OOTS #1235 - The Discussion Thread

[Jasdoif]

Must have been thinking to another class.

Psionics, possibly.

[Fyraltari]

That as the last person knowing one lost (and effective) skill that other fighter know only by name he had to be quite badass.

Huh, no?
We don't even know Horace was the last one to know that move, just that it was forgotten between his death and now. He may have been third-to-last to know it. And even then being the last one to know it isn't proof of being badass, in fact it more likely points to very few people wanting to learn it. Which makes sense considering it was parried literally the second time we saw it used.

Which is not to say Horace wasn't a badass, as a high-level fighter he most certainly was. But we don't have any reason to think he was the most badass warrior of his generation. The Order of the Scribble was made up of Epic adventurers and they all (except Kraagor obviously) ended up with a private fortress and an army/vast array of monsters.

About being renowned, that's harder to tell: but he saved a princess and Reddragonsville from a Red Dragon.
And then saved again Reddragonsville from a Green Dragon, which, for some reasons, was harder to defeat than the red one.
He had to be the equivalent at least of a local hero.

Yeah, a local hero, not "the Hero of the Age", it's been made pretty clear in this comic that there are a lot of heroes all having suitably impressive adventures at the same time.

I don't think Horace was a world-famous hero because he really doesn't need to be. He's important to the Greenhilts and that's enough for the story. He's Roy's model as a good man and badass single-classed Fighter and another link in a chain of poor father figures.

[danielxcutter]

Psionics, possibly.

Huh, I thought psionics forbid you from using research to get around the power known limit, but I guess it's more about just not stealing other powers from different lists.

[Jasdoif]

Huh, I thought psionics forbid you from using research to get around the power known limit, but I guess it's more about just not stealing other powers from different lists.

Annoyingly, there is a sentence to that effect in the XPH, but it's rather hidden at the end of the guidelines for research, which is probably why it got excluded from the SRD; at the very least arguable either way, especially since powers can't be retrained like spontaneous spellcasters can do with their spells and the XP cost for power research (successful or not) is a more limiting factor for characters than a gold cost would be.

[Squire Doodad]

Yeah, a local hero, not "the Hero of the Age", it's been made pretty clear in this comic that there are a lot of heroes all having suitably impressive adventures at the same time.

I don't think Horace was a world-famous hero because he really doesn't need to be. He's important to the Greenhilts and that's enough for the story. He's Roy's model as a good man and badass single-classed Fighter and another link in a chain of poor father figures.

Odds are he's an upper-mid or high level single-class fighter, stronger than Roy but not Epic. It's possible the Spellsplinter technique was handed down through the generations and was his signature move, and thus he could be the same level as Roy but heavily invested into that move and related techniques, but without any evidence to that end I'd argue he had a few levels over dead-Roy and so had filled up that entire line of abilities.

He might have been the Greatest Fighter On The Northern Continent TM at one point, but I agree he probably wasn't the top tier person of unspeakable legend.

[goodpeople25]

Annoyingly, there is a sentence to that effect in the XPH, but it's rather hidden at the end of the guidelines for research, which is probably why it got excluded from the SRD; at the very least arguable either way, especially since powers can't be retrained like spontaneous spellcasters can do with their spells and the XP cost for power research (successful or not) is a more limiting factor for characters than a gold cost would be.

Don't some psionic classes have access to retraining the power?

[Kish]

I'm more confused about what purple is. Is there some master thread about text colors and what they mean?

Red means moderator action.

Nothing else means anything, except that if you post with colors other than standard (black) excessively you shouldn't be surprised if you find the words "excessive formatting" in red on one of your posts, if you take my meaning.

[Squire Doodad]

I'm more confused about what purple is. Is there some master thread about text colors and what they mean?

Red means moderator action.

Nothing else means anything, except that if you post with colors other than standard (black) excessively you shouldn't be surprised if you find the words "excessive formatting" in red on one of your posts, if you take my meaning.

Some people like myself use certain colors to denote a specific tone, but it's usually in moderation. A lot of the time it's mentioned in their sig; blue in particular seems to be consistently sarcasm but I've seen plenty of meanings behind all sorts of colors. Though no one uses red because it's mod writing

Of course, as Kish said, making your every post look like a Lisa Frank knockoff is problematic.

[Quizatzhaderac]

.....unspeakable legend.

Like the giant dwarf?

[Metastachydium]

Like the giant dwarf?

That's not a legend. That's an oxymoron.

[KorvinStarmast]

That's not a legend. That's an oxymoron.

No, that's Minrah.

[Metastachydium]

No, that's Minrah.

Hm. You are bringing interesting point of view to what is left of table.

[Quizatzhaderac]

That's not a legend. That's an oxymoron.

The giant dwarf is like the unspeakable legend in that they're both oxymorons.

[Edreyn]

And I liked Mynrah. Who could think that she is oxymoron.

[Fyraltari]

The giant dwarf is like the unspeakable legend in that they're both oxymorons.

[Nitpick]
"Legend" means "worthy of being read about", you don't actually have to speak it out loud.[/Nitpick]

[Metastachydium]

[Nitpick]
"Legend" means "worthy of being read about", you don't actually have to speak it out loud.[/Nitpick]

(Technically, it means '[stuff that] should/has to be read'.)

Edit: How dare you correct your post while I'm typing!

[Fyraltari]

(Technically, it means '[stuff that] should/has to be read'.)

Edit: How dare you correct your post while I'm typing!

Libel! You have no evidence!

[Quizatzhaderac]

[Nitpick]
"Legend" means "worthy of being read about", you don't actually have to speak it out loud.[/Nitpick]

Basically all oxymorons can be explained in some way.

The giant dwarf is a temporarily enlarged member of a short species.
The married bachelor is the not-quite-done-divorcing star of a the reality TV show The bachelor. (or a douchebag)

The unspeakable legend still raises the question of exactly how and why this person is "unspeakable".

Were they a great librarian, and to honor them the world only tells their story in quiet libraries?

Were they, like Khraggor, the subject of a good story that people don't tell for non-literary reasons?

Were they, like Voldemort, widely discussed, but the name itself was cursed?

[Petrocorus]

Psionics, possibly.

That's probably that.
Though using high level shenanigans to get unlimited spells known is more fun.

[tanonx]

I also think most of the complaints are not really regarding how the strips will fit into the final story and in book format; but still, it's only been a few pages of talking. By my count, we're 46 strips into the final book? Overall it's still been pretty action-heavy for how early in the book we are, although a more action-packed final book is also to be expected, given that everything is headed to the series climax.

Yeah, I can't really say I think a lot about the book format concern, though I suppose if I did, I'd prefer the slower strips be part of the bonus material in there, where they'd help with pacing, and set the reader up for that ambush tension. With webcomic time in effect, it's less tense, more a matter of patience.

But, with the end looming, I'm eager to see how all the various loose ends come together, and increasingly aware of how much (or little) space is left to do it in. This might be partially caused by how many questions I have in mind that would be answered by "wait and see, it'll all come together" too. Elan being Elan for a page is probably just more appealing to someone with different expectations, which is reasonable. I'm certainly not the only reader, or even a common one I suppose.

Plus, whatever's on the other side's going to be totally cool, right? Can't wait to see it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Basically all oxymorons

Eventually post at GiTP.

[bunsen_h]

But, with the end looming, I'm eager to see how all the various loose ends come together, and increasingly aware of how much (or little) space is left to do it in.

It'll take as long as it takes Rich to tell the story as he wants. There isn't a deadline or hard limit. It's not like Cerebus, where the author declared fairly early on that the series was going to end after exactly 300 issues.

(Not at all like Cerebus, thank goodness. It had some good periods, but it probably holds the record for totally irrelevant "side quests" on the part of an author in the middle of a story. A couple of hundred pages to explore an in-universe version of Oscar Wilde, another couple of hundred on an analogue of F. Scott and Zelda Fitzgerald. Plus a lot of misogyny and other distasteful stuff, which got worse over the years. I kept reading it longer than I should have, another example of the sunk-cost fallacy.)

As long as Rich doesn't run out before the story does, of course.

[ebarde]

Ok, so it's hard to judge because we're being drip fed page by page but uh...I definetly feel the pacing is really off. We had a pretty big exposition dump with Serini which was fine, but then the scene ends with a cliffhanger where she's seemingly about to take on the order. Then we cut to the order talking about their past adventures and there's a lot of self reflection about how far they've come. This is good stuff as we're on the final book, and having a somewhat heartfelt moment right after Serini taking off amps the tension as she could show up at any moment. It's also good to have a calm before the storm moment, as surely a lot of action is about to go down.

But then we get uh...2 extremely lengthy dialogue scenes about goblins which could have probably been either moved elsewhere or at least being somewhat compressed or even have some of it be given to the Redcloak and Durkon dialogue? I guess it's important that the gods make their case, but I feel all those dialogue heavy stuff should have been given more room to breathe considering how many we've had back to back. And now we get what is admitedly a pretty heartwarming scene with Elan, but at the same time it feels kinda kills even more any sense of tension created by Serini's impending attack on the order. I feel that even in book format this whole stretch of pages would be pretty hard to swallow.

[Squire Doodad]

Ok, so it's hard to judge because we're being drip fed page by page but uh...I definetly feel the pacing is really off. We had a pretty big exposition dump with Serini which was fine, but then the scene ends with a cliffhanger where she's seemingly about to take on the order. Then we cut to the order talking about their past adventures and there's a lot of self reflection about how far they've come. This is good stuff as we're on the final book, and having a somewhat heartfelt moment right after Serini taking off amps the tension as she could show up at any moment. It's also good to have a calm before the storm moment, as surely a lot of action is about to go down.

But then we get uh...2 extremely lengthy dialogue scenes about goblins which could have probably been either moved elsewhere or at least being somewhat compressed or even have some of it be given to the Redcloak and Durkon dialogue? I guess it's important that the gods make their case, but I feel all those dialogue heavy stuff should have been given more room to breathe considering how many we've had back to back. And now we get what is admitedly a pretty heartwarming scene with Elan, but at the same time it feels kinda kills even more any sense of tension created by Serini's impending attack on the order. I feel that even in book format this whole stretch of pages would be pretty hard to swallow.

I think the idea is that this is setting up Serini to spook the party, so the goal is to lull the reader slightly instead of raise suspense.
Also, if I had to guess this is meant to be happening while O-Chul and Lien are talking to Serini, so once she's revealed she'll mention "I teleported just in time" or something.

That said, this is definitely feeling stretched out. I like the conversations as a whole, but the Durkon and Roy convo in particular could probably have been halved without losing much.

[danielxcutter]

I personally agree with the message given in the past two comics, but yes I do suppose it was a bit long. I really hope the next comic does have epic rogue ambushing.

[Squire Doodad]

I personally agree with the message given in the past two comics, but yes I do suppose it was a bit long. I really hope the next comic does have epic rogue ambushing.

I can live with another page or two of finishing up various convos, but only if Serini alludes to a timestamp that'd make this all fit together.
Like "it's been 5 seconds since she warped" insterad of "Serini apparently warped 5 minutes ago and has been fiddling with her darts until now"

[Fyraltari]

But then we get uh...2 extremely lengthy dialogue scenes

Serini left a grand total of 7 strips ago.
This is, at worst a moderately-lengthy dialog piece for this comic.

I can live with another page or two of finishing up various convos, but only if Serini alludes to a timestamp that'd make this all fit together.
Like "it's been 5 seconds since she warped" insterad of "Serini apparently warped 5 minutes ago and has been fiddling with her darts until now"

I mean, Kraagor's tomb is a pretty big place, she has to find where exactly they are and get there before she can attack, I don't think 5 minutes is a too long a time for that to happen.

[Ruck]

I can live with another page or two of finishing up various convos, but only if Serini alludes to a timestamp that'd make this all fit together.
Like "it's been 5 seconds since she warped" insterad of "Serini apparently warped 5 minutes ago and has been fiddling with her darts until now"

Serini left a grand total of 7 strips ago.
This is, at worst a moderately-lengthy dialog piece for this comic.

I mean, Kraagor's tomb is a pretty big place, she has to find where exactly they are and get there before she can attack, I don't think 5 minutes is a too long a time for that to happen.

It wouldn't exactly be unprecedented for strips to happen concurrently, either.

In other words, I don't think the Order was sitting around waiting to think at each other until Serini and the paladins finished their scene. (I will grant you whatever time Commune takes.)

[Robots]

To be honest, I'm not bored by this update. I know my clichés well enough to understand that Elan is tempting fate to drop something on him by saying stuff like how he's getting bored and antsy. Something exciting is probably gonna happen next strip.*

*Don't take my word on this as fact

Also, as an unrelated comment, I'd like to say that I like Minrah's expression in panel 5.

[KorvinStarmast]

To be honest, I'm not bored by this update. I know my clichés well enough to understand that Elan is tempting fate to drop something on him by saying stuff like how he's getting bored and antsy. Something exciting is probably gonna happen next strip.*

At least he has upgraded from "Dun Dun, Dun!"