistakes.

If TDO has the Snarl Option, however, that cooperation isn't being given freely. Even if he doesn't threaten with it, and still comes to the negotiating table, it will hang like a grim specter over all their heads. The message is no longer about cooperation: it's about either the power of force, or a warning that revenge is justified, and it will come for you. Both of which are too cynical for OotS, if Rich's comments are to be believed.

I get what you mean. What you do think about my "not ideal but it could be so so much worse" opinion?

There are a number of deity choices but the two you seem to be suggesting would be a choice between Hel (Queen of the North) and The Dark One (and a potentially end to the snarl situation once and for all depending on how the negotiations go) and that they would choose Hel.

That might be the case but I would not be very sure about it.

Whether or not The Dark One gets the snarl the other gods want to negotate with him to put it beyond use - him having it doesn't change what they want or what he wants (assuming he wants it to help him achieve something and not merely so he can have a stick to threaten people with).

I mean, better the devil you know than the devil you don't I guess?