Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

[Metastachydium]

in practice it'd never work because the other deities would either immediately pull the plug or one of the deities would call the Dark One's bluff and everyone dies.

The Giant personally implied that the latter is not a given. As for the former, you might remember my usual counter for that: Loki's words at the Godsmoot seem to suggest that the gods cannot just pull the plug unless the Godsmoot concludes with an agreement reached to that effect.

Oh, and as has been confirmed by Thor the other deities actually can't give the Dark One what he wants, which is also a good way to ensure everything goes horribly wrong since he might not believe them.

All Thor confirmed was that they can't miraculously turn their lands into paradise-on-earth (and changing racial traits is most likely out of question as well, since it would definitely count as a widespread change). That's not the only way a level playing field can be created, though. As I've argued a number of times, the gods can more than blackmail their followers into adopting a new dogma of acceptance which could help prevent unnecessary hostilities and provide goblinoid access to resources they currently lack.

The main reason I've always been against that line of thinking is that it would send a terrible message. If TDO doesn't have the Snarl Option, he has to meet the other gods and talk through the problems. He has something they need, and they owe the goblinoids a more even playing field, so they'll have to work together to save the world and improve the lives of those who live in it. The message is about cooperation and fixing your mistakes.

If TDO has the Snarl Option, however, that cooperation isn't being given freely. Even if he doesn't threaten with it, and still comes to the negotiating table, it will hang like a grim specter over all their heads. The message is no longer about cooperation: it's about either the power of force, or a warning that revenge is justified, and it will come for you. Both of which are too cynical for OotS, if Rich's comments are to be believed.

Yes, that's fair. I must admit that I don't really see the Pl,an as a lasting long term solution in every way possible either. The thing that makes the Plan attractive is that it would get Big Purple to initiate talks with the other gods, and once they are talking the gods can make a meaningful counteroffer to him, the Gate guaranteeing that he feels safe and comfortable around them. If they could get him to aggree to try closing the Rift above Gobbotopia City with them (which is a net gain for both side), they could prove that he holds a better leverage than the Gatenuke, and the groundwork for actual cooperation would be all but laid as long as everyone plays nice.

[Lemarc]

There are a number of deity choices but the two you seem to be suggesting would be a choice between Hel (Queen of the North) and The Dark One (and a potentially end to the snarl situation once and for all depending on how the negotiations go) and that they would choose Hel.

That might be the case but I would not be very sure about it.

If you're saying they might choose letting the Dark One dictate policy for all pantheons over Hel becoming the most powerful northern god, sure, that's reasonable for some gods. Not all gods, which is the crux. I can't see any way to threaten such a mixed crowd into total obedience - it's not like they're a bunch of people grabbed off the subway, they're supernatural representatives of every D&D alignment. Some people don't care. It only takes a couple.

As I've argued a number of times, the gods can more than blackmail their followers into adopting a new dogma of acceptance which could help prevent unnecessary hostilities and provide goblinoid access to resources they currently lack.

Can maybe, but won't and can't be forced to with the means at TDO's disposal.

[danielxcutter]

Yes, that's fair. I must admit that I don't really see the Pl,an as a lasting long term solution in every way possible either. The thing that makes the Plan attractive is that it would get Big Purple to initiate talks with the other gods, and once they are talking the gods can make a meaningful counteroffer to him, the Gate guaranteeing that he feels safe and comfortable around them. If they could get him to aggree to try closing the Rift above Gobbotopia City with them (which is a net gain for both side), they could prove that he holds a better leverage than the Gatenuke, and the groundwork for actual cooperation would be all but laid as long as everyone plays nice.

Oh right, closing the Rift. Almost forgot about that, especially since one way or another Xykon probably won't be around to supply the arcane slots for that.

"Our wizard can help ye seal tha Rifts so tha Snarl don't ruin e'erything."
"And how would sealing them help us?"
"Fer starters, thar's one righ' above yer place."
"That's on me, I set the bar too low."

[Metastachydium]

If you're saying they might choose letting the Dark One dictate policy for all pantheons over Hel becoming the most powerful northern god, sure, that's reasonable for some gods. Not all gods, which is the crux. I can't see any way to threaten such a mixed crowd into total obedience - it's not like they're a bunch of people grabbed off the subway, they're supernatural representatives of every D&D alignment. Some people don't care. It only takes a couple.

As far as we know, the Dark One only wants to implement some fairly specific policy (rather than dictating policy 'til the end of days) and there is no indication whatsoever that he expects total obedience.
(In fact, it is Hel who wants to build a new world in her image and who heavily implies that she intends to actually boss around at least her Fellow Yellows (which she could do with impunity since intrapantheonic conflict does not create Snarls).)

Oh right, closing the Rift. Almost forgot about that, especially since one way or another Xykon probably won't be around to supply the arcane slots for that.

"Our wizard can help ye seal tha Rifts so tha Snarl don't ruin e'erything."
"And how would sealing them help us?"
"Fer starters, thar's one righ' above yer place."
"That's on me, I set the bar too low."

Heh.

Edit:

Can maybe, but won't and can't be forced to with the means at TDO's disposal.

I'll continue to hold that the Gatenuke is a quite powerful tool (the gods wouldn't otherwise be worried about it) and that once the four pantheons start talking, better incentives for future cooperation are likely to come up (in which case all the Gatenuke has to achieve is to get Big Purple near the table).

[Worldsong]

There are a number of deity choices but the two you seem to be suggesting would be a choice between Hel (Queen of the North) and The Dark One (and a potentially end to the snarl situation once and for all depending on how the negotiations go) and that they would choose Hel.

That might be the case but I would not be very sure about it.

Whether or not The Dark One gets the snarl the other gods want to negotate with him to put it beyond use - him having it doesn't change what they want or what he wants (assuming he wants it to help him achieve something and not merely so he can have a stick to threaten people with).

I was more thinking about the suggestion that the Order of the Stick shouldn't have stopped Team Evil at the first gate in the webcomic or that Azure City should just have surrendered, when the gods wouldn't have known that pulling the plug would result in Hel ruling the yellow pantheon in the next world.

Although as Daniel said, even with that knowledge it wouldn't surprise me if the established deities preferred letting Hel boss the other yellow gods around over letting the Dark One hold the godkilling eldritch monstrosity over their heads, even if they might regret that decision in the long run.

All Thor confirmed was that they can't miraculously turn their lands into paradise-on-earth (and changing racial traits is most likely out of question as well, since it would definitely count as a widespread change). That's not the only way a level playing field can be created, though. As I've argued a number of times, the gods can more than blackmail their followers into adopting a new dogma of acceptance which could help prevent unnecessary hostilities and provide goblinoid access to resources they currently lack.

I'm all in favour of having all deities communicate to their followers that they should treat goblinoids the way they'd treat members of their own race, but from my understanding Redcloak at the very least is expecting some kind of divine intervention and it's entirely possible that the Dark One also has more in mind than a propaganda campaign.

[Metastachydium]

I'm all in favour of having all deities communicate to their followers that they should treat goblinoids the way they'd treat members of their own race, but from my understanding Redcloak at the very least is expecting some kind of divine intervention and it's entirely possible that the Dark One also has more in mind than a propaganda campaign.

Well, I'd argue that the very gods collectively interceding on the goblonoids' behalf is a kind of divine intervention (even though I gotta give it to you that at this point Redcloak would probably argue otherwise).

[Lemarc]

As far as we know, the Dark One only wants to implement some fairly specific policy (rather than dictating policy 'til the end of days) and there is no indication whatsoever that he expects total obedience.
(In fact, it is Hel who wants to build a new world in her image and who heavily implies that she intends to actually boss around at least her Fellow Yellows (which she could do with impunity since intrapantheonic conflict does not create Snarls).)

Sure. I conflated your argument with Severance's, my bad. If the idea is that TDO will have reasonable demands and that the bomb threat is effective (which we've been given to understand is not the case), the most I can say against it besides any ethical concerns is that it doesn't seem long-term sustainable.

[danielxcutter]

Sure. I conflated your argument with Severance's, my bad. If the idea is that TDO will have reasonable demands and that the bomb threat is effective (which we've been given to understand is not the case), the most I can say against it besides any ethical concerns is that it doesn't seem long-term sustainable.

It's not, yeah. I only consider that favorable to outcomes that are also horrible in the short-term(i.e. the Snarl getting loose). And that's a pretty low bar.

[arimareiji]

I was more thinking about the suggestion that the Order of the Stick shouldn't have stopped Team Evil at the first gate in the webcomic or that Azure City should just have surrendered, when the gods wouldn't have known that pulling the plug would result in Hel ruling the yellow pantheon in the next world.

Although as Daniel said, even with that knowledge it wouldn't surprise me if the established deities preferred letting Hel boss the other yellow gods around over letting the Dark One hold the godkilling eldritch monstrosity over their heads, even if they might regret that decision in the long run.

Thoughtful discussion on the forums is starting to remind me a bit of shōgi. You have to keep in mind all of the hypotheticals created by earlier moves that haven't been countered and are thus still in play, i.e. "True, X is doing the best they can with what they know now, and was doing the best they could with what they knew before -- but if they'd succeeded, they'd have been bitten by what the readers know."

(And remember that no matter how many times you capture a piece, another one just like it can get put right back on the board. Ymmv on the similarities of this to arguments made.)

[dancrilis]

I was more thinking about the suggestion that the Order of the Stick shouldn't have stopped Team Evil at the first gate in the webcomic or that Azure City should just have surrendered, when the gods wouldn't have known that pulling the plug would result in Hel ruling the yellow pantheon in the next world.

Even then the gods would have had a decision to make - risk The Dark One getting the snarl for the benefit of possibly removing the snarl as a threat.

They only called a godsmoot after four of the gates were destroyed so Team Evil getting a gate and sitting on it for months was not deemed a concern - maybe starting the ritual would have been but I don't think it would have been an automatic vote to destroy the world - if the gods of the west don't believe that The Dark One even exists then they would have less reason to vote to end the world and at least some of the gods of the north and south actually want to talk to him (and he wouldn't have annoyed the south at that point).

[Squire Doodad]

I was more thinking about the suggestion that the Order of the Stick shouldn't have stopped Team Evil at the first gate in the webcomic or that Azure City should just have surrendered, when the gods wouldn't have known that pulling the plug would result in Hel ruling the yellow pantheon in the next world.

Although as Daniel said, even with that knowledge it wouldn't surprise me if the established deities preferred letting Hel boss the other yellow gods around over letting the Dark One hold the godkilling eldritch monstrosity over their heads, even if they might regret that decision in the long run.

For all we know, even assuming the gods seen in the crayon depiction (Odin, Dragon, Thor, etc) were all at the first world, there could have been plenty of times when one god or another managed to become the dominant god. Maybe one time a massive Thieves' Guild took over the entirety of the Yellow Continent, and established Loki as the ruling god in a world that lasted for millennia past that, to the point that Loki was the head of the Yellow Pantheon for several dozen worlds until enough people got tired of the whole "Thiefking Loki" shtick that his power slowly receded.

It's possible that, if you get rid of TDO's special case, Hel winning wouldn't have been that big. It would have drastically changed the game in the short term, but eventually someone else would have knocked her clergy over.

[Mechalich]

For all we know, even assuming the gods seen in the crayon depiction (Odin, Dragon, Thor, etc) were all at the first world, there could have been plenty of times when one god or another managed to become the dominant god. Maybe one time a massive Thieves' Guild took over the entirety of the Yellow Continent, and established Loki as the ruling god in a world that lasted for millennia past that, to the point that Loki was the head of the Yellow Pantheon for several dozen worlds until enough people got tired of the whole "Thiefking Loki" shtick that his power slowly receded.

It's possible that, if you get rid of TDO's special case, Hel winning wouldn't have been that big. It would have drastically changed the game in the short term, but eventually someone else would have knocked her clergy over.

This seems almost certain. Fluctuations in the relative power of the gods must occur to justify Hel accepting the bet with Loki in the first place. She thought she was being allowed a chance to scam the system, which means scamming the system is possible.

Also, we can consider a hypothetical version of Stickworld where there was no bet and Hel retained a priesthood as normal. In that case I see no reason for her vote to change, it simply would no longer represent a huge unearned win for her (one which, honestly, the gods should have anticipated, since there was something like a 99.999% probability that they were going to destroy the world eventually going in). Now, in that circumstance there would be significantly less motivation for her to meddle with the vote of the demigods and so that whole plotline would be unnecessary, but the overall circumstances at the global level would remain unchanged.

[Ruck]

This seems almost certain. Fluctuations in the relative power of the gods must occur to justify Hel accepting the bet with Loki in the first place. She thought she was being allowed a chance to scam the system, which means scamming the system is possible.

Also, we can consider a hypothetical version of Stickworld where there was no bet and Hel retained a priesthood as normal. In that case I see no reason for her vote to change, it simply would no longer represent a huge unearned win for her (one which, honestly, the gods should have anticipated, since there was something like a 99.999% probability that they were going to destroy the world eventually going in). Now, in that circumstance there would be significantly less motivation for her to meddle with the vote of the demigods and so that whole plotline would be unnecessary, but the overall circumstances at the global level would remain unchanged.

Bolded raises an interesting question: Could the gods have done much? Seems like any god not of the Northern Pantheon objecting risks another Snarl, and of those who might have objected from the Northern... well, the Good gods we've seen who weren't involved in the bet seem like space cadets, and the other gods would probably have a "Whatever, I don't care" attitude toward it.

[danielxcutter]

Bolded raises an interesting question: Could the gods have done much? Seems like any god not of the Northern Pantheon objecting risks another Snarl, and of those who might have objected from the Northern... well, the Good gods we've seen who weren't involved in the bet seem like space cadets, and the other gods would probably have a "Whatever, I don't care" attitude toward it.

...Space cadets?

[Ruck]

...Space cadets?

Airheads? Generally loopy? Mentally out to lunch? I'm mostly thinking of Odin and Balder here.

[mjasghar]

It was Loki who came up with the bet. Thor agreed only when drunk
I’m sure Loki probably did appreciate it would mean a massive boost to Hel in the next world
But that’s just one world. The gods are at the stage where they are blasé about worlds and see them as chances to try weird stuff because there’s go to be a new one a few thousand years later
Sure, the good gods care about the people. But Loki isn’t good and Thor seems to have had a legacy of foolishness from the last world

[Ruck]

Kind of describes the show in general, really.

Plenty of good episodes, too. Probably the premier American sitcom of the 21st century.

[Doug Lampert]

A paperback in my hot little hands titled "Beyond the Legacy of Genghis Khan" by Linda Komaroff, who I don't know from Eve, but which jibes with my general understanding of how trebuchets were used. The Mongols are reported to have swamped the Caliph's field army by breaking dams, then broke down the walls and towers of the city with catapults, which in this case would be counterweight trebuchets (since the design was famously copied at Xiangyang, which I didn't use as an example because they used explosive shells). The Mongols are described as having relied on their catapults and manpower in siege operations.

It is not remotely a detailed description of a trebuchet siege. I dug it off my shelf because it was to hand and because the target was Baghdad, an extremely fortified city and the most extreme example that came to mind. Baghdad (according separate source) had concentric walls, extremely thick and high with an incline of not much more than 60 degrees. I suspect we might have different definitions of "breach". No amount of catapult fire can displace a kiloton of bricks, nor can ramming or sapping, but it can convert a section of manned wall into an unmanned scalable mound, and that to me is a breach. At least it's a navigable gap in the defences that you can put your men through, accomplished through catapults. Certainly sustained trebuchet fire can shatter the towers of a castle; against a city rampart some amount of ramp-building might be necessary to get up to the gap you've made, but that doesn't mean the trebuchet compares unfavourably with other siege equipment and methods, which I think is the point under discussion.

Actually, the original question was comparing if they could they have taken down the walls without the elementals. Not comparing to other actual historical methods.

And you concede with the statements that "No amount of catapult fire can displace a kiloton of bricks" and "against a city rampart some amount of ramp-building might be necessary to get up to the gap you've made" that you can't open a major city's wall with just trebuchet fire. A ramp of dead hobgoblins requires that you have an effective breach already (see the fact that the massive pile from the sexy shoeless god of war scene was totally inadequate).

The hobgoblin assault simply does not work anything like as well as it does in the comic without magic, and that magic comes from X and RC, the hobgoblins need them to take Azure City.

Edited to add: That said, it seems likely that the trebuchets were more effective against Bagdad than I had thought possible, so thanks for the information.

[arimareiji]

Airheads? Generally loopy? Mentally out to lunch? I'm mostly thinking of Odin and Balder here.

I'd never thought about it before: I bet there's an interesting story behind the meandering path it took to get from what sounds a synonym for "astronaut", to "someone whose brain isn't working all that well."

But instead of being measured in degrees of Kevin Bacon, it's degrees of etymology. (^_~)

[Hurkyl]

I'd never thought about it before: I bet there's an interesting story behind the meandering path it took to get from what sounds a synonym for "astronaut", to "someone whose brain isn't working all that well."

But instead of being measured in degrees of Kevin Bacon, it's degrees of etymology. (^_~)

You mean "airhead"? I think I've always assumed it was meant to invoke the image of someone whose head is empty (and thus full of air).

[arimareiji]

You mean "airhead"? I think I've always assumed it was meant to invoke the image of someone whose head is empty (and thus full of air).

Sorry, I should have pasted in the comment Ruck was responding to (asking about the meaning of "space cadet").

[pendell]

Actually, the original question was comparing if they could they have taken down the walls without the elementals. Not comparing to other actual historical methods.

And you concede with the statements that "No amount of catapult fire can displace a kiloton of bricks" and "against a city rampart some amount of ramp-building might be necessary to get up to the gap you've made" that you can't open a major city's wall with just trebuchet fire. A ramp of dead hobgoblins requires that you have an effective breach already (see the fact that the massive pile from the sexy shoeless god of war scene was totally inadequate).

The hobgoblin assault simply does not work anything like as well as it does in the comic without magic, and that magic comes from X and RC, the hobgoblins need them to take Azure City.

Edited to add: That said, it seems likely that the trebuchets were more effective against Bagdad than I had thought possible, so thanks for the information.

Xykon and Redcloak are not the only high-level casters in OOTS world. IF the hobgoblins had a reason to assault Azure City, I assume they would not have started the offensive until they had solved that little problem. Perhaps there are mercenary casters in OOTS world equivalent to the mercenary artillery , pikemen , or other special-purpose military units which existed in the real world.

The reason they hadn't done so before is because the hobgoblins were a weak people prior to the events of HTPGHS, when a new visionary leader took over who was more interested in the prosperity of his people than war with outsiders. As a result, the hobgoblin civilization flourished in numbers, swelling from a few isolated bands to an impressive army.

Then Redcloak came in and took the whole thing over. It is the height of irony that a peacetime leader would wind up forging a weapon of war which Redcloak and company would then use.

This is a fantasy world; only a fool would assault a major city without a corps of high-level arcane and divine casters, both to neutralize the city's magical defenses and to create new tactical opportunities. There is no way any rational faction would launch a purely mundane assault unless they had some kind of magic-be-gone trump card which I see no evidence of in OOTS world.

So, yes, the hobgoblins were dependent on Redcloak and Xykon for magical support in this assault. However, I'm not convinced they couldn't have recruited or trained some others, IF they had a pressing reason to assault Azure City on their own, which they did not.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Shadowknight12]

So, yes, the hobgoblins were dependent on Redcloak and Xykon for magical support in this assault. However, I'm not convinced they couldn't have recruited or trained some others, IF they had a pressing reason to assault Azure City on their own, which they did not.

This assumes the hobgoblins can muster a number of casters of sufficiently high level to not only match the same casters Azure City has, but also exceed them, and exceed them sufficiently to pierce the walls and to also reach the extremely well-defended throne room with the paladins and the ghost martyrs (which would defend the throne room even if the hobgoblins had no clue about the Gate) and still had enough leftover force to fully conquer the city afterwards.

I don't think a group that starts at a disadvantage can overcome a group with more advantages outside of special circumstances.

[danielxcutter]

And to be fair, Team Evil is about as "special circumstances" as it gets.

[Fyraltari]

And while we know the (hob)goblins can produce their own decently leveled Clerics, we've been told explicitly that they don't have a single arcane caster worth a damn.

[danielxcutter]

And while we know the (hob)goblins can produce their own decently leveled Clerics, we've been told explicitly that they don't have a single arcane caster worth a damn.

I feel like I'm dying and it's been a while. Where was that again?

[Peelee]

I feel like I'm dying and it's been a while. Where was that again?

Start of Darkness.

[dancrilis]

I feel like I'm dying and it's been a while. Where was that again?

It wasn't - it was specificed that Redcloak hadn't came across any goblinoid arcane casters worth a damn when he initially met up with Xykon, but we actually have seen goblin arcane casters since then who might be low level but didn't seem incompetent - we also might have heard of one (assuming they were a goblinoid) was also fairly high level.

[Fyraltari]

It wasn't - it was specificed that Redcloak hadn't came across any goblinoid arcane casters worth a damn when he initially met up with Xykon, but we actually have seen goblin arcane casters since then who might be low level but didn't seem incompetent

There's also one at the end of SoD. But "not worth a damn" included low-level in my mind.

we also might have heard of one (assuming they were a goblinoid) was also fairly high level.

Do you mean the psion they got to probe O-Chul? Does that count as arcane? If not, I don't recall.

[danielxcutter]

Well, in the comic the highest arcane spell we've seen a goblin casting is Dancing Lights. Yes, I know it's a warning signal, it's just not inspiring much confidence in the arcane might of hobgoblin society. And cleric blasting is piss.

Also Mind Probe is a 5th-level Telepath power. Not dime-a-dozen, but hardly enough to tip the scales on his own, and Redcloak didn't even know if the setting had psionics at first so...