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Thread: Cruella

  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Cool! I didnt know that! But youre still dancing around my question, and that tells me a lot more about the movie than critic reviews do.
    And I believe it is not my job to sell things to you, it is literally one of my aesthetics, see the punk comment posts before. I told you I liked it, I told you some of the reasons why I liked it, but I think we become less kind when we feel obligated to conform to other people’s expectations , likewise we think things are meant for another person.

    This movie is not for everyone, but I liked it, I am not going to pretend my taste is the same as yours. Some people like reese's pieces, others sour warheads. Telling someone that is not compatible with their taste they must like this is a form of smothering.

    It is a movie about a person who is born sour, who is born different, and whether she is allowed to take up space. Estella, the main character is both cruel and kind. And in the first 10 minutes of the movie the mom she loves gives her a nickname Cruella whenever she does something that makes another person uncomfortable even if Estella did nothing wrong, she just did something that was not expected of a girl who is born 1955 and thus was grown in the 1960s.

    So does the sour kid who is not being cruel, does she try to become sweet as her mother would have wanted, or does she embrace her sourness even if this will piss some people off? Oh yeah it is written by the guy who did The Favorite (see Oscar Nominees of 2019 for 2018 movies), has some fabulous actresses, great aesthetics, etc, etc.

    —————

    As another person not Cruella says in the movie “I like to say that ‘normal’ is the cruelest insult of them all, and at least I never get that.” [ the subtext is this person would never be accepted as normal, society will always judge them , so embrace it. A joy built from a deep sadness and neglect. Turning a great evil taking it and forging it into good. ]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    And I believe it is not my job to sell things to you, it is literally one of my aesthetics, see the punk comment posts before. I told you I liked it, I told you some of the reasons why I liked it, but I think we become less kind when we feel obligated to conform to other people’s expectations , likewise we think things are meant for another person.

    This movie is not for everyone, but I liked it, I am not going to pretend my taste is the same as yours. Some people like reese's pieces, others sour warheads. Telling someone that is not compatible with their taste they must like this is a form of smothering.

    It is a movie about a person who is born sour, who is born different, and whether she is allowed to take up space. Estella, the main character is both cruel and kind. And in the first 10 minutes of the movie the mom she loves gives her a nickname Cruella whenever she does something that makes another person uncomfortable even if Estella did nothing wrong, she just did something that was not expected of a girl who is born 1955 and thus was grown in the 1960s.

    So does the sour kid who is not being cruel, does she try to become sweet as her mother would have wanted, or does she embrace her sourness even if this will piss some people off? Oh yeah it is written by the guy who did The Favorite (see Oscar Nominees of 2019 for 2018 movies), has some fabulous actresses, great aesthetics, etc, etc.

    —————

    As another person not Cruella says in the movie “I like to say that ‘normal’ is the cruelest insult of them all, and at least I never get that.” [ the subtext is this person would never be accepted as normal, society will always judge them , so embrace it. A joy built from a deep sadness and neglect. Turning a great evil taking it and forging it into good. ]
    I mean, you started a thread about it and you get salty when people say they arent interested in seeing it. Maybe its not literally your job to sell us on the movie, but if youre going to start talking down on people for not seeing it, then it behooves you to make seeing it seem like a good thing and not an utter waste of our time and money.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I mean, you started a thread about it and you get salty when people say they arent interested in seeing it. Maybe its not literally your job to sell us on the movie, but if youre going to start talking down on people for not seeing it, then it behooves you to make seeing it seem like a good thing and not an utter waste of our time and money.
    We disagree here, but this salty back and forth was about something I see as rude, and you do not see as rude.

    Does a child with black and white hair need to justify her existence to her teachers or other people? What if the mere idea of this offends them? It is about expectation.

    If you do not see the purpose and you come into a thread saying I do not see the purpose of a thing, and you get into a back and forth, what do you owe the other person for the time you are wasting. Why is it only one direction, this “expectation?”

    If the question is not being rude, shouldn’t the question be seen as asking for a favor and thus understanding you are either being put into a debt for another, that you are asking for a kindness not as being kind but you expect someone else to be generous with their time?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    We disagree here, but this salty back and forth was about something I see as rude, and you do not see as rude.

    Does a child with black and white hair need to justify her existence to her teachers or other people? What if the mere idea of this offends them? It is about expectation.

    If you do not see the purpose and you come into a thread saying I do not see the purpose of a thing, and you get into a back and forth, what do you owe the other person for the time you are wasting. Why is it only one direction, this “expectation?”

    If the question is not being rude, shouldn’t the question be seen as asking for a favor and thus understanding you are either being put into a debt for another, that you are asking for a kindness not as being kind but you expect someone else to be generous with their time?
    Im going to be frank, im having trouble following you here. Youre waxing poetic about philosophy or something, and i just want to know what makes the darn movie worth watching. You obviously think youre making a point of some kind, but youre trying to get so fancy with your language and analogies that you arent actually communicating anything.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Im going to be frank, im having trouble following you here. Youre waxing poetic about philosophy or something, and i just want to know what makes the darn movie worth watching. You obviously think youre making a point of some kind, but youre trying to get so fancy with your language and analogies that you arent actually communicating anything.
    It is fun for all the ways that words can not capture. Stuff with the eye and ear. Lots of great aesthetics, lots of good banter, needle drops with music, knowing how to do special effects to feel organic (have you ever seen the first episode of Sherlock how people are texting and we see the words in a way that feels organic in the background, stuff like that but different forms of this idea very “pop art.”) Punk aesthetics, Camp aesthetics, etc.

    Words will not capture it though for these are the things about the eye and ear and presentation is what causing things to stand out and words can not capture the act of good presentation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    It is fun for all the ways that words can not capture. Stuff with the eye and ear. Lots of great aesthetics, lots of good banter, needle drops with music, knowing how to do special effects to feel organic (have you ever seen the first episode of Sherlock how people are texting and we see the words in a way that feels organic in the background, stuff like that but different forms of this idea very “pop art.”) Punk aesthetics, Camp aesthetics, etc.

    Words will not capture it though for these are the things about the eye and ear and presentation is what causing things to stand out and words can not capture the act of good presentation.

    You either trust me or do not
    I trust you in the sense that its an honest review, but frankly "somebody whose tastes differ than mine thinks its aesthetically interesting" isnt a strong selling point for me either. Certainly not one strong enough to make up for the inherent deficiencies outlined earlier in the thread.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2021-05-30 at 10:21 AM.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I trust you in the sense that its an honest review, but frankly "somebody whose tastes differ than mine thinks its aesthetically interesting" isnt a strong selling point for me either. Certainly not one strong enough to make up for the inherent deficiencies outlined earlier in the thread.
    Indeed.

    To return to Joker, there's a lot I could wax poetic about in how the movie is shot and the atmosphere the director achieved. But that isn't a reason to see the movie. You go to see it because Joaquin Phoenix puts on a stellar performance as a man being driven insane by the pressures society is placing on him. It answers the question "Who is this made for" readily - Batman fans who are interested in an alternate take on how the Joker came to be, as well as people who are drawn to dark character studies. I went to go see it with my father, and the only Batman he's seen is the Adam West version. He decided to go see it without knowing the Batman connection. Remove the Batman references and it remains an excellent movie in its own right.

    The review summaries for Cruella I see on RT all say the same thing - Emma Stone and Emma Thompson chewing the scenery at each other is fun, and the movie is pretty to look at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Indeed.

    To return to Joker, there's a lot I could wax poetic about in how the movie is shot and the atmosphere the director achieved. But that isn't a reason to see the movie. You go to see it because Joaquin Phoenix puts on a stellar performance as a man being driven insane by the pressures society is placing on him. It answers the question "Who is this made for" readily - Batman fans who are interested in an alternate take on how the Joker came to be, as well as people who are drawn to dark character studies. I went to go see it with my father, and the only Batman he's seen is the Adam West version. He decided to go see it without knowing the Batman connection. Remove the Batman references and it remains an excellent movie in its own right.

    The review summaries for Cruella I see on RT all say the same thing - Emma Stone and Emma Thompson chewing the scenery at each other is fun, and the movie is pretty to look at.
    I mean, for Joker, he was driven insane because he couldn't afford more medication. Not just because of society.
    I think when he murdered by self defense, he found he liked it as well.
    He was no longer the weak man society made him feel, he was only weak if he allowed himself to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    I mean, for Joker, he was driven insane because he couldn't afford more medication. Not just because of society.
    I think when he murdered by self defense, he found he liked it as well.
    He was no longer the weak man society made him feel, he was only weak if he allowed himself to be.
    I would say not being able to afford medication for your mental illness because your mental illness stops you from getting a good job is entirely society driven. Failing to get society to care about him enough to medicate him is a major driving force behind his actions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post

    I've still yet to see a reason why Cruella of all people was picked out of the Disney canon other than "she's popular". Her motivation is shallow and evil - she's a rich person who wants a puppy fur coat, and if that means stealing and slaughtering a family's pets so be it. There isn't a lot to explore with that character.
    So, I haven't seen the movie - I watched the Pitch meeting and I know for a fact that they didn't go into what I'm about to put down - but going off the source material (not the Disney source material) - there actually is some incredibly weird potential to play with.

    Curella De Vil is not just a fun pun name, in the original book her family house is known as Hell Hall and is decorated to resemble a fashionable and comfortable layer of Dante's Inferno, there are rumors that her family are direct decedents of the devil, and her name is a literary allusion to Count DeVille who turns out to be a psuedonym sometimes used by Dracula in Stroker's novel. She also got kicked out of school for drinking ink.

    She apparently had a major affinity for fashion and heat - over-using pepper extensively. She was also a very interesting figure in her personal life for a character set in the 50s in Brittan having convinced a wealthy furrier to marry her, take her name, and to dote on her.

    her personal color scheme is Black and White and she leans into that Hard

    Lastly we have her defining motivation: To make a puppy fur coat because she thinks it would be fashionable and her willingness to do anything to "look good."

    ----

    The visual theme of the character is black and while, her name essentially means "Cruel Devil" and she is obsessed with beauty.

    If I were exploring this character's back story I'd made someone from an obviously troubled childhood, make them someone who does not process social and emotional information well and has an overly simplified view of the world. Make her have a need to define things as black or white, good or evil, beautiful or ugly - and give her a sense of never fitting in - of not belonging to either place. This sets up her obsession with black and white patterns.

    Have dogs dislike her and make that be one of the things she simply cannot understand.

    Make her obsession with fashion linked to a deep belief from her childhood trauma that "beautiful = good" and therefore make it part of a misguided effort to become a good person - because if she could only be pretty enough she would be no longer be a cruel devil.

    Maker her somewhat mean and soft-spoken husband genuinely care for her and be constantly making her fur coats and similar things because he wants her to see herself as beautiful - and therefore good - but not realizing that he was feeding the problem.

    At the end has she been redeemed? No, she has not.

    Can she be made interesting and compelling without making her any less villainous? Yes.

    At the end will people believe that she would go on to skin and wear puppies? Very much yes.

    Would it make the "human heroes" of the original animated story's action of monetizing a song mocking and berating her as evil cruel in retrospect? Yeah, but it already was if you think about it.

    That story wouldn't get green-lit but Disney because it all kinds of risky. It would make Cruella into a tragic villain - a person who wants to be good and thinks they are going about doing so, but it so deeply damaged and misunderstood that the only way the world can understand her is to label her as a Cruel Devil.

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    What SuperPanda said, there are multiple ways to do it.

    How the movie does color theory is it shifting from red represented by her mom’s gift to her with the Estella personality, the necklace, the Estella mask such as the burn red hair color and her natural blood.

    While Cruella is Black and White but also we see throughout the movie black and white with a hint of red until the very end. These 3 colors place with each other for life is not only A or B but B accents A when you were both and vice versa.
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    Thought I would link the Pitch Meeting for this film. I have to say, im not impressed by the fact that they basically created a character only tangentially related to 101 dalmations and named it cruella as an obvious cash grab through name recognition. Even if the movie itself is actually great, I find that sort of thing obnoxious. I can deal with prequels, I find many of them unnecessary but they at least can tell an interesting backstory behind the bad guy which is potentially neat. This isnt even that. Its just, "Hey, here is a story of a young girl who grows up in an interesting way and has some interesting experiences. We decided to name 60% of the characters after a disney film cast but there is no actual relation."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Thought I would link the Pitch Meeting for this film. I have to say, im not impressed by the fact that they basically created a character only tangentially related to 101 dalmations and named it cruella as an obvious cash grab through name recognition. Even if the movie itself is actually great, I find that sort of thing obnoxious. I can deal with prequels, I find many of them unnecessary but they at least can tell an interesting backstory behind the bad guy which is potentially neat. This isnt even that. Its just, "Hey, here is a story of a young girl who grows up in an interesting way and has some interesting experiences. We decided to name 60% of the characters after a disney film cast but there is no actual relation."
    That's what I perceived it to be. I actually think that's what the Star Wars sequels were meant to be, as well. They had no intention of continuing the story of the original movies, but to use the name recognition and nostalgic imagery to trick an existing audience into going for a new film.

    I'd prefer a new film with an actual new setting and story to one where they are rebooting old things that really don't warrant rebooting. There are very few film concepts and settings that are just so great that they warrant reboots and contemporary revisions. Especially in today's world, where almost all films made in the last 50 years and earlier are still extant and increasingly accessible to watch. We don't need a new version of a great old film when we can still watch the great old film.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudd View Post
    That's what I perceived it to be. I actually think that's what the Star Wars sequels were meant to be, as well. They had no intention of continuing the story of the original movies, but to use the name recognition and nostalgic imagery to trick an existing audience into going for a new film.

    I'd prefer a new film with an actual new setting and story to one where they are rebooting old things that really don't warrant rebooting. There are very few film concepts and settings that are just so great that they warrant reboots and contemporary revisions. Especially in today's world, where almost all films made in the last 50 years and earlier are still extant and increasingly accessible to watch. We don't need a new version of a great old film when we can still watch the great old film.
    Emily VanDerWerff , chief culture critic at Vox (I think the official title is Critic at Large or something) recently did a Twitter thing on her personal Twitter that made a good point.

    Things that get greenlight with TV and Video often have a progenitor project before they existed. They greenlight books, comic books, podcasts, etc into TV or Movies. You can not get the time of day with an idea or even a finished script, but if you have something physical and concrete it is much easier to sell it to TV and Movies. There are also people who search you out and say X is interested in adapting your project into TV even if it does not make sense for the medium and you have to reinvent the product for the media rules of what works on TV is different that what you can do inside a comic like hear someone’s thoughts, or the narrative tension is different for a true crime podcast compared to a Netflix series.

    Well here is the thread. Note she made a lot of different points than I did in the last paragraph.

    https://twitter.com/emilyvdw/status/1397695319270334465

    In sum going from N where N is Zero going to One is seen as harder and more risky. Going from N equals One going to Two, Three, Four, etc is far easier. There is an existing fanbase, the money people know you can create a product, there is an idea of what the product is even if you remix it to the point is no relation to the original, so on and so on. This is actually not a new thing, in some ways this has been the way of the world always. (We can hash out the details and differences later.)

    ————

    In sum I agree Thrudd, but it is easier to make water go downhill with gravity than to pump it uphill with a water pump. I do not like it, but I understand it even if I want more new fresh things. Thus I will settle for anything that sparks joy.
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2021-05-30 at 07:57 PM.
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    Well... Maleficent was garbage... So is every Disney live action remake...

    So I take a shot in the dark here and assume Cruella isn't worth my time or money.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Well... Maleficent was garbage... So is every Disney live action remake...

    So I take a shot in the dark here and assume Cruella isn't worth my time or money.
    From what I hear, the story is nonsense (doesn't make sense how she acts to be the future self), but the set and dialogue is enjoyable. You would have fun regardless.

    If you didn't watch the prequels (101 Dalmatians, etc), you would have no issue with plot hole.

    Also, she should be smoking more in that time period (like she was in 101 Dalmatians).


    Granted, she is an unreliable narrator, so this might be how she sees herself not how she is, but that would require an ending like Joker to pull off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    From what I hear, the story is nonsense (doesn't make sense how she acts to be the future self), but the set and dialogue is enjoyable.
    From the TV Tropes description, it may not be all that inconsistent with "future Cruella"

    Spoiler
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    Villain Protagonist: Cruella is introduced with an intense mean streak even in her childhood, and the film focuses on her descent into madness and villainy as she fights her way to the top of the fashion industry, while also frequently hinting at what she'll go on to do in 101 Dalmatians.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    From the TV Tropes description, it may not be all that inconsistent with "future Cruella"

    Spoiler
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    Villain Protagonist: Cruella is introduced with an intense mean streak even in her childhood, and the film focuses on her descent into madness and villainy as she fights her way to the top of the fashion industry, while also frequently hinting at what she'll go on to do in 101 Dalmatians.
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    ‘Cruella’ Sequel Gets the Greenlight at Disney — Report
    According to a new report by The Hollywood Reporter, director Craig Gillespie and screenwriter Tony McNamara (one of the two writers for The Favorite) will return.

    https://www.indiewire.com/2021/06/cr...us-1234642545/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    I went in with low expectations, lower even then I had for beauty and the beast. I left actually kind of sad to be right. This one was real close.
    Indeed. Disney really, really needs to stop leaning so hard on its glory days and actually make something wholly new.

    Right off the bat, is there a need for this movie to exist? Did anyone particularly need the backstory for the villain called Cruella who wants to literally skin puppies? She was a villain, not some sort of nuanced, misunderstood character. I kind of get it for Maleficent, because you've got old timey hospitality values to work with and stuff, but this, there's even less room for reinterpretation.

    The whole attempting to remake a villain of this sort into a tragic anti-hero just never really fits together, with the two portrayals largely always at odds with each other. Essentially all the creative choices are constrained by the need for a consistent portrayal with what comes next.

    It occasionally has some pretty shots. Good composition, though the camera tends to linger self-indulgently. Some occasionally fun barbs/back and forth, though at least half of them are outright stolen from other, better films, which sort of distracts from them if you're the sort of person who watches a fair amount of film.

    Spoiler
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    This means that, unfortunately, we end up with a fashion film with some elements of heist very awkwardly bolted on in a way that doesn't fit.

    I am willing to overlook quite a lot of realism because it's a Disney film that sort of goes with cartoons, and a bit of stylized over the top whatever kind of goes with that, but not a great deal in this film makes sense even beyond that. What are the motivations of her pals to become her henchmen? They get angry at her, and then she wins them back by...telling them a bit about her backstory? And not even a sympathetic bit, just that her mom is also a jerk.

    The sort of charming jerk stereotype that say, Tony Stark pulls off is fun, but it sort of does require a heart of gold. Audiences love a snarky exterior if they're convinced that underneath, the character is going to do the right thing. With characters such as this and Harley Quinn, it doesn't really work. Selfishness and pettiness for their own sake are not endearing. You can also make compelling characters by leaning in on other positive virtues. Competency, belief...characters such as Thanos can be fascinating to watch because of these. However, the competency kind of....has to make sense. If there's no sense of struggle, it doesn't feel real. Look at all of your favorite action heroes...odds are really good they took a hard beating fairly early in the film.

    When a character is just a petty jerk, we instead see setbacks as them, well, getting what they deserve. This is absolutely fine if they are an antagonist, and are meant to contrast with the sympathetic character, but when they supposedly *are* the sympathetic people, well, most of us don't much enjoy dealing with selfish, petty people.

    A lot of the back and forth fashion stuff also just...drug on. It was a necessary plot element to explain the coat making, I suppose, but it just drug on and on, with the movie never trusting you to understand what you just saw, instead showing constant flashbacks to five minutes earlier AND narrating constantly over the thing to explain it to you yet again. The film felt immensely overlong as a result, despite only being two hours and change.

    Pretty much all of the bad choices follow fairly directly from the premise, so that's...unfortunate. If I were stuck making the same film, it would probably also not be a masterpiece, yknow? Gotta have some sympathy for the people working with some extreme limitations. But even with that in mind, the self indulgent nature of it, with endless people in the movie talking about how cool the events in that same movie are...yeah. It's not great.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post

    It is not our job to sell you on a movie and tell you it is a good idea 😌, that is emotional labor and why do you want that emotional labor from strangers?

    You are already convinced it is a bad idea, you are not listening with an open mind. And that is okay, people are not required to have an open mind, they are allowed to prejudge situations, and then deal with the consequences.
    Nobody is requiring you to participate in any particular discussion. If a post interests you, chat it up. If not, skip it. It's a discussion forum, there's going to be folks chatting with different viewpoints that they've already come to. That's the nature of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Psyren you are making an assumption it is a prequel, I have seen it, I argue that is open ended, much like some Batman movies are connected others are not.

    Not all IP is connected in a grand continuity.
    It does take care to set up even fairly minor elements and side characters. It's pretty clearly intended as a prequel. If it's financially successful, perhaps they will remake 101 Dalmations in live action as a direct sequel, but as it stands, there's no much that would argue against it being a direct prequel.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I figure the "why make Cruella, or Maleficent, or Joker, or Wicked Witch of the West, a protagonist" has the same answer in all cases - charisma. Turning charismatic villains into protagonists works.
    I would argue that Joker works not because of charisma at all, but because it is fundamentally a tragedy. The character never, ever is portrayed as charming, the cool guy, or the person on top of the world. Instead he becomes who he is because he is forced to by a never ending onslaught of harsh events. It's a good film. It's not a happy film.

    This is a fundamentally different sort of film than Cruella, Harley Quinn, or Maleficent.

    Perhaps this sort of take would have worked well as a backstory for Cruella, but it would require a film wholly different from what we got, and a sort of unflinching hard stare at violence and misery that Disney is proooobably not willing to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    You have not watched the movie yet you think you know a thing. I already said the movie is not about that, like at all.
    Oh, I watched it, that's quite accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    The original question why was this ever made, like why does this exist, why did this get greenlight?
    The answer to this question is immensely easy. Disney likes money, and sees releasing new content as a risk, but rehashing old content as easy profit.

    If ones goal was originality and creativity, they would not have a movie release slate like Disney's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Doing so makes a person speak out of place.
    You don't determine my place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Put another way would you ask a political movie, why did someone greenlight you?
    Within absolutely any genre of movie, there are good ideas and bad ideas, and it's completely reasonable to ask why someone pursued a particularly bad one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    From Rotten Tomatoes

    CRUELLA
    PG-13 2021, Comedy/Kids and family, 2h 14m
    73%
    TOMATOMETER
    258 Reviews
    97%
    AUDIENCE SCORE
    1,000+ Verified Ratings

    73% of critics gave it a positive rating and not a negative rating (27%)
    So, I actually came to this thread with the intent of posting a review and participating in some light banter, but...apparently the thread is mainly you defending this movie bitterly? So apologies if it appears I've focused on you quite a lot, but you've been the person actively defending preposterous ideas, so...

    I will say that this particular point has changed my mind on something. I have lost an immense amount of faith in RT. I have a great amount of difficulty imagining that 97% of people actually liked it, because the feedback has been negative to apathetic among my entire friend group, many of whom are quite fond of Disney films.

    The discrepancy is so great that I find myself wondering how the RT audience score could possibly be legitimate.

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    My guess? Most non critic people who went to see it in the first place already knew what they were getting and were happy to get exactly what they expected. Why fault RT when you can fault humanity instead?
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2021-06-07 at 01:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Right off the bat, is there a need for this movie to exist?
    I have no dog in the fight, but I would like to point out that I hate this argument. There's no need for this movie to exist, no. There was also no need for Star Wars to exist. Nor was there need for Rocky, or First Blood, or Jaws, or Raiders of the Lost Ark, or Back to the Future. None of those movies needed to exist. Nobody particularly needed a story of a teenager going back in time 30 years to get his parents to kiss, or a professor of archeology and his Egyptian buddy to fight Nazis in the desert. But you know what, these became some of the greatest pieces that Hollywood has put out, cinematic masterpieces that have stood the test of time and are universally acclaimed. So I don't give one damn about whether a movie "needs to exist". I'm going to care about whether I enjoyed it. And if I didn't but other people did, hey, good for those people. I'm glad they got something out of it even if I didn't. But I'm not going to say that it didn't "need to exist".
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-06-07 at 01:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    My guess? Most non critic people who went to see it in the first place already knew what they were getting and were happy to get exactly what they expected. Why fault RT when you can fault humanity instead?
    I'm...skeptical of that as an explanation given the lopsidedness of the reviews. That could explain, for example, why a film got, say, 80% positive reviews when 50% of the public liked something, but if the "actual" opinions on it would be 80% positive (that is, in the general population, 80% of people would like the film if they saw it), that would indicate that of the people who wouldn't like the film, only about 1 in 7 people went to see it. And I'm really skeptical given the amount of word-of-mouth that the film is that bad - a lot of people would watch it to make fun of it.

    Spoiler: math
    Show

    With a 97% positive rate, that means that for every person that watched and didn't like, 29 people watched and liked. If everyone who would like it watched it and did, and they form 80% of the population, that means that the number of people who disliked it and watched it would be ~2.75% of the population. That would be ~13.7% of the disliking population, or a bit below 1 in 7; 1 in 7.25 to be exact.

    And that's already assuming a generous like number.
    Last edited by uncool; 2021-06-07 at 01:21 PM.

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    A lot of the positive audience score might actually just be uplift from people happy to see basically anything in a cinema again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    My guess? Most non critic people who went to see it in the first place already knew what they were getting and were happy to get exactly what they expected. Why fault RT when you can fault humanity instead?
    I suppose that's possible. Might be one of those where the score shifts drastically after a while, because initial scores were set by folks that were more diehard fans. Still feels odd given that some of the people I know who hated it were diehard Disney folks, but that can certainly result in some shift.

    Part of it's that it's so insanely high. If it were, say, 70%, I might just assumed that my particular bubble happened to fall into the 30%. If it's only 3% of folks that dislike it, it seems unlikely that the half dozen or so I know are all from that tiny sample of folks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I have no dog in the fight, but I would like to point out that I hate this argument. There's no need for this movie to exist, no. There was also no need for Star Wars to exist. Nor was there need for Rocky, or First Blood, or Jaws, or Raiders of the Lost Ark, or Back to the Future. None of those movies needed to exist. Nobody particularly needed a story of a teenager going back in time 30 years to get his parents to kiss, or a professor of archeology and his Egyptian buddy to fight Nazis in the desert. But you know what, these became some of the greatest pieces that Hollywood has put out, cinematic masterpieces that have stood the test of time and are universally acclaimed. So I don't give one damn about whether a movie "needs to exist". I'm going to care about whether I enjoyed it. And if I didn't but other people did, hey, good for those people. I'm glad they got something out of it even if I didn't. But I'm not going to say that it didn't "need to exist".
    Sequels and Prequels are a different game. The original story has been told, and given that they did not already exist, the position was inherently open. There is always a need for a good, unique story.

    It is a different thing writing Highlander 2 instead of Highlander. You have to consider what you're bringing to the story that's new, and if that story has merit. In the case of Highlander...the original story was pretty good, and didn't particularly need a sequel to finish the story. Sometimes with sequels you can clearly see this need. Your example of Star Wars, for instance. After Empire, obviously audiences have an expectation of a finale to the trilogy. It's needed in order to bring closure to the arc.

    But sometimes sequels are brought about not because the story really requires them, or even has space for them, but because of money. Donnie Darko 2, for instance. The story was...firmly finished with the first. There is no need of a sequel. And yet....someone created it, and it predictably was terrible.

    Cruella is much more Highlander 2 than Return of the Jedi. The original story doesn't require a movie setting up the villain's origin story. It's not needed in any sense. You need to essentially create some other story from whole cloth with the constraints added by it being a prequel. This is possible. An unnecessary film *can* be saved and made great by an exceptional effort, but it is inherently more difficult.

    Nobody is using this argument to complain that we have too many good, unique films, after all. Nobody says that Jaws is unnecessary, though they might perhaps say it regarding Jaws 4.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I have no dog in the fight, but I would like to point out that I hate this argument.
    Spoiler: explanation
    Show
    There's no need for this movie to exist, no. There was also no need for Star Wars to exist. Nor was there need for Rocky, or First Blood, or Jaws, or Raiders of the Lost Ark, or Back to the Future. None of those movies needed to exist. Nobody particularly needed a story of a teenager going back in time 30 years to get his parents to kiss, or a professor of archeology and his Egyptian buddy to fight Nazis in the desert. But you know what, these became some of the greatest pieces that Hollywood has put out, cinematic masterpieces that have stood the test of time and are universally acclaimed. So I don't give one damn about whether a movie "needs to exist". I'm going to care about whether I enjoyed it. And if I didn't but other people did, hey, good for those people. I'm glad they got something out of it even if I didn't. But I'm not going to say that it didn't "need to exist".
    I think people are phrasing the initial summation of their argument slightly incorrectly to what they end up saying. Tyndmyr, at least, doesn't proceed to argue why the film doesn't need to exist. Rather that the film premise one might expect (the backstory of Cruella from the 101 Dalmatian movies) was not something with an obvious target audience. That's a reasonable point, and it is somewhat telling that the movie we actually got is very much not that*, and cue arguments on whether that's a problem. You are correct, too, of course --no movie needs to exist (if so, how was it we were getting along just fine before it came out?), but I don't think that's actually the point being argued here.
    *Regardless of whether or not this character makes a decent protagonist, whether this is a good movie, or anything else -- Emma Stone's character does not turn into the Cruella from the original book, animated movies, or the Glen Close live action movie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I suppose that's possible. Might be one of those where the score shifts drastically after a while, because initial scores were set by folks that were more diehard fans. Still feels odd given that some of the people I know who hated it were diehard Disney folks, but that can certainly result in some shift.

    Part of it's that it's so insanely high. If it were, say, 70%, I might just assumed that my particular bubble happened to fall into the 30%. If it's only 3% of folks that dislike it, it seems unlikely that the half dozen or so I know are all from that tiny sample of folks.



    Sequels and Prequels are a different game. The original story has been told, and given that they did not already exist, the position was inherently open. There is always a need for a good, unique story.

    It is a different thing writing Highlander 2 instead of Highlander. You have to consider what you're bringing to the story that's new, and if that story has merit. In the case of Highlander...the original story was pretty good, and didn't particularly need a sequel to finish the story. Sometimes with sequels you can clearly see this need. Your example of Star Wars, for instance. After Empire, obviously audiences have an expectation of a finale to the trilogy. It's needed in order to bring closure to the arc.

    But sometimes sequels are brought about not because the story really requires them, or even has space for them, but because of money. Donnie Darko 2, for instance. The story was...firmly finished with the first. There is no need of a sequel. And yet....someone created it, and it predictably was terrible.

    Cruella is much more Highlander 2 than Return of the Jedi. The original story doesn't require a movie setting up the villain's origin story. It's not needed in any sense. You need to essentially create some other story from whole cloth with the constraints added by it being a prequel. This is possible. An unnecessary film *can* be saved and made great by an exceptional effort, but it is inherently more difficult.

    Nobody is using this argument to complain that we have too many good, unique films, after all. Nobody says that Jaws is unnecessary, though they might perhaps say it regarding Jaws 4.
    That's fair, but even then, Star Wars, Back to the Future, and Raiders of the Lost Ark were all standalone movies that told a complete story, and yet. The BTTF trilogy, ESB, and The Last Crusade did not need to be made, yet they all added on to the mythos of the original. Sure, by the time you hit Jaws 6 you're probably tapping an empty well, but there's no shame in taking an established property and trying to see if you can't flesh something else out of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That's fair, but even then, Star Wars, Back to the Future, and Raiders of the Lost Ark were all standalone movies that told a complete story, and yet. The BTTF trilogy, ESB, and The Last Crusade did not need to be made, yet they all added on to the mythos of the original. Sure, by the time you hit Jaws 6 you're probably tapping an empty well, but there's no shame in taking an established property and trying to see if you can't flesh something else out of it.
    Pretty much, yeah. Empire makes a good example. The first Star Wars told a complete tale, but Empire was a fun expansion on the world, and together with Jedi, told a larger complete tale.

    It's somewhat harder to pull off with prequels, because instead of just using the first complete story as an introduction to another arc, saving you screen time for other things beside introductions, you end up having to start with introductions and work backward to a known finale. If you wanted to make a case for that, and stick to our Star Wars example, Rogue One does reasonably well. It isn't a necessary tale to the larger narrative, but they do manage to introduce new characters, and stick a new story in there that, in the end, lines up reasonably well with the rest of it.

    They have the advantage of blank slate characters, though. If you were telling a prequel story for, say, Luke....it would be a lot harder to make work. After all, he'd need to end up as a fairly uninformed farm boy. That's a strange place to end up at for space fantasy. Rogue One's choice to use new characters for the protagonists was wise.

    Cruella kind of runs into that problem. We don't have a blank slate character, we have to end up with her being the kind of character that wants to skin puppies. If you *also* want it to be a light hearted romp with a sympathetic protagonist, well...most people do not much like puppy skinning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    So, I actually came to this thread with the intent of posting a review and participating in some light banter, but...apparently the thread is mainly you defending this movie bitterly? So apologies if it appears I've focused on you quite a lot, but you've been the person actively defending preposterous ideas, so...
    Banter is the talk and / or exchanging remarks in a good-humored teasing way. Good-humored is a key aspect. It means to be genial and act in good faith.

    Acting why does this exist is not banter, it turns things into a language of the trial. If we look up antonyms for banter we would get.

    discussion, discourse, argument, chaff, mockery, derision, ridicule, irony, jeering, raillery.
    Asking why something exists is not banter, it is the anti-thesis of banter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Banter is the talk and / or exchanging remarks in a good-humored teasing way. Good-humored is a key aspect. It means to be genial and act in good faith.

    Acting why does this exist is not banter, it turns things into a language of the trial. If we look up antonyms for banter we would get.


    Asking why something exists is not banter, it is the anti-thesis of banter.
    I mean, it seems totally fair to say that reviewing something is putting it on trial.
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