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2021-06-14, 11:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
(redacted per chef request)
Last edited by The Viscount; 2021-07-04 at 08:10 PM.
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2021-06-14, 11:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
Does it still count as teamwork if the other people don't know they're working together? (The chef has requested this entry not be judged)
Originally Posted by FrackLast edited by The Viscount; 2021-07-04 at 04:35 PM.
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2021-06-14, 11:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
More like Ken-spines, am I right
Originally Posted by Alekk DalLast edited by The Viscount; 2021-07-04 at 04:40 PM.
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2021-06-14, 11:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
Are you not entertained?
Originally Posted by MayalaranLast edited by The Viscount; 2021-07-04 at 04:41 PM.
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2021-06-14, 11:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2012
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
I want a little bit of everything.
Originally Posted by DippLast edited by The Viscount; 2021-07-04 at 04:48 PM.
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2021-06-14, 11:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
His attack has no defense.
Originally Posted by ChainsawLast edited by The Viscount; 2021-07-04 at 04:49 PM.
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2021-06-14, 11:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
Every Thon has its august perfect of roses
Originally Posted by Vorlance ThonLast edited by The Viscount; 2021-07-04 at 04:50 PM.
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2021-06-15, 12:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
Eh sure that looks fine
Originally Posted by The lazy chef's spinemeld warriorLast edited by The Viscount; 2021-07-04 at 04:50 PM.
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2021-06-15, 12:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2012
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
Yep I'm totally a Skarn I like spines.
Originally Posted by The ImposterLast edited by The Viscount; 2021-07-04 at 04:51 PM.
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2021-06-15, 12:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
Yo dawg I heard you like incarnum
Originally Posted by Kim PogonaLast edited by The Viscount; 2021-07-04 at 04:55 PM.
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2021-06-15, 12:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
One spine, two spine, red spine, er... green spine.
Originally Posted by Trakkisin RusLast edited by The Viscount; 2021-07-04 at 04:58 PM.
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2021-06-15, 12:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
Slish-slash, using skarn spines is trash.
Originally Posted by Slish-shlashLast edited by The Viscount; 2021-07-04 at 04:59 PM.
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2021-06-15, 12:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
I am... the law!
Originally Posted by Irtrar Kalmanar QathLast edited by The Viscount; 2021-07-04 at 05:00 PM.
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2021-06-15, 12:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
Rip and tear!
Originally Posted by B.C.Last edited by The Viscount; 2021-07-04 at 05:02 PM.
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2021-06-15, 12:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
Let's talk about what's really important.
Originally Posted by Vornicaal RexLast edited by The Viscount; 2021-07-04 at 05:08 PM.
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2021-06-15, 12:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
That should be the builds. Judges, over to you.
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2021-06-15, 02:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
Finally, they're here!
Tough job for the judges. 16? By Heironeous!
Only three changelings warshapers? (Plus whatever Frac-Tall is) I would have expected more.
Anyway, I love so many of these, thank you to all entrants
Also, the lazy chef's warrior is probably better than everything else that gets submitted.Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-06-15 at 04:09 AM.
Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
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2021-06-15, 03:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
What an incredible turnout. I can't wait to look at these.
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2021-06-15, 03:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
So many great entries, and a surprising amount of non-changeling skarn! Well done, all!
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2021-06-15, 07:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
This....THIS ingredient inspired 16 builds?
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2021-06-15, 07:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- Bellona
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
I'd been working on a few different versions of an artificer build. I figured that one (small) advantage to the PrC was that the spines are technically just a single weapon, but you get to use them as two weapons, letting you essentially get double value out of weapon enhancements. So, I figured an infusion-focused artificer was an interesting way to go.
I played with a bunch of versions. Multiclassing penalties were kind of the bane of my existence, since artificer wants a decent investment (ideally you want to at least hit 4th-level infusions, which requires 8 effective levels) and isn't a favored class, meaning it's almost impossible to dip any other class. Still, I had a couple of versions that were cute: a robotic skarn renegade mastermaker with nauseating spikes and a holy spiked bear. I was actually pretty happy with the renegade mastermaker version, and got pretty far into the write-up, but suddenly about halfway through the build table I got really bored with the whole thing and decided not to submit. Anyhow, here's the basic build:
Spoiler: Mr Roboto
Skarn Artificer 3/Monk 3/Renegade Mastermaker 7/Spinemeld Warrior 7
1 Artificer1- Scribe Scroll, ((any incarnum feat))
2 Artificer2- Brew Potion
3 Monk1- Power Attack, Cleave
4 Monk2- Improved Bull Rush
5 Monk3-
6 Artificer3- Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor
7 Renegade Mastermaker1-
8 Renegade Mastermaker2-
9 Spinemeld Warrior1- Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (morningstar)
10 Spinemeld Warrior2-
11 Renegade Mastermaker3-
12 Renegade Mastermaker4- Three Mountains
13 Renegade Mastermaker5-
14 Renegade Mastermaker6-
15 Spinemeld Warrior3- Open Least Chakra (hands)
16 Renegade Mastermaker7-
17 Spinemeld Warrior4-
18 Spinemeld Warrior5- Superior Unarmed Strike
19 Spinemeld Warrior6-
20 Spinemeld Warrior7-
And here are the notes I wrote up for the build snapshots:
Levels 1 - 5
Artificer 2/Monk 3
In the early levels you’re a strange sort of brute: a monk who plays more like a fighter than a ninja, with artificer largely serving to augment your existing abilities. With Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush and a high Strength, you’ll do best switching between a two-handed weapon and your arm spines. With even a little bit of prep time, your artificer infusions go a long way toward boosting your damage here. Personal weapon augmentation is fantastic and can carry you through the low levels almost by itself, lasting 10 minutes/level and providing you with any +1 boost on your weapon. The gold standard here, if you have some inkling of what you’ll be up against, is bane, but it’s far from the only option. Magebane and earthbound are similarly decent damage boosters. The elemental power options are great, giving you access to a large elemental in the flavor of your choice with just a minute’s prep time - not bad at all for these levels. Smoking is of course incredible. Basically, flip through the MIC and look at all those kinda cool enhancements that feel a bit too situational to spend gold on, and realize that they’re absolutely perfect here.
On top of all that you have utility to spare, between your artificer infusions, invisible fist and above-average skills for a brute. Lesser armor enhancement is incredibly flexible and can provide some great defensive option or general utility - think blurring, death ward, heraldic crest of courage, etc. Pending potion makes your Brew Potion feat actually decent, as it lets you pre-buff with potions and then activate them as a swift action as needed, and skill enhancement has tons of use out of combat.
Chef’s note: The progression may look a little bit funny (monk 3 isn’t ideal, and in a perfect world you’d rather take artificer up to 3 right away for 2nd-level infusions and better crafting before taking monk), but your hands are tied a bit by multiclassing penalties, as neither artificer nor monk is a favored class for the skarn. Similarly, monk’s multiclassing restrictions mean you can’t return to monk once you leave it. For that reason, you’re forced into going artificer 2 -> monk 3 -> artificer +1 here. If you are playing in a campaign without multiclassing penalties, I highly recommend you go artificer 4/monk 2 instead, as the 4th level of artificer is far better than the 3rd level of monk.
Levels 6 - 10
Artificer 3/Monk 3/Renegade Mastermaker 2/Spinemeld Warrior 2
You don’t quite have the BAB to take spinemeld warrior yet, but two levels of renegade mastermaker fix that right up. Right away they give you the option of creating a battlefist. In addition to just looking really cool, if you have monk levels, a battlefist increases your damage as though you’ve gone up a size. Combined with the skarn monk ACF, which says that your spines are treated as a monk’s unarmed strike and increase in damage accordingly.
Now here’s where spinemeld warrior comes in. You can TWF with your spines - big whoop, right? After all, you could TWF with weapons any old time. Bypassing the Dex requirement is definitely nice for you, but where it becomes especially good is the fact that even though you’re TWFing with your spines as though they were two weapons, they’re only actually considered one single natural weapon. This means that your infusions and enhancements essentially have double impact. It also means that your damage increases from monk and your battlefist apply to “both” weapons. And since you can combine both TWF and flurry against lower AC enemies, any such changes become multiplicative.
Your infusions also continue to increase. The big winner here is armor enhancement. How about some vanishing armor for the party sneak? Or exalted for permanent protection from evil? Or mirror image? You also get to be more party friendly with lesser weapon augmentation, and can do a bit of crafting on the side with unseen crafter.
As for your noble familiarity, this may seem like an odd ability on an artificer, but remember that your actual crafting is a bit limited, making it ideal for picking up items such as wands. Eventually it will become downright required for finding things such as docents as well, as those explicitly can never be crafted.
Levels 11 - 15
Artificer 3/Monk 3/Renegade Mastermaker 6/Spinemeld Warrior 3
Some interesting things going on here. Another level of spinemeld warrior opens up soulborn melds. Soulborn may not be as flexible as incarnate or totemist, but it has some neat choices. At the top of the list for you are the mauling gauntlets. By binding these to your hands chakra, you get a sizable damage boost (2+2/essentia) on your spine attacks, in addition to improving Strength checks such as bull rushes or trips. It also gives you the benefits of Improved Unarmed Strike, which the skarn monk actually lacks, and which will come in handy down the road.
As for your other feats, since you already have Power Attack, Cleave and Improved Bull Rush, it’s just a quick step over to the Three Mountains style. This feat is absolutely devastating, allowing you to nauseate foes if you hit them twice in a round with a greatclub, morningstar or mace. Of course, you don’t HAVE a greatclub, morningstar or mace… but screw all that, you’re an artificer! The aptitude enhancement is just a 1st-level infusion away. Slap aptitude on your arm spines, and now you’re dishing out some heavy debuffs on top of your damage.
And with 3rd- and 4th-level infusions you get a ton of great options. 3rd-level infusions are nice… but let’s be real, the one you really care about is armor enhancement. Now that you’re using the greater version, you’re slapping +5 equivalent enhancements on armor. How about proof against enchantments/transmutation to completely negate an entire school of magic, or freedom for continuous freedom of movement, or etherealness for, um, etherealness? The options are nearly limitless. 4th-level infusions, on the other hand, are downright incredible across the board. Take concurrent infusions to imitate three 1st-level infusions at once without the costs, or item alteration to stack up ridiculously high bonuses by changing the bonus type, or minor creation to create buckets of poison, or weapon augmentation for some incredible offensive options (up to a +3 or 70,000gp enhancement).
Levels 16 - 20
Artificer 3/Monk 3/Renegade Mastermaker 7/Spinemeld Warrior 7
While the 7th level of renegade mastermaker doesn’t progress infusions, you’ve already hit 4ths (aka the most important infusion level), and you don’t really get anything interesting from progressing spinemeld warrior beyond 7, so go ahead and take it. This allows you to attach warforged components (there are some neat ones), artifact components and docents. Docents in particular are fun - they are basically little AI cores that provide some really nice abilities for relatively low cost. Unfortunately, docents can’t be crafted… but hey, you’ve got noble familiarity for a reason, right?
And with spinemeld warrior continuing to progress, you pick up several more nice little goodies. The rend attack is a great damage boost, given how many attacks you can toss out in a round, but by far the best thing here is the soulmeld progression. These add quite a lot of utility to your day to day activities. Once you get the arms bind, they can also provide a very nice damage boost as well via the astral vambraces. With the arm bind you can effectively increase the size of your spine attacks even further. Add on Superior Unarmed Strike (I mentioned that nabbing IUS via mauling gauntlets would come in handy, right?) and a monk’s belt, and your spines are doing 4d6 base damage. Now let’s add in the enhancement bonuses - you get two separate sources of these between your battlefist and your ACF, and with item alteration you can make them stack - and your boosts from mauling gauntlets, and suddenly these attacks are doing some real damage. Which is nice, because with +16 BAB, flurry and TWF, you can make 6 attacks a round, or 7 with haste (don’t forget that haste is one of the powers a docent can provide). And of course any time you hit someone twice with your spines they have to make a DC 20+Str save or be nauseated as well.
The bear version didn't get as far in the write-up, mostly because I couldn't think of a great reason for it having more than two levels in spinemeld warrior, but I must admit the concept of a holy bear covered in spines and TWFing was pretty funny to me:
Spoiler: Da Bear
Artificer 6/Sentinel of Bharrai 3/Warshaper 1/Spinemeld Warrior 10
1 Artificer1- Scribe Scroll, Sacred Vow
2 Artificer2- Brew Potion
3 Artificer3- Craft Wondrous Item, Knowledge Devotion
4 Artificer4- (bonus feat)
5 Artificer5- Craft Magic Arms and Armor
6 Artificer6- Craft Wand, Vow of Obediance
7 Sentinel of Bharrai1-
8 Sentinel of Bharrai2-
9 Sentinel of Bharrai3- ((incarnum feat))
10 Warshaper1-
11 Spinemeld Warrior1- Two-Weapon Fighting
12 Spinemeld Warrior2- Surrogate Spellcasting
13 Spinemeld Warrior3-
14 Spinemeld Warrior4-
15 Spinemeld Warrior5- xxx
16 Spinemeld Warrior6-
17 Spinemeld Warrior7-
18 Spinemeld Warrior8- xxx
19 Spinemeld Warrior9-
20 Spinemeld Warrior10-
Turn into a bear, morphic up some spines, enhance them with infusions and TWF them. Rawr.
Super fun round. No regrets in not getting my builds in, as there is a lot of competition this round and a surprisingly high number of entries considering how lackluster this ingredient is. Good luck to all!Optimization Showcase in the Playground
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IC LXXVI: Talos
IC LXXV: Alphonse Louise Constant
IC XLIX: Babalon, Queen of Bones
IC XLV: Dead Mists
IC XL: Lycus Blackbeak
IC XXXIX: AM-1468
IC XXXV: Parsifal the Fool
IC XXX: Jal Filius
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2021-06-15, 07:23 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- England
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
I love that almost nobody submitted a vanilla skarn, and everyone got weird with it. This round was a blast to build for, especially since Spinemeld Warrior offered so little.
Frac-Tall is amazing in concept, using Human Heritage to skirt the prerequisites of symbiotic is just *chefs kiss*, nothing better. It's so elegant in its inelegance.
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2021-06-15, 07:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2019
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- Bear mountains! (Alps)
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2021-06-15, 07:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2005
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
Not a single Paladin in the mix, I am now officially stumped as to which build T.G. Oskar submitted.
But man a lot of fun entries out here for this round. Not envious of the judges with this many builds to dig through. Good luck to everyone!If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2021-06-15, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2019
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
And I expected the ingredient would drive people away. Man, you know, I thought I was signing up for an easy gig here.
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2021-06-15, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2021
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- France
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
This ingredient was exactly what people here like: limiting, but with a few oddities that make it interesting. There were a lot fewer submissions in something much broader, like Legacy Champion. (also, I'm not sure what is the most appropriate in english: a lot fewer, a lot less, many less, many fewer?)
Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-06-15 at 03:31 PM.
Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
Nice find! Have a cookie!
Searchable spreadsheet of 3.5 monsters by abilities, now with all online monsters
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2021-06-15, 03:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
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2021-06-15, 03:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2021
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- France
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
Nice find! Have a cookie!
Searchable spreadsheet of 3.5 monsters by abilities, now with all online monsters
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2021-06-15, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2020
- Location
- Jerusalem
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
A few possible causes:
1. It's a full BaB martial class. 3/4 BaB makes meeting +16 very hard, and half casters are much more stressful power wise. You can mess around more when building something like this, and know that you'll probably still be in the same league, power wise, as everyone else. There's less system mastery involved. Less stress.
2. It's trash, but it's focused trash. It's easy to understand what the class is about, and the fact that there aren't many class features helps not to get lost.
3. Incarnum is fun, but it usually doesn't really mesh with SIs. Independent meldshaping means you get all the gun of incarnum, but aren't restricted.Last edited by H_H_F_F; 2021-06-15 at 04:00 PM.
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2021-06-15, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
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- <<Undetected>>
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXII
No one made a table yet? I'll make it then.
Last edited by mattie_p; 2021-06-20 at 10:52 AM. Reason: removed table so there is only 1
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