I Can't Believe It's Not An Index CCXXXIII - Jasdoif's Random Banter #233

[Form]

They would, the sick weirdo. They would.
I'm obviously thinking of some sick and twisted extreme philatelia thing where you stick entire pages of stamps in a single movement.

Now, now, don't kink shame. Slaanesh can handle their stamp collection however Slaanesh likes.

Slaanesh is the most fun of the chaos gods. If I were to worship chaos, I'd probably be a Slaaneshi cultist. Maaaaaybe a Nurgle one because Nurgle is kind of nice. In a way. But Slaanesh knows how to have fun.

[Tvtyrant]

Now, now, don't kink shame. Slaanesh can handle their stamp collection however Slaanesh likes.

Slaanesh is the most fun of the chaos gods. If I were to worship chaos, I'd probably be a Slaaneshi cultist. Maaaaaybe a Nurgle one because Nurgle is kind of nice. In a way. But Slaanesh knows how to have fun.

I would very much like not to be anywhere near Slaneesh thanks.

Nurgle is probably the least awful god, because while psychologically horrible you are numbed to it by its very nature. Khorne is the least squicky.

[Peelee]

Your lifestyle is suboptimal.

Using viruses to induce physiological changes, if you're not trying to just turn the subject into a monster or zombie, has far too high a risk of unwanted side effects, and the more extreme the change the higher the risk of harmful mutations, cancers, or zombie apocalypses.

A virus works best for minor alterations that don't have obvious physiological changes, like CRISPRing in genes from Deinococcus radiodurans to make your cells more resistant to extreme conditions.

With major physiological alterations, you'd want something surgical, something symbiotic, or extensive usage of targetted mutagens with known specific effects to slowly alter the body in the desired way.

Maybe for your pedestrian viruses. I, of course, only use premium viruses.

[Tvtyrant]

Maybe for your pedestrian viruses. I, of course, only use premium viruses.

Are pedestrian and Premium antonyms? Shouldn't it be pedestrian and equine?

[Peelee]

Are pedestrian and Premium antonyms? Shouldn't it be pedestrian and equine?

You assume that equine does not equate to premium. If you tell me you have equine hobbies, or an equine stable, or equine interests, I'm going it assume those are all premium and you pay handsomely for them.

[Rater202]

Maybe for your pedestrian viruses. I, of course, only use premium viruses.

I don't use viruses. Even the so-called premium ones are too unstable and predictable.

I mean, there are a couple of sets of nanomachines that are called viruses but they're really more like techno-organic microparasites and really have very little in common with a true-virus in terms of function beyond the superficial "get into your cells to do it's stuff" similarity.

And using them beneficially is still experimental.

[Anonymouswizard]

I would very much like not to be anywhere near Slaneesh thanks.

Nurgle is probably the least awful god, because while psychologically horrible you are numbed to it by its very nature. Khorne is the least squicky.

Yeah, Slaanesh seems fun, until you get to the numbness stage and need to move on from the noise-activated thumb screws (she is, after all, the god of sensation).

Nurgle legitimately loves you, and at least gives you the fortitude to survive his gifts.

You do not want to know the results of worshipping both of them at the same time.

While it likely makes the gifts come slower Chaos Undivided is probably safer due to not having to get too into the lifestyle emotions of individual god.

[Tvtyrant]

You assume that equine does not equate to premium. If you tell me you have equine hobbies, or an equine stable, or equine interests, I'm going it assume those are all premium and you pay handsomely for them.

It's okay I am a paid cheerleader as a job. I shout myself horse.

Yeah, Slaanesh seems fun, until you get to the numbness stage and need to move on from the noise-activated thumb screws (she is, after all, the god of sensation).

Nurgle legitimately loves you, and at least gives you the fortitude to survive his gifts.

You do not want to know the results of worshipping both of them at the same time.

While it likely makes the gifts come slower Chaos Undivided is probably safer due to not having to get too into the lifestyle emotions of individual god.

Nurgle is life, Nurgle is love. Papa Nurgle knows best.

[Peelee]

I do use viruses. Even the so-called previous ones are too unstable and predictable.

I mean, there's a couple sets of nanomachines that are called viruses but they're really more like techo-organic microparasites and really have very little in common with a true-virus in terms of function beyond the superficial "get into your cells to do it's stuff" similarity.

And using them beneficially is still experimental.

Look, if we're getting into medical fiction like zombies and nanomachines, then there should be zero holdup over me engineering a stable, predictable virus with a mutation chain that behaves exactly as I want it to. It's like that old joke, "D&D has five-ton lizards who fly and shoot fire from their mouths but [ordinary thing] is too unbelievable?" my premium virus is more than stable enough.

[Anonymouswizard]

I mean, real bioengineers use custom built parasites. But I suppose your equine viruses work well enough.

[Rater202]

Look, if we're getting into medical fiction like zombies and nanomachines, then there should be zero holdup over me engineering a stable, predictable virus with a mutation chain that behaves exactly as I want it to. It's like that old joke, "D&D has five-ton lizards who fly and shoot fire from their mouths but [ordinary thing] is too unbelievable?" my premium virus is more than stable enough.

Viruses mutate.

They mutate very fast.

Even if you can engineer a stable virus that does exactly what you want with no side effects, it's not gonna stay like that.

Especially if you make it able to resist your immune system long enough to avoid it being destroyed before it does what you want it to do.

It sounds like fun and games until your start growing tentacles in places where you don't want tentacles. Or until the tentacles turn cancerous because the mutant strain screws with the wrong genes. Or god forbid both.

You start getting headaches, they're real bad, go to the doctor, do some scans, turns out there's a tumor in there that they need to get out asap, they get you into surgery, and just as they remove part of your skull the tumor stretches out and strangles the doctor because it's a tentacle made of brain cancer.

Is that what you want? A doctor to die trying to save your life because you accidentally a brain cancer tentacle?

The best use of viruses is minor things that you know won't go wrong and that will stick without the virus in your system.

[Peelee]

Viruses mutate.

They mutate very fast.

Even if you can engineer a stable virus that does exactly what you want with no side effects, it's not gonna stay like that.

Man if only I had covered that somehow.

Look, if we're getting into medical fiction like zombies and nanomachines, then there should be zero holdup over me engineering a stable, predictable virus with a mutation chain that behaves exactly as I want it to.

Again, we're into the "and yet you don't have issue with the 10,000lb flying fiery lizard?" territory. You're talking about nanomachines and zombies but my premium virus is a step too far.

[Tvtyrant]

So the latest research heavily implies viruses are the descendants of living bacteria that became parasitic enough to no longer apply to the term living. Is this close enough to make them be considered undead?

[Rater202]

Man if only I had covered that somehow.

Again, we're into the "and yet you don't have issue with the 10,000lb flying fiery lizard?" territory. You're talking about nanomachines and zombies but my premium virus is a step too far.

It's easier to program a machine than to program a virus, and your premium virus would probably cause the zombies.

Something like growing a brad new limb is too big. It's too complex, it would require too much. a Virus able to do all of that would have thousands of points of failure where a single unaccounted for mutation would cause the whole process to go horribly wrong and the process of sprouting a limb would take long enough that you'd honestly need toe virus to never leave your system for it to work.

The odds of a tentacle virus going horribly wrong drastically exceed those of nanomachines going horribly wrong, while a symbiote of some kind will probably die of any harmful mutations it develops before they can affect you so as long as you didn't replace a major vital organ with some kind of freaky bug you're fine.

[Tvtyrant]

It's easier to program a machine than to program a virus, and your premium virus would probably cause the zombies.

Something like growing a brad new limb is too big. It's too complex, it would require too much. a Virus able to do all of that would have thousands of points of failure where a single unaccounted for mutation would cause the whole process to go horribly wrong and the process of sprouting a limb would take long enough that you'd honestly need toe virus to never leave your system for it to work.

The odds of a tentacle virus going horribly wrong drastically exceed those of nanomachines going horribly wrong, while a symbiote of some kind will probably die of any harmful mutations it develops before they can affect you so as long as you didn't replace a major vital organ with some kind of freaky bug you're fine.

I don't know man, there is some evidence eyes are spread by viruses. Eyes evolved post-phylum split between Chordates, Echinoderms and Arthropods but they use the same DNA sequence for them, and echinoderms only took them up recently. Something like 13% of DNA is viral in any animal, and we know eye dnas works between phylums that did not have eyes when they broke up.

[Anonymouswizard]

So the latest research heavily implies viruses are the descendants of living bacteria that became parasitic enough to no longer apply to the term living. Is this close enough to make them be considered undead?

Eh, I mean, I personally tend to lump viruses into 'living' just to be nice, but maybe? I've seen them described as biological robots before, and what's a zombie but a robot made out of meat?

[Peelee]

It's easier to program a machine than to program a virus

It's also easier to solve crime with investigative tactics than with reliance on a teenager bittem by a radioactive spider who gains superpowers but you don't seem to object to that.

It's also easier to do calculations by hand than it is to invent a box with sand and lightning in it, and yet here you sit on your computer enjoying the internet.

My premium virus scoffs at your claims of random mutation.

[Rater202]

I don't know man, there is some evidence eyes are spread by viruses. Eyes evolved post-phylum split between Chordates, Echinoderms and Arthropods but they use the same DNA sequence for them, and echinoderms only took them up recently. Something like 13% of DNA is viral in any animal, and we know eye dnas works between phylums that did not have eyes when they broke up.

There's a world of difference between having genes that originally came from viruses and having a live virus in your system constantly altering the genes in your cells to make them develop and replicate in certain ways in the hopes of making a radical physiological change to yourself.

Re: Spider-Man: Not a good counter-example because Spider-Man either 1: Comes across a crime in progress, say, a mugging or a bank robbery, and stops it... Or uses investigative processes to track down the criminal.

When he's n just planting tracking devices on them during a fight so he can find their lairs later.

[Peelee]

There's a world of difference between having genes that originally came from viruses and having a live virus in your system constantly altering the genes in your cells to make them develop and replicate in certain ways in the hopes of making a radical physiological change to yourself.

Re: Spider-Man: Not a good counter-example because Spider-Man either 1: Comes across a crime in progress, say, a mugging or a bank robbery, and stops it... Or uses investigative processes to track down the criminal.

When he's n just planting tracking devices on them during a fight so he can find their lairs later.

There's also a word of difference between computers and nanomachines, yet you have no issue with that. There's also a world of difference between all known biological and medical knowledge and zombies, and yet you have no issue with them. Again, this is a case of taking one specific thing and arbitrarily suggesting it is a bridge too far when you already use plenty of other bridges of equal or even greater length.

Re: Spider-Man, he's a teenager who is a genius at physics. He has zero training in investigating techniques and, to the best of my knowledge, criminal investigations are not something spiders are particularly known for so it probably didn't come from the bite.

[Anonymouswizard]

While the chips are small enough to make nanomachines possible (silicon is less than a percent of your phone or computer), I'm personally uncertain that all the rest of the components would be practically miniaturisable. Plus you'd be building at such a small scale that slight misalignments could have significant effects...

I think that Peelee's premium viruses might be more realistic. You'd probably have to clean out your viral load and interest a new dose fairly regularly, but it actually breaks my WSoD less.

[Jasdoif]

Look, if we're getting into medical fiction like zombies and nanomachines, then there should be zero holdup over me engineering a stable, predictable virus with a mutation chain that behaves exactly as I want it to.

Isn't that kind of like what retroviruses do for gene therapy, anyway?

[Rater202]

There's also a word of difference between computers and nanomachines, yet you have no issue with that. There's also a world of difference between all known biological and medical knowledge and zombies, and yet you have no issue with them. Again, this is a case of taking one specific thing and arbitrarily suggesting it is a bridge too far when you already use plenty of other bridges of equal or even greater length.

Nanomachines and computers are both electronics.
Viruses are, technically, biology.

And XKCD explains why that matters better than I ever could.


I can buy nanomachines being programmed to get into you and reinforce cells structures, help stitch you up, target and destroy bad genes and rearrange the lefovr building blocks into a good replacement... As a machine, even the tiniest computer in the world's behavior is just code.

A virus? Thousands of times longer and way, way worse and that's just making the viru, actually testing how it would react to a human would...

"Zombie" here is referring to your Resident Evil Mutants and your Rage zombies. We're talking infected, not reanimated.

A subject going insane/feral and attacking others, possibly spreading the infection, is more likely than an attempt to completely rebuild someone's body.

Granted, dying horribly is more likely than that, but...

Using viruses for modifications is best used for gene therapy: Virus goes in, inserts gene, the virus gets the hell out before it has time to go horribly wrong.

Also, on the topic of zombies and biology...

For as complicated as biology is, according to virologist Samita Andreandky, the technology exists to take a strain of rabies and modify it with traits of Influenza, measles, encephalitis, and ebola to create a zombie virus.

Now, that's not the same as a virus means to give you tentacles mutating to make zombies, but a zombie virus is real-life plausible science.

And that striking terrifying, ain't it?

(A virus to give you tentacles going horribly wrong, if it didn't kill you, would probably be more like the G-Virus than the T-Virus.)

Re: Spider-Man, he's a teenager who is a genius at physics. He has zero training in investigating techniques and, to the best of my knowledge, criminal investigations are not something spiders are particularly known for so it probably didn't come from the bite.

Peter Parker made a temporary adhesive that is capable of expanding to thousands of times its starting volume and a few pounds of it are able to hold up hundreds of tons of weight or restrain the movements of beings who can exert a kinetic force sufficient to move or destroy hundreds of tons of durable matter.

Read "Mathematically proved the existence of the Immortal Soul and the Afterlife" Richards has failed to replicate it and has expressed interest in having Peter teach him how to make it some time.

Peter did this with things he had in a storebought chemistry set and he did it on a whim and it worked the first time he tried it.

At 15 years of age.

You can't teach that. That's an instinctive, intuitive ability to learn and apply information and make connections between facts.

If Peter can do that, I could see him picking up the gist of the investigative process pretty quickly.

Especially what ith the fact that he works at a NEwspaper that, before Jameson developed his vendetta against Spider-Man, was famed for investigative journalism and he made good friends with many of the journalists who work there.

[Peelee]

Nanomachines and computers are both electronics.
Viruses are, technically, biology.

And XKCD explains why that matters better than I ever could.


I can buy nanomachines being programmed to get into you and reinforce cells structures, help stitch you up, target and destroy bad genes and rearrange the lefovr building blocks into a good replacement... As a machine, even the tiniest computer in the world's behavior is just code.

A virus? Thousands of times longer and way, way worse and that's just making the viru, actually testing how it would react to a human would...

"Zombie" here is referring to your Resident Evil Mutants and your Rage zombies. We're talking infected, not reanimated.

A subject going insane/feral and attacking others, possibly spreading the infection, is more likely than an attempt to completely rebuild someone's body.

Granted, dying horribly is more likely than that, but...

Using viruses for modifications is best used for gene therapy: Virus goes in, inserts gene, the virus gets the hell out before it has time to go horribly wrong.

Also, on the topic of zombies and biology...

For as complicated as biology is, according to virologist Samita Andreandky, the technology exists to take a strain of rabies and modify it with traits of Influenza, measles, encephalitis, and ebola to create a zombie virus.

Now, that's not the same as a virus means to give you tentacles mutating to make zombies, but a zombie virus is real-life plausible science.

And that striking terrifying, ain't it?

(A virus to give you tentacles going horribly wrong, if it didn't kill you, would probably be more like the G-Virus than the T-Virus.)

Peter Parker made a temporary adhesive that is capable of expanding to thousands of times its starting volume and a few pounds of it are able to hold up hundreds of tons of weight or restrain the movements of beings who can exert a kinetic force sufficient to move or destroy hundreds of tons of durable matter.

Read "Mathematically proved the existence of the Immortal Soul and the Afterlife" Richards has failed to replicate it and has expressed interest in having Peter teach him how to make it some time.

Peter did this with things he had in a storebought chemistry set and he did it on a whim and it worked the first time he tried it.

At 15 years of age.

You can't teach that. That's an instinctive, intuitive ability to learn and apply information and make connections between facts.

If Peter can do that, I could see him picking up the gist of the investigative process pretty quickly.

Especially what ith the fact that he works at a NEwspaper that, before Jameson developed his vendetta against Spider-Man, was famed for investigative journalism and he made good friends with many of the journalists who work there.

Yes. Peter did that because the writer decided that Peter could do whatever the writer wanted Peter to do. Which is the exact same scenario we have here with my premium virus. I cannot break it down any simpler. This is all made up. You deciding one made up thing is fine and a second made up thing is preposterous is purely arbitrary.

Same for nanomachines. They're electronics in the same sense that the Death Star is an electronic.

[Beeftank]

Peelee somehow got women on dating apps to message him first. The dude is a miracle worker*. Compared to that, a designing a premium virus is small potatoes.


*or at the very least, a stunningly attractive man. For the folks back home trying to picture you, would you call yourself more of a boyish handsome, a rugged, lumberjacky handsome, or like a classic handsome in the lines of a young Robert Redford?

[Peelee]

Peelee somehow got women on dating apps to message him first. The dude is a miracle worker*. Compared to that, a designing a premium virus is small potatoes.


*or at the very least, a stunningly attractive man. For the folks back home trying to picture you, would you call yourself more of a boyish handsome, a rugged, lumberjacky handsome, or like a classic handsome in the lines of a young Robert Redford?

I usually use "dashingly handsome", but I do enjoy "stunningly" as well. Also, more classic handsome.

Actually, to be serious for a moment, my MIL took my then-fiancée and me to Korea several years ago. We went to a hahoe mask festival, and this one random dude just yelled out in English "Hey, handsome guy!" at me from across the road, in a "let me get your attention" tone. And just waved at us and then walked on. That felt really cool.

[Rater202]

Sometimes when I'm talking face to face I can't make myself shut up and sometimes I just do not feel like talking under any circumstances.

It always feels like I'm talking a normal amount in the moment but then later I think about it and I realize that's not typical for me.

Which is weird, because I actually had to stop and think about times when I've spoken what I consider a normal amount. It's definite;y more often then stealth mode or blabbermouth, by a lot, but...

[halfeye]

I don't know man, there is some evidence eyes are spread by viruses. Eyes evolved post-phylum split between Chordates, Echinoderms and Arthropods but they use the same DNA sequence for them, and echinoderms only took them up recently. Something like 13% of DNA is viral in any animal, and we know eye dnas works between phylums that did not have eyes when they broke up.

The DNA of different eyes are different. There are compound eyes like insects and crustaceans have, and those are pretty different between species let alone phyla, there are camera type eyes such as vertebrates and molluscs have and they are different between both species and phyla again, the retina of the vertebrate eye has neurons in front, the mollusc neurons behind.

[Tvtyrant]

The DNA of different eyes are different. There are compound eyes like insects and crustaceans have, and those are pretty different between species let alone phyla, there are camera type eyes such as vertebrates and molluscs have and they are different between both species and phyla again, the retina of the vertebrate eye has neurons in front, the mollusc neurons behind.

Walter Gehring and Pax-6 disagree with you. Compound eyes are expressed with largely the same DNA as complex eyes, and eyelessness is expressed in exactly the same place.

Which again, leads to the problem that they branched off before eye formation. So either the DNA for eyes is for something else and helpfully get repurposed in the same way across multiple phyla, or viruses deposited Pax-6 from one to the others.

[halfeye]

Walter Gehring and Pax-6 disagree with you. Compound eyes are expressed with largely the same DNA as complex eyes, and eyelessness is expressed in exactly the same place.

Which again, leads to the problem that they branched off before eye formation. So either the DNA for eyes is for something else and helpfully get repurposed in the same way across multiple phyla, or viruses deposited Pax-6 from one to the others.

The proteins of the pigments may be similar, that doesn't mean they aren't independently derived, there aren't that many pigments.

[Rater202]

The proteins of the pigments may be similar, that doesn't mean they aren't independently derived, there aren't that many pigments.

Plus, as I said, even if eyes were spread by a virus there's a difference between your ancestor getting a few genes from a viral infection billions of years ago and you having a live virus in your system continuously causing radical changes to your DNA for an extended period of time.