The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

[Beni-Kujaku]

Why should it hang on to a tree branch if it has perfect flying?
Why has it a bite attack if it has "no face"?
Why has it Listen +7 if it is deaf?
Why does it advance to 3-4 RHD if it already has 4 RHD?
Why has it only one feat? Even in 3rd edition, 4 RHD creature had two, didn't they?
Why has it +10 to-hit? Even if the second feat if Weapon Finesse, it should be +8.
Why does the tentacle have +7 to hit? With Multiattack, it should be -2 compared to the bite.
Why does it have a 10x10 space if it is Medium?
Why does it not have Improved Grab if it is its preferred method of attacking in the text?
Why is it a CR 2 exactly? It can OS any level 2 character and has damage reduction!
Why the hell does the loper not realize it has transformed into a freakish tentacle monster after a tranfer?

This monster is one of the most badly edited I've ever seen. It feels like the one who wrote the lore and the one who wrote the statsheet didn't talk to each other about anything, that the latter had dissociative personality disorder, and that none of them knew what they wanted to do with this monster. This is kind of sad.

Anyway, LA +1* seems acceptable, even if you lose most of your slots without a head or rings.


If you want a laugh, you can look up the gutpuppet, the other monster from the same author. It's the same mess, with the inability to put normal space, to-hit bonus in shambles, stupid descriptions ("it moves much faster than expected"-> 5ft movement speed), and completely broken abilities which make the CR uterly useless (poison on a ranged attack with DC 17 or 1d8 strength drain on primary and secondary, plus a chance to just fall unconscious, all on a CR 3 creature? Yeah sure.). I kind of understand why he only wrote two monsters, he must have gotten kicked out pretty fast.

[Debatra]

Despite the mess, it still has enough to warrant +1*. Black Recluse coming up.

[Debatra]

Black Recluse

Page 37

Size & Type: Large Giant
Space/Reach: 10'/10'
HD: 7
Speed: 40'
Ability Scores: Str +12, Dex +10, Con +10, Int +8, Wis +4, Cha +0 - Net 44, no penalties
Natural Armor: 3
Natural Weapons: Two Primary Spectral Claws (1d6 plus 1d4 energy), One secondary Horn (1d6)
Skill List: Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot
Body Shape: Humanoid
Speech (Languages): Yes (Giant, Dwarven, Elven, Terran, Undercommon)
CR: 6
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +1

So this guy even has a listed Favored Class: Ranger. Its most common FE is Elves, followed by Aberrations and Dwarves. (Well; specifically Drow, Mind Flayers, and Duergar; but that's not how Favored Enemy works.) Less relevant to rating them and more humorous, their flat-footed AC is typo'd as 1.

It's been a while since we had something quite like this. Intelligent, humanoid-shaped, and capable of speech (in several languages, no less). It has piddly Spell Resistance of 12, though that will still stop an occasional spell at this level. In addition to the low-light vision possessed by all Giants, the Black Recluse has 60' Darkvision that can penetrate magical darkness. It's immune to Fairie Fire, Poison, and Illusions, gets a +2 on saves vs Enchantments and Mind-Affecting, as well as having both Uncanny Dodge and Evasion. For a nice little cherry on top, throw in Fast Healing 2 and Track as a bonus feat (too bad it doesn't have Survival as a class skill). Has a bit of a downside in Light Blindness, but various types of sunglasses exist in 3.5e. (They have eight eyes though.)

Hell of a chassis, but what can it do? A decent bit, actually. It can Rend for an additional 2d6 if it hits with both claw attacks. Speaking of its Spectral Claws, that extra "1d4 energy" can be Acid, Cold, Electricity, or Fire; and the Recluse can choose a new energy type each round. Its claws glow green, blue, yellow, or red respectively to reflect its current choice of energy type. They can also spit poison in a 30' line (though also requiring a ranged touch attack for each creature to be affected instead of a reflex save). 1d4 Str/Paralysis (which by default lasts 2d6 minutes).

Finally, it has CL7 Invisibility as a 3/day SLA.

[danielxcutter]

Aside from the less-than-ideal BAB, this is actually legit. Won’t be getting 9th-level maneuvers if it gets LA, sadly, but you actually aren’t losing a lot of BAB and the skill list is actually much better than most giants.

[liquidformat]

It also seems to gets exotic weapon prof (Hand crossbow)? Anyways this is a very solid chassis too bad it has giant rhd as it would be even better with monstrous humanoid. Anyways great ability scores and some decent racial abilities I am still on the fence about the LA so will holdout for the moment to see what other people say.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Honestly, that's an extremely well-rounded chassis, with most everything you could ask of a character at this level, which could be completed with almost anything. And with +8 int on a martial chassis, you're already in a good way for a lot of prestige classes. Going with my gut, I'd say a big LA+1, and I could be swayed for +2.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah... Warblade would be kinda crazy, but with the decent Wisdom and the great Dexterity, Swordsage would work too. And since it can see through magical darkness, dropping such a spell so your allies can see but your enemies can't (unless they're baatezu) would be so cheesy.

Ranger probably isn't the best pick for this, ironically, but you could certainly do worse. This thing is both capable of stealth and facesmashing, that's not something you see every day.

[Thurbane]

Black Recluse

Ugh, I hate the later 3.5 stat blocks.

• Large Giant (with reach).
• 7 RHD (d8 hp, medium BAB, one good save, 2 skill points/"level").
• 40 ft speed.
• +3 natural AC.
• 2 spectral claws 1d6+1d4 energy (acid, cold, fire or electricity), 1 horn 1d6. Not the most amazing natural attacks, but you also get rend, and variable energy damage is kind of neat.
• Poison spittle: 30 ft line (so affects multiple creatures); 1d4 Str/paralysis. Nice area attack; no cooldown or daily uses noted.
• Rend: presumably works as normal - if both claws hit, rend for 2d6 + 1.5 x Str bonus damage.
• Darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision, see through magical darkness: very decent visual senses.
• Light blindness: assuming this is same as for Drow - I believe there are a cheap pair of nonmagical "sunglasses" that negate this.
• Evasion: nice.
• Uncanny dodge: also nice.
• Fast Healing 2: again, nice.
• Immune to faerie fire (!?), illusions, poison: immunity to illusions and poison is nothing to be sneezed at.
• SR 12: kind of irrelevant at your ECL, unless you can boost it with items or class features. A kind DM might house rule SR = HD +5.
• +2 on saves vs. enchantment and mid-affecting.
• SLA: invisibility, 3/day (CL 7); nice.
• Str +12, Dex +10, Con +10, Int +8, Wis +4: net +44, no penalties!
• Small but mostly useful racial skill list.
• Track as a bonus feat (but no Survival as a racial skill?); proficient with Hand Crossbow (exotic weapon).
• Favored class: Ranger. No LA listed by author.

Large humanoid (12 ft tall) in form (can explicitly wield weapons); can speak (seems to have Giant as auto language, and Dwarven, Elven, Terran and Undercommon as bonus languages). Should be no issues with gear (aside from large-size pricing), or class progression.

Gets a lot of nice stuff, even for 7 lost levels. Very juicy ability mods, relevant immunities, evasion + uncanny dodge (which should stack with an other source to be improved-), good senses (and it's only vulnerability is pretty easily offset with inexpensive mundane gear), nice out of combat auto healing, an area effect defuff (the paralysis doesn't kick in for a minute, but things like Venomfire would be interesting), natural attacks and rend. Aside from losing 2 BAB from HD, it's pretty much all gravy.

I think this would slot in very nice for a Warblade or similar (if EWP Hand Crossbow is a bonus feat, you could use your ability to meditate and have this become a different EWP each day). With a high Dex and Hide/MS as racial skills (+ Invisilibty 3/day), you could also play a stealth/scout type, despite your large size. The ability to be immune to illusions and magical darkness is great for a scout type.

I'm going to agree with strong LA +1, but I could also be argued to +2. I could easily see myself playing one of these in a game starting at mid-levels.

[Troacctid]

You know what? I'll go for +2. This is a pretty beefy monster.

[Thurbane]

How does Primordial look on this?

Str +8, Dex +10, Con +8, Int +12, Wis +4, Cha +4

Invisibility, Invisibility Purge, or Levitate at-will (CL = HD)
+1 CL to all spell-like abilities
Any one Knowledge skill as a class skill
+2 racial bonus to Spellcraft and Use Magic Device
Adds Warlock to favored classes

...could make for a decent Factotum? If it didn't have so many RHD, would be a great caster, too.

[Debatra]

Ugh, I hate the later 3.5 stat blocks.

So do I... This thing was such a pain to sort out.

[Thurbane]

So do I... This thing was such a pain to sort out.

Fun fact: when I'm DMing, and know ahead of time I'll be using a monster with that stat-block, I try to convert them to the original stat-block in my notes ahead of time.

[Tzardok]

Looks like design completely missed the mark with that decision.

[Caelestion]

Those are amazing statistic. It's almost worth playing for the HD and ability modifiers alone, so everything else is just gravy. LA +2, I think.

[Temotei]

I think I'll go LA +2. Giant RHD aren't great, but the monster has really great stuff going for it and I think LA +1 is slightly too low. I'd play it at ECL 9 fairly happily.

[Remuko]

Its nice to see something thats not an easy -0. Its CR is below its HD, which usually means a thing is weak, but this thing is surprisingly not! I'm actually impressed that something with CR < HD actually has decent stuff backing it.

I don't agree with others though. I don't think this is worth more than +1

[danielxcutter]

Personally I'm actually wondering if this thing is under-CRed myself! It's big, but it's got stealth abilities so it has a pretty good chance of actually getting an ambush on the PCs. Even if a PC has a little energy resistance to one type it won't be long until it gets around that. I'm not sure if illusion immunity means it can't cast its own Invisibility on itself, but that's probably what's intended at least. And claw/claw/secondary natural attack is a very respectable attack routine.

[Emberlily]

Does a +1 vs +2 for LA make significant difference in how well these can work as stealth? Large sized bruiser creature that's good at stealth honestly sounds like a really enjoyable niche (the problem with stealth dividing the party is much less of a problem when the bruiser is stealthy!), so I would want to ensure it's still able to do that well.

Otherwise, it seems to have a lot of good options but I'm not sure how well some of them synergise. The natural attack combo is very nice when you can full attack but is almost entirely lost if you go two-handed weapon, and the breath weapon is a very nice bonus to have but I'm not sure if it's good enough to use outside of situations where you can't find someone to melee.

[danielxcutter]

Well, having a ranged option as a bruiser is never bad.

Huh, I wonder how an unarmed strike build would work out? Amulet of Fists gets pretty damn efficient with that many natural attacks. That'd get hilarious pretty quickly.

[unseenmage]

Does a +1 vs +2 for LA make significant difference in how well these can work as stealth? Large sized bruiser creature that's good at stealth honestly sounds like a really enjoyable niche (the problem with stealth dividing the party is much less of a problem when the bruiser is stealthy!), so I would want to ensure it's still able to do that well.

Otherwise, it seems to have a lot of good options but I'm not sure how well some of them synergise. The natural attack combo is very nice when you can full attack but is almost entirely lost if you go two-handed weapon, and the breath weapon is a very nice bonus to have but I'm not sure if it's good enough to use outside of situations where you can't find someone to melee.

This is why I'll vote +1.

[Debatra]

The idea that it can't cast their SLA on itself occurred to me as well, so I tried to find a specific definition for "immunity to illusions". All I found was stuff about sightless creatures being immune to things that rely on sight.

[danielxcutter]

Nothing prevents you from casting it on your teammates though. Of course, the CL and not being the Greater version means it's not going to age terribly well, but by then you can afford to either pump your mundane stealth abilities or get better invisibility. And besides, Invisibility is arguably the least impressive on this thing besides the pitiful SR.

[Beni-Kujaku]

The idea that it can't cast their SLA on itself occurred to me as well, so I tried to find a specific definition for "immunity to illusions". All I found was stuff about sightless creatures being immune to things that rely on sight.

The immunity to faerie fire means that it was clearly intended to be able to cast Invisibility on itself. Can't you suppress your immunities as you do your spell resistance? I think I read something about that somewhere.

Edit: relevant (indeed Daniel, it's pretty shaky) text:

"Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic (for example, an elf’s resistance to sleep effects) can suppress this quality. (PH, 177)"

[danielxcutter]

Some people here interpret it that way, but it's a bit shaky IMO.

[Tzardok]

I have a feeling that immunity to illusion was meant to be "always sees through illusions".

[danielxcutter]

Well, between the fluff and the crunch it's pretty obvious this thing is designed to be good at fighting drow, and at least decent against duergar and illithids. Duergar have Invisibility so that might be it.

[liquidformat]

After reading through everything I think I will go with +1 LA, while it is powerful I don't think it hits +2. At level 8+ we are getting to the point where physical ability scores start dropping off in value...

[Thurbane]

I have a feeling that immunity to illusion was meant to be "always sees through illusions".

That's how I would have read it too.

[Blue Jay]

I think I'll vote LA +2 for the black recluse: those ability score boosts are very large (+6 per HD), and this monster has a few viable options as far as party role and future advancement go.

Its offensive abilities don't seem particularly potent, though: it has three mediocre natural attacks bolstered by Rend and a little bit of energy damage; and an area-effect poison (without a bite attack, which is kind of unique). With the word "spectral" attached to its claws, I was thinking they might have a ghost touch function, but that's not the case.

There's apparently a +4 bonus to Hide checks missing somewhere (either that, or the writers forgot to apply the -4 for Large size). It also has an invisibility SLA and immunity to faerie fire. That's pretty neat (and the immunity to faerie fire is pretty unique); but I kind of feel like this creature's stealth abilities are a bit underwhelming. If I had designed it, I would have considered adding Hide in Plain Sight or a darkness SLA (especially with the ability to see in magical darkness).

I also notice that the black recluse's punching dagger and hand crossbow deal 1d8 damage, but Large-sized versions of these weapons should only deal 1d6 damage. I don't see Powerful Build or another "oversized weapon" ability, and the inappropriate-size penalty hasn't been applied, so I guess that's just an error to ignore?

Also, Debatra, where's the rule that paralysis defaults to 2d6 rounds?

[Debatra]

Also, Debatra, where's the rule that paralysis defaults to 2d6 rounds?

In the poison rules, under "Initial Damage". And that's not rounds; it's minutes.