Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson

[Apogee1]

I think Emmy is telling the truth, and that her power and wincon are likely as she described.

I'm still hesitant to do an 11/10 vote split or whatnot with an unknown (at this point) apollo and possible other neutrals in play.

[EmmyNecromancer]

Did Gac say something about what happens if you win?

Gac3 said to me...
"I will tell you the same thing I intent to tell any and all neutrals that ask or achieve their win condition.

Once you win I will give you the choice of one of the following three things.

Have your role and victory announced and leave the game.
Have your role and victory announced and remain in the game.
Have your role and victory not announced and remain in the game."

[Rogan]

I think Emmy is telling the truth, and that her power and wincon are likely as she described.

I'm still hesitant to do an 11/10 vote split or whatnot with an unknown (at this point) apollo and possible other neutrals in play.

Would not knowing who Apollo is be that bad?
Or are you afraid that there might not be a child of Apollo, so it would not be a tie?

By the way, did we get an answer to the question if we can see the final vote count, including every vote-changing power?
Not who voted for who, but the total number of votes everybody has received?

Gac3 said to me...
"I will tell you the same thing I intent to tell any and all neutrals that ask or achieve their win condition.

Once you win I will give you the choice of one of the following three things.

Have your role and victory announced and leave the game.
Have your role and victory announced and remain in the game.
Have your role and victory not announced and remain in the game."

This sounds believable.
I think, your claim is valid and I would be cool with you succeeding.

Which option would you pick? 1 or 2?

[CaoimhinTheCape]

I'll be online tomorrow (not close to Day's end, but some during the Day.)
If flat_footed and BookWombat have been active and moved their vote, I'd be happy to follow. I'm just sticking on RA because I think those are least likely to be around to move their votes.

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I think it's 12 votes on Batcathat currently, not 11.
Everyone has voted, correct?

Yeah, I just didn't update the number. But with totadile's change (and soon mine), it ends up at 10. EmmyNecromancer

RA and Emmy now have the same number of votes and we should have a comfortable lead for BatCat at the moment, so we should have a better shot of setting up a tie. Though, I am curious as to what Emmy would do if she won.

---

Vote Count:

Rogue_Alchemist (3): Flat_Footed, BookWombat, Jeenleen
Batcathat (10): EmmyNecromancer, Murska, Apogee1, AvatarVecna, Valmark, Elenna, Rogue_Alchemist, Xihirli, Zelphas, Rogan
Totadileplayz (1): Batcathat
BookWombat (1): Libro
Xirili (1): Mornshine
CaoimhinTheCape (2): Snowblaze, Bladescape
EmmyNecromancer (3): Shal06, Totadileplayz, CaoimhinTheCape

[bladescape]

I'm actually down for this. EmmyNecromancer

I go to sleep for eight hours and all the fun stuff happens.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm actually down for this. EmmyNecromancer

I go to sleep for eight hours and all the fun stuff happens.

Same, and I only passed out for 6.

[bladescape]

Same, and I only passed out for 6.

The curse of non-American timezones

[Apogee1]

Okay I have an Apollo doublevote claim at this point, so good enough for me to go forward with the tied wagon plan if we can organize sufficient people to do so.

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Obviously if something goes wrong, the primary goal of the vig would be shooting Batcathat, unless we are worried about bus drivers/vortexers, which we might.

[bladescape]

Obviously if something goes wrong, the primary goal of the vig would be shooting Batcathat, unless we are worried about bus drivers/vortexers, which we might.

Please don't.

If the wolves have ANY of the swapper powers, they get an extra NK from that.

Secondly, even if they don't have anything tha would protect Batcat, there's the chance they've got something like a watcher, and then they know who the Vig is. Too many dangers to publicly say who the Vig will snipe.

Also if you ever have a solid target for the Vig, please don't mention it in public again. Keep that to QTs with people relevant to the action, okay?

[AvatarVecna]

The curse of non-American timezones

Oh I'm american I've just absolutely screwed up my sleep cycle.

[bladescape]

Oh I'm american I've just absolutely screwed up my sleep cycle.

Welp. I guess I'll just sit by my own sad lonesome Australian self.

[AvatarVecna]

Welp. I guess I'll just sit by my own sad lonesome Australian self.

˙ʎʇᴉɹɐpᴉlos ǝɯos sǝʌᴉƃ ʇᴉ ɟᴉ sᴉɥʇ ǝʞᴉl ǝdʎʇ uɐɔ I

[JeenLeen]

If some people stay inactive, perhaps a few (who will be online late enough) should be pre-desingated to move their votes to set it up as desired. As already stated, I worry about our more-inactive not being around to move their vote. But if 2 folk don't vote for Emmy, then 2 could drop off Batcathat and still get the right ratio.

And I'm playing ball: EmmyNecromancer.

[AvatarVecna]

Has gac3 clarified how voting without crossing out your old vote will be counted?

[gac3]

Has gac3 clarified how voting without crossing out your old vote will be counted?

I don't know if I have specifically but my standard is to count the first uncrossed out vote.

[AvatarVecna]

I don't know if I have specifically but my standard is to count the first uncrossed out vote.

Hmmmm okay. I'm going through the thread trying to get a sense of how votes have moved throughout the day, and I'm seeing a lot of old votes not crossed out. If any players read this, check to make sure your old votes got crossed out, okay?

[Xihirli]

I have now struck through my vote on Valmark.

[Snowblaze]

Welp. I missed a lot.

I’m not going to be around close to EOD as that’s two in the morning my time, but I’m down for the tie if someone tells me who to vote.

[AvatarVecna]

Actually, nah. General callouts aren't useful. Let's dig into things properly.

I don't know if I have specifically but my standard is to count the first uncrossed out vote.

Here is every vote that isn't crossed out currently.

Rogue_Alchemist

Totadileplayz

batcathat

Totadileplayz

Jeenleen

rogue_alchemist

Batcathat

Xihrili

Bookwombat

CaoimhinTheCape

Batcathat

MornShine

Emmynecromancer

Batcathat.

BatCatHat

Batcathat

BatCatHat

BatCatHat

Batcathat

BatCatHat

EmmyNecromancer

EmmyNecromancer

EmmyNecromancer

EmmyNecromancer

I was initially worried that enough people were screwing up that neither BCH nor EN were actually in the lynch running, but it's still the same order of wagons, just a slight difference in who has how many votes. Although I definitely found something interesting that I wanna comment on...but that can wait until after the death reveal, I think.

ACCURATE VOTE COUNT

rogue_alchemist (2): flat_footed, Book Wombat
totadileplayz (2): Batcathat, CaoimhinTheCape
Batcathat (9): EmmyNecromancer, Murska, Apogee1, AvatarVecna, Valmark, Elenna, rogue_alchemist, Xihirli, Zelphas, Rogan
JeenLeen (1): totadileplayz
Xihirli (1): Mornshine
CaoimhinTheCape (1): Snowblaze
EmmyNecromancer (3): Shal06, bladescape, JeenLeen

Not Voting (1): Libro

CaoimhinTheCape, totadileplayz, Xihirli you have multiple uncrossed votes.

Libro why didn't you vote Batcathat when you called them out for fakeclaiming?

EDIT: Xihirli is a ninja.

[totadileplayz]

Actually, nah. General callouts aren't useful. Let's dig into things properly.



Here is every vote that isn't crossed out currently.

















































I was initially worried that enough people were screwing up that neither BCH nor EN were actually in the lynch running, but it's still the same order of wagons, just a slight difference in who has how many votes. Although I definitely found something interesting that I wanna comment on...but that can wait until after the death reveal, I think.

ACCURATE VOTE COUNT

rogue_alchemist (2): flat_footed, Book Wombat
totadileplayz (2): Batcathat, CaoimhinTheCape
Batcathat (9): EmmyNecromancer, Murska, Apogee1, AvatarVecna, Valmark, Elenna, rogue_alchemist, Xihirli, Zelphas, Rogan
JeenLeen (1): totadileplayz
Xihirli (1): Mornshine
CaoimhinTheCape (1): Snowblaze
EmmyNecromancer (3): Shal06, bladescape, JeenLeen

Not Voting (1): Libro

CaoimhinTheCape, totadileplayz, Xihirli you have multiple uncrossed votes.

Libro why didn't you vote Batcathat when you called them out for fakeclaiming?

EDIT: Xihirli is a ninja.

They are already crossed out

[AvatarVecna]

They weren't when I started quoting stuff. Just took me some time to make sure I hadn't.missed anything. Thanks for checking, this post was less about calling people out and more making sure that tye true vote count was known given the new info of how things would be counted.

[totadileplayz]

They weren't when I started quoting stuff. Just took me some time to make sure I hadn't.missed anything. Thanks for checking, this post was less about calling people out and more making sure that tye true vote count was known given the new info of how things would be counted.

Thanks for the header.

[MornShine]

Right, since I'm not going to be awake for end-of-day proper, I'm going to move my vote to EmmyNecromancer. Xi's still suspicious, what with her short contentless posts, but we have wolfier wolves to lynch.

The plan to lynch Batthatcat, and get Emmy to demonstrate her powers, seems fairly solid.

Batthatcat's wolfishness seems beyond doubt, given that they claimed and were effectively counterclaimed twice; Emmy's claim to neutrality seems at least plausible, though I'm a bit suspicious of her win-con, which she claims is literally "use the power". Especially for a Child of Nemesis, who is the Goddess of Revenge-- I'd expect killing a specific player or role. Hopefully, this will be mooted as of the vote.

(Side note: @Emmy, I believe it would be best for town if, should you win tonight, you choose to reveal your role and victory and continue as a confirmed neutral. You've already won, why not stick around?)

[Batcathat]

Batthatcat's wolfishness seems beyond doubt, given that they claimed and were effectively counterclaimed twice

I can see why you'd think that, as I've clearly played this very weirdly. I suspect Apogee and/or my secret "sibling" is gonna have some tough questions to answer.

I would find it very funny if there actually are two Children of Iris in the game and both ended up getting lynched, me for... well, literally unbelievable stupidity mainly and the other one for looking really shady after my death. Ah, well. We'll see how it plays out.

[Snowblaze]

Discussion seems to have stalled a bit - probably something to do with the outed wolf. Let’s see what I can do to get it moving again: who do people think Batcathat’s partners could be?

Caoimhin and Elenna are top of my suspect list after a re-read (speaking of Caoimhin could you please answer my question about why you townread Batcathat earlier?)

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(Side note: @Emmy, I believe it would be best for town if, should you win tonight, you choose to reveal your role and victory and continue as a confirmed neutral. You've already won, why not stick around?)

Because a neutral with no stake in the game could betray town purely for the lulz? I’d rather not have that happen.

[Valmark]

Mmm... Question @Libro, why did you call your power "a spin on the Fool" rather then the Devil?

I mean, you're almost assuredly Town if BatCatHat turns up Wolf, but in case he doesn't this is a valid concern especially with the not committing to voting the one you counter-claimed. Or anybody else from what I'm seeing.

[Rogan]

Spoiler: Quotes

Show

I meant that really only confirms Emmy isn't lying about her power, not anything that matters more, like her alignment.

if she indeed has that power she is neutral, we just want to get her win con out of her so we can see if she is truly neutral or if she needs someone to die

Screw it... I wanted to add quotes and everything, but there happened so much, I can't keep up right now. Still using mobile, with makes organizing harder...


So, I agree that Bat is very likely a wolf.
I don't think I can say anything new about it.


I would like to let you all know, I have a bad feeling about AV.
Some part of it might be her (?) wolf read for me, but there are multiple things that make me unhappy.

In my point of view, AV keeps her count of neutral players very low. And at least once, she ignored a statement that there might be multiple Neutrals.
I don't know what the reason for this behavior is, but it feels strange to me.

Another thing is Apogee.
When I directly asked if we should verify the claim and how we should go for it in order to avoid outing important roles, the response was basically, we can not verify the claim (baring a lynch / kill).
But later, she said something akin to "Trust, but verify".

Another thing that feels like a contradiction:
Knowing Apogee is Town (by killing) would be bad&boring. A sure way for town to win.
But on the other hand, there is the advice to trust Apogee.
How is a living Apogee with the trust of all the players different to a dead Apogee and a living Sibling?



About the possibilities of a wolf Apogee:
Either, the Role was not fixed at town, but random. In this case there would be a wolf team with very limited power and they try to get the best out of it.

@Gac Can you confirm that no role had a guaranteed alignment?


I DO think that it's very unlikely that the Siblings are in different teams.

@Gac Can you confirm the Siblings have to share the alignment?

I could see the Siblings not being in the game at all.
There are multiple Neutral claims and I could definitely see more than one being valid.
Even one Neutral would allow for the Siblings being out, but it's unlikely.
But if four roles or more are not active, the Siblings seem like good roles to exclude, since everybody can make QTs. The only powers they have are
They can trust each other.
Their QT is save against intruders. If I understand that one neutral power correctly.


I'd be glad for some Neutral to let me know if my points about AV are reasonable. Jeen? What do you think?
Of course, everybody else is welcome to share their thoughts as well

--------

Waiting for some replies about Jeens Plan before I change my Vote.

I was asked to confirm whether some roles had to be certain alignments.

When making the game I used a RNG to decide alignments. With the exception of neutral roles being rolls not included in the OP, no role was 100% guaranteed to be a certain alignment. Though I did use arbitrary odds for many of them to make them more to be a town or wolf role. Alignment assignment was not impacted by the results of anyone else's alignment roll unless you count the fact that each wolf made it less likely there would be another.

That's very true. No way we vote can prove her alignment through this vote.



Emmy's full name is EmmyNecromancer. I'm guessing that's what he meant.


Also, if you like my idea... any interest in voting either BatCat or Emmy, rather than RA?

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Vote Count:

Rogue_Alchemist (3): Flat_Footed, BookWombat, Jeenleen
Batcathat (11): EmmyNecromancer, Murska, Apogee1, AvatarVecna, Valmark, Elenna, Rogue_Alchemist, Totadileplayz, Xihirli, CaoimhinTheCape, Zelphas, Rogan
Totadileplayz (1): Batcathat
BookWombat (1): Libro
Xirili (1): Mornshine
CaoimhinTheCape (2): Snowblaze, Bladescape
EmmyNecromancer (1): Shal06

If her Power is real, It has to be a Neutral role. Unless I misunderstood the rules.


Correct.

Oh, you're right Rogan. It would confirm it as a role not in the opening post and therefore not Town or Wolf.

Follow up questions:

Are the Power description complete?
Or can there be an additional power?


The Op did not say anything about the Siblings knowing the Alignment of their counterpart. Well, it stated "knowledge of" with could include Alignment.

Gac? I guess a clarification about wether this knowledge includes the alignment would be too much?




Oh come on... If Xi and I agree some more, I will start to doubt my own alignment! This is not serious.

Would not knowing who Apollo is be that bad?
Or are you afraid that there might not be a child of Apollo, so it would not be a tie?

By the way, did we get an answer to the question if we can see the final vote count, including every vote-changing power?
Not who voted for who, but the total number of votes everybody has received?




This sounds believable.
I think, your claim is valid and I would be cool with you succeeding.

Which option would you pick? 1 or 2?

After getting about 10 hours of sleep (yeah for not having to work today) I'm back to this game.

Here are some observations I made!

Xi thought we couldn't verify the alignment of Emmy, Shal pointing out that seeing her power work would prove her to be neutral.

Later, Cao states it would be impossible to know the alignment. I explain that new power == neutral role.

I think Cao simply did not see the first time this question was asked, but I still wanted to point this out in case it will be relevant later.

Another thing is, nobody but Xi commented on my observations regarding AV. See the quotes above. I would really like to have someone to tell me if I'm overreacting to minor details (quite possible) or if these points are reasonable.


Other open questions from the quotes above.:

Spoiler: Primarily for Gac

Show

Are the Power description complete?
Or can there be an additional power? (For the named roles. Neutrals of course have their own, unknown powers)

Is the alignment of the counterpart included in the knowledge of each other of the siblings?

Final vote count, see below.

Spoiler: @Everyone

Show

Did we get an answer to the question if we can see the final vote count, including every vote-changing power?
Not who voted for who, but the total number of votes everybody has received?

Spoiler: @Emmy

Show

If you win, what option will you pick?
Declare winner and leave
Declare winner and stay
Continue playing as if nothing has changed

[Snowblaze]

Probably not the best person to talk about AV, but I’ll see what I can do.

The neutral thing goes against a wolf motivation imo; wolves would want to overstate the neutral count to allow room for fakeclaims.

And the Apogee thing is... hang on, let me go and reread.

My default position is “treat mechanical speculation as NAI” so I’ll probably stick to that especially as circumstances have changed quite a lot since that AV post. I don’t agree with it but that’s no reason it can’t be town.

So overall, I’d lean more towards overreacting to minor details but... you know, this is AV, they should never be trusted.

[rogue_alchemist]

If some people stay inactive, perhaps a few (who will be online late enough) should be pre-desingated to move their votes to set it up as desired. As already stated, I worry about our more-inactive not being around to move their vote. But if 2 folk don't vote for Emmy, then 2 could drop off Batcathat and still get the right ratio.

And I'm playing ball: EmmyNecromancer.

I will be around toward EOD and should be able to swing my vote if need-be. It doesn't have to be as dramatic as you say. If Emmy is 3 behind BatCatHat, then 1 person switch their vote from BCH to Emmy and it will only be 1 away. Or other such numbers play. We can see how the vote is shaking out as the hour closes in.

I can see why you'd think that, as I've clearly played this very weirdly. I suspect Apogee and/or my secret "sibling" is gonna have some tough questions to answer.

I would find it very funny if there actually are two Children of Iris in the game and both ended up getting lynched, me for... well, literally unbelievable stupidity mainly and the other one for looking really shady after my death. Ah, well. We'll see how it plays out.

Well after you die, if your claim is true of being a neutral, then that would actually give creedance to your sibling, not make them more wolfish. They only look more wolfish if you flip wolf after dying. I am pointing this out mainly for improving your future play (as you claim you are learning from all this).

Discussion seems to have stalled a bit - probably something to do with the outed wolf. Let’s see what I can do to get it moving again: who do people think Batcathat’s partners could be?

Caoimhin and Elenna are top of my suspect list after a re-read (speaking of Caoimhin could you please answer my question about why you townread Batcathat earlier?)

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Because a neutral with no stake in the game could betray town purely for the lulz? I’d rather not have that happen.

I assume you mean [wolf!]BatCatHat's partners not (by some weird play as BCH is claiming) [neutral!]BCH's sibling? In that case I think the vote movements are very telling, but I am going to wait until D2 to post more about that so that it doesn't put a target on my back if I do have it figured out. I know the past two games the wolves have been figured out D1 by people who didn't realize how accurate they were, but they were killed soon after by either 'mis'lynching or NK.

As far at Emmy's move after winning, I completely agree with SnowBlaze that a neutral staying in-game after their Win-con is bad for town, as they can do whatever they want with impunity and town would have to waste a lynch on getting rid of them that doesn't really catch wolves, and doesn't reveal info.

Does anyone have an accurate countdown (as of when you post the answer) to when the day ends, specifically (obviously Gac3 might be a little late or whatever, but at least we know the goal)?

[Batcathat]

Well after you die, if your claim is true of being a neutral, then that would actually give creedance to your sibling, not make them more wolfish. They only look more wolfish if you flip wolf after dying. I am pointing this out mainly for improving your future play (as you claim you are learning from all this).

I see what you mean and maybe you're right. The reason I thought it might look bad for them is that Apogee didn't just say "Hey, someone else claimed Iris kid too" but that my claim was straight-up false, which struck me as odd (considering my questionable standing at that point, I probably would've been screwed just a suggestion that I might be fake-claiming but still). I'm also leaning towards there probably not being multiple children of the same deity among the neutrals, since they're so few, but that's admittedly just a guess.

I guess I can think of another reason why Apogee would be so sure, so maybe I'm making more of it than it is.

Oh, well. I kinda hope you're wrong, since it would be more entertaining but as my judgement haven't exactly been stellar lately, I suppose you might not be. It is indeed quite the learning experience.

Does anyone have an accurate countdown (as of when you post the answer) to when the day ends, specifically (obviously Gac3 might be a little late or whatever, but at least we know the goal)?

Timezones confuse me, but I think it should be in 14ish hours?