Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament

[pendell]

If the hobgoblins can't develop an arcane caster internally, maybe they can outsource; Contract to a human or drow or other species caster, using the mercenary paradigm I described before. Someone very like Z'zdtri, ready to pitch in for a lump sum payment or a share in the magic items or revenge or just for the fun of it. It's just a matter of finding a caster who is 1) Available for hire 2) powerful enough to contribute to the effort 3) Not so powerful as to try to take over the whole show for their own evil overlord fantasies. Maybe a few mid-to-high level casters with hobgoblin 'bodyguards' who can both protect them from the Azurites while also serving as insurance should the mercs get ideas. This is essentially how Redcloak recruited Xykon in the first place.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[dancrilis]

There's also one at the end of SoD. But "not worth a damn" included low-level in my mind.

I suppose this depends on how ist is read - 'not worth a damn' vs 'not worth a damn'*.
*from the prespective of conducting the ritual

On review you likely meant the second rather then the first.

Do you mean the psion they got to probe O-Chul? Does that count as arcane? If not, I don't recall.

I meant the mentioned 18th level incarnum user - but mistake on my part as I just confirmed and turns out incarnum is not arcane magic which I thought it was.

[danielxcutter]

Incarnum is a non-core system like psionics and invocations. And well, it's kinda weak. Not quite as bad as truenaming, but Incarnates are incredibly front-loaded and don't age that well, Totemists are basically Wildshape-as-a-class and the only non-core class to be illiterate, and Soulborn is piss. Like, "down there with Monk" levels of piss. And at least some builds can work with Monk levels.

An Incarnum user that level would probably be more like Roy or Elan. Not useless, but not exactly the kind of magical powerhouse needed for a siege like that.

[hungrycrow]

If the hobgoblins can't develop an arcane caster internally, maybe they can outsource; Contract to a human or drow or other species caster, using the mercenary paradigm I described before. Someone very like Z'zdtri, ready to pitch in for a lump sum payment or a share in the magic items or revenge or just for the fun of it. It's just a matter of finding a caster who is 1) Available for hire 2) powerful enough to contribute to the effort 3) Not so powerful as to try to take over the whole show for their own evil overlord fantasies. Maybe a few mid-to-high level casters with hobgoblin 'bodyguards' who can both protect them from the Azurites while also serving as insurance should the mercs get ideas. This is essentially how Redcloak recruited Xykon in the first place.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

I mean theoretically they could do this, but it being very unlikely is probably why they hadn't already been trying to do that before Team Evil showed up. Threading the needle on how powerful the mercenaries need to be is pretty difficult. A couple levels makes a lot of difference, both because they get more impactful spells, and because they're less likely to die to a defending adventurer and stop contributing. A handful of midlevel mercs would add a lot less to the war effort than a couple around Redcloak's level. Also, remember that the Azurites can shop for mercenaries too and probably have more resources to spend.

[Fyraltari]

But the Azurites can hire mercenaries too. And I would suspect the Azurites have significantly more dough and connections than the gobbos.

Also, mercenaries are notoriously unreliable, prone to just walk out with the cash or even sell themselves to the ennemy if they're not confident in your abilities to win.

But way more importantly, it's been made clear that the higher-level the adventurer, the more expensive it is to hire them. Redcloak recruited Xykon by promising him world domination. And he was lying. How much could the former supreme leader offer to drow casters-for-hire?

[pendell]

But way more importantly, it's been made clear that the higher-level the adventurer, the more expensive it is to hire them. Redcloak recruited Xykon by promising him world domination. And he was lying. How much could the former supreme leader offer to drow casters-for-hire?

A share in the spoils. If some noble family in Azure City has the Orb Of Super Awesomeness locked up in an anti-magic treasure vault which your caster desperately wants but can't obtain through normal means, they can join up with you and be part of the plundering army. You get the city, they get their trinket. Everybody wins! Well, apart from the ordinary citizens of Azure City, of course, but if you cared about them you wouldn't be launching an assault in the first place.

Come to think of it, this is the plot of a couple D&D adventures. In the old Dragonlance stories, Fistandantilus created an army to assault the Mountain Dwarvish stronghold of Thorbardin on behalf of the Hill Dwarves. He did this not because he gave a tinker's curse for the hill dwarves or the justice of their cause, but simply as a way to force the Mountain Dwarves out of an outlying fortress which contained a dimensional portal he desperately wanted access to. All kinds of human adventurers joined up with the army as well on the promise of the loot of Thorbardin once won. They also didn't especially care for the justice of the cause, but saw fighting as a better alternative then starving in the immediate post-Cataclysm era.

My understanding is that before the modern age most armies were paid in exactly that way ; Soldiers who received a regular salary for their work were the exception. In armies less disciplined than the Roman, it was more like a gang of land pirates, where anyone could join up on the promise of their pick of the loot from a victorious battle. It wasn't until the modern era that soldiers were regularly paid and looting was outlawed.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Ionathus]

A share in the spoils. If some noble family in Azure City has the Orb Of Super Awesomeness locked up in an anti-magic treasure vault which your caster desperately wants but can't obtain through normal means, they can join up with you and be part of the plundering army.

If Xykon desperately wanted the Orb of Super Awesomeness, he would fly in and take it, eradicating anyone who annoyed him and vanishing before the authorities arrived. Maybe bring a few zombie ogres to smash the anti-magic crystals/walls/shoebox if that's an added obstacle.

The only reason Xykon needed the army in the first place is because it was not a prize he could just fly in and swipe. As Fyraltari said, (morally questionable) epic-level arcane casters don't take jobs. If they want something, they take it. If taking it requires an army for whatever reason, they hire (or conscript/enslave/conjure/create) the army, not vice versa.

[pendell]

If Xykon desperately wanted the Orb of Super Awesomeness, he would fly in and take it, eradicating anyone who annoyed him and vanishing before the authorities arrived. Maybe bring a few zombie ogres to smash the anti-magic crystals/walls/shoebox if that's an added obstacle.

The only reason Xykon needed the army in the first place is because it was not a prize he could just fly in and swipe. As Fyraltari said, (morally questionable) epic-level arcane casters don't take jobs. If they want something, they take it. If taking it requires an army for whatever reason, they hire (or conscript/enslave/conjure/create) the army, not vice versa.

Which is why, if I were a hobgoblin general, I would be looking to hire mid- to high- level casters who I could control to some extent, not epic-levels who could take over the army or go off and do their own thing against orders. Xykon did both those things.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[danielxcutter]

Which is why, if I were a hobgoblin general, I would be looking to hire mid- to high- level casters who I could control to some extent, not epic-levels who could take over the army or go off and do their own thing against orders. Xykon did both those things.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

That IS what mid-high level casters can do. Kingdoms in this setting literally fall on the whims of adventurers.

[Fyraltari]

A share in the spoils. If some noble family in Azure City has the Orb Of Super Awesomeness locked up in an anti-magic treasure vault which your caster desperately wants but can't obtain through normal means, they can join up with you and be part of the plundering army. You get the city, they get their trinket. Everybody wins!

That "if" is doing a lot of work here. I mean is your position really "The hobgoblins could totally hire high-level mercenary casters to fight Azure City. Provided there happens to be a band of high-level, morally dubious casters in the area who just happen to be looking for a specific artefact inside Azure City that they can't get otherwise"? Because I don't think it would be an exageration to say that takes us back in "the hobgoblins don't stand a chance against Azure City unless the stars align in their favour" territory. And even of all that happened, you know what would most likely happen? The Evil Adventurers would contact Shojo and agree to turn against the hobgoblins had the most opportune moment for the Azurites for the low, low cost of one Orb of Super Awesomeness. Because it means they can get what they were after that more easily. And then they'd loot the hobgoblins for pocket change.

My understanding is that before the modern age most armies were paid in exactly that way ; Soldiers who received a regular salary for their work were the exception. In armies less disciplined than the Roman, it was more like a gang of land pirates, where anyone could join up on the promise of their pick of the loot from a victorious battle. It wasn't until the modern era that soldiers were regularly paid and looting was outlawed.

Uh, no. Most armies were made of conscripts who didn't ask to be there, their local lord just ordered them to. And yes, they were paid. In food mostly but also money. The plundering was a way to keep them motivated some more/a tactical choice to shorten supply lines. And most generals throughout history have been wary of mercenaries precisely because of how untrustworthy they are.

And most importantly that's for the rank-and-file troops, not a band of specialist your entire strategy hinges on.

[dancrilis]

I think that a hobgoblin leader could have taken Azure City without Redcloak or Xykon or other high level adventurers with the battle being fairly quick - but it is dependant on tactics that would take a while to setup.

For instance we know that Azure City was concerned about ghouls - could a hobgoblin leader form an alliance with a ghoul pack and sacrifice a few hundred of his own people to bulk up the ranks (much like Redcloak did).
Seperately we know that Azure City's second line of defence was weaker then the first could a hobgoblin leader have sent a lot more in via whatever method Redcloak used to open a second wave attack behind the defenders (what Redcloak initially wanted Xykon to do), perhaps.
We know that aquatic goblins are a thing and that Azure City has an expansive sewer system if an alliance can be formed then that opens a new avenue of attack that Redcloak didn't exploit - and largely it would be against the families of the guys who were defending the wall - likely causing chaos in the ranks of the defenders.
... etc.

Of course this relies on things that we don't know if Azure City was prepared to counter and on the likely diplomacy of a potential Hobgoblin leader - but I don't think that Xykon and Redcloak were needed except for that they were effectively using a solution that was mostly brute force, more complex strategies might have opened Azure City up just as well at a lower power level.

[hroþila]

Usually, if you need to come up with super convoluted and ultra specific scenarios where something or someone might not have been needed, that means that something or someone was very much needed.

[dancrilis]

Usually, if you need to come up with super convoluted and ultra specific scenarios where something or someone might not have been needed, that means that something or someone was very much needed.

I'm not sure if this is intended as a responce to me or not - but in case it is, I don't regard 'open up a second/third line of surprise attack via the sewers or from the sea' or 'ally with people who are willing to help you' as falling into 'super convoluted and ultra specific'.

Suspect that you were actually refering to the plan for hiring high level people using a potentially non-existant plot device, but just wanted to mention in case I was misunderstood.

[Metastachydium]

For instance we know that Azure City was concerned about ghouls - could a hobgoblin leader form an alliance with a ghoul pack and sacrifice a few hundred of his own people to bulk up the ranks (much like Redcloak did).

Ghouls have no special defensive capabilities like DR, they are not particularly meaty and they are only dangerous if you let them get uncomfortably close. Without a breach, focused fire from the Azurite archers would have likely made short work of a few hundred ghouls.

Seperately we know that Azure City's second line of defence was weaker then the first could a hobgoblin leader have sent a lot more in via whatever method Redcloak used to open a second wave attack behind the defenders (what Redcloak initially wanted Xykon to do), perhaps.

The second line was not inherently weaker, it's just that the first line was better guarded. More importantly, Redcloak had to tell that to the (apparently) highest ranking military commander from Hobgoblin City, so it would be a stretch to take it for granted that they would have come up with the idea without his help.

We know that aquatic goblins are a thing and that Azure City has an expansive sewer system if an alliance can be formed then that opens a new avenue of attack that Redcloak didn't exploit - and largely it would be against the families of the guys who were defending the wall - likely causing chaos in the ranks of the defenders.

The Hobgoblin City had no access to the sea and to even initiate talks with the aquatic goblins they would have had to send small taskforces to long treks through enemy territory. It's hard to coordinate with allies if communication is as severely hindered as that. (Of course, a high level caster could solve that problem, but that would bring us back to square one).

[dancrilis]

Ghouls have no special defensive capabilities like DR, they are not particularly meaty and they are only dangerous if you let them get uncomfortably close. Without a breach, focused fire from the Azurite archers would have likely made short work of a few hundred ghouls.

Worst case you could simple hide them with your normal troops - but that would be a terrible use for ghouls.

The second line was not inherently weaker, it's just that the first line was better guarded. More importantly, Redcloak had to tell that to the (apparently) highest ranking military commander from Hobgoblin City, so it would be a stretch to take it for granted that they would have come up with the idea without his help.

This is where it depends on the hobgoblin leader in question comes in - a smart one of low power might do much better then a higher level one who doesn't spend the time to consider all potential options.

The Hobgoblin City had no access to the sea and to even initiate talks with the aquatic goblins they would have had to send small taskforces to long treks through enemy territory. It's hard to coordinate with allies if communication is as severely hindered as that. (Of course, a high level caster could solve that problem, but that would bring us back to square one).

If they ally with ghouls they could simply walk on the bottom of a river bed until they get to the ocean and deliver a message, seperately we know that some hobgoblins clerics have water breathing so you wouldn't even need a middleman to faciliate - you could just rely on clerics of The Dark One.

I wasn't listing a definative 'certain win' list more that there are seemingly gaps in Azure City that could perhaps be exploited by an enterprising hobgoblin leader.

[Metastachydium]

Worst case you could simple hide them with your normal troops - but that would be a terrible use for ghouls.

Yeah. Also, if they use ladders (there's no breach in this scenario) it will quickly become immediately apparent where the ghouls are.

This is where it depends on the hobgoblin leader in question comes in - a smart one of low power might do much better then a higher level one who doesn't spend the time to consider all potential options.

True, but we know that their leadership was not really up to the task, and we know that hobgoblins take their chains of command very seriously (to the point of suicidal stupidity).

If they ally with ghouls they could simply walk on the bottom of a river bed until they get to the ocean and deliver a message, seperately we know that some hobgoblins clerics have water breathing so you wouldn't even need a middleman to faciliate - you could just rely on clerics of The Dark One.

Well, walking in a river is not trivially easy and walking upriver is a pain. It would take days to deliver messages and there would still be a risk that the messengers are intercepted without the hobgoblin leadership even realizing it, especially if water breathing clerics are used (they need sleep and the spell doesn't last forever).

I wasn't listing a definative 'certain win' list more that there are seemingly gaps in Azure City that could perhaps be exploited by an enterprising hobgoblin leader.

Okay, that's fair, but those chances are really slim.

[danielxcutter]

Okay, but without Team Evil the hobgoblins could have ten times their numbers and I’d still put my money on the Azurites+Order. Heck, maybe even without the Order.

[brian 333]

Run it as a campaign and see what happens.

This kind of discussion was the beginning of more than one Battle Systems scenario back in the day, and sometimes we'd replay them to try alternate strategies.

And yes, I would have won the Siege of Stivic if it hadn't been for that damned elf and his brass dragon friend!

But I'm not bitter about it after all these years.

Damned elf.

[hungrycrow]

This is where it depends on the hobgoblin leader in question comes in - a smart one of low power might do much better then a higher level one who doesn't spend the time to consider all potential options.

I wasn't listing a definative 'certain win' list more that there are seemingly gaps in Azure City that could perhaps be exploited by an enterprising hobgoblin leader.

This sounds like another aspect of the Hobgoblins needing an equivalent to Team Evil. Redcloak was uniquely clever in exploiting those gaps, and smart enough to make another experienced commander play the watson. It's not so easy to find an equally smart leader.

[arimareiji]

Run it as a campaign and see what happens.

This kind of discussion was the beginning of more than one Battle Systems scenario back in the day, and sometimes we'd replay them to try alternate strategies.

And yes, I would have won the Siege of Stivic if it hadn't been for that damned elf and his brass dragon friend!

But I'm not bitter about it after all these years.

Damned elf.

Wait, Vaarsuvius-at-the-end-of-this-comic has a brass dragon friend?* (^_~)

_{* - just a bad play on words about the (transitional?) state of V's soul at that exact moment in time}

[dancrilis]

This sounds like another aspect of the Hobgoblins needing an equivalent to Team Evil. Redcloak was uniquely clever in exploiting those gaps, and smart enough to make another experienced commander play the watson. It's not so easy to find an equally smart leader.

Not really.

Spoiler: HTPGHS

Show

The previous leader of the Hobgoblins was a careful and patient planner, had he decided to take over Azure City he may have beenb perfectly capable of strategy and tactics, feints and bluffs and shell games.

[hungrycrow]

Not really.

Spoiler: HTPGHS

Show

The previous leader of the Hobgoblins was a careful and patient planner, had he decided to take over Azure City he may have beenb perfectly capable of strategy and tactics, feints and bluffs and shell games.

Haven't read that so don't know how smart that guy was. Being careful and patient certainly leads to good tactics, but also the azurites were expecting the hobgoblins to fight like that. You kind of need out of the box thinking to get past defenses. Hard to evaluate how unique that would be, but at the very least I'd say Redcloak is probably the only person who'd think of using nonclassical elementals. The whole shell game thing was also out-of-the-box enough to get past Roy and Hinjo initially, who are both good tacticians.

[danielxcutter]

Not really.

Spoiler: HTPGHS

Show

The previous leader of the Hobgoblins was a careful and patient planner, had he decided to take over Azure City he may have beenb perfectly capable of strategy and tactics, feints and bluffs and shell games.

Careful and patient planning is hardly a substitute for a bunch of powerful spells, especially when one of the guys with a bunch of powerful spells is in charge of such planning as well.

[Peelee]

Haven't read that so don't know how smart that guy was.

Baving read that book, he was pretty dang smart.

[hungrycrow]

Baving read that book, he was pretty dang smart.

Perhaps I should get around to reading it; it's about time I throw some money Rich's way.

[Metastachydium]

Baving read that book, he was pretty dang smart.

Careful and patient planning is hardly a substitute for a bunch of powerful spells, especially when one of the guys with a bunch of powerful spells is in charge of such planning as well.

Daniel has quite a point there. What are the chances that the previous guy was smart enough to negate both Azurite lines of defense and effortlessly slaughter pretty much all the casters and half-casters that the city had to offer? Because Team Evil did just that, and in most part through heavy use of high level spells.

[hungrycrow]

Daniel has quite a point there. What are the chances that the previous guy was smart enough to negate both Azurite lines of defense and effortlessly slaughter pretty much all the casters and half-casters that the city had to offer? Because Team Evil did just that, and in most part through heavy use of high level spells.

I think the idea is talking about tactics as separate from casting. Something like the hobgoblins having a genius but lower-level commander with a bunch of mid-level mercenary casters instead of Team Evil.

If it's as Peelee and dancrilis say i suppose I have to grant the hobgoblins being able to get a commander of Redcloak's caliber.

[Fyraltari]

Then again, the former Supreme Leader is a pretty smart guy, but he's also very much not a soldier. Political savy doesn't necessarily translates to tactical insight.

[danielxcutter]

Daniel has quite a point there. What are the chances that the previous guy was smart enough to negate both Azurite lines of defense and effortlessly slaughter pretty much all the casters and half-casters that the city had to offer? Because Team Evil did just that, and in most part through heavy use of high level spells.

And Redcloak was fairly smart as well; so the argument that Team Evil was strong in magic but poor in tactics wouldn't be right either.

[georgie_leech]

And Redcloak was fairly smart as well; so the argument that Team Evil was strong in magic but poor in tactics wouldn't be right either.

Particularly since, given his goals at the time, his meatgrinder approach was working, and he changed his tactics (to other still viable tactics) because of a crisis of morality rather than any tactical concern.