The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

[Beni-Kujaku]

Interesting ability scores here. +18, and quite focused. Acid flesh is the now well-known ability "Your armor and gear must be made in something better than steel, but you're a bit better in melee". And it's really not the best use of this ability there is. Destroy the weapons that hit you after you take damage, it busts your disguise everytime anyone touches you, and it's not enough damage to matter in a fight, especially at ECL 8. But apart from that, there's nothing here. Improved Grab when you're medium and have Fey RHD? Yeah sure. Reflective Disguise and Mending as the spells are some of the worst SLAs you can get. As I said, anybody who even touches you will notice that your disguise is fake, and Mending doesn't do anything for the gear you're destroying, since it doesn't restore HP per se. Why does anyone think they're +0, again? That seems like a solid LA -0 to me. 8 RHD with low BAB on a fighter-type is not good. And no, this isn't a face. Like, at all. They have no skill bonus to anything facey, and their disguise (which, incidentally, only allows them to do the same job as a normal human in most cases) breaks super easily, even more so since it doesn't include clothing! You look like a human, right, but your clothes are melting. That's a bit suspicious to me. It's meant for an ambush, not as a face.

[Tzardok]

After looking at Troacctid's table, I think I can agree with +0.

[Beni-Kujaku]

After looking at Troacctid's table, I think I can agree with +0.

That table puts on the same level things that should not (like even showing the kind of useless improved grab) ‚ and hides a lot of problems‚ like the inability to wear and use most weapons‚ the unuseability of reflective disguise in a real situation‚ the fact that almost no weapon will be outright destroyed‚ even if they hit you once or twice‚ the fact that rogue and ninja qualify for way more prestige classes than the Bile...

[Tzardok]

That table puts on the same level things that should not (like even showing the kind of useless improved grab) ‚

It would be quite disingenous to hide things one party gets, even if you think they are useless.

the unuseability of reflective disguise in a real situation‚

It doesn't seem unuseable to me.

the fact that rogue and ninja qualify for way more prestige classes than the Bile...

How is that relevant to LA? I'm pretty sure "qualifies for prestige classes" wasn't used for determining before.

[Debatra]

Actually, how you would go about advancing a character is very relevant. We talk about what classes you could go into as a particular creature all the time, and prestige classes are definitely a part of that.

That said, Beni is also making quite the assumption that everyone is going to make their save to disbelieve Reflective Disguise.

[Troacctid]

Rogue and ninja are both frontloaded classes, so you could easily argue that the monster gains more by advancing into their first couple levels of either class than the LA +0 character would gain by advancing the next couple levels after 8. In fact, give me a minute and I'll add that to the table.

[Blue Jay]

Interesting ability scores here. +18, and quite focused. Acid flesh is the now well-known ability "Your armor and gear must be made in something better than steel, but you're a bit better in melee". And it's really not the best use of this ability there is. Destroy the weapons that hit you after you take damage, it busts your disguise everytime anyone touches you, and it's not enough damage to matter in a fight, especially at ECL 8. But apart from that, there's nothing here. Improved Grab when you're medium and have Fey RHD? Yeah sure. Reflective Disguise and Mending as the spells are some of the worst SLAs you can get. As I said, anybody who even touches you will notice that your disguise is fake, and Mending doesn't do anything for the gear you're destroying, since it doesn't restore HP per se. Why does anyone think they're +0, again? That seems like a solid LA -0 to me. 8 RHD with low BAB on a fighter-type is not good. And no, this isn't a face. Like, at all. They have no skill bonus to anything facey, and their disguise (which, incidentally, only allows them to do the same job as a normal human in most cases) breaks super easily, even more so since it doesn't include clothing! You look like a human, right, but your clothes are melting. That's a bit suspicious to me. It's meant for an ambush, not as a face.

I think I generally agree with your overall assessment --- a bile wrapped in beauty makes a pretty weak PC --- but there are a couple specific points you made that I disagree with:

First, the reflective disguise isn't automatically broken by someone touching you. They also have to make a Will save, and they only get the save if they interact with the glamer directly (i.e., by doing something other than looking at it). Granted, it's a 2nd-level spell, so the DC won't hold up well at higher levels; but since SLAs default to using Cha, and the Bile has a good boost to its Cha, you might be able to keep it relevant for most of the game.

Second, the paragraph describing how the bile's clothing is destroyed is a bit problematic. For one, if it's the Acid Flesh ability that destroys the bile's clothing, it shouldn't take a day or two: it should be over in a couple rounds. Also, the Acid Flesh ability says it only damages metallic weapons, and weapons made form other materials are unaffected. I'm tempted to argue that Acid Flesh doesn't apply to objects other than metallic weapons at all: objects are degraded in a slower way that the writer's didn't think was worth writing mechanics for.

Third, it also says pretty directly that mending does work for counteracting the bile's degradation effect, so I don't think you can really argue that it can't be used to repair gear.

And fourth, I don't see how you can say that this isn't a face at all: it has most of the face skills (just lacking Gather Information and Sense Motive) as in-class and plenty of skill points to spend on them, and it has a +6 racial bonus to Charisma, which boosts pretty much all of those skills. Plus, reflective disguise can be pretty useful, if you're creative: e.g., you can sneak into the orc city, or confuse goblins in mid-combat, or lose the town guards in a crowd.

All in all, though, I don't think I can rate this higher than you did: the stat boosts are a bit on the low side for 8 HD; its best combat abilities work at melee range, where its fey HD are a handicap; and it doesn't have any real stand-out abilities that you can build around.

My vote is LA -0 for the Bile Wrapped in Beauty.

-----

Also, put me down as another vote to rate the astral taskers.

[Thurbane]

Yeah, I'm really borderline on this.

As a monster/NPC it's pretty nice and flavourful - I have one with Cancer Mage levels as a MBEG for one of my campaigns.

As a PC? Hard to call between LA +0 and LA -0.

I might do a more detailed breakdown later, but for now, I'm feeling LA -0. I don't think the abilities are worth those 8 RHD.

[Temotei]

Kind of torn between -0 and +0. I guess I'll go -0 for now. I think the rogue comes out ahead, and that's before taking into account the LA 0 race that rogue has. It's not a big lead, but it's enough, I suppose.

+0

[Beni-Kujaku]

That said, Beni is also making quite the assumption that everyone is going to make their save to disbelieve Reflective Disguise.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying everyone will notice their hand starts melting when they touch it‚ which‚ even if they don't make their Will save‚ will tell them that this is definitely not a member of their race.

And fourth, I don't see how you can say that this isn't a face at all: it has most of the face skills (just lacking Gather Information and Sense Motive) as in-class and plenty of skill points to spend on them, and it has a +6 racial bonus to Charisma, which boosts pretty much all of those skills. Plus, reflective disguise can be pretty useful, if you're creative: e.g., you can sneak into the orc city, or confuse goblins in mid-combat, or lose the town guards in a crowd.

Indeed for the charisma bonus on skills. That's not that much but with Fey skills it can really make a differrnce. But for disguise to sneak in a city or lose guards in a crowd... If the city is crowded enough‚ there will be physical contact between people‚ especially if you're trying to move quickly in a crowd. I don't think you're gonna lose anyone if you leave a trail of corpses behind you.

[Troacctid]

As a PC? Hard to call between LA +0 and LA +1.

I might do a more detailed breakdown later, but for now, I'm feeling LA -0. I don't think the abilities are worth those 8 RHD.

If it's hard to call between +0 and +1, how do you end up at -0?

[liquidformat]

How is that relevant to LA? I'm pretty sure "qualifies for prestige classes" wasn't used for determining before.

PRCs are very relevant to the rating especially for anything with more than 5hd. This is where I really disagree with Troacctid's comparison, whether intentional or not it is a bad faith comparison similar to people who use barbarian 8 as a comparison point or fighter 8. No one actually does that and as the +0 race you are not restricted to that and that fact is powerful. If we want to compare BwiB to a melee rogue which seems reasonable we should be comparing it to (on the low end) rogue 3/swashbuckler 5 who would be dipping swordsage at level 9 or for a more standard tier 3 comparison rogue 5/assassin 1/unseen seer 2 or even just straight swordsage 8. In any of these three cases if falls well behind, it is all around worse than a daring outlaw build which sits somewhere in tier 4 at best.

The fact is BwiB is locked into 8 levels of BwiB so it needs to have enough going for it that 8 levels are a reasonable investment and I am just not seeing it. Acid immunity and fire vulnerability can't even be considered a wash because acid is rather uncommon and fire is the most common energy type in the game so that is a net loss. Giving improved grab and making acid kind of work off grappling is also a net loss as grappling is a loosing strategy in 3.5. Even if grappling was good BwiB is in no way a grappler she is around 10 attack points low to be competent at grappling. If we go further BwiB is damaging most weapons that attack her and equipment she is wearing, it says it right there in her monster entry she destroys what she wears and mending helps it to last longer but she is still destroying things that are in contact with her for long periods of time. Finally we get to her fourth rate joke of a disguise, she has no control over what she is disguised as, that is completely up to the viewer which causes major issues if she is around multiple races or sexes as the lady starts calling BwiB a her and the male starts calling BwiB a him, the dwarf claims BwiB to be a dwarf while the ogre says BwiB is clearly an ogre. Its a crap spell that doesn't even cover BwiB's clothing and the point of standard disguise spell is to sneak into places while BwiB's is simply so others don't immediately recognize her as a rot monster, so it is in no way helping you with the normal point of a disguise. It is also much easier to break than normal duisguise spell or skill. Mending is in general a pretty useless 0 level spell and it is only there to help BwiB have equipment for more than a day.

Altogether that leaves you with what dr 5/cold iron and +4 na and net 18 ability scores; wow that was a great investment of 8 levels I am really glad I did that, not. This thing is a red herring it has almost nothing good, it is a very straightforward -0.

Rogue and ninja are both frontloaded classes, so you could easily argue that the monster gains more by advancing into their first couple levels of either class than the LA +0 character would gain by advancing the next couple levels after 8. In fact, give me a minute and I'll add that to the table.

While I agree with you that BwiB definitely gets much more out of rogue or ninja 2 than than a rogue 8 or ninja 8 do; I disagree with the whole premise of your example there is no reason for them to take rogue 9 and 10 when they have other better options that the BwiB can't qualify for without three or four levels of investment into rogue/ninja.

[InvisibleBison]

I'm going to vote -0 for the BWiB. I just don't see how it can keep up in combat with an 8th level rogue.

[Troacctid]

Anyone with any build is locked into that build. A rogue/swashbuckler is locked into being a rogue/swashbuckler. A ninja/cleric is locked into being a ninja/cleric. Etc. It's not like you can have two builds at once. I mean, you can if you're an anarchomancer, but I don't know that that actually counts. Kind of a weird complaint.

While I agree with you that BwiB definitely gets much more out of rogue or ninja 2 than than a rogue 8 or ninja 8 do; I disagree with the whole premise of your example there is no reason for them to take rogue 9 and 10 when they have other better options that the BwiB can't qualify for without three or four levels of investment into rogue/ninja.

So you believe they are unplayable when single-class?

I'm going to vote -0 for the BWiB. I just don't see how it can keep up in combat with an 8th level rogue.

You're essentially trading 2d6 sneak attack for +8 Dex, which seems like a reasonable deal to me.

[InvisibleBison]

You're essentially trading 2d6 sneak attack for +8 Dex, which seems like a reasonable deal to me.

I don't really see how. Yes, having a much higher dex is quite nice, but it doesn't help you actually win a fight. A BWiB is going to be doing 1 attack per round, while a rogue can make two or three depending on whether they're using TWF. The guy who's hard to hit but can't actually kill anything is a well-known useless character archetype, and it seems to me that the BWiB falls hard into that niche.

Also, the BWiB doesn't get Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently as a class skill, so it can't really compete in two major rogue non-combat areas either.

[Troacctid]

I don't really see how. Yes, having a much higher dex is quite nice, but it doesn't help you actually win a fight. A BWiB is going to be doing 1 attack per round, while a rogue can make two or three depending on whether they're using TWF. The guy who's hard to hit but can't actually kill anything is a well-known useless character archetype, and it seems to me that the BWiB falls hard into that niche.

Also, the BWiB doesn't get Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently as a class skill, so it can't really compete in two major rogue non-combat areas either.

Why can't Bwibs do multiple attacks? Why don't high Dex and Str help win fights? And is ignoring sneak attack immunity in exchange for doing a little less damage not a good trade-off anymore, because if so, you can be the one to tell the swift hunters about it.

[danielxcutter]

Why can't Bwibs do multiple attacks? Why don't high Dex and Str help win fights? And is ignoring sneak attack immunity in exchange for doing a little less damage not a good trade-off anymore, because if so, you can be the one to tell the swift hunters about it.

…Because no iteratives for a while? Also can this thing even hold weapons? Y’know, because of the acid.

[Troacctid]

…Because no iteratives for a while? Also can this thing even hold weapons? Y’know, because of the acid.

Yeah, but there's a secondary natural attack that you can use as a bonus attack.

And yes you can hold weapons (although unarmed strikes and natural weapons are better because they get the acid damage).

[Tzardok]

…Because no iteratives for a while? Also can this thing even hold weapons? Y’know, because of the acid.

The acid only affects metal weapons quickly enough to matter. Give it a club or a quarterstaff and it gets its iteratives.

[Metastachydium]

The acid only affects metal weapons quickly enough to matter. Give it a club or a quarterstaff and it gets its iteratives.

Yeah, at around what? 11th level for the first one? Even with a full BAB class it has to wait until level 10.

[liquidformat]

Anyone with any build is locked into that build. A rogue/swashbuckler is locked into being a rogue/swashbuckler. A ninja/cleric is locked into being a ninja/cleric. Etc. It's not like you can have two builds at once. I mean, you can if you're an anarchomancer, but I don't know that that actually counts. Kind of a weird complaint.

Yes and no, locking yourself into a specific build and being locked into monster levels are pretty different. I can decide on the fly that my build isn't working well and tweak it with a rogue you can't do that with a monster. Furthermore, I have the choice to go into a daring outlaw build, an assassin build, a rogue/wizard/unseen seer build or so forth when I choose to be a standard race and rogue. If I choose to be a monster I am locked into that and only that for ECL required for said monster. The point of this exercise is saying yes this monster is worth the ECL investment it requires, it is not worht the investment, or it is too good for its RHD and requires LA.

So you believe they are unplayable when single-class?

I mean you are the one who created your own tiering of the base classes you tell me. From my reading of your own class tiering it can be construed that a single classed rogue, barbarian, or fighter can't keep up with a single classed wizard, druid, or cleric...

You're essentially trading 2d6 sneak attack for +8 Dex, which seems like a reasonable deal to me.

No you are trading 4d6 sneak attack, an iterative, and possibly/probably the use of metal weapons for +8 dex and +4 str which doesn't seem like that great of a trade to me to be honest. Also you either get only one attack per round with 2d6 acid damage or you can use a weapon with iteratives you can't do both.

[Thurbane]

If it's hard to call between +0 and +1, how do you end up at -0?

Would you believe typo, because I was trying to work and type at the same time?

In the context of what I posted, I have a sneaking suspicion you already knew this (maybe not the work part)...

[Debatra]

Also you either get only one attack per round with 2d6 acid damage or you can use a weapon with iteratives you can't do both.

Actually, you can. If you attack with a manufactured weapon alongside a natural weapon, the natural weapon is treated as secondary even if it would normally be primary.

PRCs are very relevant to the rating especially for anything with more than 5hd. This is where I really disagree with Troacctid's comparison, whether intentional or not it is a bad faith comparison similar to people who use barbarian 8 as a comparison point or fighter 8. No one actually does that and as the +0 race you are not restricted to that and that fact is powerful. If we want to compare BwiB to a melee rogue which seems reasonable we should be comparing it to (on the low end) rogue 3/swashbuckler 5 who would be dipping swordsage at level 9 or for a more standard tier 3 comparison rogue 5/assassin 1/unseen seer 2 or even just straight swordsage 8. In any of these three cases if falls well behind, it is all around worse than a daring outlaw build which sits somewhere in tier 4 at best.

Keep in mind we try to compare things to relatively simple builds here. Once we start getting into "X 3/Y 2 with an eventual dip into Z", the entire thing starts to fall apart a bit.

[Troacctid]

Yes and no, locking yourself into a specific build and being locked into monster levels are pretty different. I can decide on the fly that my build isn't working well and tweak it with a rogue you can't do that with a monster. Furthermore, I have the choice to go into a daring outlaw build, an assassin build, a rogue/wizard/unseen seer build or so forth when I choose to be a standard race and rogue. If I choose to be a monster I am locked into that and only that for ECL required for said monster. The point of this exercise is saying yes this monster is worth the ECL investment it requires, it is not worht the investment, or it is too good for its RHD and requires LA.

A level 8 rogue cannot decide on the fly to become a level 8 dread necromancer. Retraining does not work that way.

I mean you are the one who created your own tiering of the base classes you tell me. From my reading of your own class tiering it can be construed that a single classed rogue, barbarian, or fighter can't keep up with a single classed wizard, druid, or cleric...

Are you saying you would give single-class rogue a -0 LA? Because that's not really the standard we're working off of in this thread.

They totally can keep up, by the way, at least for most of the campaign.

No you are trading 4d6 sneak attack, an iterative, and possibly/probably the use of metal weapons for +8 dex and +4 str which doesn't seem like that great of a trade to me to be honest. Also you either get only one attack per round with 2d6 acid damage or you can use a weapon with iteratives you can't do both.

Or you could use unarmed strikes, or touch attacks, or even take totemist levels and go full natural attack build. Or swordsage, or warblade, or diplomancer, or any number of prestige classes. You also get a free grapple attempt on a hit, which is a great way to hose enemy casters, and if the attempt fails, who cares? It was free.

I bet I could come up with at least four interesting builds for this monster just off the top of my head.

[InvisibleBison]

And is ignoring sneak attack immunity in exchange for doing a little less damage not a good trade-off anymore, because if so, you can be the one to tell the swift hunters about it.

My previous posts were made under the impression that the rogue would be doing a lot more damage than the BWiB - after all, if she can make 3 sneak attacks that's 12d6 sneak attack on top of weapon damage compared to the BWiB's 2d6 acid damage. But then I went to calculate the actual average damage, and I found that I was significantly underestimating the effect of the BWiB's higher to-hit bonus. Against AC 17 (that of the dire tiger, a randomly chosen CR 8 monster), the BWiB deals an average of 8.23875 damage per full attack while the rogue deals 11.0075 (assuming my math is right, of course). The numbers are in the rogue's favor, though not as much as I'd expected. Of course, average damage isn't necessarily the best indicator of combat utility, and the rogue does has a much higher max damage than the BWiB. I'm not ready to change my vote yet, but I'm less confident in it than I was before doing this analysis.

[liquidformat]

A level 8 rogue cannot decide on the fly to become a level 8 dread necromancer. Retraining does not work that way.

Yes I understand that but when creating a rogue with 8 levels to work with I have many options from doing a daring outlaw build, to caster rogue hybrid and so forth. If I instead choose to be a BWiB I am very much locked into 8 levels of BWiB. It is the same for all monster classes you are trading the versatility of build for the power you get from those monster levels.

Are you saying you would give single-class rogue a -0 LA? Because that's not really the standard we're working off of in this thread.

They totally can keep up, by the way, at least for most of the campaign.[/QUOTE]
That really depends on the game but there is a reason a lot of dms allow tier 4 and below classes to gestalt with each other.

Granted that does go beyond this thread. We are supposed to try and use tier 3 comparisons when possible so swordsage is probably the better comparison here than a ninja or a rogue.

Or you could use unarmed strikes, or touch attacks, or even take totemist levels and go full natural attack build. Or swordsage, or warblade, or diplomancer, or any number of prestige classes. You also get a free grapple attempt on a hit, which is a great way to hose enemy casters, and if the attempt fails, who cares? It was free.

I bet I could come up with at least four interesting builds for this monster just off the top of my head.[/QUOTE]

True there are some options out there to utilize BWiB's acid damage and they would be needed. That still leaves the fact that BWiB needs work to be viable, in combat it is worse than a rogue, out of combat it is worse than a rogue. All around it is worse than a rogue...

And is ignoring sneak attack immunity in exchange for doing a little less damage not a good trade-off anymore, because if so, you can be the one to tell the swift hunters about it.

I mean rogue does have penetrating strike so once the rogue build gets a fifth SA dice they are capable of doing more damage to creatures immune to criticals on the other hand the BWiB is just out of luck against anything immune to acid damage granted that isn't a huge population.

My previous posts were made under the impression that the rogue would be doing a lot more damage than the BWiB - after all, if she can make 3 sneak attacks that's 12d6 sneak attack on top of weapon damage compared to the BWiB's 2d6 acid damage. But then I went to calculate the actual average damage, and I found that I was significantly underestimating the effect of the BWiB's higher to-hit bonus.

It is probably worth while looking at adding craven at the very least if not also daring outlaw build. Either of which move the damage potential further into the rogue's corner.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Craven isn't a good example, since the BwiB can pick it up in just one level and receive exactly the same benefit a Rogue would. However, a BwiB will have delayed access to feats like Staggering Strike that require a certain number of SA dice.

[liquidformat]

Craven isn't a good example, since the BwiB can pick it up in just one level and receive exactly the same benefit a Rogue would. However, a BwiB will have delayed access to feats like Staggering Strike that require a certain number of SA dice.

That assumes BwiB goes into rogue or something with SA which I don't think is a particularly good choice. As Troacctid said going totemist, initiator, or even psychic warrior/war mind and focusing on unarmed and natural attacks seems like a better option. BwiB is missing the key rogue skills like hide/move silently and open locks/disable device. BwiB really doesn't have much that is particularly rogue like and would honestly get more out of a going initiator than trying to patch up her almost rogue but not at all rogue build.

[Troacctid]

Yes I understand that but when creating a rogue with 8 levels to work with I have many options from doing a daring outlaw build, to caster rogue hybrid and so forth. If I instead choose to be a BWiB I am very much locked into 8 levels of BWiB. It is the same for all monster classes you are trading the versatility of build for the power you get from those monster levels.

Really sounds like you don't understand it, because you're still suggesting that the rogue can go back and retroactively change their build after they've already decided on one and reached level 8 in it. Rogues don't even qualify for anarchomancer!

That really depends on the game but there is a reason a lot of dms allow tier 4 and below classes to gestalt with each other.

Granted that does go beyond this thread. We are supposed to try and use tier 3 comparisons when possible so swordsage is probably the better comparison here than a ninja or a rogue.

If you think tier 4 classes are worth -0 LA, then no offense, but you've completely missed the point of the tier list. No, we're not supposed to only compare monsters to tier 3 classes, that's nonsense. The goal is to make monsters playable, not to land all of them at the exact same power level. Go look at the archive thread and read the guidelines again.

It is probably worth while looking at adding craven at the very least if not also daring outlaw build. Either of which move the damage potential further into the rogue's corner.

If you think daring outlaw is a playable build, then you already agree that a rogue can reasonably afford to give up all its class features and most of its skills in order to have higher base stats. Why is +3 BAB more valuable than a whole +18 net ability scores?

[Metastachydium]

If you think daring outlaw is a playable build, then you already agree that a rogue can reasonably afford to give up all its class features and most of its skills in order to have higher base stats. Why is +3 BAB more valuable than a whole +18 net ability scores?

+3 BAB plus free Weapon Finesse plus free Ref bonus plus Int to damage… The first few levels of swashbuckler have nice stuff!