OOTS #1235 - The Discussion Thread

[Petrocorus]

I really wanted Banjo the Clown to make an appearance at the end. ah well, there is still time :)

Given OotS cosmology, Giggles could actually end up becoming a real god at some point.

[F.Harr]

Going from deep philosophical musings to undercutting those musings to hilarious character growth. That's how I like my OotS. :)

[tanonx]

Given the nature of the complaints about the strip and that the people who were making them barely if at all commented on the actual comic before or since-- or in any way that wasn't to voice their complaints that, essentially, "How dare you make me think about things!", I'm comfortable with the more cynical view.

I mean, I was going to keep my impatience with a third page of even-less-plotty talk to myself, but if them's the rules, I suppose. Ahem...

"I would like if some action came up next page. This seems like we're spending a lot of time tying up forum complaints in-strip, and maybe preemptively explaining why everyone in the Order is about to get bushwhacked successfully and/or that time is passing. I'd rather see the story play out, and mop up complaints after."

Doesn't seem worth the text, really.

[Ruck]

I mean, I was going to keep my impatience with a third page of even-less-plotty talk to myself, but if them's the rules, I suppose. Ahem...

"I would like if some action came up next page. This seems like we're spending a lot of time tying up forum complaints in-strip, and maybe preemptively explaining why everyone in the Order is about to get bushwhacked successfully and/or that time is passing. I'd rather see the story play out, and mop up complaints after."

Doesn't seem worth the text, really.

I also think most of the complaints are not really regarding how the strips will fit into the final story and in book format; but still, it's only been a few pages of talking. By my count, we're 46 strips into the final book? Overall it's still been pretty action-heavy for how early in the book we are, although a more action-packed final book is also to be expected, given that everything is headed to the series climax.

[mjasghar]

I mean, if everything was black-and-white, what would Neutral be for?

And there’s literally 3 different LG planes depending on wether you’re more lawful or more good yet you’re still LG.

[Taevyr]

Roy's greatsword was obviously magical before Xykon destroyed it: it's the one thing that made it a great sword

[mjasghar]

Roy's greatsword was obviously magical before Xykon destroyed it: it's the one thing that made it a great sword

Reminds me of a certain movie with Samuel l Jackson

[Dr.Zero]

To be fair, the spell description could be cleaner; like repeating "a single solid, nonmagical object" from the lede sentence instead of using "a single solid object" where it describes the single-target effect.

Alternative 1: shatter works differently from the rules (and we have plenty of examples)

Alternative 2: an epic researched version of shatter, which can shatter even magical objects and is generally more powerful. I'm not sure that would be the most useful use of an epic spell for a sorcerer, but I'd say it depends on how much you manage to make it stronger than basic version: if one can shatter all magical weapons of the heroes with a single area spell, for example, it wouldn't be bad at all.

"We quested for years, but now we collected the Infinite+1 Sword of killing The Evil Lich, the Hammer which works almost like Thor's one, the Daggers of Psionic Kickassing and the Baubles of More Arcane Power. Be ready for your doom, your end is nigh!"

"I've two words to say about this: Superb Shatter!"

[danielxcutter]

If Xykon's petty enough to research Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage(and Sorcerers are still limited by their spells known, remember!) then I can totally buy him researching Xykon's Greater Shatter for the purposes of destroying enemy weapons. He doesn't use weapons and I don't think loot's as important to him as it is for adventurers.

[arimareiji]

If Xykon's petty enough to research Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage(and Sorcerers are still limited by their spells known, remember!) then I can totally buy him researching Xykon's Greater Shatter for the purposes of destroying enemy weapons. He doesn't use weapons and I don't think loot's as important to him as it is for adventurers.

Touché. I could actually see him naming it the "Ha Ha Ha Eff You" spell. (^_~)

[Ionathus]

I mean, I was going to keep my impatience with a third page of even-less-plotty talk to myself, but if them's the rules, I suppose. Ahem...

"I would like if some action came up next page. This seems like we're spending a lot of time tying up forum complaints in-strip, and maybe preemptively explaining why everyone in the Order is about to get bushwhacked successfully and/or that time is passing. I'd rather see the story play out, and mop up complaints after."

Doesn't seem worth the text, really.

People always seem quick to assume that Rich is actively reading these forums and taking notes about "plot holes" (i.e. things that 1 or 2 vocal posters didn't like) so that he can address all of them in the next strip. I get that he's been an active participant on the forums in years past, so it's not like there's no precedent for this.

But consider for a brief moment, if you will, an alternative possibility: Rich was always going to have Elan and Belkar poke fun at Durkon & Roy's silent moralizing. That's what I would do if I was shifting perspective to the comic relief characters after several pages of high-concept talk.

While we are important to the comic as an entire audience that reads and supports and promotes OotS en masse, I think we flatter ourselves by imagining that each forum poster's individual concerns or opinions have any affect on how Rich chooses to tell his story. That's drifting into a parasocial fandom mentality, and IMO the forums are all the poorer for it.

[danielxcutter]

I also remember something on the lines of Rich actively avoiding the forums, though that was more about seeing guesses about the plot that are actually right and having a kneejerk reaction to want to change it or something.

[mjasghar]

There’s also the issue that there’s a history of people on other writers fan forums posting stuff and then claiming the author stole their idea.

[Worldsong]

And how some of the posts Rich has responded to in the past probably have given him a strong desire to not have to keep doing that in the future.

[Vikenlugaid]

The exact words were that there would be a "corresponding enhancement to damage", not "equal" or "equivalent" much less "25%". "Corresponding" is a pretty loose term.

It never occurred to me that that conversation could imply anything other than that the sword was non-magical before. It was described as "everday [sic] terrestrial steel", which I suppose doesn't necessarily mean that it was non-magical. If a magical weapon is broken and then repaired, does it regain/retain its magic?

Roy blows off the smith's attempt to explain how the "deadly green energy" effect could be counteracted. This suggests (weakly) that Xykon might find a way to protect himself, and also raises the possibility that Roy might find himself in a situation of not wanting to have the effect go off, but not knowing how to exert that control. Something along the lines of wanting to subdue Xykon without destroying him, maybe? -- I'm not familiar with the details of subduing opponents even as they apply to older versions of D&D, let alone in 3.5e.

I still can't believe Horace Greenhilt, known as the great hero of his time, used a normal greatswors as main weapon.

[Kish]

The Giant said at the time that:



If each +1 is "5% increase" then 5 +1s are "25% increase".

Yeah, I didn't (and still don't) think there was any ambiguity. Each point on a d20 has a 5% chance of coming up; "+25% increase in accuracy" is +5. I blinked when people started talking about 25% as a percentage of the sword's entirely hypothetical previous enchantment.

[danielxcutter]

I still can't believe Horace Greenhilt, known as the great hero of his time, used a normal greatswors as main weapon.

Not to mention that dragons tend to have DR/magic.

[Ionathus]

I still can't believe Horace Greenhilt, known as the great hero of his time, used a normal greatswors as main weapon.

Not to mention that dragons tend to have DR/magic.

Maybe he had a feat/other magic items that made his greatsword attacks magical? Or had his own minor Weapon of Legacy thing going on? I'm not convinced the Greenhilt Blade was nonmagical, but that would be one scenario where it could be.

Mechanics aside, the idea that this mighty hero won all these battles with a nonmagic greatsword would just increase his badass status all the higher.

[Fyraltari]

I still can't believe Horace Greenhilt, known as the great hero of his time, used a normal greatswors as main weapon.

I don't think, he was the great hero of his age. For one thing, he was contemporaries to the Order of the Scribble (I think, the calendar's a bit wonky) for another we've never seen anybody react to Roy's last name by mentionning him in any way.

Edit: as to why he wouldn't use a magical sword instead of the Greenhilt sword. Well, it's the Greenhilt sword, his family is named after it, it's important to him. Sometimes you make choices that aren't the best tactically but still makes sense to you.

[danielxcutter]

I don't think, he was the great hero of his age. For one thing, he was contemporaries to the Order of the Scribble (I think, the calendar's a bit wonky) for another we've never seen anybody react to Roy's last name by mentionning him in any way.

The Scribblers intentionally remained obscure, and it seems like the Spellspinter Maneuver is virtually extinct by now except for Roy.

[Fyraltari]

The Scribblers intentionally remained obscure, and it seems like the Spellspinter Maneuver is virtually extinct by now except for Roy.

I don't see you point.

[danielxcutter]

Horace was probably still one of the greatest fighters of his day, is what I'm saying.

[Dr.Zero]

I don't see you point.

That as the last person knowing one lost (and effective) skill that other fighter know only by name he had to be quite badass.
About being renowned, that's harder to tell: but he saved a princess and Reddragonsville from a Red Dragon.
And then saved again Reddragonsville from a Green Dragon, which, for some reasons, was harder to defeat than the red one.
He had to be the equivalent at least of a local hero.

(Being unknown to the general public matters little: X was unknown to Azurite nobles, apparently, and yet he has some 20+ levels a powerful template, had his own dungeons, and so on)

[Doug Lampert]

People always seem quick to assume that Rich is actively reading these forums and taking notes about "plot holes" (i.e. things that 1 or 2 vocal posters didn't like) so that he can address all of them in the next strip. I get that he's been an active participant on the forums in years past, so it's not like there's no precedent for this.

But consider for a brief moment, if you will, an alternative possibility: Rich was always going to have Elan and Belkar poke fun at Durkon & Roy's silent moralizing. That's what I would do if I was shifting perspective to the comic relief characters after several pages of high-concept talk.

While we are important to the comic as an entire audience that reads and supports and promotes OotS en masse, I think we flatter ourselves by imagining that each forum poster's individual concerns or opinions have any affect on how Rich chooses to tell his story. That's drifting into a parasocial fandom mentality, and IMO the forums are all the poorer for it.

I'm particularly impressed when Rich rather obviously goes OUT OF HIS WAY to set up a question, and then when he answers it next comic, someone says "Hey! He's answering the forum posts about this."

No, Rich is a good writer, he anticipates the really obvious reactions, especially when he sets them up. In this case, he has multiple characters argue about the goblin's status in various ways, he doesn't need to read the forums to know that there would be such an argument on the forums and people who disagree with his presentation and conclusions, nor does he need to have read the forums to decide to leave the agonizing over stuff and return to comedy for a strip or two prior to whatever comes next (presumably Serini ambushes them, but that's just one possibility).

Note: To my recollection, it is not true that Rich does not read the forums, summon Banana III, what he said is that he only checks the first couple of pages of each reaction thread to make sure that the comic is showing up for everyone and that there are no obvious typos. So he is aware of some of the reactions on the forum, I just don't think the forum is necessary for him to anticipate obvious reactions.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I'm going to bet that the green dragon did something to disenchant the Greenhilt, which is why the fight was so hard for Roy's grandfather.

May be they were greatpotatoes.

As opposed to small potatoes.

[Jasdoif]

I'm particularly impressed when Rich rather obviously goes OUT OF HIS WAY to set up a question, and then when he answers it next comic, someone says "Hey! He's answering the forum posts about this."

No, Rich is a good writer, he anticipates the really obvious reactions, especially when he sets them up. In this case, he has multiple characters argue about the goblin's status in various ways, he doesn't need to read the forums to know that there would be such an argument on the forums and people who disagree with his presentation and conclusions, nor does he need to have read the forums to decide to leave the agonizing over stuff and return to comedy for a strip or two prior to whatever comes next (presumably Serini ambushes them, but that's just one possibility).

Note: To my recollection, it is not true that Rich does not read the forums, summon Banana III, what he said is that he only checks the first couple of pages of each reaction thread to make sure that the comic is showing up for everyone and that there are no obvious typos. So he is aware of some of the reactions on the forum, I just don't think the forum is necessary for him to anticipate obvious reactions.

You're probably thinking of this:

I didn't know there was any such speculation. I don't read the forum anymore, beyond the threads about products and the first few posts of a new comic thread (so I can make sure other people are actually seeing the posted comic).

It's just a logical point that needed to be made in the scene, given that all other paladins so far have had mounts.

However I think these two are more informative on the general subject:

Lol. My thoughts EXACTLY.
I expect to see some Author Commentary in the next book on this very page; "Now everyone on the forums had their panties in a twist with what Crystal was, how she got there, and who brought her back. There was so much arguing and speculation, I decided "Screw IT!" and just cast 'Summon Plot Exposition!"

No. More like when I introduce something that's not immediately apparent, I always have a plan for, at some point, explaining what's going on—it's just that everyone spends all their energy arguing about it from the moment it shows up that by the time I get around to explaining, everyone else is so sick of arguing and speculation that they project their feelings on to me.

I'm explaining these things now because to not do so at some point would be a glaring omission, nothing more. What people speculate about on the forum doesn't really matter to me very much. If I really just wanted to shut up forum-goers, I would just post a clarification here, not spend comic time explaining something that I don't think needs explaining.

For example, people have been confused about how Bozzok found them, and I assure you no explanation is forthcoming in the comic beyond the information already revealed, because it can be easily deduced and it doesn't need further dwelling upon for the story to make sense.

...I don't mind the analysis (or overanalysis) of the comic anymore because I simply have too many other things to worry about. People are going to say what they are going to say. Some of the things that they say will be insightful; most will be run-of-the-mill; others will be utterly insipid. I don't even read most of what is posted here. There was a time when I would get very angry about people guessing the exact plot before it came to pass, but even that doesn't bother me anymore, simply because there are so many guesses that someone was bound to stumble upon the right answer some of the time.

[Petrocorus]

If Xykon's petty enough to research Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage(and Sorcerers are still limited by their spells known, remember!) then I can totally buy him researching Xykon's Greater Shatter for the purposes of destroying enemy weapons. He doesn't use weapons and I don't think loot's as important to him as it is for adventurers.

IIRC, spells a Sorcerer research and design himself doesn't count against his limit of spells known.

[danielxcutter]

IIRC, spells a Sorcerer research and design himself doesn't count against his limit of spell known.

A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table: The Bard or Table: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list he now knows. With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of.

Technically there are ways they can learn more spells(such as certain feats or prestige classes), but not through research.

[bunsen_h]

IIRC, spells a Sorcerer research and design himself doesn't count against his limit of spell known.

That doesn't seem to be mentioned in the SRD.

[Petrocorus]

Technically there are ways they can learn more spells(such as certain feats or prestige classes), but not through research.

I stand corrected.
Must have been thinking to another class.