OOTS #1235 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

That could be resolved with "party wizard cast Greater Magic Weapon on the blade".


The main hint that it went from "nonmagical" to "+5" is here

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html

Huh. You know I always interpreted that as it going from a plus four to plus five, since that would be a 25% increase. T never occurred to me that might indicate going for my 20 to a 25 in d20.

I personally support the "went from +4 to +5" theory.

I just looked at your signature and seriously read "Magicae Est Potatoes". Which opens a lot of room for speculation about a former world filled with conscious vegetables and fruits.

Hah! We've already made that joke ourselves a few times.

The comic had a massive level jump for Xykon retroactively. Whereas before it was feasible Roy didn't have a magic sword (because they were low level dungeon crawlers), now its more feasible that Xykon has some Superb Shatter epic spell, researched and designed solely to be a git to anyone fighting in melee.

Also I think Rich was never that strict about the rules back then, or really ever. Remember how V used Evard's Black Tentacles on Trigak?

The possibility of it was raised for this world, in "That's The Spirit" in GGGU. Not just conscious but Evil.

...Huh?

[bunsen_h]

The possibility of it was raised for this world, in "That's The Spirit" in GGGU. Not just conscious but Evil.

...Huh?

Spoiler: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished

Show

Death bananas. With little scythes.

[hamishspence]

Also I think Rich was never that strict about the rules back then, or really ever. Remember how V used Evard's Black Tentacles on Trigak?

That can be resolved with "V used the Greater Shadow Conjuration version - which is an illusion spell"


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sh...ionGreater.htm

V would only need to be 13th level to cast it.

[arimareiji]

I personally support the "went from +4 to +5" theory.

Ditto

Hah! We've already made that joke ourselves a few times.

As a Latin nerd the ae/as combo and word order bug me, which is probably why I hadn't noticed Potestas is close to an anagram of Potatoes. But certainly worth notice. (^_^)b

Also I think Rich was never that strict about the rules back then, or really ever. Remember how V used Evard's Black Tentacles on Trigak?

Technically an off-brand borderline-Evil hentai spell, so maybe the spell creator in the Stickverse wrote it to grab even flying critters if they're within reach.

...Huh?

Haven't read it myself, but it sounds like this means that GGGU featured an Evil vegetable.
_{(Like f'rinstance Brussels sprouts if you ask me, but that could be a genetic taste mutation.)
Edit: Ah, ninjaed, thank you. (^_^)b}

[Spartan360]

Belkar and Elan reminding me of why those two are my favorites.


Shame about not seeing the potato part though, could have been a decent cutaway to just add to the moment of levity.

[PontificatusRex]

Dang, major points to Belkar for being exactly right about what Roy and Durkon were thinking.

[Mariele]

What the hell, has Belkar taken a level in Psionic that we don't know about and is altering the spell to his will?

Poor Elan. I feel sorry for him, it's a shame everyone else has to be, well, prepared for a fight.

Loved it, feels like a peanuts strip with that face.

Very much enjoyed each character's responses to Elan.

Hah, you're right! Probably why I liked that face so much.

[hamishspence]

I personally support the "went from +4 to +5" theory.

The Giant said at the time that:

Yeah, players I have played with usually try to metagame the plusses on swords by referring to their "precentage increase in accuracy" based on the idea that each +1 on a d20 roll was a 5% increase. So you'll get conversations like:

Bob: Girolous, tell me, how much better than a standard bow is your elven longbow?
Tim: Why, it is 15% better than a nonmagical one, Firion, why do you ask?
Bob: I wish to enchant it further with a spell that will increase its effectiveness to 20% greater accuracy.
Tim: Outstanding!
Bob (to the DM): I cast Greater Magic Weapon for +4 enhancement bonus on Girolous' bow.
DM: Grumble.

If each +1 is "5% increase" then 5 +1s are "25% increase".

[danielxcutter]

As a Latin nerd the ae/as combo and word order bug me, which is probably why I hadn't noticed Potestas is close to an anagram of Potatoes. But certainly worth notice. (^_^)b

Ah, there's a funny story about that title; the writer of the Artemis Fowl series was apparently not as fluent as Latin. The family motto of the Fowl family is "Aurum Est Potestas", which is grammatically incorrect as you note but is supposed to mean "Gold Is Power".

The title of the fic is an intentional parallel to that; "magic is power". Post-Pacifist Run, Post-The Last Guardian, on a bit of a hiatus but Somnium's got the outline for the next channel finally, probably a bit darker than most post-Pacifist fics.

Apparently it's quite good.

[Kaed]

My first thought when I read this strip was it felt like kind of a letdown, nothing important was said and the plot did not advance. The strip is just one long gag about Elan's difficulties with sitting quietly that kind of broke the momentum of the fairly interesting sociopolitical discussion going on previously.

But I see a lot of people saying they appreciated the break it gave in the serious tone of the previous comics.

I guess I can understand the sentiment, but I was actually fairly interested in that more serious tone and hope that this strip at least leads to something where Elan has some kind of personal development or epiphany due to being forced to sit down and think to himself for probably the first time in a while. Otherwise this page just feels like a total tonal derailment that is there for the sake of someone thinking a random tone break was needed, like a comedy act intermission in the middle of a political documentary.

[Neoriceisgood]

I can see Roy's sword being excellent for culinary purposes.

[CountDVB]

My first thought when I read this strip was it felt like kind of a letdown, nothing important was said and the plot did not advance. The strip is just one long gag about Elan's difficulties with sitting quietly that kind of broke the momentum of the fairly interesting sociopolitical discussion going on previously.

But I see a lot of people saying they appreciated the break it gave in the serious tone of the previous comics.

I guess I can understand the sentiment, but I was actually fairly interested in that more serious tone and hope that this strip at least leads to something where Elan has some kind of personal development or epiphany due to being forced to sit down and think to himself for probably the first time in a while. Otherwise this page just feels like a total tonal derailment that is there for the sake of someone thinking a random tone break was needed, like a comedy act intermission in the middle of a political documentary.

I do believe this moment of levity would count as bathos in regards to storytelling. I mean, it is still, as Thor put it, a "self-aware stick figure fantasy parody."

Cutting back to others waiting does release the built-up tension and point out the oddity of stuff. Although, I am now curious; the dialogue exchange between V and Elan reveals that Elan once borrowed the Greenhilt sword to peel potatoes, but the way V mentions the meal was excellent, that implies that Elan was the one who cooked the meal. Does this mean Elan knows how to cook well? I mean it wouldn't be out of the question give his mother works as a barmaid and while 3.5e stuff is not my forte, such as cross-class skills, would cooking be one for a bard?

[hamishspence]

I mean it wouldn't be out of the question give his mother works as a barmaid and while 3.5e stuff is not my forte, such as cross-class skills, would cooking be one for a bard?

Belkar has "Profession - gourmet chef" so "Profession - cook" would be a plausible option - and Profession is a class skill for Bards.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm

Class Skills
The bard’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

However, Elan's WIS is thought to be abysmal by the rest of his party.

[CountDVB]

Belkar has "Profession - gourmet chef" so "Profession - cook" would be a plausible option - and Profession is a class skill for Bards.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm

Class Skills
The bard’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

However, Elan's WIS is thought to be abysmal by the rest of his party.

Well, his Wisdom has gone up considerably over the last bit of comics. And Belkar is able to be a gourmet chef despite having a really abysmal Wisdom score (and one of the few things he takes seriously too). So maybe Elan has like two ranks in Cooking or something?

[Wizard_Lizard]

Ayyy some much needed comic relief! Pun most definitely intended!

[Jayrius]

My first thought when I read this strip was it felt like kind of a letdown, nothing important was said and the plot did not advance. The strip is just one long gag about Elan's difficulties with sitting quietly that kind of broke the momentum of the fairly interesting sociopolitical discussion going on previously.

But I see a lot of people saying they appreciated the break it gave in the serious tone of the previous comics.

I guess I can understand the sentiment, but I was actually fairly interested in that more serious tone and hope that this strip at least leads to something where Elan has some kind of personal development or epiphany due to being forced to sit down and think to himself for probably the first time in a while. Otherwise this page just feels like a total tonal derailment that is there for the sake of someone thinking a random tone break was needed, like a comedy act intermission in the middle of a political documentary.

While it's true that nothing important for the story happened in this strip, I read it as a analogy to what extroverts like Elan struggle with during a lockdown. Getting your energy from contact with others is quite hard when you can't go out, everybody else is too busy for virtual meetings/ telepathic conversation and you suddenly are alone with yourself. But that is just my interpretation.

edited for additional sentence

[Petrocorus]

*Monty Python video*

I side with Palin here, this is not an argument.

The head needs to be on the line, to open the portal back. It only lasts 20 seconds, too:

What i don't get is why she needs to hold it like this. She could lay it on her lap, that wouldn't make much difference.

Eh, seems a bit more Neutral than Evil. Note: having Neutral thoughts does not mean said being is Neutral, though I think Belkar's closer to CN than he was at the beginning.

Indeed. I do wonder if we'll see his ring of Protection against Evil suddenly stop hurting him. Probably right before the end.

NBITP

May i ask you what NB means in this instance?

[TuringTest]

Ok, this was worth a good chuckle.

I often wonder the opposite, how people like Elan can live with a compelling need to share everything that goes through their heads.

Although, I am now curious; the dialogue exchange between V and Elan reveals that Elan once borrowed the Greenhilt sword to peel potatoes, but the way V mentions the meal was excellent, that implies that Elan was the one who cooked the meal. Does this mean Elan knows how to cook well? I mean it wouldn't be out of the question give his mother works as a barmaid and while 3.5e stuff is not my forte, such as cross-class skills, would cooking be one for a bard?

Belkar has "Profession - gourmet chef" so "Profession - cook" would be a plausible option - and Profession is a class skill for Bards.

Well, his Wisdom has gone up considerably over the last bit of comics. And Belkar is able to be a gourmet chef despite having a really abysmal Wisdom score (and one of the few things he takes seriously too). So maybe Elan has like two ranks in Cooking or something?

There's another likely possibility: that Elan did the peeling and Belkar did the cooking.

[pendell]

Is it me, or do I get a vibe that the giant may also be commenting on his endeavour to communicate his thoughts through the comic, and the occasionally harsh reception thereto?
Or at the very least the endeavour of artistic expression in general.

Not really. Each of the party members are reacting "in character". Roy and Durkon have highly developed consciences, so they worry and fret about things and are wont to find fault with themselves. Belkar doesn't care. No one else besides Elan has leisure for any thoughts beyond preparation for their confrontation with an epic-level lich, and Elan's thoughts are not notable for anything save being silly.

Although, actually, I think Roy and Durkon would do well to bring Elan into their conversation. Elan is by no means an intellectual, but he does have a solid gut-level grip on what right and wrong are.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[rbetieh]

Well, his Wisdom has gone up considerably over the last bit of comics. And Belkar is able to be a gourmet chef despite having a really abysmal Wisdom score (and one of the few things he takes seriously too). So maybe Elan has like two ranks in Cooking or something?

Funny thing about Wisdom. It's hard to really imagine it as a stat score, since true Wisdom comes from Experience. Luckily, at least for the Bard class, that is kind of built in. Bards get bonuses to Will save (wisdom based) and bardic knowledge so for that class, above all others Wisdom does come from Experience. For fighters, no matter how hard you hit things, you will still struggle understanding WHY you hit things unless you are a natural.

[toodeep]

It occurs to me that the team is making a huge strategic mistake here just to get a tactical advantage.

If they pop out of wherever they are now and attack Zykon as he passes by on his way out, it may give them a tactical advantage in the fight, but it draws attention to the area and how they did that. It may cause team evil to detect the traps that are working on them and keeping the gate safe. It seems careless to endanger the gate when there appears to be a protection that is actually working just for a fleeting tactical advantage.

[CountDVB]

Not really. Each of the party members are reacting "in character". Roy and Durkon have highly developed consciences, so they worry and fret about things and are wont to find fault with themselves. Belkar doesn't care. No one else besides Elan has leisure for any thoughts beyond preparation for their confrontation with an epic-level lich, and Elan's thoughts are not notable for anything save being silly.

Although, actually, I think Roy and Durkon would do well to bring Elan into their conversation. Elan is by no means an intellectual, but he does have a solid gut-level grip on what right and wrong are.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Yeah though also Haley could add. Haley did grow up in Greysky City and thus know about the shady stuff of life along with showcasing the stresses of living in a hostile environment and how that shapes you to be distrustful, along with showing how messed up that makes. Elan meanwhile could also note the nature of story elements and how that would work along with his own experiences. After all, he has seen Hinjo be hamstrung by political BS and likely point out that is why the good gods can't just do anything. That and well, how best the story could go.

[Riftwolf]

Just a thought: does the Telepathy spell allow for psychic partitions like this comic suggests? Do participants have to subvocalise towards their targets?

[Mariele]

Although, actually, I think Roy and Durkon would do well to bring Elan into their conversation. Elan is by no means an intellectual, but he does have a solid gut-level grip on what right and wrong are.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Didn't the man blow up a castle filled with living creatures for the lulz.

I'm still looking forward to seeing how all of the party members react to this new topic, eventually.

[KorvinStarmast]

Didn't the man blow up a castle filled with living creatures for the lulz.

He did indeed, thanks to a childish desire to emulate a Vin Diesel movie. Let's take a look at Hanlon's Razor:

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity

In the dictionary of familiar quotations, Elan's face sits above that entry.

[Quizatzhaderac]

For fighters, no matter how hard you hit things, you will still struggle understanding WHY you hit things unless you are a natural.

You hit things because they are moving and you don't want them to be.

Didn't the man blow up a castle filled with living creatures for the lulz.

He knew perfectly well that the castle wouldn't blow up until just after everyone got out.

Or if you're unwilling to accept genre savviness as knowledge, there's no reason to expect the self destruct spell to work as if a mechanical clock was triggered. The spell simply waited for everyone who was trying to flee to get out. Then Elan stopped fleeing and the Dungeon immediately exploded.

[Rhyvurg]

Once again based Belkar is the only one making sense. If they care so much about the goblins' problems, try telling them who's actually responsible so they lash out at the right person, rather than victimize innocent people. Who in their right mind would feel sympathy for them at this point?

[Robots]

Didn't the man blow up a castle filled with living creatures for the lulz.

I mean, Elan's definitely matured since those days. He's still pretty goofy and childish, but I think he's come a long way from "follow my impulses because it would be cool".

[PontificatusRex]

It occurs to me that the team is making a huge strategic mistake here just to get a tactical advantage.

If they pop out of wherever they are now and attack Zykon as he passes by on his way out, it may give them a tactical advantage in the fight, but it draws attention to the area and how they did that. It may cause team evil to detect the traps that are working on them and keeping the gate safe. It seems careless to endanger the gate when there appears to be a protection that is actually working just for a fleeting tactical advantage.

You seem to be assuming that there would be an "after". I'm sure the Order is assuming that they have one chance - they defeat Xykon, or they lose and all die. And if that's the case, no one else is coming to stop him so eventually Team Evil would figure everything out regardless.

[Ruck]

It occurs to me that the team is making a huge strategic mistake here just to get a tactical advantage.

If they pop out of wherever they are now and attack Zykon as he passes by on his way out, it may give them a tactical advantage in the fight, but it draws attention to the area and how they did that. It may cause team evil to detect the traps that are working on them and keeping the gate safe. It seems careless to endanger the gate when there appears to be a protection that is actually working just for a fleeting tactical advantage.

I wouldn't call it a strategic mistake, so much as a risk they are willing to take in order to destroy Xykon. If they win the fight, there's no Team Evil to find the gate.

Oh, right, or I could have just quoted this:

You seem to be assuming that there would be an "after". I'm sure the Order is assuming that they have one chance - they defeat Xykon, or they lose and all die. And if that's the case, no one else is coming to stop him so eventually Team Evil would figure everything out regardless.

Once again based Belkar is the only one making sense. If they care so much about the goblins' problems, try telling them who's actually responsible so they lash out at the right person, rather than victimize innocent people. Who in their right mind would feel sympathy for them at this point?

Huh?

Never mind, I don't think I should try to parse a calculus where the Chaotic Evil team member is "based."