The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

[Debatra]

Last four of Libris Mortis before the variants.

Umbral Creature

An Umbral Displacer Beast

Acquired or Inherited: Acquired
Applied To: Any Aberration, Dragon, Giant, Magical Beast, or Monstrous Humanoid with a Charisma of at least 8.
Size & Type: Type becomes Undead (Incorporeal, Augmented), subtypes are retained except alignments and those that indicate kind (such as Goblinoid). Size in unchanged. Unlike most templates, saves and BAB are recalculated.
Space/Reach: Unchanged
Hit Dice: Drop from class levels, increase the rest to D12.
Speed: Lose all movement modes, gain Fly 40' (Perfect)
Ability Scores: Str -, Dex +4, Con -, Int -4, Wis +2, Cha +2 - Net +4, one penalty
Armor Class: Lose Natural Armor, gain deflection equal to Charisma Bonus (minimum +1)
Skills: Unchanged
CR: +2 (+3 if Huge or Larger)
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +2* (Uncapped Spawn Ability)

Shadows, but for other creature types. This includes spawn creation, though it can only turn humanoids into shadows instead of making other Umbral Creatures. Also, because of an editing goof that the errata missed, the ability to create spawn is technically limited to Umbral Displacer Beasts. Asterisk it anyway. But are we going to keep the auto-kill for reducing a creature to zero strength? It wasn't really discussed last time around.

For reference, we gave Shadows +3, but those are standalone creatures instead of a template. An Umbral Creature's Str damage is based on its size, thus explaining why a bigger one warrants a higher CR. It loses any natural weapons the base creature had, but the Str damage can put things down handily even if it doesn't kill you (and explicitly says once per round). Add +2 Turn Resistance and an Inescapable Craving for Strength for a nice little cherry on top.

[danielxcutter]

Not entirely sure if getting bigger is much of a benefit considering most such creatures are high-Str and Com bruisers and these… aren’t.

[liquidformat]

I am still scratching my head over the Umbral Creature template since Shadow has 3 rhd whereas umbral could have none since there are base race and 1 rhd examples of each creature type for which this template applies. To an extent I think this template might need different LAs depending on the number of rhd the monster has...

[Beni-Kujaku]

Incorporeality is at least +2, and I see nothing here that would be worth more. Compare to the +3 of ghost, which is better in a lot of ways (turn resistance, functional immortality, all HD are d12, you don't recalculate Saves...).

LA+2 for umbral.

[Thurbane]

Templates can always be a little tricky. I've been procrastinating, but I'll give it a shot.

Umbral Creature

• Type changes to undead, gains incorporeal and augmented subtypes.
• Drop all HD from class levels, RHD become d12 (as already pointed out, this could cause dysfunctions with creatures that only have class levels, like Half-giant, or Lupin).
• Speed become fly 40 ft (perfect): nice.
• Cha bonus as deflection to AC (standard for incorporeal).
• Lose all natural AC.
• BAB drops to poor:
• Lose all attacks, gains an incorporeal touch attack: 1d2 to 4d6 Str damage, depending on your size.
• You keep special attacks, but some will be affected by being incorporeal.
• Uncapped creation of shadows under your control whenever you drain a Humanoid to 0 Str.
• No mention of losing special qaulities, so that's good.
• Inescapable craving for inflicting Str damage.
• Turn resistance +2.
• Saves change to poor Fort and Ref, good Will.
• Str --, Dex +4, Con --, Int -4 (min 1) Wis +2, Cha +2: tow non-abilities, net +4. That hit to Int hurts.

Can speak. Will obviously have some gear issues being incorporeal.

First things first: asterisk required for uncapped, controlled spawn that pop up 1d4 rounds later.
Secondly: I find it really annoying that the template modifies your BAB and saves, but not skill points per HD. Most base creatures (with the sole exception of Dragons) would benefit from the increase, especially with that hit to Int.
As usual, incorporeality comes with benefits and drawback, as does lack of a Str score.
Progression? I dunno, you are limited to a single touch attack a round, so sneak attack build is probably not ideal. Skillmonkeying is hampered by -4 Int. Martial Adept might be OK. If you have low enough HD, Wis or Cha based caster, maybe?

I'll tentatively go LA +2*.

[Efrate]

+2* Best on something with minimal HD.

[liquidformat]

Templates can always be a little tricky. I've been procrastinating, but I'll give it a shot.

Umbral Creature

• Type changes to undead, gains incorporeal and augmented subtypes.
• Drop all HD from class levels, RHD become d12 (as already pointed out, this could cause dysfunctions with creatures that only have class levels, like Half-giant, or Lupin).
• Speed become fly 40 ft (perfect): nice.
• Cha bonus as deflection to AC (standard for incorporeal).
• Lose all natural AC.
• BAB drops to poor:
• Lose all attacks, gains an incorporeal touch attack: 1d2 to 4d6 Str damage, depending on your size.
• You keep special attacks, but some will be affected by being incorporeal.
• Uncapped creation of shadows under your control whenever you drain a Humanoid to 0 Str.
• No mention of losing special qaulities, so that's good.
• Inescapable craving for inflicting Str damage.
• Turn resistance +2.
• Saves change to poor Fort and Ref, good Will.
• Str --, Dex +4, Con --, Int -4 (min 1) Wis +2, Cha +2: tow non-abilities, net +4. That hit to Int hurts.

Can speak. Will obviously have some gear issues being incorporeal.

First things first: asterisk required for uncapped, controlled spawn that pop up 1d4 rounds later.
Secondly: I find it really annoying that the template modifies your BAB and saves, but not skill points per HD. Most base creatures (with the sole exception of Dragons) would benefit from the increase, especially with that hit to Int.
As usual, incorporeality comes with benefits and drawback, as does lack of a Str score.
Progression? I dunno, you are limited to a single touch attack a round, so sneak attack build is probably not ideal. Skillmonkeying is hampered by -4 Int. Martial Adept might be OK. If you have low enough HD, Wis or Cha based caster, maybe?

I'll tentatively go LA +2*.

Int is min 3 not 1 since this is a pc rating, also you can get a second touch attack through a feat from ghost walk, afb and can't remember the name. Probably the best path is being something handsy and wielding a weapon.
The whole you loose your class levels but only have class levels but can replace your first rhd with class levels thing is kind of confusing and I could see an argument that this qualifies as 'specific' for the general replace 1 rhd with class level rule...

The one thing that is rather bugging me here is this gives you everything that shadow gives you except maybe the rhd. At +2* la this is strictly better than shadow for 3 rhd or less. Even at +3* this is strictly better than shadow if you have less than 3rhd. looking at specter and greater shadow we can eyeball that this package drops to a +1* la for ~6rhd and +0* for 9rhd.
So here is what I propose:
+3* LA for RHD =>3
+2* LA for 3<RHD<7
+1* LA for 6<RHD<9
+0* LA for RHD=>9

[GreatWyrmGold]

Uh... how do we weigh votes again? By average it looks like it'd come out as a +1 but that doesn't really seem representative...

Oh, I guess +0* would work, since incorporeality is that strong and there are some bard PrCs that this thing can use.

Well, the averages usually only matter if there's no clear winner in the votes, and +0* has just pulled far enough away for that to not be an issue.

IIRC, Inevitability pretty much always used the average whenever there was a remotely close race because putting the LA between the two preferred candidates would be a more accurate representation of the community's opinion on the monster than whichever option had one more vote.

The leech swarm option is pretty bad on land, though quite good in aquatic campaigns. Flight speeds don't work underwater right?

No, but the reverse works.

If you're going to spellcast, Improved Grab/Constrict is really not that useful, and I would gladly trade 8 Str, 10ft reach and 1 natural armor for 6 Int and 8 Cha.

Well that's a big "if". Yes, spellcasting is good, but basically every class has a use for extra standard actions. Rating choker abilities on the assumption that they'll be casters is like rating halfling abilities based on the assumption that they'll be casters. "Why throw spears when you could just cast a spell?"

But are we going to keep the auto-kill for reducing a creature to zero strength? It wasn't really discussed last time around.

...why wouldn't we? That's just how the creature works. Besides, the perks and drawbacks of killing a creature at 0 HP instead of leaving it helpless and sprawled on the ground are pretty minor and probably balanced; they're out of the fight either way.



By the way, the Monstrous Mash competition has only four days remaining. If you wanted to join that, now's the time.

[Caelestion]

So here is what I propose:
+3* LA for RHD =>3
+2* LA for 3<RHD<7
+1* LA for 6<RHD<9
+0* LA for RHD=>9

We're several years into this and now you want to bring out scaling LAs?

[liquidformat]

We're several years into this and now you want to bring out scaling LAs?

I mean I am just looking at it compared to shadow, specter and greater shadow. The point is to make these playable and 9rhd +2 la isn't playable for this thing....

[Beni-Kujaku]

The one thing that is rather bugging me here is this gives you everything that shadow gives you except maybe the rhd. At +2* la this is strictly better than shadow for 3 rhd or less. Even at +3* this is strictly better than shadow if you have less than 3rhd. looking at specter and greater shadow we can eyeball that this package drops to a +1* la for ~6rhd and +0* for 9rhd.
So here is what I propose:
+3* LA for RHD =>3
+2* LA for 3<RHD<7
+1* LA for 6<RHD<9
+0* LA for RHD=>9

That's kind of what LA-buyoff is for, except you count class levels instead of RHD. In this case, just put it at the highest, so in your case, +3* LA.

We're several years into this and now you want to bring out scaling LAs?

They don't "bring it out", we already have them for the skeleton template. But yeah, that's confusing, complicated, and impossible to get a real compromise on.

Well that's a big "if". Yes, spellcasting is good, but basically every class has a use for extra standard actions. Rating choker abilities on the assumption that they'll be casters is like rating halfling abilities based on the assumption that they'll be casters. "Why throw spears when you could just cast a spell?"

I absolutely agree, but my comment was in response to saying that the choker has "quite a bit more going for it". The point was "in some cases, like for a spellcaster, the tomb mote is better, and in others, like Str-based grappler, the choker is", to point out that they are quite equivalent in terms of value, and should get the same LA.

[danielxcutter]

Also FWIW casters get more mileage out of more standards than martials.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I mean I am just looking at it compared to shadow, specter and greater shadow. The point is to make these playable and 9rhd +2 la isn't playable for this thing....

To be fair, the shadow and the greater shadow were not judged as they should be. It was in the pre-asterisk era, even though not in the pre-'LA -0' era (which was introduced surprisingly early). They were judged as +4 LA, with infinite spawn, and even then there were people who wanted for it to be reduced to LA+3. When asterisks were introduced, shadows were reduced to LA +3*, with no discussion. I really believe, should they have been rated with the asterisk in mind, they would have gotten LA+2, or even a strong LA+1.

[Thurbane]

Int is min 3 not 1 since this is a pc rating, also you can get a second touch attack through a feat from ghost walk, afb and can't remember the name. Probably the best path is being something handsy and wielding a weapon.
The whole you loose your class levels but only have class levels but can replace your first rhd with class levels thing is kind of confusing and I could see an argument that this qualifies as 'specific' for the general replace 1 rhd with class level rule...

We've rated creatures with 1 or 2 int before (or even --), but point taken.

I've tried looking for the feat, with no luck. If there is such a feat, would be great to know about in this thread.

Would Snap Kick give you a second Str damaging attack?

I think trying to wield a weapon is going to be counterproductive. Your Str damaging touch is one of the main features of the template (there are better and cheaper ways of being incorporeal in what we've rated). Unfortunately, Necrotic Focus only works with ability drain, not ability damage.

In regards to the possible HD dysfunction, I was looking at Necrocarnum Zombies recently, and I think they handle the wording much better:

Hit Dice: All Hit Dice from class levels are dropped, and each of the creature’s remaining Hit Dice increases to a d12. If the creature has no Hit Dice remaining, it gains 1d12.

Even the wording for Skeleton is better than Umbral Creature:

Hit Dice: Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels (to a minimum of 1) and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s.

[liquidformat]

I've tried looking for the feat, with no luck. If there is such a feat, would be great to know about in this thread.

Corrupting Touch feat, it gives you an extra touch attack that deals 1d4 and there are other feats you can add to it.

[danielxcutter]

I’m not sure if such abilities should have the same capacities as your primary touch attack… unless of course it’s explicitly stated, then by all means.

[Thurbane]

Hmm, not sure I'm seeing a reading that allows you to make an extra touch attack per round. Also, if you check Ghostwalk, only Ghosts (as in the Ghostwalk version, not the MM template) can select the feat.

[Debatra]

+2* - Beni-Kujaku, Thurbane, Efrate
Scales inversely to RHD* - liquidformat

IIRC, Inevitability pretty much always used the average whenever there was a remotely close race because putting the LA between the two preferred candidates would be a more accurate representation of the community's opinion on the monster than whichever option had one more vote.

Well it wasn't exactly close there, since one rating got six votes and only one other got more than one.

[GreatWyrmGold]

For those who're interested, the Monster Mash competition is in its judging phase. If you'd like to see what the community did with the lackluster theme, look here and consider scoring the entries.

[Debatra]

Okay then, not much to say about that one I guess. +2* it is, and the Visage coming up.

[danielxcutter]

Oh good, undead outsiders. I'm sure that hasn't been done before.

[Debatra]

Visage

Size & Type: Medium Undead (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
HD: 12
Speed: Fly 40' (Perfect)
Ability Scores: Str +2, Dex +4, Con -, Int +4, Wis +2, Cha +6 - Net +18, no penalties
Natural Armor: 8
Natural Weapons: Two Primary Claws (1d4 - The example creature has Improved Natural Attack)
Skill List: Bluff, Disguise, Diplomacy, Escape Artist (+10 racial), Hide, Intimidate, Move Silently (+10 racial), Search, Sense Motive
Body Shape: "mostly shapeless body", "Its only definite features include a pale, white, masklike face bearing a perpetual grin and a pair of particularly long and nasty claws"
Speech (Languages): Yes (Common, Abyssal)
CR: 9
WotC LA: -
Our LA: -0* Uncapped Spawn Ability

A mind-controlling, identity-stealing undead outsider.

First thing's first as usual when it comes up: Uncapped Spawn Ability. Any Evil Outsider the Visage kills becomes a Visage under the control of its killer after 24 hours. Asterisk and move on.

DR/magic and Spell Resistance 15 are barely relevant at its CR, let alone its HD. It also has +4 turn resistance and immunity to positive energy. Save DCs are Charisma-based unless noted.

It can create Major Images that only a single target can see, as well as cast Dominate Person once per day (CL 12). It has 4d6 Sneak Attack.

It's main gimmick is Assume Identity, which lets it do as the name implies as a free action to anything it's killed in the last round. This lasts 24 hours or until dismissed, during which the deceased can not be brought back to life. Even after the soul is free, it requires either a Wish or Miracle followed by True Resurrection. There are better ways to stop someone from being brought back to life, but this is really just a side effect.

While masquerading as someone, the Visage gains a +20 untyped bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks made to pass as them. They also gain an enhancement bonus on all skill checks equal to the number of ranks their victim had in that skill. Oddly, this does not allow the Visage to use skills untrained.

[Efrate]

-0*. Questionable body slots.
Infiltration based ability set when a spell or two does pretty much all of this better. Sneak attack 5 levels of rogue behind. Natural flight, weird typing; not sure if boon or curse. Posisitive energy immunity is okay but not great.

With the exception of HP a 12th level single classed rogue does all this pretty much better and rogues are tier 4. A swordsage is better in combat and probably close out of combat. A bard with DFI more than makes up the sneak damage and does everything this does better.

It does not advance anywhere well. ToB gets 7ths but half bab means you are struggling to hit. Bard or beguiler is too far behind for spells to matter, incarnum has all the undead issues and is super far behind on binds unless you spend all your feats, and the lack of BaB means again your to hit suffers.

The stolen identity only lasting 1 day means barring extreme circumstances it is not enough to affect lasting change in an intrigue or social focused setting. At least no more so than anyone else. It might make an okay assassin, but just assassin does it better. Dominate being once a day also means as a puppet master its pretty lacking.

[Caelestion]

An undead immune to positive energy is pretty special, I've got to say.

[Prime32]

-0*. Basically a 9th-level rogue with one less sneak attack die, and a bunch of okay but situational abilities added on. Works better as a plot device than a permanent member of the party.

Assume Identity can provide large bonuses to skill checks, which stack with those from most other sources. So you could become ultra-stealthy by killing another rogue, or kill a guy with high Concentration ranks to boost the power of Diamond Mind maneuvers. But what you're getting is essentially random (even moreso in a party, where you can't guarantee you'll land the killing blow), and you can't even cheese it by sacrificing your allies and reviving them.

I feel like "True Resurrection doesn't work unless you cast Wish/Miracle first" would be more of an obstacle in campaigns where the only divine casters have limited spells known. Almost every character who can cast True Res can also cast Miracle, I mean.

[danielxcutter]

-0*. Basically a 9th-level rogue with one less sneak attack die, and a bunch of okay but situational abilities added on. Works better as a plot device than a permanent member of the party.

Assume Identity can provide large bonuses to skill checks, which stack with those from most other sources. So you could become ultra-stealthy by killing another rogue, or kill a guy with high Concentration ranks to boost the power of Diamond Mind maneuvers. But what you're getting is essentially random (even moreso in a party, where you can't guarantee you'll land the killing blow), and you can't even cheese it by sacrificing your allies and reviving them.

I feel like "True Resurrection doesn't work unless you cast Wish/Miracle first" would be more of an obstacle in campaigns where the only divine casters have limited spells known. Almost every character who can cast True Res can also cast Miracle, I mean.

If you've got only one prepared, then that'll delay the revival, which might give the Visage time to do something before their disguise runs out.

Otherwise, yeah.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Agree with -0*. The Visage is an extremely cool concept‚ and makes for a good plot device (ran a campaign with a Visage infestation. The clerics and wizards thought they went against Outsiders and called their own to fight them‚ only to reinforce their ranks) ‚ but they really won't be of much help in a party. Do you count as having killed a summoned creature? If so‚ you may get really good and versatile skill bonuses for the price of one spell. Still -0‚ of course‚ but that could be interesting

[Remuko]

easy, if disappointing, -0*. It only its power was as good as its looks.

[H_H_F_F]

I like the visage. It's unique and has style. However, it's really situational, and should be outmatched by ECL 14 companions in any party.

LA -0* from me.

[Thurbane]

Not sure this is worth a detailed breakdown, but here goes:

Visage

• Medium Undead (chaotic, evil, extraplanar).
• 12 RHD (d12 hp, poor BAB, one good save, 4 skill points/"level").
• Fly 40 ft (perfect).
• +8 natural AC.
• 2 claws 1d4. It's natural weapons and any weapons it wields are treated as Chaotic for overcoming DR.
• Assume identity: is it just me, or is this poorly defined in some ways? How do you assume the form of a creature, but basically get none of its abilities? Do you get natural attacks? Movement modes? Size change? As a side effect, it makes that creature harder to resurrect. Sure, why not? Makes about as much sense as the rest of the ability. It just seems like an overly complex Disguise Self with some skill boosts thrown in.
• Create spawn: uncapped ability to creature more Visages under your control. Seems weird that it only works on evil outsiders, but I guess since they are from the Abyss, makes some sort of sense.
• Dominate Person as an SLA, 1/day. CL 12. OK, so we just got done rationalising that evil outsiders are its natural prey. So why does it have Dominate Person?? It feels like it was literally only tacked on to allow for use against PCs.
• Lucidity control: supernatural Major Image that only works on one creature. At least you don't have to worry about SR. Also, it's at will.
• DR 10/magic: meh. I feel like it should have been DR 10/Lawful.
• Darkvision 60 ft.
• Positive immunity: interesting for an undead.
• Sneak attack 4d6: a little underwhelming at 12HD, but better than nothing.
• SR 15: meh.
• Undead traits.
• +4 turn resistance.
• Str +2, Dex +8, Con --, Int +4, Wis +2, Cha +6: net +22, one non-ability.
• OK-ish racial skill list, focused on stealth and social skills. +10 on Escape Artist and Move Silently.

I'm not sure how to classify its body type. It's going to vary by DM, I would imagine, and how they read the descriptive text. They have a weight of approximately 75 pounds, so they do have some mass. And the text indicates that it is possible for them to wield weapons. I suppose if you want to play one, work with your DM to work out what body slots it would have. They speak, at least.

I suppose skill-monkey would be the most logical path for them to follow. You're 5 levels behind a Rogue on sneak attack, and your racial skill list, while better than some monsters, is pretty tightly focused. What are the upsides of this creature? Perfect flight, stat boosts, good stealth abilities, and an at will illusion to mess with individual creatures. The downside is HD bloat, and virtually useless DR and SR. Seriously, SR 15? It hunts Demons for crying out loud!

I can't give this anything other than LA -0*. You'd need to shave off maybe 4 or 5 HD for this to approach +0, IMHO. It's got some moderately interesting stuff going on, but not much you could build an adventuring career around.