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Thread: Cruella

  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Cruella

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Only mods can close threads AvatarVecna
    You can not post, though, and unsubscribe from it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Cool. Then virtually no art needs to exist and we can stop this whole little "art" thingy once and for all. Problem solved, glad we decided art needed to answer for its existence.
    Again, I think this is the part you're focusing on that most people would not agree with.

    Originality is great. Cash grabs are not. Not all art is a mere cash grab. Perhaps too much, yes, especially nowadays when it seems that prequels, sequels and redos are most of the films in the box office.

    There's at least a few films with something new to add, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Was Total Recall 2014 somehow diminishing and make less the master piece that Paul Verhoeven did in 1990?

    Will Matrix 4 somehow diminish Matrix 1, 2, or 3?
    That is mostly irrelevant.

    If there is already a wonderful telling of a story, I have little need of an inferior version of it.

    That said, it is possible that seeing the awful version might stick in one's head, and come to mind unbidden when watching one's favored work. The final season of Game of Thrones might make someone much less interested in the series as a whole, even if they loved it originally. Knowing that it goes downhill makes a rewatch somewhat less exciting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    I think we should step back even further. How about, "is the premise of this movie, regardless of the execution, engaging enough for me to bother going to see." The whole concept of justifying its existence is, while not a red herring, certainly is a bunny trail-level tangent.
    I suspect that when we say "why does this need to exist?" that this is precisely what we mean. We're not trying to delegitimize all art. Just concepts that appear to be obvious hack jobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    It is about semantics but it is about rudeness.

    Arthur Schopenhauer describes contempt as the conviction of the utter worthlessness of another human being. Now we are not talking about the worthiness of a human being we are talking about the worthiness of a media property, a piece of art.
    The work of art doesn't have feelings, only humans do. Being rude towards an object is without meaning.

    This is a social exchange and one group of people want to express contempt at another people’s opinions, they want to be rude.
    I dare say no person in this thread has dismissed the opinions of others as much as you. If this offends you, well, find a mirror, I suppose.

    They could choose to not voice an opinion, I do not go to a Super Bowl party and say Football sucks.
    The forum says "Media discussion" not "Media appreciation only"

    You are welcome to enjoy whatever you like. Others also get the freedom to hold whatever opinion they please. Everyone can participate or not, at their preference. That is the nature of a discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Only mods can close threads AvatarVecna
    The point being made is that nobody is requiring anything of you. If you do not wish to discuss, nobody will make you.

    If your desire is to prevent anyone else from discussing something because you dislike the mere existence of that discussion, well...I suppose you can try to convince people, if you want, but none of us forced you to have that desire. You're not being victimized by the mere existence of ideas that disagree with yours.

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    Default Re: Cruella

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    You can not post, though, and unsubscribe from it.
    Why is the default someone saying

    • A) This Should Not Exist, I will not pay for it vs.
    • B) This Should Exist, it is good, and I paid for it?

    Why must B "Shut Up" and A get to control the conversation of the thread? Especially when B said if you do not want to see it, that is fine, no one is making you do so. There only request is to not be rude and wish non-existence on another and they keep talking about it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Why is the default someone saying

    • A) This Should Not Exist, I will not pay for it vs.
    • B) This Should Exist, it is good, and I paid for it?

    Why must B "Shut Up" and A get to control the conversation of the thread? Especially when B said if you do not want to see it, that is fine, no one is making you do so. There only request is to not be rude and wish non-existence on another and they keep talking about it?
    as was noted, you have by far been the most vocal in telling people to "shut up", so i am unclear what your actual objection is.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    as was noted, you have by far been the most vocal in telling people to "shut up", so i am unclear what your actual objection is.
    I haven't told people to shut up. JNAProductions wants me to be quiet. They are not the same. I asked JNA why must I shut up? So can you please tell me Keltest, why must I be quiet when others are allowed to speak and voice their opinions and dictate the flow of the thread no matter how rude?

    Why is the default this must not be made, why is the default not instead why can't this be made when people want to see it and pay for it then it gets made?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Just concepts that appear to be obvious hack jobs.
    Why is it an obvious hack job?

    People do not agree on this!
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2021-06-09 at 02:50 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    I haven't told people to shut up. JNAProductions wants me to be quiet. They are not the same. I asked JNA why must I shut up? So can you please tell me Keltest, why must I be quiet when others are allowed to speak and voice their opinions and dictate the flow of the thread no matter how rude?

    Why is the default this must not be made, why is the default not instead why can't this be made when people want to see it and pay for it then it gets made?
    Well, i was going to go back and take some quotes of your previous posts that i felt pretty solidly demonstrated you telling people to shut up, but they seem to have been scrubbed, which tells me that this is not going to be a productive conversation under any circumstances now, if only because the evidence either way is impounded. So i will simply answer the last question with:

    Because its my money, and if you (a hypothetical you, not Ramza specifically) want it, you need to sell your product to me. You NEVER get to insist that i owe you that money by default.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Because its my money, and if you (a hypothetical you, not Ramza specifically) want it, you need to sell your product to me. You NEVER get to insist that i owe you that money by default.
    And that is okay, you do not have to watch it as I said numerous times. But saying this should not exist is a different matter entirely

    I am not going to try to convince someone who has contempt for the entire idea in the first place. I will try to convince someone who is skeptical.

    The best way for me to convince you is spoilers though, and if you do not want spoilers I will have to provide images, sounds, say these people wrote it, these actresses act in it, and pretty much have to just "trust me" when I say the combination of these factors make it fun. But someone else who sees those same combination of factors may not enjoy it. For example you may have a distaste for Emma Stone, even thought that would be beyond my ability to process.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    And that is okay, you do not have to watch it as I said numerous times. But saying this should not exist is a different matter entirely

    I am not going to try to convince someone who has contempt for the entire idea in the first place. I will try to convince someone who is skeptical.

    The best way for me to convince you is spoilers though, and if you do not want spoilers I will have to provide images, sounds, say these people wrote it, these actresses act in it, and pretty much have to just "trust me" when I say the combination of these factors make it fun. But someone else who sees those same combination of factors may not enjoy it. For example you may have a distaste for Emma Stone, even thought that would be beyond my ability to process.
    Why is it a different matter entirely?
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Why is it an obvious hack job?

    People do not agree on this!
    If we all agreed on everything, discussions would be pretty boring. Universal agreement is not required.

    That said, rehashes instead of original concepts is a pretty commonly supported grievance against modern Hollywood. If you genuinely like modern remakes of cult classics and the like, you're certainly welcome to explain why you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Why is it a different matter entirely?
    Trying to convince someone to see what you see is different when a person has Bad Faith or No Faith vs someone who is Skeptical.

    It is trying to plant plants and make things green in normal soil vs soil which is salted.

    I respect people who have salted earth to have agency that is different than mine and I will not waste their time, but it is not just wasting their time it is wasting my energy on a helpless matter in the first place.

    Saying something should not be made in the first place, that it is offensive that it got made is No or Bad Faith. That person does not want a dialogue, they do not want to change their mind and see something they do not see.

    A skeptical mind is different.
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2021-06-09 at 03:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    You can not post, though, and unsubscribe from it.
    This was not a demand-this was a suggestion. You seem to be taking a lot of this personally, so it might be a good idea to take a break and cool down.
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  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: Cruella

    This is a good article by Dana Schwartz on the subject of the thread

    Title: No, Hollywood Isn’t “Out Of Ideas”
    Lead: The only thing film snobbery achieves is robbing you of a fun time at the movies.
    June 8, 2021.

    https://www.bustle.com/entertainment...cruella-reboot

    Feel free to disagree!
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    Default Re: Cruella

    Metamagic Mod: let's everyone please dial back the intensity three full notches. If you can't engage without getting upset, please don't engage.
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    I don't think it's so much that Hollywood is out of ideas, as that Hollywood doesn't care to take financial risks. A brand new film can be a cult classic, certainly, but it can also bomb pretty badly, and for all the time they've been trying, no way yet has been found to avoid all risk of turning out a dud.

    If you turn out a dud with a familiar brand name, you at least get a certain amount of viewers based solely on the name. That's why you get properties like World War Z, the plot of which had frankly only a passing resemblance to the book. It tends to ensure that failures are less damaging, which is probably greatly comforting to investors.

    I'm sure there's a ton of people with ideas out there. There are a *ton* of aspiring people who'd love to help make a movie, but the actual number of films that get a theatrical release in the US is honestly pretty low per year. Somewhere north of 99% of the original scripts created every year are not going to be used.

    That's a little bit sad, but I'm not sure I have any great solution to that, yknow?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I don't think it's so much that Hollywood is out of ideas, as that Hollywood doesn't care to take financial risks. A brand new film can be a cult classic, certainly, but it can also bomb pretty badly, and for all the time they've been trying, no way yet has been found to avoid all risk of turning out a dud.

    If you turn out a dud with a familiar brand name, you at least get a certain amount of viewers based solely on the name. That's why you get properties like World War Z, the plot of which had frankly only a passing resemblance to the book. It tends to ensure that failures are less damaging, which is probably greatly comforting to investors.

    I'm sure there's a ton of people with ideas out there. There are a *ton* of aspiring people who'd love to help make a movie, but the actual number of films that get a theatrical release in the US is honestly pretty low per year. Somewhere north of 99% of the original scripts created every year are not going to be used.

    That's a little bit sad, but I'm not sure I have any great solution to that, yknow?
    Isn’t this always been the case though? The 1920s and 1930s Hollywood were adapting things too, likewise the 1950s Hollywood.

    There is a group of 1970s directors who grew up middle class and had expensive film equipment as preteens and experimented, and built their identity around experimentality and originality. But they too jobs from the machine adapting what producers thought were good ideas some of the time, and when they picked passion projects they too did not choose completely original works often adapting things like famous popular books of the time. Experimentality and Originality pardon my pun was not literally novel but instead a branding and rhetorical device.

    I like aspects of these 1970s directors, but penetrate the veneer and you see the same type of stories were still being made.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Isn’t this always been the case though? The 1920s and 1930s Hollywood were adapting things too, likewise the 1950s Hollywood.

    There is a group of 1970s directors who grew up middle class and had expensive film equipment as preteens and experimented, and built their identity around experimentality and originality. But they too jobs from the machine adapting what producers thought were good ideas some of the time, and when they picked passion projects they too did not choose completely original works often adapting things like famous popular books of the time. Experimentality and Originality pardon my pun was not literally novel but instead a branding and rhetorical device.

    I like aspects of these 1970s directors, but penetrate the veneer and you see the same type of stories were still being made.
    Nah, it hasn't been. The top 10 films for the fifties have exactly zero prequels, sequels or remakes in them.

    You will see a steady increase over time in a derivative works if you look at what films came out. Yes, there is always some ancestry to earlier ideas, but Seven Samurai is not exactly the same as Transformers 3.

    Even if we flash forward to say, 1970, and look at the box office hits of that year, why, we see a remarkable lack of prequels, sequels and remakes: https://www.the-numbers.com/market/1...rossing-movies

    By 2019(2020 was kind of a weird movie year because of covid), the top ten hits were...all sequels, prequels or reboots. Every single one. There wasn't an original film until Us at #12, and the next entry is Once Upon a Time in Hollywood at #18.

    There's a difference there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Nah, it hasn't been. The top 10 films for the fifties have exactly zero prequels, sequels or remakes in them.

    You will see a steady increase over time in a derivative works if you look at what films came out. Yes, there is always some ancestry to earlier ideas, but Seven Samurai is not exactly the same as Transformers 3.

    Even if we flash forward to say, 1970, and look at the box office hits of that year, why, we see a remarkable lack of prequels, sequels and remakes: https://www.the-numbers.com/market/1...rossing-movies

    By 2019(2020 was kind of a weird movie year because of covid), the top ten hits were...all sequels, prequels or reboots. Every single one. There wasn't an original film until Us at #12, and the next entry is Once Upon a Time in Hollywood at #18.

    There's a difference there.
    But those things in the 1950s and 1970s are still based off other works such as books, fairy tales, etc. Or they are part of successful genres like the musical movie, which is based off earlier musical movies but also things like Broadway stage musicals and other real life things.

    What changed in the 80s and so on is that tv was popular for 30 years now.

    https://omeka.wlu.edu/americancentury/items/show/111

    Spoiler: Image Table of number of one households which had at least 1 TV from 1950s to 1978
    Show




    As you can see 9% of America had a tv in 1950 and 90% had a tv in 1962. But culture changes immediately but also generationally. You are going to get a 20 to 30 year nostalgia cycle based off the first event. Thus the self refer is other tv and movie properties in the 80s and 90s while previously the self-referral were things away from the tv world. 101 Dalmatians was based off a book, it was not original. Now the base thing is being based off either a new IP that is not mass like a book, or another previous mass property. This is just economics. People have seen another property before and the only thing mass today is tv and movies and we are even losing that.

    So yes you can say 1950s stuff rarely had remakes but that is literally due to your definition of things of what constitutes a remake and what is called a “medium transfer.”

    ————

    We see the rise of 1970s directors with a different aesthetic, names like “The Movie Brats” (Francis Ford Coppola, George Lucas, John Milius, Brian De Palma, Steven Spielberg, Paul Schrader, all friends, note there are other contemporaries but only those people get the colloquial term “The Movie Brats” for they were outside the friend group even if they were peers.”

    For these 1970s people had TVs, but also had their own video cameras as pre-teens, and then they went to film school. They were the first generation born with tv as an early childhood experience, and they also had tools to manipulate it as teenagers, and then they studied it as a craft in their early twenties before doing jobs for other people, and once they had some money and reputation tried to do their own thing.

    Of course people after them tried the same thing but it was no longer fresh for these people got first mover advantage. The unfortunate side-effect of being the middle or late siblings from a societal perspective to a “piece of hype.”

    ————

    Star Wars is great but I can go chapter and verse how it stole / was inspired by previous ideas like Flash Gordon, The Space Race, Dune, etc (it was various obvious in earlier scripts with Dune.) But this is nothing new I can go how the Romantic Poets in the 1800s were inspired by John Milton of Paradise Lost in 1667 (it was rewrote in 1674) and that epic poem is all about references that came before.

    Likewise Ready Player One which fad has passed over but was a real popular audio book a decade ago prior to being a movie. Or Chris Claremont’s The X-Men from 1975 to 1991 is literally stealing a new plot from whatever Movie CC saw recently, or which book or fantasy or sci fi he read recently. Stealing and re-skinning* is not an insult to me, it is the highest compliment for it is the only way things remain fresh during the generational transfer which happens with culture.

    ————

    *Re-Skinning: This bit is not about the movie Cruella. But the only crime 1961 animated Cruella did was wanting the fur of puppies instead of older elderly dogs. If the dogs were euthanized at old age, a dog coat would be a memorial. Eating / Re-Skinning the flesh of the youth is the worse crime imaginable, it is vampiric, it is zombic where the old and or dead never gave the youth a shot. But perhaps there are many other metaphors of the old eating the young in this society we live in? 🤔 I wonder if someone could make a movie about those themes?
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    Finally got to see it. Why did it have to be 2 hours long? Couldnt they have shorten it? Its not like the movie has a complex plot or one with a lot of turns to really justify its time. The plot isnt anything special by any means and its strongest asset is the visual department (which I suppose its appropiate considering who they picked to make a movie about). Shallow and kinda bland. I would say it commits the biggest crime a movie can make (not standing out on its own). It will probably end up falling into obscurity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    But those things in the 1950s and 1970s are still based off other works such as books, fairy tales, etc. Or they are part of successful genres like the musical movie, which is based off earlier musical movies but also things like Broadway stage musicals and other real life things.
    The amount of originality required to make an entire animated classic from a short fairy tale is much greater than a nearly shot for shot "live action" remake of that same animated classic.

    Everything draws inspiration from elsewhere in some small amount. That doesn't mean all things are the same.

    But even so, let's evaluate your claim factually. Let us look at the top ten films of the 70s, by box office.

    #1: Star Wars - ANH. Inspiration from Japanese films? Sure. A direct adaptation of a story? Certainly not.
    #2: Jaws. Movie was under production before publication of the novelization. Essentially co-released. Not really an adaptation of an old work so much as a dual medium release.
    #3: The Exorcist. Adaptation of a book. Still not a prequel, sequel or remake.
    #4: Grease. If you count musical theater and a theatrical release of a musical as different, eh. Possibly an adaptation.
    #5: Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Not an adaptation. Based very loosely on talking to UFO fans, etc.
    #6: Superman. Adaptation of a comic.
    #7: Smokey and the Bandit. Not an adaptation.
    #8: The Godfather. Adaptation of a book.
    #9: Saturday Night Fever. "inspired by" an article in a newspaper. That's pretty loose, so I'm going to call that not an adaptation.
    #10: Rocky. Not an adaptation by any standard.

    So, we have three clear adaptations, and maybe two you could argue for if you were being very loose with the definition. Not a single sequel, prequel or remake to be found.

    Let us look at 2019's box office hits, shall we? (Again, sticking with 2019 because 2020 is an odd duck)
    #1: Avengers: Endgame. Direct sequel, also adaptation of comics.
    #2: Lion King. Remake, exceedingly few changes other than shooting style.
    #3: Toy Story 4. Sequel, obviously.
    #4: Frozen 2. Sequel. I suppose you could call it an adaptation of the original fairy tale, but that is sort of a stretch at this point.
    #5: Captain Marvel. Prequel. Also a comic adaptation.
    #6: Spider-Man: Far From Home. Sequel. Comic adaptation.
    #7: Star Wars Episode 9: Sequel.
    #8: Aladdin: Remake. You could also fairly label it as an adaptation of the original myth.
    #9: Joker. Slightly odd in how you label it. It's surely connected to the Batman IP, and can be fairly described as rewrite or a prequel depending on perspective. It is surely an adaptation, though, and not an original movie property.
    #10: It: Chapter 2. Sequel. Book Adaptation.

    Can you really say that nothing has changed? In addition to the remake penchant, dear god, look at how much Disney is in that lineup. The mouse is eight for eight for the top films.

    Even if we were to take literally your claim that any prior art at all is equivalently close, that has clearly become far more common.

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    Tyndmyr I am not going to go back and forth with you. For how you parse the data changes the results. For example if you did not the top 10 movies of the decade. You would get different results for top movie for each year. Also depending how you count the distributor rental may get you different results such as 1971, 1973, 1979 you get 3 years but 7 different top movies depending on how you count.

    1970 Love Story Book
    1971 The French Connection Book
    1971 Fiddler on the Roof Musical
    1971 Diamonds Are Forever Bond Franchise
    1972 Godfather Book
    1973 The Exorcist Book
    1973 The Sting Book
    1974 Towering Inferno 2 Books with different Authors
    1975 Jaws Book
    1976 Rocky New
    1977 Star Wars New, but easy to see it's influences
    1978 Grease Musical
    1979 Moonraker Bond Franchise
    1979 Rocky II Sequel, 2nd movie in 8 part Franchise

    By my count only 2 new novel things. Rocky 1 and Star Wars. That said some of the books you can argue for they were released the same year, and this was a total of 17 movies in 10 years for you can count distributor rentals (not VHS, aka the share of box office vs distributor, it is a different way we count box office then and now) 7 different movies could be the top movie of 3 years.

    But this is enough complexity, I already demonstrated it is complex and how you view it changes how you perceive the same facts.

    ———

    Passing the facts back and forth will not end the discussion when we are still not agreeing on the terms and values of the facts we are passing back and forth. We will just find different facts that suit the narrative of the values we see the world through.

    I do not have energy for this and I do not really care. Best of luck for you Tyndmyr

    ———

    If you want to see my argument through my eyes remember I argued the 1970s are the exception that tested the rule, they are the most varied due to the shifts of tv, studio industry, etc for reasons I mentioned but a thousand other reasons I did not due to brevity,

    If you do the same analysis of all 100 years of film, and notice the pattern. You will see it. More adaptions of previous tv and movies, the more recent you get with the 1980s and 1990s being the gradual turning point. This is due to technology, this is also due to demographics like the size of the populations such as the baby boomers, compared to other demographics.

    ———

    Why are you not bringing up anti-trust when you open up new areas of conversation. Whether Disney owns 40% of the market is different than IP being new and novel and when does an IP successfully reinvent itself and so on.
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  21. - Top - End - #141
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    I wonder if it's worth pointing out that while Rocky was not based on a book or musical or other published piece, it was based on a real and very famous fight between Muhammad Ali and Chuck Wepner. And that it barely got made at all (along with a number of other movies, such as Star Wars). The studios were certainly very skittish about those.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-06-10 at 04:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Cruella

    I think it's worth pointing out that there's a huge difference between a book adaptation, and an instalment in or remake of an existing film property, in terms of financial (and artistic!) risk. Someone's already mentioned The Golden Compass, which saves me having to think of another example. A hugely popular book series which didn't translate into success as a movie, either critically or commercially. It didn't bomb (though book adaptations frequently do in a way that sequels rarely do) but it performed well below expectation. It's always a bit of a punt because you don't know how either the material or the audience will translate to the new format. With a sequel or remake however you have a proof of concept already and an pre-existing cinema audience.

    You can't simply say "neither is a wholly original property, therefore they're both the same".

    If we're going back to the 50s, we should also note that the sheer volume of films being turned out was far higher than now. In 2019, the last "normal" year for cinema, there were around 800 releases in the US and Canada. This was slightly down on 2018, but still well above average for this century. In 1959, there were more than 2,000 releases. There's other stuff to say about the studio system, and how it enabled studios to take more risks, but that would be getting off topic.

    By any argument in good faith, the domination of the cinematic release schedule by remakes and sequels in the last 20 years or so is unprecedented. In the 20 years ending in 2019 (again, the last "normal" year) there were only three highest grossing movies that weren't remakes or instalments in an existing cinematic series or franchise (Harry Potter and the Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone, Frozen, and Avatar). In the twenty years before that, the corresponding figure is 12/20. The twenty years before that, 19/20, and that ratio then remains solid back into the silent era. The graph is undeniable. What it points to is a sea change in the way that films were produced originating at some point in the late 1970s and the resulting trend from which has only grown with time.

    Which is not to say that modern cinema is bad. There's an argument - for which I have sympathy - that the first decade of the 21st century in particular was a new golden age of sorts, especially if you look a little beyond Hollywood. Some of those 17 films that were remakes or series instalments were very good - both "good for a summer blockbuster" and "good for any film". But there is nevertheless a concerning drift and films like Cruella seem to fit that trend. It may be unfair that it's become a lightning-rod in this conversation (and beyond!) for that criticism when it's just one of a number, but there aren't many other films around, and there wasn't really much else in the OP to get our teeth into.

    That's purely from a meta-industrial perspective, for what it's worth. I think there are also questions to be asked about the merit of this specific subgenre of films in their own right; I've seen at least one article protesting this trend of re-imagining classic Disney villains as antifeminist, for instance. But I'm not really qualified to get stuck into that and I think it's beyond the scope of what can reasonably be expected in this thread.
    Last edited by Aedilred; 2021-06-10 at 09:34 PM.
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  23. - Top - End - #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    But there is nevertheless a concerning drift and films like Cruella seem to fit that trend. It may be unfair that it's become a lightning-rod in this conversation (and beyond!) for that criticism when it's just one of a number, but there aren't many other films around, and there wasn't really much else in the OP to get our teeth into.
    Fair or not, I think it is a perfect crystallization of this film -- it isn't a singular masterpiece or singular offender, but rather part of a couple of trends. Remakes/sequels/prequels being one, not-really* backstories another. At least to me, this movie is pretty much 100% analogous to Maleficent, and if you are fine with or like one I would think you'd be fine with or like the other. Obviously individual takes on whether Cruella De Ville, Maleficent, or for that matter the Wicked Witch are intriguing characters might change this.
    *As in the anti-hero or redeemed villain characters we ended up in these films just seem clearly distinct from the villains for which they were supposedly backstories

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    "Cruella" was the first movie that I saw in a movie in a theater in years and by Crom it was fun!

    Emma Thompson was beautifully regal and disdainful, and with a taser is hilarious "Oh I could do this all day", and Emma Stone wonderfully insouciant and insolent!

    The cars, clothes, and music are fabulous - Disney does The Stooges "I wanna be your dog" and it works!
    It's in sort of a fairy tale 1970's London that looks great, some laughs, even some tears (orphaning), not a film that will stick like "Paths of Glory", "Billy Budd", or "Locke", but I'm still glad I saw it.

    I did have a moment's pause when Stone's character says "Oh fart" instead of another word but then I remembered "Oh yeah, Disney movie", a Disney movie with songs by Black Sabbath, The Clash, and The Stooges in it, and frankly once I heard the words "So messed up, I want you here, in my room, I want you here, now we're gonna be face-to-face, and I'll lay right down in my favorite place" all the films flaws (i would've prefered more '70's punk songs) were forgiven!

    One Italian motorscooter, one British motorcycle, and so many '60's and '70's British cars, plus the costumes make this a visual treat! The setting was mostly a fantasy late '70's London (with a few '60's scenes), and so much of it has songs from the '60's and '70's (with one early '80's song by The Clash), and this couldn't have been cheap to make, so many period cars and extras in period clothes!

    The plot? Not really the point, a fairy tale-ish beginning, some bildungsroman, and then a series of ludicrous heist, which I enjoyed more than the "Oceans" movie I saw, or "The Italian Job" remake.

    It's not a great movie, Citizen Kane, The Godfather, or Vertigo it isn't, but it was just so much fun, and the outfits were FABULOUS!

    I now want more period films of battling fashion divas!

    So much better than the allegedly fun "Marvel's Avengers" movie that was the boringest film that I've seen this decade

    It was a genuinely fun movie.
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  25. - Top - End - #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    So much better than the allegedly fun "Marvel's Avengers" movie that was the boringest film that I've seen this decade
    Guess you didn't see Ad Astra then.

    That had moon pirates in and it was still dull as dishwater.

  26. - Top - End - #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    I now want more period films of battling fashion divas!

    It was a genuinely fun movie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    So much better than the allegedly fun "Marvel's Avengers" movie that was the boringest film that I've seen this decade.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I wonder if it's worth pointing out that while Rocky was not based on a book or musical or other published piece, it was based on a real and very famous fight between Muhammad Ali and Chuck Wepner. And that it barely got made at all (along with a number of other movies, such as Star Wars). The studios were certainly very skittish about those.
    There has definitely always been a certain degree of caution for novel things, absolutely. There's always been some element of risk there.

    Perhaps the ever increasing cost of making a movie is part of it? It's easier to justify a gamble with a smaller sum, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    But there is nevertheless a concerning drift and films like Cruella seem to fit that trend. It may be unfair that it's become a lightning-rod in this conversation (and beyond!) for that criticism when it's just one of a number, but there aren't many other films around, and there wasn't really much else in the OP to get our teeth into.
    Of course. Cruella probably isn't any *more* derivative than, say, the Lion King remake, or what have you. It's just the handy example at present.

    I suspect there's also a bit of folks wanting more movies to see post-covid. We've been awfully short on new releases for a while now, so anything new that comes out is likely to get rather more attention. Right now, the only thing in theaters that doesn't appear to fall into the remake/sequel/prequel bucket is a musical. That said, Free Guy looks interesting and a bit unique.

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Guess you didn't see Ad Astra then.

    That had moon pirates in and it was still dull as dishwater.
    Oof, yeah. I really, really wanted to like that movie. Sci fi is fun. It had some cool concepts. Rogue monkey space murders? How do you make that boring?

    Ultimately it's way too much of one mostly emotionless dude narrating and staring.

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    Default Re: Cruella

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Oof, yeah. I really, really wanted to like that movie. Sci fi is fun. It had some cool concepts. Rogue monkey space murders? How do you make that boring?

    Ultimately it's way too much of one mostly emotionless dude narrating and staring.
    It's very much about the main character. Unfortunately, that main character is boring and dull.

    It also, for a "hard" sci-fi movie, has some really glaring flaws in that area.
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  30. - Top - End - #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    It's very much about the main character. Unfortunately, that main character is boring and dull.
    This is why it is important that The Martian has one of the best opening lines ever. Up there with The Crow Road, The Invisibles and Saga.
    Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2021-06-11 at 08:28 PM.

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