The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

[unseenmage]

LA+0 for the cancer.

MM6 or DMGII for the book.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm... no vote for the crawling tumor, but I vote for DMGII templates.

[Efrate]

Kind of want to knock out dmg2 then do mm6.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I am still partial to the Unique abilities in DMGII there are only 20 of them they are all templates and right now some of them have some pretty stupid LA like +12 for Unearthly beauty. A lot of the Unique abilities would be pretty cool and fun if they didn't have so much LA.

Ah yes, those silly things.

+12 LA is pretty obviously stupid for one dominate person a week and a +4 to Charisma-based checks, considering that nine levels of wizard or ten of bard/sorcerer could get you a couple dominates a day and so much more. For that matter, +1 LA for 1/week sending and 1/month shield other for a specific other person is rather steep, aside from being a really weaksauce soulmate bond.
I think it would be fun to go through those pseudotemplates and give them a proper LA-ing.

I know MMII was mentioned multiple times in the past and the consensus/concern seemed to be that it was going to be a hard book to rate because it was 3.0 material and also has a decent number of problematic creatures in it. Granted with the number of books we have under our belt now it wouldn't be a horrible time to dive into it.

Sadly, about 90% of that experience is no longer with us. Debatra does involve the thread-community pretty heavily in his ratings, and I think he's been in it a while, but I wouldn't blame him for not wanting to tackle that until he's done a few books of more conventional beasties.

[danielxcutter]

Ah yes, those silly things.

+12 LA is pretty obviously stupid for one dominate person a week and a +4 to Charisma-based checks, considering that nine levels of wizard or ten of bard/sorcerer could get you a couple dominates a day and so much more. For that matter, +1 LA for 1/week sending and 1/month shield other for a specific other person is rather steep, aside from being a really weaksauce soulmate bond.
I think it would be fun to go through those pseudotemplates and give them a proper LA-ing.

So, I’m guessing the main reason for that was the same reason monster PCs got so shafted by ECL(besides drastically underestimating casting)? Softbans?

Sadly, about 90% of that experience is no longer with us. Debatra does involve the thread-community pretty heavily in his ratings, and I think he's been in it a while, but I wouldn't blame him for not wanting to tackle that until he's done a few books of more conventional beasties.

Yeah some more standard monsters seems good.

[Debatra]

Both +0 and DMGII are running away with it. I won't officially call the next book until this one is about done, but it's the only thing with more than one vote so far.

MMII - Beni-Kujaku
MMIV - Troacctid
DMGII "Unique Abilities" - liquidformat, Thurbane, InvisibleBison, danielxcutter, Efrate
"MM6 or DMGII" - unseenmage

Slaughter Wight coming up.

[Debatra]

Slaughter Wight

Size & Type: Medium Undead
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
HD: 18
Speed: 30'
Ability Scores: Str +14, Dex +10, Con -, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +6 - Net +30, no penalties
Natural Armor: 4
Natural Weapons: One Primary Slam (1d8, 17-20 threat range [with Improved Critical], plus energy drain)
Skill List: Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Swim
Body Shape: Humanoid
Speech (Languages): Yes (Common)
CR: 8
WotC LA: -
Our LA: -0* (Uncapped Spawn Ability)

First thing's first. Good ol' Wight-ocalypse. Any humanoid killed by a Slaughter Wight becomes a Wight under its control after 1d4 rounds. Similar to the Bleakborn, you might get a Slaughter Wight instead if the DM is being really nice. Asterisk as per usual.

Its slam gives a single negative level, which gives it five Temporary HP that last an hour (ten on a crit) and feeds its Inescapable Craving for life force. It has Augmented Critical boosting its threat range (which apparently stacks with Improved Critical).

It's just a big beefy Wight, with a ton more RHD and precious little to show for it. See you guys tomorrow.

[Chaos Jackal]

You know, I actually wonder if 18 is a typo and they meant to write 8. Because this is just sad.

Easy -0* for the Slaughter Wight.

[Remuko]

easy -0* for the slaughter wight

[liquidformat]

-0 LA seems reasonable here

[Mystic Muse]

-0* LA no contest.

[Thurbane]

I was going to do a detailed breakdown, but 18 RHD? Yeah, lets just call it -0* and move on.

[Efrate]

18 HD. CR 8. A 10 HD to CR gap means there is precious little to show. Easy -0

[Troacctid]

See, this is what -0 is for! 18 HD is just embarrassing for this, it's basically just an advanced wight.

[Lilapop]

You know, I actually wonder if 18 is a typo and they meant to write 8. Because this is just sad.

Nah. This is a bruiser facing off against level 8 players, so its gotta have more than 4 BAB and 67 hp. A CR 7 dire bear for instance has 9 and 105. Of course this breaks any mechanic based on HD, like turning, but its not like WotC have a stellar record of thinking things through.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I'll mention Savage Species, more to keep it in the collective consciousness than because I expect us to go through it any time soon. (I do look forward to doing so eventually, though we may genuinely just have to skip Symbiotic Creature and possibly Tauric Creature. Or just give them an asterisk with no numeric value attached).

Speaking of asterisks, -0* for the slaughter wight. I think 5E may have had the right idea with letting undead keep their constitution scores; it means you don't have to give them HD bloat to keep them relevant, which means you don't have to tank their BAB, and also that Turn Undead might see some more use as a class feature rather than a resource or prerequisite.

[Beni-Kujaku]

See, this is what -0 is for! 18 HD is just embarrassing for this, it's basically just an advanced wight.

I don't know‚ man‚ I think -0 should be much harsher than that. It has +14 Str‚ that is a lot! A level 18 monk with 16 Str will have a +16 to hit‚ that's the same as the wight without even PC stats! And the wight not only deals more damage since it can wield weapons but has energy drain to boast! Plus‚ it has d12 hd all along‚ so more HP than if it had less HD and monk levels. I'm pretty sure this can remain relevant and even outperform a straight commoner in combat! LA+0 for me! (Sorry I can't put blue text on my phone)

About the abilities from the DMGII‚ I think we might need some sort of LA 1- ‚ since we can't reasonably assign LA+0 to pure advantages‚ but they very much do not make for even LA+1.

[liquidformat]

I'll mention Savage Species, more to keep it in the collective consciousness than because I expect us to go through it any time soon. (I do look forward to doing so eventually, though we may genuinely just have to skip Symbiotic Creature and possibly Tauric Creature. Or just give them an asterisk with no numeric value attached).

Savage Species only has something like 10-20 creatures/templates to evaluate so it would be pretty quick, but yeah between Symbiotic, Tauric, and the horribly edited Anthropomorphic animals it might be a bit of a head ache. The issue with Anthropomorphic animals is mostly that the monster entries aren't always consistent with the rules put forth for the template.

About the abilities from the DMGII‚ I think we might need some sort of LA 1- ‚ since we can't reasonably assign LA+0 to pure advantages‚ but they very much do not make for even LA+1.

There are some that could reasonably get a +1 or maybe +2 like getting extra set of arms but others seem like maybe a straight exp cost similar to necropolitan could be reasonable, like having an extra set of legs... Others like the ability to dominate someone once a week are probably worth +1 LA until you get around level 7 ish, so amusingly a lot of them are great for LA buyoff if they had reasonable LA.

Across the whole I think it could be a really fun little group to evaluate.

[danielxcutter]

I'd say the "templates" in the DMG are simple and few enough to get over with quickly and move on to the next, so we could do something more complicated or long afterwards.

Besides, after this book we really do need a break.

[Beni-Kujaku]

There are some that could reasonably get a +1 or maybe +2 like getting extra set of arms but others seem like maybe a straight exp cost similar to necropolitan could be reasonable, like having an extra set of legs... Others like the ability to dominate someone once a week are probably worth +1 LA until you get around level 7 ish, so amusingly a lot of them are great for LA buyoff if they had reasonable LA.

Across the whole I think it could be a really fun little group to evaluate.

You think the extra set of arms is among the top ones? Oh boy, you haven't seen wild shape 1/day Past Life, or the Vestigial Twins. These are, I think, easily +3 or more. But yeah, some of them are really underpowered (who puts an extra standard action per round at the same level as attacking your allies seemingly without control anyway?)

[danielxcutter]

You think the extra set of arms is among the top ones? Oh boy, you haven't seen wild shape 1/day Past Life, or the Vestigial Twins. These are, I think, easily +3 or more. But yeah, some of them are really underpowered (who puts an extra standard action per round at the same level as attacking your allies seemingly without control anyway?)

I have a feeling that most of those were intentionally crippled with LA just to keep them away from players.

[liquidformat]

You think the extra set of arms is among the top ones? Oh boy, you haven't seen wild shape 1/day Past Life, or the Vestigial Twins. These are, I think, easily +3 or more. But yeah, some of them are really underpowered (who puts an extra standard action per round at the same level as attacking your allies seemingly without control anyway?)

No the extra set of arms was just the very first one to come to mind and seems reasonable for +1... Yeah there are some crazy powerful ones in there and then some pretty worthless ones too.

Going back to Slaughter Wight for a moment, at 18 RHD I don't think this requires an asterisk for uncapped spawn. Sure that is an issue at lower levels but once level 9 spells are on the table it isn't an issue and I don't think the asterisk is needed.

[danielxcutter]

I'm pretty sure there are magic items you can get that can start Wightpocalypses at this level, and not just the ones that bestow negative levels by holding them.

[Prime32]

About the abilities from the DMGII‚ I think we might need some sort of LA 1- ‚ since we can't reasonably assign LA+0 to pure advantages‚ but they very much do not make for even LA+1.

Some of them would work as feats. Especially if you clarify that "caster level = character level" SLAs don't function if your caster level is below the minimum for spells of that level.

[Troacctid]

I have a feeling that most of those were intentionally crippled with LA just to keep them away from players.

Well yeah. The book kind of outright admits as much.

[danielxcutter]

Well yeah. The book kind of outright admits as much.

...Man it’s been a while since I binged the sourcebooks.

[liquidformat]

...Man it’s been a while since I binged the sourcebooks.

It's fun to do it every once in a while you sometimes find fun little goofy stuff, like the alternate summoning rules in the DMG, turns your conjurer into a pokemon master.

[GreatWyrmGold]

See, this is what -0 is for! 18 HD is just embarrassing for this, it's basically just an advanced wight.

math brain activating

A standard wight has 4 HD; a slaughter wight has 18. Standard wights can only advance to 8 HD, but we will ignore this limitation for the purpose of our thought experiment.

The differences between basic and slaughter wights (aside from higher HD and the direct effects thereof—e.g. BaB, saves, feats) are: greater slam damage, Augmented Critical (increased threat range even before Improved Critical), no racial bonus on Move Silently checks, +12 Strength, +8 Dex, -2 Wis, +2 Cha. The advanced 14 hit dice a wight would receive only give it three additional ability points. Notably, natural armor is identical.

The slaughter wight doesn't offer much, but its slam is significantly better (equivalent to a blunt longsword instead of a lethal sap), and its ability scores are way higher. Though it's a bit worse at sneaking.

The issue with Anthropomorphic animals is mostly that the monster entries aren't always consistent with the rules put forth for the template.

Also that there's like a hundred of them. Good golly.

Some of them would work as feats. Especially if you clarify that "caster level = character level" SLAs don't function if your caster level is below the minimum for spells of that level.

Or just add a minimum character level to the feat prerequisites.

[Debatra]

Had some technical difficulties on my end. Slaughter Wight is a clear -0. Slaymate is coming up.

[Debatra]

Slaymate

Size & Type: Small Undead
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
HD: 4
Speed: 20'
Ability Scores: Str +2, Dex +2, Con -, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +4 - Net +10, no penalties
Natural Armor: 4
Natural Weapons: One Primary Bite (1d3 plus disease)
Skill List: Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot
Body Shape: Humanoid
Speech (Languages): Yes (Common)
CR: 2
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +0

Every Necromancer wants a Slaymate, but would any Necromancer want to be a Slaymate?

No. No they probably wouldn't. Four RHD and nothing casting-related to show for it aside from the Pale Aura you want it around for. But maybe a non-caster? Let's see.

First the Pale Aura. In a 10' radius centered on the Slaymate, any Necromancy spell prepared or cast with metamagic uses a spell slot one level lower than normal. Note that this does not have the usual caveat that these abilities normally have that limits the reduction to the spell's original level. No mention of whether that's in total or per metamagic feat.

Other than that... well, they have a supernatural disease that takes a day to incubate. 1d6 each of Con and Str damage on their bite, Charisma-based save.

Yes, that's it. Instead of being one, go adopt a child and we'll all just pretend to not know how Slaymates are created.