Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson

[bladescape]

You look less scummy for having finally gotten some bite to match all the barking you were doing.

I just want to say I reserve the right to tunnel on you if Cao flips wolf.

[AvatarVecna]

I just want to say I reserve the right to tunnel on you if Cao flips wolf.

Not if the vig beats you to me.

[rogue_alchemist]

Spoiler: rogue_alchemist ISO

Show

Good callout without being too harsh. Kinda null read for this game, but I like seeing this for community-growth reasons.



More of the same.



This is a bit before Apogee claimed, so it's not calling out Cao specifically for voting a mason. It looks better in hindsight than it was at the time because of that.



Null, the analysis part could be made by anybody, as could the given clarification on roles.



RA is making a habit of explaining concepts to the new players. It's a good attitude in general, but at this point I must also consider that it's a good way to look more helpful than you're actually being to the game.



Mmm.



Null. Anybody can want to kill Xihirli.



Forum functionality. Null outside the aforementioned "looking busy" thing.



More of the same.



Clarification post. Null.



Forum functionality. Null.

These are valid points. I am just so excited to actually be around D1 to have the chance to talk and not have to constantly defend myself for being too quiet. I also haven't had a lot to go off of D1 yet, as it is a bunch of new players that I have no history to read against. I figured the best use of my time was helping new players around until more started to happen (which it has). I plan to have more meat today, we'll see if work allows my plan to succeed.

We have skins, but our choices are only Playground Sand and Playground Sand Mobile.

Weird use of gender neutral pronoun to refer to herself, in line with Morn Shine's analysis below.

I somehow missed the start of the thread, to be presented with four full pages.

AV seems to be acting fairly in-character. Though, it's a bit early in the thread for self-voting and long analyses.

Having read through them, Xihrili is incredibly suspicious. Her posts are just off, not so much in substance but in style. For example:



Xi's grammar is usually better than this, and her tone is usually enthusiastic and borderline-suspicious. That's her whole schtick. At least, from the handful of games I've played with her. This post smacks of almost desperation.



I also note the use of the word "we" in this post, something that's odd for Xi-- she tends to stay a bit aloof, in line with the lynch-pleading. Maybe an intentional wolf deception, maybe a slip of the tongue. And also subject to the grammar and style oddities.

Unfortunately, I could see this discrepancy being the result of a Town role as a Wolf role, from what little I've seen of Xi. Nonetheless, she's still my strongest wolf-read in the thread so far.

Xi has definitely been off, though I don't know if analyzing her grammer is best way to 'prove' this. She is also wildly inconsistent on purpose to get people to vote her and then begs to be lynched for whatever people call her on.

[Batcathat]

Not if the vig beats you to me.

Oh, right. Even if I somehow convince people not to lynch me there might be someone who can kill me anyway just to be sure.

Screw it. My position can't get much worse so I might as well be open and hope for the best.

I'm a town Child of Athena, with the amazing power to "Each night you pick someone to watch and learn who their parent is". Obviously I can't prove it right now, but if people are willing to hold off on killing me, I'm very willing to get tested (at least these kinds of tests don't involve poking something up my nose ). Choose someone for me to use my ability on and day two I'll report who their mommy or daddy is (publicly or privately to someone trusted, depending on what people prefer). If I fail, you can go ahead and lynch me then.

[EmmyNecromancer]

I claim to not be a child of any of these major gods. I'm completely neutral! I swear!

[bladescape]

I'm AV's top non-confirmed townread. That makes me very paranoid.

That being said, I agree with a good proportion of their reads. The major points of difference are Valmark and totadile.

Valmark's reaction to the claim reminds me of HP Mafia and "Snowblaze claimed Seer, she must be a wolf". He was town that game. On the other hand he moved his vote away from rather than onto the claim this time... so it's not a super strong read, but strong enough for day one purposes. And I used to know how to read Valmark... let's see if I still do.

There were a couple of things I didn't like about Totadile - I think his focus on and random vote for Jeen (especially a good way into the day) was my main problem with them, as it feels like something a wolf could easily hide behind. But I don't know them at all, so I could definitely be wrong on this one.

While I appreciate the vote you have on my major sus, I have to ask:

Why are you voting Cao if you are the "same mostly as AV"? Cao has no particular suspicion according to AV, and if you haven't noted that as a particular difference it seems weird you are voting them?

[Snowblaze]

I claim to not be a child of any of these major gods. I'm completely neutral! I swear!

If this is an actual claim, what is your role name/power/win-condition?

My gut reaction is that Batcathat's power seems a likely one for a wolf to have, but not to the extent of "kill this outed wolf with fire".

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While I appreciate the vote you have on my major sus, I have to ask:

Why are you voting Cao if you are the "same mostly as AV"? Cao has no particular suspicion according to AV, and if you haven't noted that as a particular difference it seems weird you are voting them?

I mean, I have them as a slight scum lean, which isn't that different to AV's null read. Also I thought they'd be a good person to vote and see if something interesting happens.

When I said my reads were similar to AV's there were probably quite a few where there's a slight difference - I mentioned Valmark and totadile because they're the only ones where our reads were at different ends of the spectrum.

[Batcathat]

My gut reaction is that Batcathat's power seems a likely one for a wolf to have, but not to the extent of "kill this outed wolf with fire".

I sort of see your point, but it's not like it's a useless power for town. In some bizarro world where I was trusted and Apogee wasn't, I could vertify his claim. It could also be useful for checking out Emmy's (possible?) claim, I'm not sure I'd be told what the win-condition was but still.

[EmmyNecromancer]

If this is an actual claim, what is your role name/power/win-condition?

Child of Nemesis, Tie Breaker, break a tie with my tie breaker ability
Tie breaker ability: I get to secretly vote someone. That secret vote only works in an event of a time.

Also, AV seems to view me as "Slightly Suspicious." Not as suspicious as some of the others, but still, I'm suspicious.

[Valmark]

Weird use of gender neutral pronoun to refer to herself, in line with Morn Shine's analysis below.

She's not using a gender neutral pronoun to refer to herself, she was referring to multiple people- we as in us users of the forum.

Scumlean. Either you doubt it for a reason, and keep your vote there, or you think it through and realize the claim is almost certainly legit, like basically everybody. This honestly reads like "I still suspect you, but I don't wanna attract attention for voting the claimed mason so I'll move my vote elsewhere".

Given what all has happened and been discussed, I'd really like to hear the scenario that to your mind justifies continued suspicion.

The strength of the "boring town win" plan is in the guarantee that the hidden mason is trustworthy despite being alive and anonymous. Normally, the only time you can 100% trust someone is what you think they are is after the narrator has confirmed it following that person's death. There are three scenarios where we can have 100% trust in a player this game: first, in a private chat with a now-dead mason, the other mason talks to us (anonymously or otherwise); second, that one Poseidon power is used to have the narrator publicly claim your role (which could be used to absolutely private-claim to two people instead, which doesn't get you a giant pile of claims from everybody but is probably safer tbh); third, you have been brought back from the dead via that one Hades power. In two of these three scenarios, the 100% trustworthy person is also at risk of being intentionally targeted by scumteam.

That's it. Any other "proof" is largely going to depend on info-gathering roles, except there's multiple target-switching powers available, and almost certainly at least one of them is in play. Given that switch-powers (usually) don't inform the person that their target has been switched without their knowledge, info-gathering abilities aren't as reliable as narrator reveals or mason QT shenanigans. Obviously they could be quite dependable, but it's not going to be quite as rocksolid.

...but it would still probably work out just fine. An alignment-scry or role-scry could confirm Apogee in the seer's mind.

The fact that I suspect him doesn't mean I'm going to try and lynch the only claim we have without any actual proof.

You mean the scenarios that have been talked about already? Repeatedly?
To put it short, they could as well be two wolves. Or a Wolf and a Town, since we don't actually know what they told each other. Or even Wolf and Neutral, depending on win-con.

We don't actually know which roles are more likely to be Town/Wolf/whatever either.

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I sort of see your point, but it's not like it's a useless power for town. In some bizarro world where I was trusted and Apogee wasn't, I could vertify his claim. It could also be useful for checking out Emmy's (possible?) claim, I'm not sure I'd be told what the win-condition was but still.

In addition to this even if it was a wolf power you could have been randomized as town, so it's not exactly a solid reason to vote.

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Child of Nemesis, Tie Breaker, break a tie with my tie breaker ability
Tie breaker ability: I get to secretly vote someone. That secret vote only works in an event of a time.

Also, AV seems to view me as "Slightly Suspicious." Not as suspicious as some of the others, but still, I'm suspicious.

...@gac3, are all the listed roles also all the roles Town/Wolves get?

If Yes then Emmy, would that mean you're a Neutral? What's your win-con?

[rogue_alchemist]

Child of Nemesis, Tie Breaker, break a tie with my tie breaker ability
Tie breaker ability: I get to secretly vote someone. That secret vote only works in an event of a time.

Also, AV seems to view me as "Slightly Suspicious." Not as suspicious as some of the others, but still, I'm suspicious.

I know Gac3 said he wasn't going to list all the neutrals and would only use them if enough showed up. Obviously enough people signed up so they are in play, but it is also easy to make up a god with a reasonable power and neutral win condition as a wolf. Not saying I think Emmy is scum, but worth considering considering the claim. At least with Apogees claim there is a bit more meat to back it up with whatever happens (the sibling can have the thread and be verified town, etc). This is one of those, do we waste a lynch/NK/scry on verifying this and getting a basically useless confirmation but a potentially big reward if it is a lie? But of course all of this is heavily WIFOM.

EDIT: Apparently I stutter even in my typing.

[Batcathat]

Also, AV seems to view me as "Slightly Suspicious." Not as suspicious as some of the others, but still, I'm suspicious.

At first I read this as "Slightly Sisyphus" and for a second I started wondering if that was some role I'd missed.

If Yes then Emmy, would that mean you're a Neutral? What's your win-con?

Question for the more experienced players among us (and gac can answer for this game specifically, if he doesn't mind revealing it)... are neutral win-conditions always at the expense of everyone else or can they be like "you win if town/wolves win and X happens"?

[rogue_alchemist]

At first I read this as "Slightly Sisyphus" and for a second I started wondering if that was some role I'd missed.



Question for the more experienced players among us (and gac can answer for this game specifically, if he doesn't mind revealing it)... are neutral win-conditions always at the expense of everyone else or can they be like "you win if town/wolves win and X happens"?

In my whopping 5 game experience they are not at the expense of others, as that basically creates a 3rd camp that must 'kill' all the others to win and is very difficult to do without serious numbers. Most neutrals are "achieve some specific goal" regardless of what happens in the larger game. This usually results in different factions promising neutrals to help them achieve it if they will vote with their block. So in Emmy's case the wolves could promise to help generate a tie (as they don't care who gets lynched so long as it is not one of them) as long as she will use her power to save the wolf (or even just so long as she doesn't actively vote on a wolf). It is a bit risky for the wolves as the neutral could turn on them at some point if it looks like town has more power to help them achieve their goals. Neutrals also usually don't win with town or scum, they must achieve their goal, so Emmy loses (regardless of the game outcome) unless her win-con is met. This makes it dangerous to reveal her win-con as some malicious person could just ensure her win-con never comes up (that there is never a tie a the end of the day).

[Snowblaze]

Child of Nemesis, Tie Breaker, break a tie with my tie breaker ability
Tie breaker ability: I get to secretly vote someone. That secret vote only works in an event of a time.

Also, AV seems to view me as "Slightly Suspicious." Not as suspicious as some of the others, but still, I'm suspicious.

Do you leave the game when you successfully break a tie?

[Xihirli]

I feel like Nemesis would want to create a tie, not break one.

[JeenLeen]

Note: been too busy to read all the ISOs and do thorough analysis of the last couple pages of posts

I'm also Neutral. Though a Champion of one of the gods, not a Child of one of the less prominent ones.
I got the impression from Recruitment that not all the named Roles were in the game, so I do think it's believable there's more than one Neutral.

Oh, right. Even if I somehow convince people not to lynch me there might be someone who can kill me anyway just to be sure.

Screw it. My position can't get much worse so I might as well be open and hope for the best.

I'm a town Child of Athena, with the amazing power to "Each night you pick someone to watch and learn who their parent is". Obviously I can't prove it right now, but if people are willing to hold off on killing me, I'm very willing to get tested (at least these kinds of tests don't involve poking something up my nose ). Choose someone for me to use my ability on and day two I'll report who their mommy or daddy is (publicly or privately to someone trusted, depending on what people prefer). If I fail, you can go ahead and lynch me then.

Do you know how your power would read a Champion, as opposed to a Child?

I claim to not be a child of any of these major gods. I'm completely neutral! I swear!

Child of Nemesis, Tie Breaker, break a tie with my tie breaker ability
Tie breaker ability: I get to secretly vote someone. That secret vote only works in an event of a time.

Noting this sounds believable. The power seems subpar, though, but I don't think a wolf would want to make up a power from scratch.
Would you be willing to send your full Role text (flavor and power) to Apogee, so he can compare it to mine?

Do you leave the game when you successfully break a tie?

I second her answering this question.

[Zelphas]

Spoiler: Zelphas ISO

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Feels a bit wishy-washy, but it was pretty early in the day. The bigger mark against them is the lack of activity following this. You acknowledge that fostering discussion is the best move for town, and then don't contribute. Be the change you want to see in the world!

Null for now.

Fair callout; I'd rather listen to a discussion than join one, so it's a bad habit of mine.

Right now, I'm tentatively suspicious of Batcathat and CaomhintheCape, but only as a unit. Until they revealed their role just a bit ago, Batcathat didn't really have any counterclaims to the arguments against him except "it's day 1, there's not much I can say right now." Their role is simple enough to test, but if they are wolf they could simply be claiming another wolf's power while they actually have a killing power that they want to keep safe. That's veering off into speculation, however. Bladescape has also rescinded their vote against Batcathat, and that was one of the arguments that made me vote how I did in the first place, so this vote is already shaky.

CaomhintheCape is mostly fine, except that his second vote was in line with Batcathat's second random vote, and neither of them have moved their vote off of Totadileplayz. That feels off to me, but I might be misreading the situation (especially if Batcathat flips town).

Valmark and Xihirli are the two other names that seem to have strong suspicion thrown at them. The suspicion against Xihirli seems to be based somewhat upon meta-knowledge, and somewhat upon what seems to be her normal behavior, based upon the one game I've been in with her. The suspicion against Valmark is similar, but it seems somewhat stronger and it hasn't been fully addressed yet.

With that, I'll change my vote to Valmark, for now. The vote against Batcathat isn't as well supported as it was and seems to have served its purpose of fomenting discussion, my suspicion on CaomhintheCape is predicated upon suspicion against Batcathat, and I can't get a read on Xihirli. It's better for us to vote someone out than not for information's sake, so Valmark it is at the moment.

[JeenLeen]

I sort of see your point, but it's not like it's a useless power for town. In some bizarro world where I was trusted and Apogee wasn't, I could vertify his claim. It could also be useful for checking out Emmy's (possible?) claim, I'm not sure I'd be told what the win-condition was but still.

Fair point.
I'm willing to put some pressure on EmmyNecromancer, unless I get word from Apogee he'd rather her stay alive.

[rogue_alchemist]

This makes 2 neutral claims back-to-back. We are going to start having to ask what is the likely breakdown. Someone earlier said likely 15 town/5 scum, but they didn't consider neutrals that are neither.

Also Jeen's claim is the first we have heard of champion versus child of. I don't even know what the difference would be. Does this mean she isn't related to gods at all, just highly reveres one above all else?

I think we would have about 11-13 Town / 4-6 Scum/ 3-4 Neutrals for it all to be even. Neutrals could swing either way, but usually don't have super strong powers. I tend to lean toward 12 Town/ 5 Scum/ 4 Neutrals, as that would make for an interesting game and it wouldn't be over until the very end (with neutrals needing time to achieve their win-cons and being swing votes). This means that even if it comes down to 5 town vs 5 scum, with 4 neutrals still out there scum wouldn't win easily. Now it also depends on how many NK powers are out there as to how fast our numbers will dwindle. We know there is the scum faction kill. There is likely a vig, but how many? I think a town vig and neutral vig would be viable. This means that potentially we lose 1 person to Lynch and 3 people to NK. Now likely the vigs will hit either wolf or each other pretty quickly and start reducing the number of NKs, but still, this game has a LOT of unknowns.

[Apogee1]

I have received additional neutral claims that probably bring us up to 2-3 on top of what have been claimed in thread.

Really not sure how to handle that, as I'm normally an advocate of "kill neutrals with fire" (see AV in the Upick game a bit back for reasoning why) but a lot of these were not under pressure and I have reasons to trust some of them.

Batcathat

I think the claim was wolfy? Not sure but for the moment. Want to reread a few things.

[CaoimhinTheCape]

Yeah, it's weird that a mason claimed D1 when not even leading a wagon, but doing nothing about it but make noises of suspicion does more to harm the case against Apogee than help.

Spoiler: CaoimhinTheCape ISO

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Vote counts used to be the classic "information without analysis" wolf move, and then Cao came along and did them constantly.

It's good that the seeming-inconsistency was getting called out, but it's not like it was subtle that something was wrong, so no points for calling out the obvious mistake.

I've addressed this outside the ISO so I'll leave it be. The post itself is null: at the point in the thread this post was made, I could see a townie putting effort into puzzling through any possible scheme, but I could see a wolf putting this much effort in as well.

Null, although that might change depending on how they react to some other things that have occurred.

At the time Apogee claimed, he basically had 3 votes against him (Emmy had just unvoted) and all of the biggest wagons at the time were at 3. Maybe a little early but claiming to get a network set up (especially when we hopefully have a doc) makes sense to me.

If you now suspect what I think you suspect, why advertise what you think you've realized? Wouldn't it be better to take a little bit of heat now instead of putting that thought in everybody's head D1?

At the time I posted my explanation (the post you quoted) I was seeing a possible wolf connection from Libro's vote. I explained myself in the post and assumed there was no connection there. Until you asked this question, I wasn't thinking of any other possibilities.

Let me elaborate for you.

1. Number of words don't mean ****. Until it's substantial enough of content vs no content. Pre-400 word counts are, at best, misleading.

3. Pending his response, to be honest I dislike that play a lot from him in the first place.

Finally:
I take some minor offense that you think my contribution quality is the same as Cao's. He has so far waffled on, made irrelevant votes, (Both times voting for people who were not near lynch contender.) made no strong arguments for anyone bar one minor note which could've been an easy throwaway, and provided null analysis. Particularly:

Spoiler

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The AvatarVecna wagon did build very quickly so there's a little worry that it was wolves jumping on a good wagon for them.

Valmark's counterwagon seems to be for the sake of having someone else to vote. I didn't get any wolf vibes from his post so of the three that's the lest likely for me to get a vote.

I haven't seen Batcat play as wolf yet so I don't know what is a wolf read and what is regular posting. Lampshading anything that might look bad feels wolf like to me but that's been pretty standard. On the other hand, Batcat has been engaging people in conversations and I like that.

There's a decent chance that if Cao is wolf then one of AV/Valmark/Batcat is also wolf.

I'll agree that number of words really shouldn't amount to anything. This line boosts me by almost 20 for nothing important.

I've address what you're referring to above but tl;dr at the time I was not thinking about any additional repercussions of what I said. Just that at first it looked like there was a wolf connection between the two but in my explanation didn't think there was any connection.

I'm confused at how my explanations are suspicious? I haven't made impactful votes, that's true. But it's Day 1 and I didn't feel strongly suspicious about any of the wagons. I wanted to say why I wasn't voting any of them - that I didn't really see evidence against them.

To go to the effort of describing the reasons he doesn't like all the wagons? Leans wolf for me. Wolves in the absence of scrutiny are more likely to attempt to justify something they don't need to justify.

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CaoimhinTheCape

Please tell us your reads and thoughts on the current situation.

That's going to be a difference of opinion then. I would see it more wolfish if someone just said "I don't like these" and left it at that.

---

The current situation

BatCatHat's claim makes sense to me. He's been the leading wagon. I'm taking it as truth, since a wolf claiming to draw out a different role would have picked something else. But the problem is that role works well for either side, since I can see Wolves having a Seer power that narrows down the roles somewhat. I still think BatCat reads more town than wolf so I won't put my vote there. If nothing else this can verify Apogee overnight or verify the Neutral(s).

Emmy's Neutral claim didn't feel particularly necessary but I also don't know that it is wolfish. Gonna leave that as a Null (or, well, Neutral) read. Waiting to see what Emmy's win condition is.

I don't like the Xi wagon. The main drive behind it is that Xi's grammar is weird? Especially when there are other wagons that seem more relevant? Don't like it. I'll vote MornShine. Their one post only talks about the Xi wagon, nothing else going on in the game.

AvatarVecna's ISO on Valmark made some good points, but the thing is I would assume that Wolves would just let the Apogee thing go. There's obviously not going to be a wagon on Apogee so mentioning suspicion will only draw negative attention.

Aside from that, the people I will not vote today: Apogee, BatCatHat, AvatarVecna, Bladescape, Xihirli.
People I have a town lean on: Elenna, Zelphas
Null read, other people I'd vote first: Snowblaze, Totadileplayz, Valmark
People I'm comfortable voting: BookWombat, Flat_Footed, Libro, Mornshine, Rogue_Alchemist, Murska
Players who haven't played recently, so I won't vote them D1: Rogan, Shal06
Claimed Neutrals, on Day 1?: EmmyNecromancer, JeenLeen

---

On the topic of vote counts, I do them because I can't keep track of all the votes in my head and if I'm going to bother putting together a votecount for myself I might as well share with the class. As town it makes sure people are aware of who is in the lead/close to the most votes. As wolf, I am not acting any different from when I'm town. Gonna keep doing them unless people really want me to stop. It shouldn't be an indicator either way for me, but that's up to y'all to decide.

---

Vote Count:

AvatarVecna (2): Shal06, AvatarVecna
Rogue_Alchemist (2): Flat_Footed, BookWombat
Valmark (3): Xihirli, Elenna, Zelphas
Batcathat (3): EmmyNecromancer, Murska, Apogee1
Totadileplayz (1): Batcathat
BookWombat (2): Libro, Totadileplayz
Xirili (3): Rogue_Alchemist, Rogan, Mornshine
Mornshine (2): Valmark, CaoimhinTheCape
CaoimhinTheCape (2): Snowblaze, Bladescape
EmmyNecromancer (1): Jeenleen

[JeenLeen]

On the topic of vote counts, I do them because I can't keep track of all the votes in my head and if I'm going to bother putting together a votecount for myself I might as well share with the class. As town it makes sure people are aware of who is in the lead/close to the most votes. As wolf, I am not acting any different from when I'm town. Gonna keep doing them unless people really want me to stop. It shouldn't be an indicator either way for me, but that's up to y'all to decide.

I greatly appreciate your Vote Counts and wish you to keep doing them.
Honestly, after you die, I often get real fuzzy about who is in the lead because I've been relying on them.

Also Jeen's claim is the first we have heard of champion versus child of. I don't even know what the difference would be. Does this mean she isn't related to gods at all, just highly reveres one above all else?

Note from the opening post

Neutrals: I'm not goin to list all possible neutrals here. If we have enough people I will add special neutral roles who have their own power and win condition. Possible role titles include: Huntress of Artemis, Champion of Hera, Child of *Insert minor god*.

So we have knowledge things like Huntress (and presumably similar god-specific terms), Champions, and Child(ren) can exist.

[Snowblaze]

Yeah, I appreciate the vote counts too. Especially since seeing that last one helped me a lot - I kind of thought we had stronger Batcathat/Xihirli wagons rather than the lots of small wagons we do have. Which... I should be able to work something out from, but I don't know what yet. I'll think about it.

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@Caoimhin can you elaborate on your Batcathat townread? The only positive thing I could find about them in your ISO was "engages people in conversation". Is that all there is to it, or is there other stuff you haven't talked about?

[Xihirli]

Vote Count:

AvatarVecna (2): Shal06, AvatarVecna
Rogue_Alchemist (2): Flat_Footed, BookWombat
Valmark (3): Xihirli, Elenna, Zelphas
Batcathat (3): EmmyNecromancer, Murska, Apogee1
Totadileplayz (1): Batcathat
BookWombat (2): Libro, Totadileplayz
Xihirili (3): Rogue_Alchemist, Rogan, Mornshine
Mornshine (2): Valmark, CaoimhinTheCape
CaoimhinTheCape (2): Snowblaze, Bladescape
EmmyNecromancer (1): Jeenleen

Pretty sure AV is voting fo Valmark now

[Elenna]

I suppose I could consider claiming but A) I can't really prove it, B) roles aren't connected to factions anyway and C) it might just make different people want to kill me for different reasons instead. Just thinking out loud, hopefully some wolf will do something really stupid and get all the votes so I don't actually have to count on my questionable charm and dubious strategies to survive...

Now that you've claimed, mind clarifying who might want to kill you for it?

I'm inclined to trust batcathat right now, since it's not too hard to verify this claim, but then I wasn't all that suspicious of them in the first place.

I think I've put my finger on why this feels weird. A townie who said they'd vote Valmark would just vote Valmark - it's her first post, who cares, it'll get changed later. But when there's a big wagon on AV, and AV is voting Valmark already and nobody else is, putting your vote on Valmark is creating a counterwagon. That's why there's this hemming and hawwing to justify a vote she already said she'd probably cast. A townie wouldn't feel so inclined to care that hard about their first vote, but I could definitely see a wolf second-guessing themself in such a situation. Scum lean.

When there was already most of a page of discussion including a 4-vote wagon, it seemed a bit late for "it's my firsr post, who cares". (And, like I said, I wanted to call out the quick wagon.)

Seems like a stretch based on basically nothing? I mean also there were a few people voting Xihirli anyway. Not sure what to make of this.

If you count two as "a few", then sure. It was more of a general feeling - I was under the impression that several (at least 4-5) people had expressed suspicion of Xi, so I was surprised and suspicious to see only two votes.
That being said, having actually gone and looked it seems like it was mostly rogue_alchemist expressing suspicion a lot. The only people who said Xi's post was suspicious and didn't vote were you and JeenLeen, and you both had decent reasons - Jeen thought Xi was a neutral and you were less suspicious and also presumably waiting to pick a vote until after doing ISOs. So the low vote count apparently wasn't as weird as I thought it was.

@Elenna to clarify, in the first post you quoted from me I had already took the vote off of Apogee1 (like I said in it). Or I took it off immediately after, not sure.

I stayed for a bit without voting (if you check the vote counts you'll notice in some of them I was counted as not voting) then moved on Book Wombat.

- - - Updated - - -

Also yeah, I definitely still suspect Apogee1, I've got no reason not too. I took the vote off because I didn't feel alright voting the only claim we have, but that doesn't mean I'm not suspicious.

I didn't comment on the reply because what he said had already been said so it felt kinda pointless to add to it.

Okay, the fact that you unvoted makes me a touch less suspicious, but I still don't like the continued throwing of shade on Apogee.

You mean the scenarios that have been talked about already? Repeatedly?
To put it short, they could as well be two wolves. Or a Wolf and a Town, since we don't actually know what they told each other. Or even Wolf and Neutral, depending on win-con.

We don't actually know which roles are more likely to be Town/Wolf/whatever either.

As has been (also repeatedly) mentioned, Apogee's partner was told that Apogee was town. So they can't be town and wolf, unless gac is lying, which seems quite unlikely.
Do you really think two wolf masons is plausible? Wolf+neutral masons would also be really weird, and my impression from the role list is that neutral roles are seperate from the above list (which fits with the two neutral claims we've seen).
Moving my vote back to Valmark.

Child of Nemesis, Tie Breaker, break a tie with my tie breaker ability
Tie breaker ability: I get to secretly vote someone. That secret vote only works in an event of a time.

Also, AV seems to view me as "Slightly Suspicious." Not as suspicious as some of the others, but still, I'm suspicious.

Okay, I've done the "unprompted claim D1 as neutral and hope nobody cares enough to kill you" thing too, but it helps if you actually explain your win condition so people know you're not threatening them. Also this power seems weirdly weak and super easy to fake.

I have received additional neutral claims that probably bring us up to 2-3 on top of what have been claimed in thread.

Really not sure how to handle that, as I'm normally an advocate of "kill neutrals with fire" (see AV in the Upick game a bit back for reasoning why) but a lot of these were not under pressure and I have reasons to trust some of them.

Hmm. I could maybe see 4 neutrals with 12-13 town and 4-5 wolves. Five seems like a lot.

AvatarVecna's ISO on Valmark made some good points, but the thing is I would assume that Wolves would just let the Apogee thing go. There's obviously not going to be a wagon on Apogee so mentioning suspicion will only draw negative attention.

Throwing shade on Apogee can help wolves even if it doesn't result in a lynch though. It could make people more reluctant to claim to Apogee if they don't 100% trust him, which makes it harder for Apogee to figure stuff out. It can also provide an excuse for wolves to not claim.

[totadileplayz]

There were a couple of things I didn't like about Totadile - I think his focus on and random vote for Jeen (especially a good way into the day) was my main problem with them, as it feels like something a wolf could easily hide behind. But I don't know them at all, so I could definitely be wrong on this one.

This is an easy one to explain for most of my games here Jeenleen has a sus read on me, and votes me day 1. This isnt just a random vote day 1 as both games he was the one I had to actively defend myself against from getting lynched one game I was the vigilante the other I was an actual wolf.

This in conjunction with my mistaken belief they had voted me again this game, caused me to want to vote Jeenleen as a sort of null vote, since I didn't have anything more serious to go on.

And frankly no I don't have complex reads today everything will ultimately depend on interactions with other people, once their roles are known. Even inactivity can lead to a result, but this game is seriously fast paced just due to how many people are in the game. I can't fixate over a few posts over the day.

However that vote was changed before you commented as I looked more into the various people and believed bookwombat was acting the most suspicious of everyone.

[Shal06]

a lot of things happened while I was gone for a day

Now that you've claimed, mind clarifying who might want to kill you for it?

If I had to guess it would be the children of gods with a higher likelihood to be a wolf, like Aphrodite or Ares

Child of Nemesis, Tie Breaker, break a tie with my tie breaker ability
Tie breaker ability: I get to secretly vote someone. That secret vote only works in an event of a time.

Also, AV seems to view me as "Slightly Suspicious." Not as suspicious as some of the others, but still, I'm suspicious.

so if we assume the win condition is to stay alive and use the power a certain number of times the most likely person they will need to find is the child of Appollo since their vote counts as two and can mess up their gameplan, on a side note my d1 vote was random so I'll change it to Emmynecromancer to see what her win con is.

[Snowblaze]

Can we not kill Valmark, please? I think he’s town. Okay, I’m not incredibly confident, but I’m confident enough not to want him to die day one. (I stated my reason earlier: his response to the claim reminds me of HP when he was town). And I was getting good at reading him before I left last year.

Also I might be misinterpreting Emmy’s post but I thought her wincon was just “successfully breaking a tie”.

@Shal06
- Are you fully caught up?
- Do you have any reads? If so, what are they?

[Batcathat]

Now that you've claimed, mind clarifying who might want to kill you for it?

Them wolves. I realize my power might not make me the juciest target but anyone who can gather intel for the town should be bad news for the wolves, right? So if they can't identify any better target, I figure I'd be an option. Though right now I'm not that worried about the wolves, I'm probably worth more alive and drawing votes away from them.

[Shal06]

@Shal06
- Are you fully caught up?
- Do you have any reads? If so, what are they?

I am fully caught up (why it took me so long to post) and don't have any reads except I think we should vote for a neutral claim since they can be really annoying to deal with without the knowledge of their sidings and win conditions