A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #91
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    ...How good does metamagic play with necromancy, actually? Empower and Maximize for Enervation, Heighten for Save-or-X spells, Twin for, well, it's good for most things anyways, and is that it? I honestly don't know that much about necromancy spells.
    Extend and Widen have a few uses, particularly at lower levels and in cases where you aren't killing everything in the fight. An Extended Enervate will inflict permanent negative levels, for instance, and there's a few one-rounders that become much more attractive save-or-suck actions when you get a second. Also Maximize Poison for hilarious amounts of Con damage. 5 hp/hd on the spot, taking a huge chunk out of most things. Also Retributive Spell for a weird +1, makes a single-target spell into an Immediate Action to cast on someone who hit you in melee.

    Echoing Spell is, as mentioned, nuts, lets you cast a bunch more Animate Deads from a single slot.

  2. - Top - End - #92
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Debatra's Avatar

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Reach Animate Dead is deceptively-useful for mid-combat minionmancy. Though you'll probably prefer either a Rod or a level of Archmage/Heirophant over taking the actual feat. I had a dungeon boss pull that trick once.
    Last edited by Debatra; 2021-06-06 at 02:54 AM.
    Kaedanis Pyran, tai faernae.

    The LA Assignment Threads: Attempting to Make Monsters Playable Since 2016

    My Homebrewer's Extended Signature
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Roland just endorsed a crack pairing?


    Did... did we break the universe?
    Quote Originally Posted by SassyQuatch View Post
    It is a major flaw in the game. Destroy a moon? Sure. Talk to somebody a hundred miles away, that's going to be difficult.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    Realistically speaking... D&D style magic doesn't exist, so... let's ignore reality.

  3. - Top - End - #93
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    danielxcutter's Avatar

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Shame that undead minionmancy drops off sharply at higher levels, really. Preventing PCs from getting it is one thing, making it useless for BBEGs is another really. Because wow, the Create Greater Undead list sucks.
    Cool elan (no not that kind) Illithid Slayer by linkele.

    Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Archive Of Our Own FanFiction.net DeviantArt
    We also have a TvTropes page!

    Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)

    Extended signature here.

  4. - Top - End - #94
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Thurbane's Avatar

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Song of the Dead feat from Dragon Compendium is a +1 metamagic feat that alters mind-affecting spells so that they can affect intelligent (only). It also changes the spell school to Necromancy. The wording of the feat implies that it only works prepared spells, but I think that was fixed in errata.

    So, oddly enough, a Slaymate might be a nice companion for a Beguiler or Enchanter.

  5. - Top - End - #95
    Orc in the Playground
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    Sep 2013

    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Having one of these stick around as a companion to your necromancer might be better than a 4 HD, CR4 frontliner.

    But as a PC in its own right, I'd rather use one of my Y+1/day of spell level X for the metamagic spell, AND still have all my Z+1/day of SL X-1 left, AND have access to SL X+1 AND SL X+2 in the first place, than to use one of my Z/day, have "all" my Y/day of SL X, and no access to SL X+1 or SL X+2. All of this at a CL difference of 4. That metamagic reduction is so not worth dropping four levels of spellcasting progression.

    And on any other role (carrying the bonus for your spellcaster buddy - keep in mind the two of you will have to stay close together, which isn't really guaranteed when you're playing different roles), the other bonuses are either too unfocused to be a relevant boon to any normal build, and MAD builds would rather reduce MADness, making the bonuses less valuable in the process.

    To summarize, the slaymate's features are way worse than four class levels worth of class features. -0.



    I do enjoy the brat having a diseased bite though. Children are dis-gus-täng.

  6. - Top - End - #96
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GreatWyrmGold's Avatar

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    Sounds fun to me, though I've been lacking in inspiration for comp. builds recently, so I can't guarantee entering. Would you include the Negative LA thread, or just the 'main' ones?
    Probably just the main one; I'm pretty sure there are at least three negative LA threads, only one of which is active, and none of which have even finished the Monster Manual. If we decide to run more than one, maybe we can experiment with negative LA's and see how that works out.


    I've got a rough draft of the rules for a hypothetical LA-Assignment-Thread Character Contest [working title] written up. Thoughts?

    Spoiler
    Show
    Monster Mash
    This competition is for monstrous adventurers, in part to experiment with the possibilities they offer and in part to make use of the revised level adjustments which Inevitability and Debatra have spent five years assigning.
    Adventurers designed for this contest must be of a monstrous race. For the purpose of this contest, “monstrous race” excludes all races designed for PC use, unless their level adjustment has been increased by one or more templates.
    “Monstrous race” is a somewhat vague category, by necessity. No simple set of rules can exclude every single PC race without also excluding some genuine monsters. Entries which flout this rule with borderline-monstrous races risk a penalty to their Monstrosity score.

    For the purpose of this competition, all races use the level adjustments listed in the LA Assignment Archive. Races with a -0 level adjustment are treated as if they had a +0 level adjustment. Monsters not yet rated may not be used.
    If a race’s level adjustment includes an asterisk, some of the monster’s abilities will be removed, such as a wight’s spawn creation, a dryad’s tree dependency, or a genie’s wishes. Consult individual entries to see what is lost.

    Contestants
    You will need to present a full build for your entry, from its first level to level 20. Also required is a rundown of how your build works at lower levels, to demonstrate that it is a functional character that could be played in a real game.
    Traditionally participants in similar competitions give "snapshots" of tactics and abilities at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. Depending on the monstrous race chosen, your character may be unavailable at lower levels; in that case, instead give snapshots at various levels where it is playable. If the monster’s

    Kitchen/Secret Laboratory/??? [need fun thematic name]
    32 point-buy is the presumed creation method.
    If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.
    Competitors will be free to use any official 1st party (WotC) 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Compendium is allowed, but Dragon magazine is disallowed. Unearthed Arcana is allowed. Unupdated 3.0 materials, as well as web exclusives by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion.
    NB: Official Errata and 3.5 updates to 3.0 content are considered valid regardless of whether their sources would otherwise be legal. This includes the 3.5 update of Oriental Adventures given in Dragon Magazine, and the 3.5 updates of Dragonlance Campaign Setting content given in later third party Dragonlance books.
    Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Item Familiars and Taint are also banned from the competition. Leadership and all similar abilities are banned for sanity reasons. Builds that are fully monstrous are allowed at no penalty.

    Bans:

    Any material that grants you leadership without you specifically taking it should be ignored and may not be traded away for another feat or ACF. Undead Leadership and Dragon Cohort are likewise banned. Wild Cohort and Obtain Familiar are allowed. If you are not sure if a specific feat violates the 'no leadership' rule, err on the side of caution, or ask me.
    However, Leadership may be taken to qualify for another feat or class (such as the Great Captain feat or Legendary Leader prestige class), though a character still doesn't get its usual benefit in those cases. This is to allow characters to access unproblematic material that'd otherwise be made unavailable because of the Leadership ban.

    Because this contest involves creating a build up to level 20, no race with a base ECL higher than 20 is allowed.

    The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party).
    The Illithid Savant prestige class is specifically banned. You are free to write mind flayer entries as gaining their class levels, feats, etc from eating brains, but the Savant class itself is too open-ended and ripe for abuse.

    Deadlines

    Judging
    Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, and Monstrosity.
    Scores of zero may be applied in cases of exceptional misconduct (plagiarism earns a 0 in Originality, failure to meet prerequisites earns a 0 in Elegance, non-monstrous races earn a 0 in Monstrosity, etc); otherwise, all entries should receive at least one full point in each category.
    • Originality: Is it unexpected or novel?
    • Power: Can it do what the concept asks of it? Is this a powerfully-built character?
    • Elegance: Is it mechanically straighforward or “pretty”?
    • Monstrosity: Is the monstrous character’s race used?


    Elegance and Monstrosity demand further elaboration.
    Elegance measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. Use of flaws is considered in poor taste, and judges are asked to take a dim view of this option, taking it into account while grading. Other things that will cause penalties here are excessive multi-classing, and classes that don't fit the concept.
    A legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using conflicting setting material may result in a penalty to Elegance at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not. In that same vein, drawing solely from the Core 3 (and the d20 SRD) should not be punished for lacking Originality.
    Monstrosity measures how necessary the entry’s monster race was to the submission. We want to build monstrous adventurers here, not standard Iron Chef builds with a few racial hit dice at the start. Builds which could not function without the monstrous features of their race earn high Monstrosity scores, while builds which could work on any PC race with no changes will take Monstrosity penalties. Builds using non-monstrous races will also take penalties to Monstrosity.

    Presentation
    Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.

    Spoiler
    Show
    NAME OF ENTRY
    Level Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features
    1st New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    2nd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    3rd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    4th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    5th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    6th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    7th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    8th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    9th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    10th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    11th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    12th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    13th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    14th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    15th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    16th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    17th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    18th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    19th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    20th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities

    Code immediately below (spoiler).
    Spoiler
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    [table="class: head alt1 alt2"]
    [tr]
    [th][B]Level[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Class[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Base Attack Bonus[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Fort Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Ref Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Will Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Skills[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Feats[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Class Features[/B][/th]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]1st[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]2nd[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]3rd[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]4th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]5th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]6th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]7th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]8th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]9th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]10th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]11th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]12th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]13th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]14th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]15th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]16th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]17th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]18th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]19th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]20th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]


    For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)

    Spoiler
    Show
    Spells per Day/Spells Known
    Level 0lvl 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
    1st - - - - - - - - - -
    2nd - - - - - - - - - -
    3rd - - - - - - - - - -
    4th - - - - - - - - - -
    5th - - - - - - - - - -
    6th - - - - - - - - - -
    7th - - - - - - - - - -
    8th - - - - - - - - - -
    9th - - - - - - - - - -
    10th - - - - - - - - - -
    11th - - - - - - - - - -
    12th - - - - - - - - - -
    13th - - - - - - - - - -
    14th - - - - - - - - - -
    15th - - - - - - - - - -
    16th - - - - - - - - - -
    17th - - - - - - - - - -
    18th - - - - - - - - - -
    19th - - - - - - - - - -
    20th - - - - - - - - - -
    Code immediately below (spoiler)
    Spoiler
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    [B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
    [table="class:head alt1 alt2"]
    [tr]
    [th][B]Level[/B][/th]
    [th][B]0lvl[/B][/th]
    [th][B]1st[/B][/th]
    [th][B]2nd[/B][/th]
    [th][B]3rd[/B][/th]
    [th][B]4th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]5th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]6th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]7th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]8th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]9th[/B][/th]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]1st[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]2nd[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]3rd[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]4th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]5th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]6th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]7th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]8th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]9th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]10th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]11th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]12th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]13th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]14th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]15th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]16th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]17th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]18th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]19th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]20th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]


    For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.

    Speculation
    Please don’t post or speculate on possible builds until the reveal, in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
    Once builds are revealed, please do not comment on errors or rules issues on entries unless you are a judge. If you have such a comment, wait until the final reveal to post it.

    Submission
    To standardize Entries, please use this format when sending it in:
    PM: GreatWyrmGold
    Subject: [competition name], Name of your Entry
    For Revisions and disputes, do the same thing. It makes it easier for me finding the entries in my mail box.
    More questions? PM me with [competition name] Questions in the header.

    Houserules/Clarifications
    D&D 3.5 is far from a perfect system, and inflated level adjustments are far from the only example of this. Many rules are ambiguous, absent, or just badly-written. I make no claim to fixing the system, but feel some “house rules” are in order:
    Spoiler
    Show

    [list][*]All creatures are proficient with any natural weapons they may have or acquire.[*]Bonus feats that are granted even if you do not meet the prerequisites do not require you to meet the prerequisites in order to use.[*]Able Learner's benefit applies to the level you take it.[*]Weapons from soulmelds are considered to be magic weapons.[*]Unarmed Swordsage grants Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1.[*]Spelltouched feats are legal and can be taken just like any other feat when you meet the prerequisites and have the feat slot available.[*]Possessing innate spellcasting from your race is treated as a spellcasting class for the purposes of prestige classes which provide new spells per day, an increase in caster level, and spells known (if applicable) as if you had gained a level in a spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.


    Acknowledgments
    Much of the language in these rules was inspired or directly copied from the rules for the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground and/or Villainous Competition, both of which are inspirations for this contest. In addition, this contest would not be possible without the hard work of Inevitability and Debatra, re-assessing entire books’ worth of monsters and templates.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
    Quotes, more

    The Tale of Demman, Second King of Ireland, a CKII AAR, won a WritAAR of the Week award. Winner of Villainous Competitions 8 and 40; silver for 32
    Fanfic

    Pixel avatar by me! Other avatar by Recaiden.

  7. - Top - End - #97
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Debatra's Avatar

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    The votes so far:

    +0* (Pale Aura) - Thurbane
    +0 - Morphic tide, Lans, Tzardok, Lapak, Efrate
    -0 - Beni-Kujaku, Remuko, Lilapop
    Last edited by Debatra; 2021-06-06 at 02:53 PM.
    Kaedanis Pyran, tai faernae.

    The LA Assignment Threads: Attempting to Make Monsters Playable Since 2016

    My Homebrewer's Extended Signature
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Roland just endorsed a crack pairing?


    Did... did we break the universe?
    Quote Originally Posted by SassyQuatch View Post
    It is a major flaw in the game. Destroy a moon? Sure. Talk to somebody a hundred miles away, that's going to be difficult.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    Realistically speaking... D&D style magic doesn't exist, so... let's ignore reality.

  8. - Top - End - #98
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    I'll add my vote to +0.
    Ich erträum' mir ein Gefieder.
    Dieser Zauber hat Bestand.
    Und so flieg' ich immer wieder
    Wie der Nachtwind über's Land.

  9. - Top - End - #99
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    I think there's enough of an argument for +0; it can be a decent build on its own and in the right party it's a small but definite advantage, which tips the scales for me. FWIW, Morphic tide's breakdown in particular was convincing.

  10. - Top - End - #100
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    +0 from me as well.

    Minionmancy can keep up, bone creatures and animate dread warrior are useful at all levels. Both allow you to essentially add whatever you kill as permanent minions with no loss of abilities. Kill a 15th level cleric? Animate dread warrior and its now your slave. No limits on number controlled. No check for control.

    And incoporeal undead maintain usefulness quite late. Many thinga just cannot deal with it.

  11. - Top - End - #101
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    danielxcutter's Avatar

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Quote Originally Posted by Efrate View Post
    +0 from me as well.

    Minionmancy can keep up, bone creatures and animate dread warrior are useful at all levels. Both allow you to essentially add whatever you kill as permanent minions with no loss of abilities. Kill a 15th level cleric? Animate dread warrior and its now your slave. No limits on number controlled. No check for control.

    And incoporeal undead maintain usefulness quite late. Many thinga just cannot deal with it.
    You get spells four levels later. I’m not seeing how any better this is using necromancy itself.
    Cool elan (no not that kind) Illithid Slayer by linkele.

    Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Archive Of Our Own FanFiction.net DeviantArt
    We also have a TvTropes page!

    Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)

    Extended signature here.

  12. - Top - End - #102
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Probably just the main one; I'm pretty sure there are at least three negative LA threads, only one of which is active, and none of which have even finished the Monster Manual. If we decide to run more than one, maybe we can experiment with negative LA's and see how that works out.


    I've got a rough draft of the rules for a hypothetical LA-Assignment-Thread Character Contest [working title] written up. Thoughts?

    Spoiler
    Show
    Monster Mash
    This competition is for monstrous adventurers, in part to experiment with the possibilities they offer and in part to make use of the revised level adjustments which Inevitability and Debatra have spent five years assigning.
    Adventurers designed for this contest must be of a monstrous race. For the purpose of this contest, “monstrous race” excludes all races designed for PC use, unless their level adjustment has been increased by one or more templates.
    “Monstrous race” is a somewhat vague category, by necessity. No simple set of rules can exclude every single PC race without also excluding some genuine monsters. Entries which flout this rule with borderline-monstrous races risk a penalty to their Monstrosity score.

    For the purpose of this competition, all races use the level adjustments listed in the LA Assignment Archive. Races with a -0 level adjustment are treated as if they had a +0 level adjustment. Monsters not yet rated may not be used.
    If a race’s level adjustment includes an asterisk, some of the monster’s abilities will be removed, such as a wight’s spawn creation, a dryad’s tree dependency, or a genie’s wishes. Consult individual entries to see what is lost.

    Contestants
    You will need to present a full build for your entry, from its first level to level 20. Also required is a rundown of how your build works at lower levels, to demonstrate that it is a functional character that could be played in a real game.
    Traditionally participants in similar competitions give "snapshots" of tactics and abilities at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. Depending on the monstrous race chosen, your character may be unavailable at lower levels; in that case, instead give snapshots at various levels where it is playable. If the monster’s

    Kitchen/Secret Laboratory/??? [need fun thematic name]
    32 point-buy is the presumed creation method.
    If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.
    Competitors will be free to use any official 1st party (WotC) 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Compendium is allowed, but Dragon magazine is disallowed. Unearthed Arcana is allowed. Unupdated 3.0 materials, as well as web exclusives by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion.
    NB: Official Errata and 3.5 updates to 3.0 content are considered valid regardless of whether their sources would otherwise be legal. This includes the 3.5 update of Oriental Adventures given in Dragon Magazine, and the 3.5 updates of Dragonlance Campaign Setting content given in later third party Dragonlance books.
    Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Item Familiars and Taint are also banned from the competition. Leadership and all similar abilities are banned for sanity reasons. Builds that are fully monstrous are allowed at no penalty.

    Bans:

    Any material that grants you leadership without you specifically taking it should be ignored and may not be traded away for another feat or ACF. Undead Leadership and Dragon Cohort are likewise banned. Wild Cohort and Obtain Familiar are allowed. If you are not sure if a specific feat violates the 'no leadership' rule, err on the side of caution, or ask me.
    However, Leadership may be taken to qualify for another feat or class (such as the Great Captain feat or Legendary Leader prestige class), though a character still doesn't get its usual benefit in those cases. This is to allow characters to access unproblematic material that'd otherwise be made unavailable because of the Leadership ban.

    Because this contest involves creating a build up to level 20, no race with a base ECL higher than 20 is allowed.

    The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party).
    The Illithid Savant prestige class is specifically banned. You are free to write mind flayer entries as gaining their class levels, feats, etc from eating brains, but the Savant class itself is too open-ended and ripe for abuse.

    Deadlines

    Judging
    Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, and Monstrosity.
    Scores of zero may be applied in cases of exceptional misconduct (plagiarism earns a 0 in Originality, failure to meet prerequisites earns a 0 in Elegance, non-monstrous races earn a 0 in Monstrosity, etc); otherwise, all entries should receive at least one full point in each category.
    • Originality: Is it unexpected or novel?
    • Power: Can it do what the concept asks of it? Is this a powerfully-built character?
    • Elegance: Is it mechanically straighforward or “pretty”?
    • Monstrosity: Is the monstrous character’s race used?


    Elegance and Monstrosity demand further elaboration.
    Elegance measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. Use of flaws is considered in poor taste, and judges are asked to take a dim view of this option, taking it into account while grading. Other things that will cause penalties here are excessive multi-classing, and classes that don't fit the concept.
    A legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using conflicting setting material may result in a penalty to Elegance at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not. In that same vein, drawing solely from the Core 3 (and the d20 SRD) should not be punished for lacking Originality.
    Monstrosity measures how necessary the entry’s monster race was to the submission. We want to build monstrous adventurers here, not standard Iron Chef builds with a few racial hit dice at the start. Builds which could not function without the monstrous features of their race earn high Monstrosity scores, while builds which could work on any PC race with no changes will take Monstrosity penalties. Builds using non-monstrous races will also take penalties to Monstrosity.

    Presentation
    Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.

    Spoiler
    Show
    NAME OF ENTRY
    Level Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features
    1st New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    2nd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    3rd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    4th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    5th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    6th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    7th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    8th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    9th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    10th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    11th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    12th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    13th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    14th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    15th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    16th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    17th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    18th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    19th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    20th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities

    Code immediately below (spoiler).
    Spoiler
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    [table="class: head alt1 alt2"]
    [tr]
    [th][B]Level[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Class[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Base Attack Bonus[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Fort Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Ref Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Will Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Skills[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Feats[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Class Features[/B][/th]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]1st[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]2nd[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]3rd[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]4th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]5th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]6th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]7th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]8th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]9th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]10th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]11th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]12th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]13th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]14th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]15th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]16th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]17th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]18th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]19th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]20th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]


    For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)

    Spoiler
    Show
    Spells per Day/Spells Known
    Level 0lvl 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
    1st - - - - - - - - - -
    2nd - - - - - - - - - -
    3rd - - - - - - - - - -
    4th - - - - - - - - - -
    5th - - - - - - - - - -
    6th - - - - - - - - - -
    7th - - - - - - - - - -
    8th - - - - - - - - - -
    9th - - - - - - - - - -
    10th - - - - - - - - - -
    11th - - - - - - - - - -
    12th - - - - - - - - - -
    13th - - - - - - - - - -
    14th - - - - - - - - - -
    15th - - - - - - - - - -
    16th - - - - - - - - - -
    17th - - - - - - - - - -
    18th - - - - - - - - - -
    19th - - - - - - - - - -
    20th - - - - - - - - - -
    Code immediately below (spoiler)
    Spoiler
    Show
    [B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
    [table="class:head alt1 alt2"]
    [tr]
    [th][B]Level[/B][/th]
    [th][B]0lvl[/B][/th]
    [th][B]1st[/B][/th]
    [th][B]2nd[/B][/th]
    [th][B]3rd[/B][/th]
    [th][B]4th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]5th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]6th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]7th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]8th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]9th[/B][/th]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]1st[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]2nd[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]3rd[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]4th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]5th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]6th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]7th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]8th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]9th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]10th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]11th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]12th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]13th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]14th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]15th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]16th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]17th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]18th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]19th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]20th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]


    For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.

    Speculation
    Please don’t post or speculate on possible builds until the reveal, in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
    Once builds are revealed, please do not comment on errors or rules issues on entries unless you are a judge. If you have such a comment, wait until the final reveal to post it.

    Submission
    To standardize Entries, please use this format when sending it in:
    PM: GreatWyrmGold
    Subject: [competition name], Name of your Entry
    For Revisions and disputes, do the same thing. It makes it easier for me finding the entries in my mail box.
    More questions? PM me with [competition name] Questions in the header.

    Houserules/Clarifications
    D&D 3.5 is far from a perfect system, and inflated level adjustments are far from the only example of this. Many rules are ambiguous, absent, or just badly-written. I make no claim to fixing the system, but feel some “house rules” are in order:
    Spoiler
    Show

    [list][*]All creatures are proficient with any natural weapons they may have or acquire.[*]Bonus feats that are granted even if you do not meet the prerequisites do not require you to meet the prerequisites in order to use.[*]Able Learner's benefit applies to the level you take it.[*]Weapons from soulmelds are considered to be magic weapons.[*]Unarmed Swordsage grants Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1.[*]Spelltouched feats are legal and can be taken just like any other feat when you meet the prerequisites and have the feat slot available.[*]Possessing innate spellcasting from your race is treated as a spellcasting class for the purposes of prestige classes which provide new spells per day, an increase in caster level, and spells known (if applicable) as if you had gained a level in a spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.


    Acknowledgments
    Much of the language in these rules was inspired or directly copied from the rules for the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground and/or Villainous Competition, both of which are inspirations for this contest. In addition, this contest would not be possible without the hard work of Inevitability and Debatra, re-assessing entire books’ worth of monsters and templates.
    There are four, actually: the three inactive ones, including one that didn't reach the 2-page treshold, and mine (by the way, check it out! The more comments, the merrier!), with multiple methods to negatively adjust levels. If we are to use them as materials, then we will have to choose a preferred method (this part is easy, RHD reduction is the one method that has the slightest chance of being viable in a serious optimization contest), and to harmonize the threads (with the exception of the animated objects, the negative LA threads have never covered monsters that were already covered in previous negative LA threads, leading to some of them only getting a rating with a questionable method). But I agree that the main restriction is the number of creatures reviewed as of now. Having such a contest would be a good test of the validity of my, GWG's and Martixy's ratings: if everybody chooses -0 monsters as their character, that's a good sign that we should put them at higher RHD.


    For the rules for Monster Mash:

    All in all, pretty good and simple sets of rules. Why 32 point-buy when most other competitions play with 30 points? Also, you mentioned Leadership banned twice (I agree it probably deserves it ^^) and might consider banning the beholder mage prestige class, which can break the game really easily too, even if not at the same level as Illithid Savant. Finally, mention the asterisks. How do you plan on handling them. I think something on the line of "Abilities from the monster specifically noted as warranting the asterisk in the thread post are just considered null and non-existent. If the monster is asterisked, but with no single ability mentioned, ask the chair what ability was meant."
    Finally, add a paragraph on the secret ingredient. I know you want to let people as free as possible, but limitations really do breed creativity.
    Trying to resurrect the Negative LA thread, any comment and discussion are very welcome!


    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  13. - Top - End - #103
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2013

    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilapop View Post
    Having one of these stick around as a companion to your necromancer might be better than a 4 HD, CR4 frontliner.

    But as a PC in its own right, I'd rather use one of my Y+1/day of spell level X for the metamagic spell, AND still have all my Z+1/day of SL X-1 left, AND have access to SL X+1 AND SL X+2 in the first place, than to use one of my Z/day, have "all" my Y/day of SL X, and no access to SL X+1 or SL X+2. All of this at a CL difference of 4. That metamagic reduction is so not worth dropping four levels of spellcasting progression.

    And on any other role (carrying the bonus for your spellcaster buddy - keep in mind the two of you will have to stay close together, which isn't really guaranteed when you're playing different roles), the other bonuses are either too unfocused to be a relevant boon to any normal build, and MAD builds would rather reduce MADness, making the bonuses less valuable in the process.

    To summarize, the slaymate's features are way worse than four class levels worth of class features. -0.
    +2 to four scores, +4 Cha, and a nonability? Where are you getting MAD being a big problem, your 14s in Str, Dex, and Wis are 16s, and your 16s are 18s. You could actually afford Str 18/Dex 14/Wis 14/Cha 20 on 28 point-buy if you want to be a frontline-focused Paladin. On the Elite Array, you can have 17 Str, 18 Cha, 15 Dex, 14 Wis, and 10 Int. Or even go Int 13/Wis 12 for access some further bodygard functions while still having spellcasting the first few levels, though being Small cuts into most of them.

    Look at my example case earlier. Can you tell me how that is LA -0? When you have a flat +5 AC, drop a +6 Con item (unless it's a Belt of Magnificence for your MADhouse) to invest in making up for your ~25% less health, under the assumption you self-heal with just your advantage on Deadly Touch instead of calling the whole thing a personal HP bank, and damage being a wash from your bonus attack?
    Last edited by Morphic tide; 2021-06-06 at 02:25 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #104
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Thurbane's Avatar

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    Thumbs up Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I've got a rough draft of the rules for a hypothetical LA-Assignment-Thread Character Contest [working title] written up. Thoughts?

    Spoiler
    Show
    Monster Mash
    This competition is for monstrous adventurers, in part to experiment with the possibilities they offer and in part to make use of the revised level adjustments which Inevitability and Debatra have spent five years assigning.
    Adventurers designed for this contest must be of a monstrous race. For the purpose of this contest, “monstrous race” excludes all races designed for PC use, unless their level adjustment has been increased by one or more templates.
    “Monstrous race” is a somewhat vague category, by necessity. No simple set of rules can exclude every single PC race without also excluding some genuine monsters. Entries which flout this rule with borderline-monstrous races risk a penalty to their Monstrosity score.

    For the purpose of this competition, all races use the level adjustments listed in the LA Assignment Archive. Races with a -0 level adjustment are treated as if they had a +0 level adjustment. Monsters not yet rated may not be used.
    If a race’s level adjustment includes an asterisk, some of the monster’s abilities will be removed, such as a wight’s spawn creation, a dryad’s tree dependency, or a genie’s wishes. Consult individual entries to see what is lost.

    Contestants
    You will need to present a full build for your entry, from its first level to level 20. Also required is a rundown of how your build works at lower levels, to demonstrate that it is a functional character that could be played in a real game.
    Traditionally participants in similar competitions give "snapshots" of tactics and abilities at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. Depending on the monstrous race chosen, your character may be unavailable at lower levels; in that case, instead give snapshots at various levels where it is playable. If the monster’s

    Kitchen/Secret Laboratory/??? [need fun thematic name]
    32 point-buy is the presumed creation method.
    If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.
    Competitors will be free to use any official 1st party (WotC) 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Compendium is allowed, but Dragon magazine is disallowed. Unearthed Arcana is allowed. Unupdated 3.0 materials, as well as web exclusives by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion.
    NB: Official Errata and 3.5 updates to 3.0 content are considered valid regardless of whether their sources would otherwise be legal. This includes the 3.5 update of Oriental Adventures given in Dragon Magazine, and the 3.5 updates of Dragonlance Campaign Setting content given in later third party Dragonlance books.
    Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Item Familiars and Taint are also banned from the competition. Leadership and all similar abilities are banned for sanity reasons. Builds that are fully monstrous are allowed at no penalty.

    Bans:

    Any material that grants you leadership without you specifically taking it should be ignored and may not be traded away for another feat or ACF. Undead Leadership and Dragon Cohort are likewise banned. Wild Cohort and Obtain Familiar are allowed. If you are not sure if a specific feat violates the 'no leadership' rule, err on the side of caution, or ask me.
    However, Leadership may be taken to qualify for another feat or class (such as the Great Captain feat or Legendary Leader prestige class), though a character still doesn't get its usual benefit in those cases. This is to allow characters to access unproblematic material that'd otherwise be made unavailable because of the Leadership ban.

    Because this contest involves creating a build up to level 20, no race with a base ECL higher than 20 is allowed.

    The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party).
    The Illithid Savant prestige class is specifically banned. You are free to write mind flayer entries as gaining their class levels, feats, etc from eating brains, but the Savant class itself is too open-ended and ripe for abuse.

    Deadlines

    Judging
    Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, and Monstrosity.
    Scores of zero may be applied in cases of exceptional misconduct (plagiarism earns a 0 in Originality, failure to meet prerequisites earns a 0 in Elegance, non-monstrous races earn a 0 in Monstrosity, etc); otherwise, all entries should receive at least one full point in each category.
    • Originality: Is it unexpected or novel?
    • Power: Can it do what the concept asks of it? Is this a powerfully-built character?
    • Elegance: Is it mechanically straighforward or “pretty”?
    • Monstrosity: Is the monstrous character’s race used?


    Elegance and Monstrosity demand further elaboration.
    Elegance measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. Use of flaws is considered in poor taste, and judges are asked to take a dim view of this option, taking it into account while grading. Other things that will cause penalties here are excessive multi-classing, and classes that don't fit the concept.
    A legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using conflicting setting material may result in a penalty to Elegance at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not. In that same vein, drawing solely from the Core 3 (and the d20 SRD) should not be punished for lacking Originality.
    Monstrosity measures how necessary the entry’s monster race was to the submission. We want to build monstrous adventurers here, not standard Iron Chef builds with a few racial hit dice at the start. Builds which could not function without the monstrous features of their race earn high Monstrosity scores, while builds which could work on any PC race with no changes will take Monstrosity penalties. Builds using non-monstrous races will also take penalties to Monstrosity.

    Presentation
    Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.

    Spoiler
    Show
    NAME OF ENTRY
    Level Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features
    1st New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    2nd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    3rd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    4th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    5th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    6th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    7th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    8th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    9th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    10th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    11th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    12th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    13th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    14th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    15th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    16th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    17th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    18th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    19th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    20th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities

    Code immediately below (spoiler).
    Spoiler
    Show
    [table="class: head alt1 alt2"]
    [tr]
    [th][B]Level[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Class[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Base Attack Bonus[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Fort Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Ref Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Will Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Skills[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Feats[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Class Features[/B][/th]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]1st[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]2nd[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]3rd[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]4th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]5th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]6th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]7th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]8th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]9th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]10th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]11th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]12th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]13th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]14th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]15th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]16th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]17th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]18th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]19th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]20th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]


    For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)

    Spoiler
    Show
    Spells per Day/Spells Known
    Level 0lvl 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
    1st - - - - - - - - - -
    2nd - - - - - - - - - -
    3rd - - - - - - - - - -
    4th - - - - - - - - - -
    5th - - - - - - - - - -
    6th - - - - - - - - - -
    7th - - - - - - - - - -
    8th - - - - - - - - - -
    9th - - - - - - - - - -
    10th - - - - - - - - - -
    11th - - - - - - - - - -
    12th - - - - - - - - - -
    13th - - - - - - - - - -
    14th - - - - - - - - - -
    15th - - - - - - - - - -
    16th - - - - - - - - - -
    17th - - - - - - - - - -
    18th - - - - - - - - - -
    19th - - - - - - - - - -
    20th - - - - - - - - - -
    Code immediately below (spoiler)
    Spoiler
    Show
    [B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
    [table="class:head alt1 alt2"]
    [tr]
    [th][B]Level[/B][/th]
    [th][B]0lvl[/B][/th]
    [th][B]1st[/B][/th]
    [th][B]2nd[/B][/th]
    [th][B]3rd[/B][/th]
    [th][B]4th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]5th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]6th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]7th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]8th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]9th[/B][/th]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]1st[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]2nd[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]3rd[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]4th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]5th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]6th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]7th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]8th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]9th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]10th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]11th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]12th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]13th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]14th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]15th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]16th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]17th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]18th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]19th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]20th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]


    For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.

    Speculation
    Please don’t post or speculate on possible builds until the reveal, in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
    Once builds are revealed, please do not comment on errors or rules issues on entries unless you are a judge. If you have such a comment, wait until the final reveal to post it.

    Submission
    To standardize Entries, please use this format when sending it in:
    PM: GreatWyrmGold
    Subject: [competition name], Name of your Entry
    For Revisions and disputes, do the same thing. It makes it easier for me finding the entries in my mail box.
    More questions? PM me with [competition name] Questions in the header.

    Houserules/Clarifications
    D&D 3.5 is far from a perfect system, and inflated level adjustments are far from the only example of this. Many rules are ambiguous, absent, or just badly-written. I make no claim to fixing the system, but feel some “house rules” are in order:
    Spoiler
    Show

    [list][*]All creatures are proficient with any natural weapons they may have or acquire.[*]Bonus feats that are granted even if you do not meet the prerequisites do not require you to meet the prerequisites in order to use.[*]Able Learner's benefit applies to the level you take it.[*]Weapons from soulmelds are considered to be magic weapons.[*]Unarmed Swordsage grants Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1.[*]Spelltouched feats are legal and can be taken just like any other feat when you meet the prerequisites and have the feat slot available.[*]Possessing innate spellcasting from your race is treated as a spellcasting class for the purposes of prestige classes which provide new spells per day, an increase in caster level, and spells known (if applicable) as if you had gained a level in a spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.


    Acknowledgments
    Much of the language in these rules was inspired or directly copied from the rules for the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground and/or Villainous Competition, both of which are inspirations for this contest. In addition, this contest would not be possible without the hard work of Inevitability and Debatra, re-assessing entire books’ worth of monsters and templates.
    Looks good to me, at a glance.

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    All in all, pretty good and simple sets of rules. Why 32 point-buy when most other competitions play with 30 points?
    Because the thread I copied it from said 32 points. Heck if I remember which that was (it was one of the Iron Chef ones, but there's more than a hundred of those).

    Also, you mentioned Leadership banned twice (I agree it probably deserves it ^^)
    That's because I edited it good.

    and might consider banning the beholder mage prestige class, which can break the game really easily too, even if not at the same level as Illithid Savant.
    Ooh. Yeah, didn't think of that.

    Finally, mention the asterisks. How do you plan on handling them. I think something on the line of "Abilities from the monster specifically noted as warranting the asterisk in the thread post are just considered null and non-existent. If the monster is asterisked, but with no single ability mentioned, ask the chair what ability was meant."
    I'm pretty sure I mentioned something about that? Unless I typed it, then decided to replace it but forgot to type the new bit, because I edited it good?
    Look, those tables in the middle make proofreading a chore in a text editor.

    Finally, add a paragraph on the secret ingredient. I know you want to let people as free as possible, but limitations really do breed creativity.
    Well, yeah. But I don't have a theme in mind, and was considering just not having on the first round. (It's something I'd ask the thread about once I actually had a properly proofed set of rules.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    ...drop a +6 Con item (unless it's a Belt of Magnificence for your MADhouse) to invest in making up for your ~25% less health...
    Sorry to pluck this out of context, but the general consensus seems to be that losing out on Constitution (and with it a bunch of easy ways to increase HP) makes it more expensive/difficult to tank, not less?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
    Quotes, more

    The Tale of Demman, Second King of Ireland, a CKII AAR, won a WritAAR of the Week award. Winner of Villainous Competitions 8 and 40; silver for 32
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Okay guys, take it to its own thread.
    Kaedanis Pyran, tai faernae.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Roland just endorsed a crack pairing?


    Did... did we break the universe?
    Quote Originally Posted by SassyQuatch View Post
    It is a major flaw in the game. Destroy a moon? Sure. Talk to somebody a hundred miles away, that's going to be difficult.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    Realistically speaking... D&D style magic doesn't exist, so... let's ignore reality.

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Sorry to pluck this out of context, but the general consensus seems to be that losing out on Constitution (and with it a bunch of easy ways to increase HP) makes it more expensive/difficult to tank, not less?
    I think what they're getting at is yes, you have less health, but since you can't use the money the way a 'normal' tank would on a +6 CON item (which makes up part of that difference,) spend it in some other way that benefits your tankiness - a miss chance, punch up your regular or touch AC beyond what the normal tank would invest in, snag a Ring of Evasion, etc.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Sorry to pluck this out of context, but the general consensus seems to be that losing out on Constitution (and with it a bunch of easy ways to increase HP) makes it more expensive/difficult to tank, not less?
    Yes, but it's not a farce of a comparison to make, since you have Natural Armor taking some of the edge off and I'm attributing the Deadly Touch advantage as HP in the tank. Scrounging ~40 hp from those mechanics with full hit dice isn't that hard, you just need 2hp/hd from somewhere to get it nearly perfectly evened out.
    Last edited by Morphic tide; 2021-06-06 at 07:10 PM.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    And getting 2 HP/HD is easy? Besides, it’s not like a normal character couldn’t.
    Cool elan (no not that kind) Illithid Slayer by linkele.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    And getting 2 HP/HD is easy?
    I mean, it kind of is, yeah? Just take Improved Toughness and get a shroud companion spirit. You can throw in an amulet of tears for good measure if you want.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    I mean, it kind of is, yeah? Just take Improved Toughness and get a shroud companion spirit. You can throw in an amulet of tears for good measure if you want.
    Yeah, but normal PCs can do that anyways.

    Also what’s a shroud companion spirit again?
    Cool elan (no not that kind) Illithid Slayer by linkele.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Quote Originally Posted by Debatra View Post
    Okay guys, take it to its own thread.
    Alright, I guess the competition has officially started?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
    Quotes, more

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Yeah, but normal PCs can do that anyways.

    Also what’s a shroud companion spirit again?
    Anyone can pay gold and xp to do a ritual to create one. At the second tier (costs 1,000 xp and 1,050 gp per person), it grants all members of the party who've bought into it a continuous gentle repose effect and the ability to use false life (Sp) 1/day, as well as one of four general benefit packages (communication, spell storage, healing, or transference).

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Slaymate is +0. Spectral Lyrist coming up.
    Kaedanis Pyran, tai faernae.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Roland just endorsed a crack pairing?


    Did... did we break the universe?
    Quote Originally Posted by SassyQuatch View Post
    It is a major flaw in the game. Destroy a moon? Sure. Talk to somebody a hundred miles away, that's going to be difficult.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    Realistically speaking... D&D style magic doesn't exist, so... let's ignore reality.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Spectral Lyrist

    Size & Type: Medium Undead (Incorporeal)
    Space/Reach: 5'/5'
    HD: 6
    Speed: Fly 60' (Good)
    Ability Scores: Str -, Dex +4, Con -, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +6 - Net +16, no penalties
    Natural Armor: 5 (+Cha to Deflection)
    Natural Weapons: Incorporeal Touch (1d6 Charisma Drain)
    Skill List: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, Listen, Perform (Sing), Spot
    Body Shape: Humanoid
    Speech (Languages): Yes (Common, "plus one other language common to Humanoids in its environment, such as Dwarven, Elven, Goblin, or Orc")
    CR: 4
    WotC LA: -
    Our LA: +0* (Uncapped Charisma Boosting)

    Whenever a Spectral Lyrist drains a target's Charisma, they get five temporary HP and a single temporary point of Charisma (each of which last an hour). While it's a rare ability, we've asterisked things like this before because the lack of a cap makes it potentially abusable. (Such as the Shambling Mound.) Carve out the Charisma boosting but leave the rest untouched.

    Speaking of the rest, that Charisma Drain isn't automatic. It only works on living creatures, and allows a Charisma-based Fortitude save to avoid it. This is also how it satisfies its Inescapable Craving for Charisma.

    Alter Appearance lets it do as the name implies once per round as a free action. It can appear as any Medium Humanoid, gaining the standard +10 to Disguise checks those abilities tend to give. Anyone that fails to beat their Disguise check doesn't realize the Lyrist is incorporeal "until an attack passes harmlessly through the [Spectral Lyrist]". Presumably walking through walls would also give it away.

    Finally, it can use Bardic Music six times per day to Fascinate and Suggest, just as a Bard can. Note that this is not explicitly based on its HD, so advancing it to seven won't actually get it another Music use. It also doesn't explicitly stack with normal Bardic Music; so, for example, a Spectral Lyrist 6/Bard 1 most likely can't Inspire Competence.
    Last edited by Debatra; 2021-06-27 at 09:37 AM.
    Kaedanis Pyran, tai faernae.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Roland just endorsed a crack pairing?


    Did... did we break the universe?
    Quote Originally Posted by SassyQuatch View Post
    It is a major flaw in the game. Destroy a moon? Sure. Talk to somebody a hundred miles away, that's going to be difficult.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    Realistically speaking... D&D style magic doesn't exist, so... let's ignore reality.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    This is… Well, it’s more utility than a Shadow I guess?
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    They are actual proper Bardic Music uses, so you qualify for Dirgesinger, Stormsinger, Seeker of the Song, and any other Bard PRCs that ask for just "Bardic Music" uses rather than Inspire Courage in particular, and will count as uses should you take levels of Bard, so you're only behind on what you use it for rather than how many times you can use it. The Charisma drain qualifies you for Necrotic Reserve, which gives you a buffer of one instance of damage before being destroyed.

    In exchange for being behind two spell levels (this is The Big Ouch) +1 Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness coming on at 15, and never getting Inspire Heroics or Mass Suggestion, you have all the wonders of being an Incorporeal Undead, +5 Natural Armor in the circumstance that comes up, Charisma to Deflection, +4 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +6 Charisma, a Touch attack ability drain that goes after one of the most common dump stats. Who decidedly lacks the face-role interrupting matter of looking Undead, and in fact gets +10 to Disguise checks to further avoid suspicion when taking advantage of being Incorporeal to be where they shouldn't.

    I reiterate, you are an Incorporeal Undead. By rule your Deflection bonus and Concentration are Charisma based. You have two nonabilities that are secondary stats to many Bards in the first place, with Constitution's role being almost always covered by just how much of a pain you are to damage by being Incorporeal. You could also technically go Swordsage and/or Warblade for Tiger Claw and squeeze for attacks to maximize Charisma damage iterations and try to Charisma-drain anything fighting you into a coma, but then you need something else going on to use your Charisma modifier. Possibly a Tashalatora setup with a few Wilder levels to have Power dump?

    ...Actually, can you Full Attack with these Touch Attach effects or duplicate them with the Tiger Claw Maneuvers? Because 6 levels is nasty stuff for pretty much any progression but ToB, and you're Incorporeal so you're rather harshly penalized on the normal value proposition. This seems to be questionable in the common space of "Where Do You Go?" because there's not quite anything that you smoothly enter afterwards.

  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Most prestige classes that improve bardic music say that the levels stack with bard levels to determine the number of uses. What happens if you have no bard level?
    Trying to resurrect the Negative LA thread, any comment and discussion are very welcome!


    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    The obvious answer to "Where do you go?" is "Into a prestige class." My first thought would be to take a level of warrior skald and then go into war chanter. Another option is, of course, ur-priest, making use of that +4 Wisdom. A slightly late entry into sublime chord is viable too—if this is +0 LA, then five levels of wizard (or, even better, sha'ir) gets you there only a level behind a normal bard. Oh, and how about rogue? You can sneak attack with your Charisma drain touch! That seems very nice. Or maybe marshal, or binder...honestly, with these ability mods, I think you have a lot of potential paths.

    We can also compare it to other incorporeal undead. Shadows have 3 HD and ended up with +3 LA in spite of having substantially worse stats. Allips were +3 as well, with 4 HD—again, worse stats. Wraiths, with 5 HD, are probably the closest comparison, and they ended up with +2 LA. I think the spectral lyrist is essentially the same as or better than the wraith for our purposes, and I would be loath to put it at a lower ECL, which means it has to be at least +1; however, since it's clearly stronger than the ECL 7 wraith (IMO) and very close to the ECL 8 spectre, I think the best place for it is ECL 8, which means LA +2*.
    Last edited by Troacctid; 2021-06-08 at 05:18 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #120
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2013

    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

    Yeah, I wasn't sure about the precedent on Incorporeal Undead, and don't know enough of the interactions to pin down a specific build. I'll go along with LA +2*, with the star being specifically the boost on the Charisma drain.

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