Mage Killer build

[Tor the Fallen]

I was reading through 3.0's masters of the wild, and found that both a foe hunters SR vs. her chosen foe stacks with all other SR, as does the Forsaker's. The bloodhound gets see invisibility as an ex (I think) at level seven.

Something with wings ranger2/barb1/forsaker 6/foehunter 4/bloodhound7. That gets you 35 SR, 6 ability boosts, and you can see invisibility. Make sure you take arcanists as your chosen enemy.

Won't stop a dedicated mage on taking you out, but if you got the jump on one, he'd be surprised to find most of his spells failing.


If it changed in 3.5, let me know.

[Tokiko Mima]

I was reading through 3.0's masters of the wild, and found that both a foe hunters SR vs. her chosen foe stacks with all other SR, as does the Forsaker's. The bloodhound gets see invisibility as an ex (I think) at level seven.

Something with wings ranger2/barb1/forsaker 6/foehunter 4/bloodhound7. That gets you 35 SR, 6 ability boosts, and you can see invisibility. Make sure you take arcanists as your chosen enemy.

Won't stop a dedicated mage on taking you out, but if you got the jump on one, he'd be surprised to find most of his spells failing.


If it changed in 3.5, let me know.

Umm.. Forsaker doesn't work so well as a mage killer build. The Forsakers vow not to use magic or magic item cripples him/her worse than Vow of Poverty at high levels. At 20th level you can do a LOT better with magic items. I know that if you're following the WBL schedule, you could easily raise a single ability 10 or more, match or exceed the class abilities of a Forsaker and you'd still have cash to spare.

Plus when you're dealing with a high level wizard their first move is going to be this: They'll be pre-buffed with Foresight and have Celerity ready. This means they go first in combat, regardless of initative. Then they'll cast Time Stop, and follow up with a Forcecage and a Cloudkill, all of which have no save (well, Cloudkill is Fort partial but it won't matter) and no SR. There are different patterns but if you can't beat this basic arrangement of spells your survival is highly in doubt.

[Kizara]

Umm.. Forsaker doesn't work so well as a mage killer build. The Forsakers vow not to use magic or magic item cripples him/her worse than Vow of Poverty at high levels. At 20th level you can do a LOT better with magic items. I know that if you're following the WBL schedule, you could easily raise a single ability 10 or more, match or exceed the class abilities of a Forsaker and you'd still have cash to spare.

Plus when you're dealing with a high level wizard their first move is going to be this: They'll be pre-buffed with Foresight and have Celerity ready. This means they go first in combat, regardless of initative. Then they'll cast Time Stop, and follow up with a Forcecage and a Cloudkill, all of which have no save (well, Cloudkill is Fort partial but it won't matter) and no SR. There are different patterns but if you can't beat this basic arrangement of spells your survival is highly in doubt.

There is no 3.5 version of the foe hunter I am aware of, but if you want a good mage hunter build, I thought this one up a while ago:

Be a githyanki (for the dim door SLA and SR mainly, also they are cool):

ranger 1/fighter 2/hexblade 3/crimson scourge X (found in CityScape), Occult Slayer (found in Cwar)5. Take occult slayer up ASAP, the crimson scourge levels are 'filler' before and after the PrC.

Make sure you take Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Protection in your feats. All it hurts you for your SLA is distance you are able to blink with Dim Door (who really cares?).

[JaxGaret]

I've posted this thought before, and I'll post it here again:

If you have a high level duel, and one character is a full caster, and the other character has zero native spellcasting ability, and you gave them both WBL...

... and then you gave the non-spellcaster a non-suppressable, non-disjunctable Ring of Infinite SR, the spellcaster would still win.

If you're fighting Batman, it could be a non-suppressable, non-disjunctable Ring of Infinite SR and +Infinity to saves, and Batman still wins.

There is no "Mage Killer" at high levels that isn't a mage.

[CASTLEMIKE]

I've posted this thought before, and I'll post it here again:

If you have a high level duel, and one character is a full caster, and the other character has zero native spellcasting ability, and you gave them both WBL...

... and then you gave the non-spellcaster a non-suppressable, non-disjunctable Ring of Infinite SR, the spellcaster would still win.

If you're fighting Batman, it could be a non-suppressable, non-disjunctable Ring of Infinite SR and +Infinity to saves, and Batman still wins.

There is no "Mage Killer" at high levels that isn't a mage.

I disagree, very tough to kill certainly but not impossible or only by other mages. Wizards are one of the most powerful PCs in game, particularly in a duel because the game is being broken with one of the most powerful PCs in controlled conditions, a PC who is very good at going Nova in controlled conditions for a single encounter. They can still be surprised by the tactics of other opponents.

Here is a nice thread on the lock fighter:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883706

[JaxGaret]

Here is a nice thread on the lock fighter:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883706

Heh, Aelyrinth's Lockdown build, which I see him bring up time and time again over on the Wiz forums. Funny you should link to that.

It only really works against other characters who are focused on melee. It's not particularly good against your typical full caster, it was made specifically to defeat a melee-oriented Druid.

[dyslexicfaser]

Frankly, though, I'll take it.

It's so nice to see a pure fighter win at ANYTHING when compared to casters. Allow him his (no doubt very brief) moment.

[CASTLEMIKE]

It's a nice build for a fighter and a nice addition to an adventuring party where most primary spellcasters encountered won't be customized to handle it. One reason is the fighter will be accompanied by a full caster or two. It even has room for personal tweaking to taste. I like 3 levels of Factotum and Marshal -1 with Motivate Intelligence.

With LA buydown as an option a +2 LA Karsite or Phrenic might be a good candidate to build it around.

[BizzaroStormy]

Raptoran w/Half-Iron Golem Template and a melee class.

[Kantolin]

... and then you gave the non-spellcaster a non-suppressable, non-disjunctable Ring of Infinite SR, the spellcaster would still win.

If you're fighting Batman, it could be a non-suppressable, non-disjunctable Ring of Infinite SR and +Infinity to saves, and Batman still wins.

To be fair, wizards are somewhat squishy. If the first action the wizard does is something he figures will work that is offensive, it may spell death for the wizard if he discovers that his foe has a ridiculous amount of spell resistance and/or saves.

May. After all, if the wizard begins with a defensive move a'la teleport, that's pretty much a win.

What I'm saying, I suppose, is that while it's impossible for there to be a fighter-type build that counters anything a mage can do, it's possible to create a fighter-type build that can counter a decent amount of things a mage can do.

So I'd focus on upping your saves, upping your touch AC, and upping your mobility. Being able to make the enemy wizard make fortitude saves would also help, but that's not nearly as focal as the above.

[AnnShadow]

Umm.. Forsaker doesn't work so well as a mage killer build. The Forsakers vow not to use magic or magic item cripples him/her worse than Vow of Poverty at high levels. At 20th level you can do a LOT better with magic items. I know that if you're following the WBL schedule, you could easily raise a single ability 10 or more, match or exceed the class abilities of a Forsaker and you'd still have cash to spare.

Plus when you're dealing with a high level wizard their first move is going to be this: They'll be pre-buffed with Foresight and have Celerity ready. This means they go first in combat, regardless of initative. Then they'll cast Time Stop, and follow up with a Forcecage and a Cloudkill, all of which have no save (well, Cloudkill is Fort partial but it won't matter) and no SR. There are different patterns but if you can't beat this basic arrangement of spells your survival is highly in doubt.

Well... at 9th level Monks are immune to poison so cloud kill will not effect them at all.

could you make your mage killer a 9th level monk??

[Kizara]

Well... at 9th level Monks are immune to poison so cloud kill will not effect them at all.

could you make your mage killer a 9th level monk??

Becoming immune to cloudkill is stupidly easy.

There's alot of ways to be 1) Undead 2) not have to breath (like 3 different items, 1 being an Ioun Stone) 2) be immune to posions (monk, druid, some PrCs, some spells).

As for forcecage cheese, that's what blinking githyanki antimages are for. :)

[mostlyharmful]

the best mage killer build is a full caster wizard, there's just too many ways a wizard can escape, defend, sense, cripple or circumvent anything that doesn't have full casting. from mental domination to flight to teleportation to contingency, save-or effects, illusions and so on and so on.

A non-caster mage killer can come up with a limited range of tricks to attack with and a number of abilities to defeat certain types of wizard response, but nowhere near the versatility nessercary to face off against someone who can effectively change their class features with 8 hours notice. in anouther plane. while mindblanked. with full information on their prospective stalker.

[AnnShadow]

the best mage killer build is a full caster wizard, there's just too many ways a wizard can escape, defend, sense, cripple or circumvent anything that doesn't have full casting. from mental domination to flight to teleportation to contingency, save-or effects, illusions and so on and so on.

A non-caster mage killer can come up with a limited range of tricks to attack with and a number of abilities to defeat certain types of wizard response, but nowhere near the versatility nessercary to face off against someone who can effectively change their class features with 8 hours notice. in anouther plane. while mindblanked. with full information on their prospective stalker.

You "mages are the only class that can kill mages" always assume that the mage can act first and always knows that the fighter class is after the mage.

Well, how can a mage kill another mage if that other mage knows that the mage is going to kill him? can a mage get out of a time stop/forcecage/cloudkill?

And if so, why cannot a non-mage do it?


See, now this guy is saying a mage will do other things. The second poster said a mage will always do timestop/forcecage/cloudkill.

Well, the mage has one chance to fight or flee and she is dead when the mage killer beats it to a bloody pulp.

[Telonius]

Becoming immune to cloudkill is stupidly easy.

There's alot of ways to be 1) Undead 2) not have to breath (like 3 different items, 1 being an Ioun Stone) 2) be immune to posions (monk, druid, some PrCs, some spells).

As for forcecage cheese, that's what blinking githyanki antimages are for. :)

Don't have the books on me - would Warforged be automatically immune to the spell?

[Telonius]

You "mages are the only class that can kill mages" always assume that the mage can act first and always knows that the fighter class is after the mage.

Well, how can a mage kill another mage if that other mage knows that the mage is going to kill him? can a mage get out of a time stop/forcecage/cloudkill?

And if so, why cannot a non-mage do it?

The initial mage would have to word his contingency very carefully. Though that does raise an interesting question - if two mages have Contingencied Timestop, Celerity, etc., up at the same time, what happens? Does the multiverse implode, who goes first?

[AnnShadow]

The initial mage would have to word his contingency very carefully. Though that does raise an interesting question - if two mages have Contingencied Timestop, Celerity, etc., up at the same time, what happens? Does the multiverse implode, who goes first?

Don't get me wrong. I don't know that much about high level stuff. Just reading the Mages are #1 post and are alway ready for an assassination seems a little much.

You players that play high level mages in your campaigns are you always gimped in spell selection because you have anti-mage killer spells memorized? and do you basically not have a contingency spell because you used it to save you from mage killers?

if you do not have that set-up what makes you think other mages do?

In "The Art of War" by Sun Tsu, the outcome greatly favors the one who can chose the time of attack and the terrain.

If you make it so a mage can never sleep and is always preparing for a mage-killer, well, that mage is effectively dead already.

[mostlyharmful]

Don't get me wrong. I don't know that much about high level stuff. Just reading the Mages are #1 post and are alway ready for an assassination seems a little much.

You players that play high level mages in your campaigns are you always gimped in spell selection because you have anti-mage killer spells memorized? and do you basically not have a contingency spell because you used it to save you from mage killers?

if you do not have that set-up what makes you think other mages do?

In "The Art of War" by Sun Tsu, the outcome greatly favors the one who can chose the time of attack and the terrain.

If you make it so a mage can never sleep and is always preparing for a mage-killer, well, that mage is effectively dead already.

Contingency, Celerity(if used) and some regular divination (or some bound outsiders to continuously spam their SLAs to know if you're going to be attacked) mean that a high level wizard should be able to act and useually know when an attack is coming. If the one that is favoured is the one that chooses the timing of the attack and the terrain then I'm betting on the guy with the Int of 34 and the ability to teleport and planeshift. Betwix times he's living in a tower surrounded by wards and safeguads, in anouther dimension. A high level mage has enough spell slots to have some measures of defensive spells up at all times, against anything attacking not just this hyperthetical stalker.

A mid level and low level mage has significantly more problems with maintaining security but then that's what a party is for, and they can still sleep in rope tricks or mordenkains secure huts or what have you.

My point isn't that wizards are the be all and end all, just that they have the best chance with counterspelling and dispeling to try to weaken anouther caster. then a non-caster would be useful to go job the commoner with a good will save. Not straight off the bat. They'd get creamed.

[Kaelik]

You "mages are the only class that can kill mages" always assume that the mage can act first and always knows that the fighter class is after the mage.

That's because the Mage can always go first, and usually does know.

can a mage get out of a time stop/forcecage/cloudkill?

Well given Dispel Magic and about a 100 different ways to teleport/be immune to cloudkill, yes.

And if so, why cannot a non-mage do it?

Various different non-casters can get out of it/ignore it. However, that's not really a big threat. See below.

See, now this guy is saying a mage will do other things. The second poster said a mage will always do timestop/forcecage/cloudkill.

A Wizard is rarely if ever going to use that combo. It is trotted out because it is one of a very few ways that something can be killed with absolutely zero randomness. (Unless they have somewhere upwards of 20 con, then 20 straight ones on a d6 (or twos that get saved against) will still leave it alive.)

However, in reality a Wizard specializes in being untouchable, and then using many different types of spells that solve many different types of problems.

To actually have any shot against a Wizard, you must be able to reach him and hurt him, that knocks out 90% of "anti-caster" builds right there.

You must also be have a high touch AC/high Will and Fort saves/be able to deal with a Evard's Black Tentacles somehow, since any one of those failures could easily result in you being neutralized in a single round.

Well, the mage has one chance to fight or flee and she is dead when the mage killer beats it to a bloody pulp.

90% of "Mage Killers" can't even hurt a mage. Unless you can fly and have pounce and can start the fight (remain unnoticed usually) close enough to the wizard to reach it next round (with your flying charge) you really won't have much of a chance of killing it in one round. After a certain level Wizards are generally immune to stun/crits/Sneak Attack/Grapple/paralysis and several other conditions.

Plus all it takes is a Ray of Exhaustion to shut down anyone who relies on charging.

You players that play high level mages in your campaigns are you always gimped in spell selection because you have anti-mage killer spells memorized? and do you basically not have a contingency spell because you used it to save you from mage killers?

It doesn't gimp a Wizard to have anti-mage killer spells because his anti-mage-killer spells are anti-everything else spells too.

What would a Contingency be used for other then protecting you from the something trying to hurt you?

In "The Art of War" by Sun Tsu, the outcome greatly favors the one who can chose the time of attack and the terrain.

Odd that you mention that from Sun Tsu, since the Wizard is the character generally regarded as always having the ability to choose when and how to fight.

If you make it so a mage can never sleep and is always preparing for a mage-killer, well, that mage is effectively dead already.

A Wizard can always sleep since he has an assortment of spells that practically guarantee that no one can find him when he doesn't want to be found.

(Teleport somewhere else while Mindblanked, MMM. Or at Lower levels, just Rope Trick.)

[AnnShadow]

You must also be have a high touch AC/high Will and Fort saves/be able to deal with a Evard's Black Tentacles somehow, since any one of those failures could easily result in you being neutralized in a single round.

So we are back to the monk with a teleport spell and grapple?

[Melayl]

Witchborn Binder from MoI works well too. At will Dispel, Word of Abrogation, Mage Shackles, Spiritflay... Makes life hard for a caster.

It's a PrC, but I do have a full 20 level base class version.

[Fishy]

Spellthieves: Aye or Nay?

1) Stealth on up, Sleight of Hand to pick his pocket- looking for the Arcane Focus to Contingency.
2) Sneak Attack, stealing his Time Stop, optionally using the Mosquito's Bite skill trick to give you a round to cast.
3) Time Stop.
4) ???
5) Profit!

For extra points, Discover Spell tells you exactly what the wizard is capable of after the first Sneak Attack that connects, and a Level 20 Spellthief has pretty nice saves, and can spit back any spell he saves against as an immediate action. Not quite sure what happens when he makes a Fort save from a Cloudkill, though.

[Tor the Fallen]

Umm.. Forsaker doesn't work so well as a mage killer build. The Forsakers vow not to use magic or magic item cripples him/her worse than Vow of Poverty at high levels. At 20th level you can do a LOT better with magic items. I know that if you're following the WBL schedule, you could easily raise a single ability 10 or more, match or exceed the class abilities of a Forsaker and you'd still have cash to spare.

Plus when you're dealing with a high level wizard their first move is going to be this: They'll be pre-buffed with Foresight and have Celerity ready. This means they go first in combat, regardless of initative. Then they'll cast Time Stop, and follow up with a Forcecage and a Cloudkill, all of which have no save (well, Cloudkill is Fort partial but it won't matter) and no SR. There are different patterns but if you can't beat this basic arrangement of spells your survival is highly in doubt.

Right. Then when you get hit by his disjunction, you're frakked. Actually, if this build put off Forsaker for a few levels, he could pick up VoP. It'd be best if he could take flaws, though. That way he could get Forsaker early, and get the full benefits of VoP.

I've posted this thought before, and I'll post it here again:

If you have a high level duel, and one character is a full caster, and the other character has zero native spellcasting ability, and you gave them both WBL...

... and then you gave the non-spellcaster a non-suppressable, non-disjunctable Ring of Infinite SR, the spellcaster would still win.

If you're fighting Batman, it could be a non-suppressable, non-disjunctable Ring of Infinite SR and +Infinity to saves, and Batman still wins.

There is no "Mage Killer" at high levels that isn't a mage.

Note that this is simply a mage killer, not necessarily a mage dueler. Dueling a mage and not being a mage yourself is, frankly, suicide. Bloodhound and Foe Hunter work semi-well for tracking down the mage and getting the jump on him.

This build would also work well simply because the mage would look at the big brute with the club, notice that he doesn't have any magic items (because he has a perm arcane sight), and fire off with a spell that fails to crack SR, or ends up targeting a good save. At which point, the mage is boned.


In hindsight, though, 35 SR at level 20 isn't a whole lot against a mage determined to crack SR.

[JaxGaret]

Note that this is simply a mage killer, not necessarily a mage dueler. Dueling a mage and not being a mage yourself is, frankly, suicide. Bloodhound and Foe Hunter work semi-well for tracking down the mage and getting the jump on him.

True enough, except for the "getting the jump on him" part. That's what Divinations are for: A good question to ask daily is "Is someone or something actively tracking me?" and then work from there. There are a couple of low level Divinations that a high level mage should cast on a daily basis to ensure his safety.

This build would also work well simply because the mage would look at the big brute with the club, notice that he doesn't have any magic items (because he has a perm arcane sight), and fire off with a spell that fails to crack SR, or ends up targeting a good save. At which point, the mage is boned.

Or the mage could wonder why this guy with no magic items at all is even thinking about attacking his Batman ass, assumes the worst, and acts very warily towards the guy. Or, he could just act warily towards any unknown opponent. Or he could have invested time and resources finding out beforehand what exactly the guy tracking him is capable of.

In hindsight, though, 35 SR at level 20 isn't a whole lot against a mage determined to crack SR.

You're right, it's not. When I get a little time I could try and up it a bit.

One last thing that I just thought of, a funny mental picture: a fight between high level mages and high level "mage-killers" who aren't mages themselves is kind of like a fight between Wolverine and Magneto. If the Wolverine could get to Magneto, he would tear him to bits - if he could get to him.

[Kaelik]

So we are back to the monk with a teleport spell and grapple?

No, because:

A) How is this Monk teleporting at will? (That's effectively what you need.)
B) How is this Monk flying?
C) How is this Monk going to hurt the Wizard since he is immune to Grapple/Stun/Crits/Quiver Palm/Paralysis?

Please note that I even said that Wizards are immune to grappling in the post you quoted (a part of.)

[Kaelik]

This build would also work well simply because the mage would look at the big brute with the club, notice that he doesn't have any magic items (because he has a perm arcane sight), and fire off with a spell that fails to crack SR, or ends up targeting a good save. At which point, the mage is boned.

Or more likely, he could take not of some random guy with a club, and then, if he isn't already, fly up into the air with his all day fly effect. And watch as the poor guy tries hopelessly to do anything.

[Tor the Fallen]

Or more likely, he could take not of some random guy with a club, and then, if he isn't already, fly up into the air with his all day fly effect. And watch as the poor guy tries hopelessly to do anything.

Race with wings...?

[AnnShadow]

No, because:

A) How is this Monk teleporting at will? (That's effectively what you need.)
B) How is this Monk flying?
C) How is this Monk going to hurt the Wizard since he is immune to Grapple/Stun/Crits/Quiver Palm/Paralysis?

Please note that I even said that Wizards are immune to grappling in the post you quoted (a part of.)

well since your examples use far fetched stuff ... the monk has 5 rings of wishes and he uses them to prevent the wizard for knowing what is going to happen and to surpress the wizard's spell functions and .... god comes down and jumps on the wizard's head and ....

or we use a psion and the Psion is different rule and none of the wizards spells work and the psion kills the wizard.

ok for some standardization.

I'm thinking of a level 20 wizard using only SRD 3.5 (and if you take item creation feats and use them drop your level to 19 or whatever).

Give the wizard the standard money for a level 20 according to the rules. pay for your spells and items.

Only SRD 3.5 spells nothing else.

Now make a wizard killer using only SRD 3.5 classes and PrC same exp as wizard. Same money to start same same same.


I'm thinking the wizard is killable.

[mostlyharmful]

well since your examples use far fetched stuff ... the monk has 5 rings of wishes and he uses them to prevent the wizard for knowing what is going to happen and to surpress the wizard's spell functions and .... god comes down and jumps on the wizard's head and ....

or we use a psion and the Psion is different rule and none of the wizards spells work and the psion kills the wizard.

ok for some standardization.

I'm thinking of a level 20 wizard using only SRD 3.5 (and if you take item creation feats and use them drop your level to 19 or whatever).

Give the wizard the standard money for a level 20 according to the rules. pay for your spells and items.

Only SRD 3.5 spells nothing else.

Now make a wizard killer using only SRD 3.5 classes and PrC same exp as wizard. Same money to start same same same.


I'm thinking the wizard is killable.

Because a wizard using spells is far fetched stuff? and the extra spells are just pulled from ComMage and ComArc. If we're using just SRD then the mage owns even harder, without the extras the possible mage-killer builds are limited even worse than the wiz. The wiz is indeed killable. But your best chance is still anouther wizard, followed by a cleric/druid/sorc

[AnnShadow]

Because a wizard using spells is far fetched stuff? and the extra spells are just pulled from ComMage and ComArc. If we're using just SRD then the mage owns even harder, without the extras the possible mage-killer builds are limited even worse than the wiz. The wiz is indeed killable. But your best chance is still anouther wizard, followed by a cleric/druid/sorc

Build your mage and let's see.
cost out your spells and items.