I Can't Believe It's Not An Index CCXXXIII - Jasdoif's Random Banter #233

[Jasdoif]

Welcome, fellow sapients and/or automatons, to yet another edition of Random Banter. No, we don't trade quips about the Mersenne Twister (that I know of); we banter about random topics, on the scale that doesn't call for full-fledged dedicated threads (that we know of).

Spoiler: Painstakingly Crafted Compendium of the Glory of Random Banter, or Iterative Historical Relic That I Copied Out of the Last Thread? YOU Decide

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[LaZodiac]

The only good to come from my debilitation is that once, I threw a water bottle and after bouncing it landed perfectly straight up as if it was placed there. I cheered, and this sadly never happened again... yet.

[Peelee]

Well that snuck up on me.

[Tvtyrant]

The only good to come from my debilitation is that once, I threw a water bottle and after bouncing it landed perfectly straight up as if it was placed there. I cheered, and this sadly never happened again... yet.

Reminds me of Dave's perfect potatoe throw in Taskmaster. You get a perfect shot just once.

[Rater202]

Q7uoting myself from the last thread

Being a mastermind sure is easy when good is dumb and evil has read the script, sure.

It's not so much that good is dumb so much that good has no reason to suspect that Evil is sitting at the breakfast table plotting against them.

The Jedi became alienated because they believed that their work was done: The very early days of the Republic, it was ruled by the Jedi but eventually, they stepped back to become advisors and peacekeepers.

Then centuries ago they thought the Sith were all wiped out.

It becomes very easy to just... sit back and let the Republic take care of itself, only coming out when the Chancellor wants your wisdom or here's an incident that's escalated to the point that violence is imminent, and just focus on self-improvement and training the next generation of monks.

When everything's perfect, you need to find ways to be productive. Without regular mental stimulation, you start to deteriorate. Complacency is one of the sources of anomie, and generations of anomie lead to the breakdown of culture and society.

In the case of the jedi, this breakdown manifested in them being too comfortable in their ivory tower, becoming more insular and dogmatic and then they get taken by complete surprise and are willing to engage in moral compromise to solve a problem they never saw coming.

[Lord Raziere]

....They can detect that Anakin is Force Sensitive by just being in the same room with him, but they can't do the same for Palpatine? Seems inconsistent.

[Peelee]

....They can detect that Anakin is Force Sensitive by just being in the same room with him, but they can't do the same for Palpatine? Seems inconsistent.

They didn't seem to have any idea when they were in Watto's shop, or on the walk home. They only began to think that once Anakin talked about pod racing.

[Tvtyrant]

....They can detect that Anakin is Force Sensitive by just being in the same room with him, but they can't do the same for Palpatine? Seems inconsistent.

Almost like one is a barely trained young adult and the other is in their prime after a decades long apprenticeship.

[Rater202]

....They can detect that Anakin is Force Sensitive by just being in the same room with him, but they can't do the same for Palpatine? Seems inconsistent.

Being force sensitive is not the same as being able to use the force.

IIIRC in the original(Legends) canon Han was force sensitive but unable to use it.

So even if they register Palpatine as Force Sensitive, that's just "oh well, we must have missed a kid"

Assuming, of course, that Palpatine isn't able to hide his presence in the force. It's called "The Darkside" because it's users are adept at hiding in the shadows.

To use a deliberately simplified example: The Lightside is a balanced tool kit, a tool for every occasion. The dark side is a stealth bomber. Very subtle and hard to find up until they blow something straight to hell.

It should also be noted that Anakin was absurdly powerful with the force, even as a child, and was actively using it in subtle ways as easily and with as little thought as breathing. He'd be impossible to miss, once you actually started looking.

[Lord Raziere]

Almost like one is a barely trained young adult and the other is in their prime after a decades long apprenticeship.

From the entire Jedi Order? On the same planet? While using the force to manipulate everything else? while training like, two to three apprentices, thus breaking the Rule of Two?

I dunno seems edging into "he succeeds because the plot says he should."

[Peelee]

IIIRC in the original(Legends) canon Han was force sensitive but unable to use it.

Nope. Not in anything that I remember. Han was never Force Sensitive.

The dark side is a stealth bomber. Very subtle and hard to find up until they blow something straight to hell.

Nope. Dark sides are by and large just as visible. The Emperor was a special case (effectively because the plot wanted him to be)

It should also be noted that Anakin was absurdly powerful with the force, even as a child, and was actively using it in subtle ways as easily and with as little thought as breathing. He'd be impossible to miss, once you actually started looking.

Nope. He accomplished minor feats like being able to pod race with faster reflexes, but was not absurdly powerful - at the height of his power, he still lost to Kenobi and was fairly evenly matched.

And, again, the Jedi couldn't tell he was Force Sensitive until he told them about his pod racing.

[Anonymouswizard]

I thought it was 'the dark side' because the creator is from a culture that aligns darkness to danger and evil?

On the other hand, even if force sensitivity is a think you can sense that's different to being able to sense how strong somebody is with the Force, and it's possible that the Jedi knew that Palpatine was force sensitive. So what, a decent minority of senators probably are on some level and they have no reason to suspect he's trained in its use.

As to Han, I wouldn't be surprised if new canon makes him a Force Sensitive or even a weak, unconscious Force User. Even if he has Skywalker potential he's not the kind of person who'd want to become a Jedi, and it would explain his uncannily good abilities at intuition, marksmanship, and piloting. I suspect the same will be revealed of Flynn if it hasn't already, that you don't have to be a Jedi to use the Force you can just be really good at something because you're able to hear it's guidance.

[Tvtyrant]

From the entire Jedi Order? On the same planet? While using the force to manipulate everything else? while training like, two to three apprentices, thus breaking the Rule of Two?

I dunno seems edging into "he succeeds because the plot says he should."

That's what the Force is though? It is literal plot magic, it changes what and how it works between each movie over a long series.

I don't disagree that Palps is given too much power in the prequels, but it has the side problem of them having made the Jedi an all powerful order of galactic super-paladins and they have to lose somehow. It is the Inverse Ninja Law writ large; the more Jedi there are the stronger Palpatine has to be to be able to beat all of them.

[Lord Raziere]

Nope. He accomplished minor feats like being able to pod race with faster reflexes, but was not absurdly powerful - at the height of his power, he still lost to Kenobi and was fairly evenly matched.

Yeah, To quote Jolee Bindo:

"Sometimes swirling Force is just swirling Force. It gets all us old Jedis excited at our age so we go 'Oooo, destiny!'"―Jolee Bindo

Jolee: I was just about to abandon Andor to whatever the Force intended for him when his ship was overtaken by a Dimean warship. Now, you've probably never heard of the Dimeans, but at the time they were a nasty lot led by a nastier overlord named Kraat. Tall fellow. Big teeth. Kraat has us hauled onto the bridge of his ship for questioning, and that's when I knew that Andor's destiny was at hand.
Revan: Andor killed Kraat, I take it?
Jolee: Of course he did! Haven't you been listening? It was not in the way you'd probably expect, though.
Jolee: Well, Andor decides that his destiny makes him invulnerable and starts making all sorts of demands. Free me now, I'm not answering questions, blah blah blah. Don't you know who I am? Kraat decides he's had enough and begins crushing Andor's neck. I told the boy he should have kept his mouth shut. I think he agreed, too… or those could have just been gurgling noises. Well… well, anyway. Finally, Kraat has enough of Andor and tosses him aside into this giant energy intake shaft. Andor gets sucked in and starts bouncing around, heh, screaming… heh. Maybe Andor hit something sensitive on the way down or just didn't agree with the reactor core, next thing I know all the ship's alarms are ringing.
Revan: You're kidding…
Jolee: Everyone panics and I run, barely making it to the ship in time before the explosion. Kraat dies horribly, and the Dimeans never quite recovered. Changed the political course of the entire sector for centuries to come. I'd call that quite a destiny, wouldn't you?
Revan: But how can you even be sure Andor was responsible?
Jolee: What?! Are you kidding?! What are the odds of that happening, anyway? A billion to one? You should do so well as to be sucked into the engine of some evil Sith Lord, you know. Andor was a hero… sort of.

Great destinies in the Force don't really mean your competent or powerful. Just that your destined to cause something great to happen somehow.

[Rater202]

Nope. Dark sides are by and large just as visible. The Emperor was a special case (effectively because the plot wanted him to be)

"It's called the dark side of the Force because it's secretive. That's all. The Sith kept their knowledge and identities hidden—in the dark, see? They thought it made it easier to impose order."

Granted, Doctor Aphra is Disney canon, but still.

but was not absurdly powerful - at the height of his power, he still lost to Kenobi and was fairly evenly matched.

The midischolirina's scene begs to differ.

A lot of people don't understand midicchlrian, so for the sake of people reading along: Midichlroians are life-giving microbes that resid within the cells of all organic living beings, similar to real life mitochondria and chloroplasts.

They do not "create" the force, but are able to communicate with the will of the force, and use the fore, and are concentrations of them in your body are what make some people more sensitive tot the force than others.

Everyone is born with a certain number of them per cell on average, but if you're sensitive enough to use the force and use the force regularly, they will replicate within your body allowing you to slowly gain more over time, and thus become more sensitive to, and these able, to use the force.

So, when Qui-Gon decides to sit Anakin down and take a midichorlian count to put an exact number on the boy's potential and it comes back saying is count is higher than Yoda's—Yoda who started out strong in the force and has spent the better part of nine centuries using training in various ways of using the force, that is note worthy.

Keep in mind, in the entire original trilogy the single quantifiable feat was Yoda, who at this point was in his last days of life, casual lifting Luke's fighter out of the swamp.

Yoda was the 'powerful one,' so saying that Anakin's power is greater than Yoda's is a big deal.

And, again, the Jedi couldn't tell he was Force Sensitive until he told them about his pod racing.

Hence "when they started looking."

[Peelee]

Granted, Doctor Aphra is Disney canon, but still.

Dr. Aphra is not exactly an expert on the Force, much less specific aspects of it. She can have her opinion. Which is counteracted by stories of the actual Jedi and Sith in both Legends and Canon.

The midischolirina's scene begs to differ.

He was a remarkably underpowered Jedi if midichlorians equate to power.

[LaZodiac]

All this talk about magical lightning powers that change due to how of a rude boy you are reminds me of "inFamous", where the only reason why Cole can't use his super evil killy lightning is because he just feels kinda bad about doing it, if you're on the good guy route.

[Rater202]

He was a remarkably underpowered Jedi if midichlorians equate to power.

Because he wasn't trained. His force use was subtle and unconscious.

And then progressively more parts of his body were replaced with artificial ones that lacked midichlorians, which at least some legends canon sources, including IIRC the novelization of Revenge of the Sith, state weakened his connection to the force.

I imagine that if he'd only lost the one hand, hen he'd be doing stuff like the "tricking someone into having an extended fight with someone who isn't there from lightyears away" thing by the time he was fully trained.

[Anonymouswizard]

I've always assumed that Anakin had a mixture of hubris and impatience which made him rely on his talent more than actually training, and thus never actually reached the level he could have.

Even if Anakin has more raw power than Yoda (and he seems to have more than Obi-Wan at least) his raw stats are a nice boost but he's still going to need training. He could be the most powerful Jedi ever, but because he assumes he's already the greatest he only ever rose to be one of the top few. He's not the master of anything in particular, and his speciality seems to be the more direct aspects of the Force.

Anakin is also really, really unsuited to the Jedi as they are in the PT. He's just not cut out to be a monk. This probably affects his willingness to train.

[Rater202]

I've always assumed that Anakin had a mixture of hubris and impatience which made him rely on his talent more than actually training, and thus never actually reached the level he could have.

Even if Anakin has more raw power than Yoda (and he seems to have more than Obi-Wan at least) his raw stats are a nice boost but he's still going to need training. He could be the most powerful Jedi ever, but because he assumes he's already the greatest he only ever rose to be one of the top few. He's not the master of anything in particular, and his speciality seems to be the more direct aspects of the Force.

Yeah, that too.

Anakin is also really, really unsuited to the Jedi as they are in the PT. He's just not cut out to be a monk. This probably affects his willingness to train.

Yeah, the council was not wrong to deny Anakin training. Anakin needed to learn how to use his abilities if only for his own safety, but he was most certainly not suited to be a Jedi and the Jedi did not know how to handle a child in his situation.

Things may have been better if Qui-Gon had lived. Qui-Gon was willing to bend the rules and provide basic human contact to people who need it, which the Jedi of the prequel era... They weren't opposed to it, but weren't comfortable with it, either.

My understanding is that Qui-Gon had been hoping t train Anakin himself and to tailor Anakin's training to Anakin's needs... But then he died, Obi-Wan got promoted to Knight and was immediately made responsible for Anakin, and being barely a man himself just defaulted to standard practices that just did not work for Anakin.

and The Clone Wars adds a bunch of other examples of the Council... The clones wars, especially towards the end, has a lot of stuff that's basically just retroactively explaining the way Anakin acted in Revenge. Partcularly the way poor ahsoka was treated by the council at the end.

[DavidSh]

What I worry about is how much damage Amazon will do to the Tolkien canon in their coming "Lord of the Rings"-related series. It's supposedly set in the Second Age, but the little information that's leaking out sounds like they are going to have to make up a great deal to fit their story pattern. I suppose there isn't so much to go on in the Appendices and the Akallabeth in terms of detailed story material, if you want character continuity beyond a few elves. And Sauron.

[Peelee]

Because he wasn't trained. His force use was subtle and unconscious.

What? No, I mean in episodes 2 and 3. Super underpowered. Even with the cybernetics (that he got because he was so underpowered to start with, for his midichlorians count).

Either that or midichlorians do not equate to power. One of those two.

[Beeftank]

To be fair he was really young. 9 in phantom menace would mean 22-23 by Revenge of the Sith. Despite starting his training late, by 22 he could go toe-to-toe with just about anybody in the order. I’d say that’s pretty impressive.

[Peelee]

To be fair he was really young. 9 in phantom menace would mean 22-23 by Revenge of the Sith. Despite starting his training late, by 22 he could go toe-to-toe with just about anybody in the order. I’d say that’s pretty impressive.

Could he, though? We see him. Fight exactly two Force users: Dooku, who he lost his hand to, and Kenobi, who he lost all his other limbs to.

[DataNinja]

Oh, hey, new thread!

Oh, hey, new thread that's going to be another 10 pages of Star Wars.

[Beeftank]

Could he, though? We see him. Fight exactly two Force users: Dooku, who he lost his hand to, and Kenobi, who he lost all his other limbs to.

He beat Dooku the second time, and he lost to Kenobi (a Jedi Master) after a long drawn out fight. I would call that going toe-to-toe.

[Peelee]

He beat Dooku the second time, and he lost to Kenobi (a Jedi Master) after a long drawn out fight. I would call that going toe-to-toe.

I wouldn't call a sample size of two "just about anyone in the order". And the fight was only long and drawn out because Lucas had to pad out the movie and figured glowsticks waving around counted as drama.

Spoiler: Lest we forget the ultimate display of combat prowess.

Show

ETA: Though perhaps I'm not being fair there. I will admit there were also gripping shots of hands facing each other. Faster and more intensely, of course.

[Beeftank]

I am getting the distinct impression you are not overly fond of the prequels.

Which is fair. I mean, I liked them, but objectively speaking those movies had some issues.

[Peelee]

I am getting the distinct impression you are not overly fond of the prequels.

Which is fair. I mean, I liked them, but objectively speaking those movies had some issues.

I have them on several different formats and have seen them more times than I can count. I'm simply unafraid of leveling just criticisms against their weaknesses (same as I am with most of the Legends/Star Wars EU in general/George Lucas in particular). The Prequels are above average as far as the old EU went, but that doesn't mean they don't have flaws.

[Keltest]

As far as Anakin goes, i think its fair to say that he's incredibly skilled and talented, but also amazingly arrogant and more than a little stupid. Becoming Vader shakes him of the former, and Palpatine's direction compensates for the latter until he wises up and starts using his brain and not just his force muscles. So he could have beaten Kenobi, in terms of sheer skill, but he wasnt in the right mindset he would need to be to actually correctly apply it to overcome Kenobi.