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  1. - Top - End - #1051
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    I think Psychic Warrior, Whirling Frenzy Barbarian, and swordsage are probably the best comparison points for the 'Brood Money'. Having -6 int puts you clearly into beatstick category though -2 str makes that a hard sell. With -2 Str and 2 bab this effectively makes you comparable to bab for Psychic warrior or swordsage, if this thing just had +6 net ability scores, flurry with simple weapons, a couple of SLAs that are not particularly good and forgettable after 2-3 levels, and alertness I would say this is -0 LA as it falls short of all three comparison points. The real question here is how much of a boost does enchantment immunity give you and how long is it effect it. To be honest most pcs try to snag some form of enchantment immunity between 5-15 so this puts you slightly ahead of the curve and means you don't have to spend WBL or later levels to obtain it. In the end though this thing doesn't have anything particularly offensively powerful and its best class choices are things like barbarian which it takes a hit to due to -2 str, psychic warrior or swordsage which it takes a hit to due to -6 int and 2 bab. Over all this thing is pretty subpar sure it doesn't have to worry about being mindjacked but it will take some work to make it a threat as it is stuck in beatstick zone and doesn't make for a very good beatstick at that. I wouldn't touch this thing at +1 LA and I don't even think it is very high on the +0 LA scale but I would be willing to try it out at +0 LA.
    Wait, how does having higher BAB than psychic warrior/swordsage from RHD hurt those options?
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  2. - Top - End - #1052
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    +0: liquidformat
    +1: H_H_F_F, Troacctid, Caelestion, Beni-Kujaku, PoeticallyPsyco, Temotei
    +2: loky1109

    WotC actually got pretty close on this one. Brownies are next. (Spoiler Alert: They actually have a "Brownies as Characters" section.)
    Kaedanis Pyran, tai faernae.

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    Realistically speaking... D&D style magic doesn't exist, so... let's ignore reality.

  3. - Top - End - #1053
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never


    So the "Brownies as Characters" section makes the usual chart a bit redundant, but I'm doing it anyway.

    Size & Type: Tiny Fey
    Space/Reach: 2.5'/0'
    HD: 1/2
    Speed: 30'
    Ability Scores: Str -6, Dex +10, Con +2, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +2 - Net +12, one penalty
    Natural Armor: 0
    Natural Weapons: N/A
    Skill List: +2 Racial to Craft (By RHD: Balance, Craft (Any One), Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble)
    Body Shape: Humanoid
    Speech (Languages): Yes (Automatic: Common, Halfling, Sylvan. Bonus: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Goblin, Gnome.)
    CR: 3
    WotC LA: +4
    Our LA: +2

    So... I kinda wish that "as Characters" section didn't exist. There are things listed in the monster entry that are different, mostly to the "monstrous" Brownie's benefit. Compared to the "as Characters" ones; the "monstrous" Brownie gets an additional +2 to Con and Int, a +2 racial bonus to Spot and Listen, Dodge as a bonus feat, and can use their Dexterity modifier for Climb checks. All for the same LA. (And shortsword proficiency, for whatever that's worth to you.)

    In exchange, they lose scaling for the CL of their SLAs and Calm Animal supernatural ability, each of which are a flat 7 for the "monster" and 7+character level for the "player".

    At any rate, it exists, and that is what we will be rating.

    30' Darkvision (which Fey don't automatically have), Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Wild Empathy as a 7th-level Druid, and a not-terrible version of Hide in Plain Sight make for an interesting chassis. They can replicate a Calm Animals spell with a supernatural ability targeting a single Animal within 30' as a free action, with a 24-hour immunity clause regardless of the result of the Charisma-based save. As mentioned above, the CL for this as well as their SLAs is 7+character level. The save for this is also 14+ChaMod, and I'm not sure where the extra three is coming from considering that Calm Animals is a first-level spell because the monster entry gives them a +3 racial bonus to the DC that the character entry apparently kept without mentioning.

    Speaking of the SLAs, there are some decent ones, each once per day and with Charisma-based saves: Confusion, Dancing Lights, Daylight, Dimension Door, Protection from Evil, and Ventriloquism.

    Evasion and Uncanny Dodge upgrade to their Improved versions if you get them again from a class. This is already a rule for Uncanny Dodge, though I don't remember off the top of my head if the same is true for Evasion. Their Hide in Plain Sight works "in areas of dim light, tall grass, or heavy undergrowth".

    So what Favored Class might you expect with this package? Ranger? Rogue? Maybe Druid?

    Expert. Really, WotC?
    Last edited by Debatra; 2022-01-24 at 07:21 AM.
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    It is a major flaw in the game. Destroy a moon? Sure. Talk to somebody a hundred miles away, that's going to be difficult.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    Realistically speaking... D&D style magic doesn't exist, so... let's ignore reality.

  4. - Top - End - #1054
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Okay, I'm not even surprised you went there for the image joke.
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  5. - Top - End - #1055
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Of course expert. They are house elves. What else should the fey embodiment of service in the house get?

  6. - Top - End - #1056
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Okay, I'm not even surprised you went there for the image joke.
    I specifically didn't want to, but then I saw the "Fairytale Brownies" brand and I quickly changed my mind.
    Last edited by Debatra; 2022-01-09 at 01:52 PM.
    Kaedanis Pyran, tai faernae.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SassyQuatch View Post
    It is a major flaw in the game. Destroy a moon? Sure. Talk to somebody a hundred miles away, that's going to be difficult.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    Realistically speaking... D&D style magic doesn't exist, so... let's ignore reality.

  7. - Top - End - #1057
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Okay this is really good though. Very strong SLAs, huge Dex, Tiny, no RHD, upgradable evasion, and HiPS don't lie.

    I think +1 would clearly be too low, and +2 and +3 are theoretically both defensible, but at +3 it would be competing with the reassigned pixie, which would just make it unplayable in comparison. I put it at +2.

  8. - Top - End - #1058
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Strong +2 or weak +3? I'll go with +3 for now. Good stats‚ acceptable SLAs‚ HiPS.... That seems decent to me.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!

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  9. - Top - End - #1059
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Popping in to note that short swords are martial weapons.
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  10. - Top - End - #1060
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    I'm looking on +3.
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  11. - Top - End - #1061
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    The skill and ability boosts alone are worth +2 LA, so once you add in the SLAs and additional class-like powers, I'm going to go with LA +3.

  12. - Top - End - #1062
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    +1 feels a little low. +2 feels a little high. Guess ill go with tentative +2. anything above +2 in indefensible, imo, but im not planning to get into a debate over this opinion. others are free to disagree.

  13. - Top - End - #1063
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    +2 from me. It's excellent for sure, and the janky caster level on the SLAs can probably be utilized for some cheese - but 3 LA seems too steep for any non-cheese based build I could see using this.
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  14. - Top - End - #1064
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    am I misremembering that druid wildshape options are based on your base size? if that's the case a tiny start might limit the options, but I might be wildly misremembering

    even if not, though, I can't see this as over +2. it's a solid package at +2 for a rogue or druid, but I'm not really sure how it'd handle being a ranger with the size and str penalties.
    Last edited by Emberlily; 2022-01-10 at 02:57 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #1065
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Nah, Wild Shape starts off specifically giving you Small and Medium forms.
    Kaedanis Pyran, tai faernae.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SassyQuatch View Post
    It is a major flaw in the game. Destroy a moon? Sure. Talk to somebody a hundred miles away, that's going to be difficult.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    Realistically speaking... D&D style magic doesn't exist, so... let's ignore reality.

  16. - Top - End - #1066
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Put me down for LA +2, will review and do a more detailed breakdown, time permitting.

  17. - Top - End - #1067
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Quote Originally Posted by Temotei View Post
    Wait, how does having higher BAB than psychic warrior/swordsage from RHD hurt those options?
    I wasn't saying that hurts psychic warrior or swordsage I was saying you effectively have the same bab as psychic warrior/swordsage since you have -2 str and full bab for your first rhd...

    Anyways on to a brownie. I am really not seeing +3 LA here, to warrant +3 la you really need to have abilities that don't drop off in effectiveness past level 10 and all of those SLAs are forgettable by level 5-8, Uncanny dodge and evasion can be gotten with one or two levels, and HiPS can be gotten by level 6 nothing here is particularly useful. This thing is probably going into rogue, swordsage or something similar; if we compare it to say a halfling swordsage 6 vs brownie swordsage 3 +3 la it frankly falls very short; even brownie swordsage 4 falls a bit short of swordsage 6 but it at least kind of keeps up. LA +2 seems correct here.

  18. - Top - End - #1068
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    https://archive.wizards.com/ is dead now or it is my internet issue?
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  19. - Top - End - #1069
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    It's down, again. Time to bust out the Wayback Machine, again.

  20. - Top - End - #1070
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    frown Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    This is why I kept pushing for online monsters - this was pretty much inevitable. Thank goodness for Wayback machine.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    This is why I kept pushing for online monsters - this was pretty much inevitable. Thank goodness for Wayback machine.
    I wonder... what kind of inevitables deals with that?

  22. - Top - End - #1072
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Almost two weeks later and the archives are still down. Combined with the apparent lack of anything else to say about Brownies, I guess we're ready to move on to the Cache Dweller, thanks to the Wayback Machine.

    +2 - Troacctid, Remuko, H_H_F_F, Emberlily, Thurbane, liquidformat
    +3 - Beni-Kujaku, loky1109, Caelestion

    +2
    Kaedanis Pyran, tai faernae.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SassyQuatch View Post
    It is a major flaw in the game. Destroy a moon? Sure. Talk to somebody a hundred miles away, that's going to be difficult.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    Realistically speaking... D&D style magic doesn't exist, so... let's ignore reality.

  23. - Top - End - #1073
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never


    Size & Type: Medium Undead (does not have Incorporeal subtype despite being incorporeal)
    Space/Reach: 5'/5'
    HD: 5
    Speed: Swim 60'
    Ability Scores: Str +4??, Dex +6, Con -, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +6 - Net +18, no penalties
    Natural Armor: 0 (ChaMod to Deflection)
    Natural Weapons: One Primary... Okay, so "Attacks" says "Slam", but a separate "Damage" line says "Incorporeal touch" (1d6... and appears to include StrMod?)
    Skill List: Hide (+10 racial), Intimidate, Spot
    Body Shape: "waterlogged cloak". It at least explicitly has eyes (if maybe not physical ones?) and a mouth.
    Speech (Languages): No
    CR: 7
    WotC LA: -
    Our LA: -0* (Uncapped Spawn Ability)

    ...Are these things incorporeal or not? The writer seems very confused here.

    First thing's first: Uncapped Spawn Ability. Any humanoid (as well as their belongings) killed by a Dweller dissolve into a puddle and transform over 1d4 days. Casting Protection from Evil on the "body" (I guess the puddle?) within that time prevents the transformation. The spawn is uncontrolled.

    Aside from that, +2 Turn Resistance, Sunlight Powerlessness (can't attack and can only take partial actions), and an Unnatural Aura that repels animals and makes them panic if forced to approach closer than 30' cap off an... interesting creature. It also has no listed Fortitude save... Is this 3.0 weirdness or something?

    Engulf... on a supposedly incorporeal creature? Okay then. The target of an engulf attempt can be up to Medium size, and may choose between a Reflex save to avoid it or to just accept it in exchange for an AoO. The Cache Dweller can't make a slam attack in the same round that it tries to Engulf something, though it gets a +6 untyped bonus on attacks against whatever it has engulfed. Engulfed creatures are considered grappled, and any attack that hits the Dweller splits its damage evenly between it and its victim.

    ...There is no listed way to escape, rescue, or release an engulfed creature. Maybe with grapple checks.

    And to think, I almost inflicted this mess onto you guys for Christmas because the name made me think of something that would hide in a gift box...
    Last edited by Debatra; 2022-01-25 at 04:39 PM.
    Kaedanis Pyran, tai faernae.

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    Roland just endorsed a crack pairing?


    Did... did we break the universe?
    Quote Originally Posted by SassyQuatch View Post
    It is a major flaw in the game. Destroy a moon? Sure. Talk to somebody a hundred miles away, that's going to be difficult.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    Realistically speaking... D&D style magic doesn't exist, so... let's ignore reality.

  24. - Top - End - #1074
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    No, this is not 3.0 weirdness (I mean, yes, it's also 3.0, but that doesn't matter), it's simply an incompetent mess. This needs cleanup, and more than anything it needs to decide what it wants to be.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Feels fitting to use the Wayback Machine for something that dwells in the cache. (Okay, so the Wayback Machine's pages aren't technically cached versions, but close enough. )

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    We're going to need a metric buttload of thread rulings to even start with this because it's a mess.
    Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.

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    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    I only noticed that the AC is completely wrong. How do you get 19 when adding 10+3+3?

    Edit: I think this thing works best if we ignore the whole "incorporeal" thing and treat it like an undead piece of water, i.e. like an ooze. The deflection bonus becomes natural armor, the attack becomes a slam, we add a rider to engulf so it becomes escapable (propably copy from the gallert cube), maybe add the Water subtype, and change the description of spawn so that the body dissolves in 1d4 days and when the dissolution is finished, it becomes a new dweller. Thoughts? (Oh yes, we also need to add a fortitude bonus and update the skills.)

  28. - Top - End - #1078
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    Lightbulb Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    It's so bad...
    But... I don't see any troubles use it as it writen. Non-incorporeal, but with incorporeal touch and Cha mod to deflection AC? Why not?
    Fortitude maybe is forgotten because "it's undead".
    Last edited by loky1109; 2022-01-24 at 09:11 AM.
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  29. - Top - End - #1079
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Quote Originally Posted by loky1109 View Post
    It's so bad...
    But... I don't see any troubles use it as it writen. Non-incorporeal, but with incorporeal touch and Cha mod to deflection AC? Why not?
    Fortitude maybe is forgotten because "it's undead".
    I agree with you on the "let's rate it as-is". It doesn't have the incorporeal subtype and it has Strength, so it's not incorporeal. I mean, it doesn't even fly. It just happens to be able to deflect attacks with its mind and attack with a touch attack dealing 1d6+Str. Nothing (too) unusual here. The fact that the attack is called "incorporeal touch" may even allow it to take one or two specific feats.

    That said, Sunlight Powerlessness, only one attack and no way to wield weapons, mediocre "natural armor", 5 Undead RHD preventing it to be any kind of effective caster, along with terrible body shape... I don't see this be anything more than LA-0*, even with Undead immunities, at least if Engulf is escapable. Since the creature is supposed to be grappled and the grappling rules include moving to a space adjacent to your opponent by escaping the grapple (by winning a grapple check), I don't see how it wouldn't escape an engulf, the same way it does for a Gelatinous Cube (note that the wording is almost identical).


    Edit: Also... Challenge Rating 7? What? Why? This thing probably couldn't beat a level 4 fighter in a 1-on-1 fight, even with the fighter suffocating underwater, let alone an entire party. That's the only thing that makes me think that it's actually supposed to be incorporeal (even though the flavor text itself doesn't support this: "not really a ghost at all"; "closer in form to devil rays (or ixitxachitl)"...)
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2022-01-24 at 10:18 AM.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    The fact that the attack is called "incorporeal touch" may even allow it to take one or two specific feats.
    And it can be stopped with some types of armor. Mage Armor, some armor crystal, maybe something more.

    Only swim, 5 bad HD, no Con, but not bad other stats, deflection, Sunlight...
    0 or -0.

    What class do you want to this?
    Last edited by loky1109; 2022-01-24 at 10:21 AM.
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