The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

[Thurbane]

I don't think the chassis and special abilities make up for the 7 regular levels and 4 epic levels of casting that a regular Cleric 24 gets.

-0 from me.

[Remuko]

Easy -0. CR 6 lower than HD speaks for itself on top of what others have mentioned. Outside HD are nice but 13th level Cleric casting just isn't up to snuff even at the level of its CR. Big stats don't help without enough useful abilities which this thing doesnt have.

also large size but only one slam? weird. large creatures usually have two.

[Troacctid]

Didn't we just talk a couple monsters ago about how we're not comparing solely against high-tier casters? I think if you compare it against a T4 paladin instead of a T1 cleric—since that's really the more similar class—then it's really not all that close. They both have good saves and BAB with divine half-casting. But the blood mother gets 9th level spells by level 30, where the paladin never gets higher than 4ths. Both of them have "class features" that are primarily higher numbers or defensive immunities, but the blood mother's higher numbers are higher, and its immunities are stronger.

[Mystic Muse]

Since when are paladins tier 4? I thought they were tier 5.

[Troacctid]

Since when are paladins tier 4? I thought they were tier 5.

No, they're tier 4.

[Thurbane]

Haven't we been mostly comparing creatures with any innate casting with the equivalent casting class? I rallied about this when the Nymph was rated, and got outvoted.

There was a monster somewhat recently (maybe last thread, maybe earlier this one) that has casting well lower than it's HD, but the name escapes me. Maybe that would be a decent comparison point?

[edit] Maybe Protean Scourge I'm thinking of? Although I thought it was something more recent than that... [/edit]

[Beni-Kujaku]

Didn't we just talk a couple monsters ago about how we're not comparing solely against high-tier casters? I think if you compare it against a T4 paladin instead of a T1 cleric—since that's really the more similar class—then it's really not all that close. They both have good saves and BAB with divine half-casting. But the blood mother gets 9th level spells by level 30, where the paladin never gets higher than 4ths. Both of them have "class features" that are primarily higher numbers or defensive immunities, but the blood mother's higher numbers are higher, and its immunities are stronger.

We're comparing monsters with the classes they're most similar to, and which people will most frequently take levels of as this monster. The blood mother has cleric casting and not really much else. Would you say you'd take another class?

[Troacctid]

If you cast from the sorcerer list with the bard progression, which is the more relevant comparison?

[Beni-Kujaku]

If you cast from the sorcerer list with the bard progression, which is the more relevant comparison?

If you're more likely to continue as a sorcerer, then sorcerer. If you're more likely to continue as a bard or something (if you have a focus on bardic music, or if you're really casting as a bard but you can choose from the sorcerer spell list as well), then bard or something.

[Troacctid]

If you're more likely to continue as a sorcerer, then sorcerer. If you're more likely to continue as a bard or something (if you have a focus on bardic music, or if you're really casting as a bard but you can choose from the sorcerer spell list as well), then bard or something.

So if you have bard-like casting, but you use the cleric spell list, and you have full BAB and paladin-like features, then the closest comparison is...

[danielxcutter]

Okay but why are these things CR 18? Not exactly seeing that either, honestly.

[Beni-Kujaku]

So if you have bard-like casting, but you use the cleric spell list, and you have full BAB and paladin-like features, then the closest comparison is...

A bad cleric, exactly! That's why it's LA-0! It does not try to be a paladin. If it did, there would be some sort of grace, or smiting, or, I don't know, paladin spells. It tries to be a cleric, with some minionmancy and a high focus on spells and SLAs. We're not rating monsters by comparing them with something that has the same level of power. That's not what "most similar to" means. If we did, everything would be +0 except things that are weaker than a commoner. We're comparing them with things that try to do the same things it tries to accomplish.
If we compared the bulette to something like a warblade/swordsage and the average salamander to a fighter 9, then they would both be LA+0. But both of them try, at their core, to hit people on the face to kill them. And the bulette is better. So the bulette gets LA+1 and the salamander gets LA-0.

[Troacctid]

Okay but why are these things CR 18? Not exactly seeing that either, honestly.

Why is anything CR anything? Who knows? This thing has the same CR as a 19th level cleric, or a 19th level samurai, or a balor.

A bad cleric, exactly! That's why it's LA-0! It does not try to be a paladin. If it did, there would be some sort of grace, or smiting, or, I don't know, paladin spells. It tries to be a cleric, with some minionmancy and a high focus on spells and SLAs. We're not rating monsters by comparing them with something that has the same level of power. That's not what "most similar to" means. If we did, everything would be +0 except things that are weaker than a commoner. We're comparing them with things that try to do the same things it tries to accomplish.
If we compared the bulette to something like a warblade/swordsage and the average salamander to a fighter 9, then they would both be LA+0. But both of them try, at their core, to hit people on the face to kill them. And the bulette is better. So the bulette gets LA+1 and the salamander gets LA-0.

But it's not trying to do full caster things. It's trying to do half caster or 2/3 caster things, which is to say, have some casting while also being a beatstick and/or skill person. And it actually is quite paladin-esque if you think about it: blood elemental summons line up with the special mount, immunities line up with aura of courage/divine health, and just plain higher base stats line up with divine grace/smite evil.

[Efrate]

But in epic play a non full caster with such a gimped chasis is not good enough. Your raw numbers are not good enough. You are dex heavy which makes very little sense for a bruiser type, your grapple stuff is not good enough, you have good saves and okay Dr, but defensive stuff on that level is not good enough. Double or triple grapple bonus with no size restrictions and you might get there versus a non-fom or low level epic beatstick, but you can just fly above and use a longbow versus most of those already and be fine.

[Troacctid]

I don't know that I'd describe it as a gimped chassis. I mean, it is an outsider, not an elemental.

[unseenmage]

I don't think the chassis and special abilities make up for the 7 regular levels and 4 epic levels of casting that a regular Cleric 24 gets.

-0 from me.

Agreed. -0

[danielxcutter]

Actually, question - are these still worth their CR? They seem a little weak for CR 18. Not too much, almost certainly higher than CR 13, but I’m not sure what’d be the best.

[Remuko]

Actually, question - are these still worth their CR? They seem a little weak for CR 18. Not too much, almost certainly higher than CR 13, but I’m not sure what’d be the best.

thats my first thought as well which is what has me 100% convinced this is not +0 much less higher.

[Lans]

I don't think cleric is the appropriate comparison point. I would go +0 if paladin is an acceptable comparison point

[danielxcutter]

I'm not of the opinion that these deserve a positive LA; at that level you can have had bled(heh) a LOT of caster levels and still have 9ths. Though that may be a bad comparison though; a good number of prestige classes are mostly just considered bad because of crappy spell progression and are likely much more tolerable if you can have your cake and eat it at the same time.

Comparing it to such builds might provide some insight? I dunno though, even something like an Eye of Lolth build would have 8ths by now.

[Beni-Kujaku]

But it's not trying to do full caster things. It's trying to do half caster or 2/3 caster things, which is to say, have some casting while also being a beatstick and/or skill person.

One slam and 20 str at level 24 is not being a beatstick, it's being a caster with some defense (and even then, +9 natural armor isn't good defense). But I digress.


There are two things to consider that I feel you often overlook when looking at monsters.

First, even compared to a paladin, this thing falls super short. A 24th level paladin can quicken all its spells with Battle Blessing, prepare wizard spells with Sword of the Arcane Order, can Turn undead and use Divine feats, can probably diplomance their way out of a combat with Emissary of Barachiel, or has Mettle with Pious Templar, has a continuous Circle against Evil and a better smite with Fist of Raziel........... I feel like most of the time, you're assuming people will play straight classes up until epic level, and consider a monster good if it can reasonably compare to one aspect of something like Monk 20. That's not how 3.5 is played, especially not in the non-full caster side of it. People will try to get class features. They will try to get a prestige class before level 10, and a few levels in another class for some synergy. A monster will generally have way less option and even less support for its abilities.

Second, consistency. This thread is not new. It's been 6 years since the playground started rating monsters, and it has created precedents. My example of a mature silver dragon earlier wasn't innocent. MSD is in almost the same position as the blood mother. A monster with a good chassis and around half its RHD in sorcerer levels. Was it compared to something like a hexblade 25, compared to which it might have gotten slightly closer to +0? No. It was compared to a sorcerer, because it has sorcerer casting, and because most gish builds don't choose hexblade (You were even there at the time, and did not object at anything!). I see absolutely no difference that would make me rate the blood mother differently to a MSD.


Now, as always, this is a discussion thread, and you're entitled to your opinion. But I believe that if you're always choosing the worst point of comparison to make the monster look better while disregarding most of the thread's methods, you'll often end up without many people following you.

[danielxcutter]

I’m not sure if SotAO paladins are terribly common(especially outside FR) and I don’t even know how good Fist of Raziel is, but like… unlike paladins or clerics, you won’t be able to take divine feats for quite a while, because you only get the casting. You have excellent defenses, but frankly you could get more or less all of them from WBL alone. About the only things that stay relevant at all are the spells and the chassis, and while you’re not exactly going to be completely useless in combat you’re still very, very far behind on casting.

I mean… forget Solars. A pit fiend or balor would take this thing out to the cleaners.

Edit: that being said comparing the dragon to a Hexblade is kinda weird. Duskblades might have been a better comparison.

[Caelestion]

If this had even 18 HD, say, I think it would be a decent creature, what with 13th-level casting and huge stat mods, but this has 24 HD. LA -0.

[danielxcutter]

So… how much does it feel like the CR should be? 3.0e CRs are pretty damn arbitrary, and while it does have real good stat modifiers I hesitate to rate this at the CR 18 it is.

[Temotei]

Outsider RHD are really good and 13th-level cleric casting is pretty great, but 24 RHD is a lot to ask even when they're strong. It doesn't have many other features I would consider level-appropriate. I think I'm going to vote -0, but I could be swayed to +0.

I agree that paladin is the closer comparison point between paladin and cleric.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Okay, I'm convinced. Despite its superior chassis, the Blood Mother doesn't actually have much to do with it, and so falls up short compared to a Paladin. -0

[Thurbane]

So… how much does it feel like the CR should be? 3.0e CRs are pretty damn arbitrary, and while it does have real good stat modifiers I hesitate to rate this at the CR 18 it is.

Very rough guess, I'd peg it at CR 15-16, maybe?

[Troacctid]

One slam and 20 str at level 24 is not being a beatstick, it's being a caster with some defense (and even then, +9 natural armor isn't good defense). But I digress.


There are two things to consider that I feel you often overlook when looking at monsters.

First, even compared to a paladin, this thing falls super short. A 24th level paladin can quicken all its spells with Battle Blessing, prepare wizard spells with Sword of the Arcane Order, can Turn undead and use Divine feats, can probably diplomance their way out of a combat with Emissary of Barachiel, or has Mettle with Pious Templar, has a continuous Circle against Evil and a better smite with Fist of Raziel........... I feel like most of the time, you're assuming people will play straight classes up until epic level, and consider a monster good if it can reasonably compare to one aspect of something like Monk 20. That's not how 3.5 is played, especially not in the non-full caster side of it. People will try to get class features. They will try to get a prestige class before level 10, and a few levels in another class for some synergy. A monster will generally have way less option and even less support for its abilities.

Second, consistency. This thread is not new. It's been 6 years since the playground started rating monsters, and it has created precedents. My example of a mature silver dragon earlier wasn't innocent. MSD is in almost the same position as the blood mother. A monster with a good chassis and around half its RHD in sorcerer levels. Was it compared to something like a hexblade 25, compared to which it might have gotten slightly closer to +0? No. It was compared to a sorcerer, because it has sorcerer casting, and because most gish builds don't choose hexblade (You were even there at the time, and did not object at anything!). I see absolutely no difference that would make me rate the blood mother differently to a MSD.


Now, as always, this is a discussion thread, and you're entitled to your opinion. But I believe that if you're always choosing the worst point of comparison to make the monster look better while disregarding most of the thread's methods, you'll often end up without many people following you.

I'm not the one who set the standard of comparing to the closest class of T4 or higher. Paladin—single-class paladin—is T4, and it's clearly the closest comparison point, or at least one of the top 3. Is a blood mother with the standard array, book feats, 3.0 outsider HD, and no WBL worse than a PC paladin? Obviously, yes. But hopefully you're using PC stats and wealth, updating her to 3.5, and picking actual good feats instead of leaving multiple slots blank, because that's how monster PCs work. Most of us don't start our characters with an array of all 10s and 11s. But if that's how your campaign does it, then I can only speak for myself, but personally, if I'm playing a beatstick, I'd rather have 20 Strength than 10. Meanwhile, a paladin prestige class that essentially sublime chorded them up to 9ths in epic would be a slam dunk. I would have no problem playing this over a paladin 24. Frankly, I'd have no problem playing it over a divine bard 24 either.

Adult silver dragons have casting of less than a third of their HD. Blood mothers have casting of more than half. What's the difference between 3rd level spells and 7th level spells? About two tiers. I think adult silvers come out ahead of the hexblade, but hexblade is tier 5, not tier 4. And for the record, this was the rating for the silver dragon, which included zero (0) comparisons to a sorcerer.

I can't believe you're evaluating the monsters without even giving them the elite array and scolding me for supposedly disregarding thread methods. *shakes head*

[Thurbane]

Legit question: what previous monsters with innate casting have we compared to Bards, Hexblades, Paladins or similar? I think there have been 1 or 2, but not sure which...

[Tzardok]

I'm pretty sure at least the lillend was compared to the bard.