The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

[Tzardok]

I hereby officially accuse Tzardok of being a swordsage.

I'm not a swordsage, I am a wizard. And a wizard doesn't post late, nor does he post late. He always posts when he intends to.

[danielxcutter]

Clearly Tzardok is a Jade Phoenix Mage

[Beni-Kujaku]

Damn that's a dangerous slam. +10 Str and paralysis? Oh, yeah, also improved grab. Even considering it's a melee undead, I think LA+0 is warranted, maybe even LA+1 (probably not, considering the body shape). It gains skills as a construct, but has no Int, so... it doesn't gain skills. Weird.

[danielxcutter]

Damn that's a dangerous slam. +10 Str and paralysis? Oh, yeah, also improved grab. Even considering it's a melee undead, I think LA+0 is warranted, maybe even LA+1 (probably not, considering the body shape). It gains skills as a construct, but has no Int, so... it doesn't gain skills. Weird.

I mean the thread DOES assume all mindless creatures get an Int score somehow.

That really is a downgrade though; undead actually get more skill points than constructs.

[Tzardok]

Damn that's a dangerous slam. +10 Str and paralysis? Oh, yeah, also improved grab. Even considering it's a melee undead, I think LA+0 is warranted, maybe even LA+1 (probably not, considering the body shape). It gains skills as a construct, but has no Int, so... it doesn't gain skills. Weird.

Another 3.0 weirdness. In 3.0, every creature type had their own rules for how many skill points and feat they got. Constructs simply didn't get any skill points, no matter how intelligent, and undead got (3 x Int score) +2 per hit dice beyond the minimum (extra hit dice, "EHD"). Because of that, some creatures got a rider "gains skill points like [insert better creature type here]". Those riders were IIRC all removed when 3.5 came around. This is the first time where I saw the rider as "gains skill points like [insert worse creature type here]".
If we were to follow 3.0's rules, this thing wouldn't get any skill points even if it got an Int score somehow.

I am in favour of simply ignoring the skill point rider.

[Troacctid]

I hadn't really thought of the "obeying the orders of their master" bit being relevant. I mean, Skeletons didn't get asterisked just because Animate Dead gives you control over what you create. I just figured that was more flavor text because they're mindless.

Voidmind got an asterisk for the same reason, right?

[Tzardok]

Voidmind got an asterisk for the same reason, right?

Voidminds had abilities involving their masters' control. With the bone lurker it's flavour text.

[Thurbane]

I can't get enthused for a writeup on this one. I'll vote LA +1.

[meschlum]

No. 1d(3d4) assumes you have equal chance to be in any situation (I rolled X-Y-Z for my last transformation's duration), but it's not accurate. You have a higher chance to be in a longer transformation than a shorter one. So you should roll 1dX, where the law for X is P(X=d)=(d*P(3d4=d)) normalized to 1, which is an absolute nightmare to do manually.

If you want to program it and get a result, it's pretty simple: make a list with one 3, four 4s, ten 5s, twenty 6s, twenty-eight 7s, thirty-two 8s, thirty 9s, twenty 10s, eleven 11s and four 12s, choose one number from that list at random, then roll a die with that number of sides.

That, or you just roll 1d(3d4) because you don't want too much trouble and your average is almost the same (4.25 for 1d(3d4) and 4.5 for the exact method, and I'm impressed by the fact that it gives such a round average, which makes me think there's probably a simpler way to do it).

Math interrupt!

Your list is nice, but seems rather challenging to generate for the general case. So here's an alternate method based on simulating the remaining duration in a single pass, rather than a combinatorial nightmare.

When rolling 1 die with N sides, the probability of having exactly D rounds left is as follows.

Only transformations that last at least D rounds can have D rounds left.
Since a random time is selected, all remaining times for a given transformation are equally likely.

So there are (N + 1 - D) transformations (duration rolls of D or more) which can have D rounds left. This means N transformations have 1 round left (all of them), N-1 have 2 rounds left (all but the 1-round transformation), etc.

Which gives Sum((N+1-D)*D) for the total remaining duration, out of Sum(D) total time.

Going through the math, this gives (N+2)/3 rounds left on average for a single N sided die.

Examples: 1 sided die: 1 round left (transform every round, so keep your shape for 1 round). 4 sided die: 2 rounds left (4/10 time have 1 round left, 3/10 have 2 rounds left, 2/10 have 3 rounds left, 1/10 have 4 rounds left).


If more dice are added, the same logic can be used, but the combinations become messier... so it's time to get clever!

Adding an M sided die increases duration by 1...M independently of the initial duration, so the expected contribution to duration of the extra die is (M+1)/2. Since we can expect to be in the middle of any given transformation, increasing the duration of a transformation by (M+1)/2 rounds means that the expected time left in the transformation increases by (M+1)/4 rounds.

The insight here is that we're using a single die to determine the 'initial' transformation duration, then increasing it by an amount that does not depend on the initial duration, so is the same across the board.

This means that when rolling XdN, the expected number of rounds until the next transformation is (N+2)/3 + (X-1)(N+1)/4 = XN/4 + X/4 + N/12 + 5/12 = (3XN+3X+N+5)/12 = (3X+1)(N+1)/12+4/12

Example: 3d4 gives 10*5/12 + 4/12 = 54/12 = 9/2 = 4.5

1d6 gives 4*7/12 + 4/12 = 32/12 = 8/3 = 2.67


If you want to go the list route, it seems cleaner and easier to go directly for the remaining duration.

In the case of 3d4, you have an average duration of 7.5 rounds, and 64 different dice combinations (4^3), so an expected 'interval' of 7.5 * 64 = 480 rounds. In this interval, each duration combination occurs once, and we can work from there.

If you have 3 or fewer rounds left, every single die combination is possible, so there are 64 dice combinations with 1 round left (p = 64/480), 64 with 2 rounds left (p = 64 / 480), and 64 with 3 rounds left (p = 64/480).

If you have 4 or more rounds left, you need to remove the shorter combinations.

There is 1 combination with duration 3, so there are 63 with duration 4 or more, meaning 63 / 480 probability of having 4 rounds left.
There are 3 combinations with duration 4, so there are 60 with duration 5 or more, meaning 60 / 480 probability of having 5 rounds left.
...
There are 3 combinations with duration 11, so there are 4 with duration 11 or more, meaning 4 / 480 probability of having 11 rounds left.
There is 1 combination with duration 12, so there is 1 / 480 probability of having 12 rounds left.

(combination counts are 1 (3), 3 (4), 6 (5), 10 (6), 12 (7), 12 (8), 10 (9), 6 (10), 3 (11), 1(12))

This gives the same results as your approach, but uses a single step rather than two (select a duration and then time left). Plus the numeric progression feels a bit more intuitive to me.

[liquidformat]

I vote for "adjust trait to match skeletons" thing, especially since this are supposed to be like CR 2 creatures. Then again at that level DR 5/bludgeoning might reduce damage more than halving it...

That seems reasonable and yeah at low levels DR 5/bludgeoning is most likely more than half damage for piercing and slashing. Must say I preferred the ways DR worked in 3.0 I liked that DR required different bonuses on your weapon not just for it to be magic and things like that.

Anyways on to this monster. So unless your DM is handwaving the mindless away in which case you have -8 int min 3 (ouch) I think you are left with awaken undead.

+10 Str imp grab and paralysis make this thing pretty nice and 2 HD brings you up to Huge with a bonus to str and NA but a slight drop in Dex and should also give you another Slam attack (score more paralysis!). The fact that you are an amorphous body shape meaning only slotless items? seems like a huge blow so I think +0 LA is fine here.

[Lapak]

Is the picture you used for the creature from the Sedlec Ossuary outside Kutna Hora? I've been there.

But yeah, this is one where the (limited) Undead HD and body-shape issues are balanced out by a genuinely useful melee attack. I am comfortable with a +0 on this.

[Debatra]

And it looks like +0 takes it. Bonesting coming up.

[Debatra]

Bonesting

Size & Type: Medium Undead
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
HD: 2
Speed: 0
Ability Scores: Str +10, Dex +6, Con -, Int -, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net +16, no penalties
Natural Armor: 2
Natural Weapons: One Primary Swordspike (2d6 slashing, 19-20 Crit Range)
Skill List: N/A
Body Shape: Serpentine Spike
Speech (Languages): No
CR: 1
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +0* (Permanently Attached to a Wall/Ceiling/Floor)

So you can make these with Animate Dead, though it takes "two corpses" to do so. That fly you just- wait, I did this one.

Bonestings are attached to a wall, ceiling, or floor; and are destroyed if detached. Asterisk and move on. Handle the 0' movement speed how you will, but remember we've had other creatures with that and didn't asterisk it.

Like the Bone Lurker before it, Bonestings are immune to cold, gain skills as Contructs, Improved Initiative not explicitly marked as a bonus feat, and have the 3.0 skeleton proto-DR that would likely be converted to DR 5/Bludgeoning before actual gameplay. You only need one more RHD to become Large, and two more on top of that to become Huge.

In addition to high damage for a low-HD natural weapon and an increased crit range, a Bonesting's Swordspike inflicts bleeding wounds with each hit, causing targets to bleed for an additional 1 HP per round until they receive a DC15 Heal check or any healing spell. Multiple hits are cumulative.

Maybe have the party Barbarian use you as a greatsword?

[danielxcutter]

Let's see, only got throat, head, and face slots. That's not exactly great.

[Debatra]

And possibly not even face. Its head might just be a spike.

Also, it's quite large for a Medium creature, if not by actual squares occupied.

They have a length of 8 to 16 feet when fully uncoiled, and they have a thickness of about 1 foot. (By the way, the "Creature Size and Scale" table puts that as the exact height/length range for a Large creature.)

[Tzardok]

Snakes and other creatures that stay coiled most of the time get a pass.

[Beni-Kujaku]

What's with these low-HD high-stats undead? Undead are supposed to be bad, not strong! Bad design, would not rate again. So, you're an adventurer with no arms, no legs, possibly no face, permanently attached to, I suppose, some plank, or the "floor" of a cart, to have wheels. You could use an animal companion to move around, but even with that, you're not doing much with no weapon and only one (admittedly strong, but with no really useful rider like the lurker) natural weapon. LA-0

Edit: Can you see? I don't think you have eye sockets, and undead do not get blindsight natively do they?

[Troacctid]

Skeletons can see fine without eyes.

This is very similar to the last one. I vote +0* again. Comparable stats, comparable natural attack, and you can actually use some magic items—but you have to invest in a way to actually move. That's not hard to do, just annoying. Honestly, this is probably better than the last one, all things considered.

[Thurbane]

I think +0* will do for this one.

[liquidformat]

Let's see, only got throat, head, and face slots. That's not exactly great.

I think you also get a 'ring/belt' slot on the tail section. On a side note it never specifies which end is the Swordspike so you could just as likely have it as a tail whip than the head. Either way I think this is a +0* though just barely.

[Dalmosh]

Could this thing move by being attached to an object (like a square of wood), and use a full-round throw heavy object action to flop it's whole weight forward 5Ft + 1/2 pts str check exceeds 10? It looks strong enough to be able to.
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questi...-ranged-attack

It could stick the spike in the floor, and then flick itself forward in "throws", a bit like a how a slinky walks down the stairs. At least it's got a Dex score unlike The Fiendish Familiar and the Shrieker Fungus.

Or it could drag itself along with its own wheeled trolley, never tiring due to not having a Con score

[Debatra]

While the idea of just carrying around the section of wall it's attached to is amusing, I think we'll just leave in the asterisk. Seems like a +0*.

Sorry about the long delay folks, Boneworm is next.

[Debatra]

Boneworm

Note: Joke image is of a real-life thing called boneworm. Does not even vaguely resemble the thing we're discussing.

Size & Type: Gargantuan Undead (Fire)
Space/Reach: 30'/15'
HD: 18
Speed: 30'
Ability Scores: Str +18, Dex -8, Con -, Int -6, Wis +0, Cha +6 - Net +10, two penalties
Natural Armor: 15
Natural Weapons: One Primary Slam (3d6 plus instant disease)
Skill List: Climb, Listen Spot, Survival
Body Shape: Skeletal worm made of faces
Speech (Languages): "Boneworms have little interest in communicating with anyone, but they do understand the Common tongue." Unclear if they can speak.
CR: 12
WotC LA: -
Our LA: -0* (Uncapped Spawn Ability)

Utterly irrelevant SR (20) and DR (15/magic), and for some reason (presumably 3.0 weirdness) has only a single feat despite not being mindless.

Given how much it takes to actually create a new Boneworm, I'm a little on the fence about the asterisk. That said, we've given it to weirder cases.

Any creature hit by the Boneworm's slam must make a fortitude save or contract Bonefire, a highly-contagious disease with instant incubation. The disease deals 1d4 each of Charisma and Constitution damage. Corpses retain the disease for a week, and are just as contagious. Anyone who touches an infected creature or corpse must save vs the infection. If at least 18 corpses with the disease are ever within 30' of each other, they become magnetically drawn together and, after one round, merge into a new Boneworm with HD equal to the number of corpses that made it.

It has a Desiccation Aura, forcing living creatures within 30' to make a fortitude save every round or take a single point of Constitution drain as the beast absorbs moisture from their body. Each round that at least a single creature is desiccated (regardless of how many), the Boneworm heals five HP, gaining any excess as temporary HP.

Finally, the many heads of the corpses that make up a Boneworm constantly emit Dreadful Chanting of half-remembered hymns and prayers. Living creatures within 90' must make a will save or be shaken, with no listed 24-hour immunity clause. The chanting is especially unnerving to divine spellcasters, who take a -4 on the save. Regardless of the save to avoid being shaken, divine spellcasters must make a Concentration check (20+spell level) to cast spells within the area.

[danielxcutter]

18 HD on a CR 12 creature that seems pretty lackluster even for that CR? This is... weak.

[Chaos Jackal]

Eh, I think it should get the asterisk. Nothing prevents you from rounding up the farmhands or the villagers before or after wasting them.

Otherwise, well... Nothing here is too impressive for the huge number of HD. -0* for the boneworm.

[Beni-Kujaku]

That constant chanting with no immunity would make it a pretty powerful Siren. However, having to wait for low-epic for that is pretty bad. And the aura of Con drain is funnier on a boss than it is on a PC. All in all, I just don't see it be worth its 18 Undead RHD. LA-0*.

I think it could speak, since its heads can chant prayers. But it would just be drowned in the 17 other voices.


Is there a way to quickly heal drained ability scores (better than the 1/hour of Naberius)? If so, you could quickly get infinite temporary hit points with your dessication aura. I don't think things like the incarnum Life shirt (don't remember the name) would work, since it prevents the dessication instead of healing it, and the boneworm would probably not gain temporary HP. It doesn't seem like the temporary HP disappear with time either.

[H_H_F_F]

The aura is pretty decent, as is the disease. NA is fine, ability scores are fine. Being gargantuan is fun.

If this thing was an outsider ir a dragon, I may have said +0*. With 18 undead HD... it pretty much has to be LA -0*, IMO.

[Edit]

Is there a way to quickly heal drained ability scores (better than the 1/hour of Naberius)? If so, you could quickly get infinite temporary hit points with your dessication aura. I don't think things like the incarnum Life shirt (don't remember the name) would work, since it prevents the dessication instead of healing it, and the boneworm would probably not gain temporary HP. It doesn't seem like the temporary HP disappear with time either.

Is there a reason to think the temp HP would stack?[/EDIT]

[Debatra]

They explicitly do not when they're from the same source. RC72.

[Beni-Kujaku]

The aura is pretty decent, as is the disease. NA is fine, ability scores are fine. Being gargantuan is fun.

If this thing was an outsider ir a dragon, I may have said +0*. With 18 undead HD... it pretty much has to be LA -0*, IMO.

[Edit]
Is there a reason to think the temp HP would stack?[/EDIT]

Damn. That's right. Pretty sure that's unintended, but then again, having them last forever is probably unintended too. Yeah, that's out of the window. At least you can heal despite your lack of Constitution.

I don't really agree with it being +0 if it was Outsider or Dragon. Your intelligence is still awful, your dexterity means you can get taken out by a lesser shivering touch without heavy investment, and you generally have no good class feature outside of pure close-range damage potential, and even that isn't good (dessication aura somehow keyed of wisdom it seems, or maybe even with no key ability; your disease attached to a single slam despite you being Huge), and if your teammates aren't immune to fear, Dreadful Chanting will be awful almost always.

Also, I can't shake the feeling that this was supposed to represent Gravelord Nito from Dark Souls, with that Fire subtype that really doesn't make much sense but would link it to Nito and his fiery Lord Soul. Also, poisoned slam, and generally similar size and shape. No necromancy like Nito, though, so maybe not.

[Caelestion]

I'm not sure that being especially susceptible to blatantly overpowered spells is that much of a weakness, but yeah, it's an obvious LA -0*.