The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

[remetagross]

Well I assume if a PC is playing such a monster then that means the ennemies are not going to be [evil] ones, else that would be an unforgiving GM.

[Troacctid]

Well I assume if a PC is playing such a monster then that means the ennemies are not going to be [evil] ones, else that would be an unforgiving GM.

Is it unforgiving of the DM to have the players fight evil villains? Or is it shortsighted of the player to assume the entire campaign will be custom-tailored specifically to allow their most powerful situational ability to work in every encounter, even though half the Monster Manual is normally immune to it?

[Metastachydium]

Well I assume if a PC is playing such a monster then that means the ennemies are not going to be [evil] ones, else that would be an unforgiving GM.

Granted, I don't really see this show up in anything other than a capital E Evil campaign which would mitigate the issue. On the other hand, this looks a bit like the thing with rangers. Let's say a ranger picks orcs, goblinoids and giants for favored enemies, dumping all increases into orcs. A GM who gleefully avoids ever letting our little ranger face any of those is a rectal orifice, but I don't think a GM is unforgiving unless they only use those categories as opponents to accomodate one player.

[liquidformat]

Well I assume if a PC is playing such a monster then that means the ennemies are not going to be [evil] ones, else that would be an unforgiving GM.

I really can't agree with this at all. I have been in plenty of games that explicitly allow monster races and evil characters but aren't evil campaigns, in which case that is just you as the player making a really dumb decision.

I have also been in many Evil campaigns and I don't think a single one of them didn't have at least a few evil creatures we had to fight, sure there was a larger number of good enemies but evil enemies were still there too.

There are enough issues with having a character that only has two things that it can do, has to invest ~50% of your build to doing said things, and those things don't scale that I can't reasonably see this thing getting over +0. Also as has been pointed out with only a fly speed of 20 you will need to be investing to bump up the speed otherwise enemies can just stay out of range and attack from afar.

[Temotei]

Actually, the more I look at this, the more I think it deserves +0, maybe even -0. I dunno. I've said before I don't like to debate too long between those since it doesn't really make a difference. No clear path for advancement and eventually its blasphemy gimmick falls off hard. The set DC on the soul suck ability is also a bummer. It has nice defenses, but I don't see them making up for its lack of options.

[Troacctid]

It's really clunky. Trap the soul is just okay. Blasphemy sucks. All you have left is a crappy golem with crappy stat mods and no item slots. We already have the flesh golem, cadaver golem, and gloom golem at similar HDs. None of them got more than a +0, and I think they were all more powerful than this. (Maybe not flesh golem. Honestly, though, it's close.)

I'm going with -0.

[TiaC]

I think people are really undervaluing CL9-24 Blasphemy at ECL 9. If the Blasphemy matches an enemy's HD, they lose a turn, and if it beats it by 5, they're completely out of the combat. It affects all non-evil creatures in a 40' radius, and doesn't offer a save. In an evil campaign where you will mainly be fighting good or neutral enemies, It will trivialize nearly every fight where it works for a few levels. I agree that it has no advancement, but it definitely isn't balanced at ECL 9. I don't know if it's any better balanced at a higher level. It's a one-trick pony, it's just that that trick is really good at lower levels.

[remetagross]

Besides, I did find a couple ways to bump that Blasphemy CL.

First, go to Supernatural Transformation. Now your Blasphemy ignores SR, doesn't provoke AoOs, and its CL is "the original CL or your HD, whichever is highest". So up until you reach 24 HDs, you're guaranteed to at least daze everyone, and sometimes more, no save no SR. And that's only one feat.

The Practised Magic feat works like Practised Spellcaster for SLA's, though Supernatural Transformation is strictly superior.

The Hellsworn feat requires two useless entry feats and prevents you from banishing extraplanar creatures away but permanently increases by 1 the save DC of your [evil] SLAs.

An Orange ioun stone gets you another +1.

Since you can choose to benefit from effects in the order most beneficial to you, nab that +2 to CL from the two last proposals for an effective CL of 3d6+8 and then turn that into a Su ability in case your HD exceeds that amount.

[Debatra]

You know, there are two points I suppose I should have made clearer.

Both stem from the fact that its Blasphemy ability is actually part of its Soul Suck ability rather than being its own. First, this makes it a Supernatural Ability instead of an SLA. Second, this makes the part of the ability where it says that it begins uttering Blasphemy "if foes remain once the skull is sated" from successfully sucking eight souls in a day feel less like flavor or default tactics, and more like an "it can't do X until Y" restriction.

Though it is not exactly explicit, and you could potentially just find eight easy targets at the beginning of the day (or a few less if you want to save some Soul Sucks for enemies).

---

The votes so far:

+2 - remetagross, Beni-Kujaku, Thurbane
+1 - loky1109
+0 - liquidformat, Temotei, Debatra
-0 - Metastachydium, Troacctid

You're reading that right, I'm actually going to vote this time. The way I see it, its two noteworthy abilities are good for their level, but you lack room to progress in any direction and they'll fall off with time. It's also pretty tanky for a disembodied floating head.

[Debatra]

Since apparently there isn't much else to say here, I'm going to say it averages out to roughly +0, though maybe a slightly strong one. Bogannarr is next.

[Debatra]

Demon, Bogannar

Size & Type: Small Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar, Tanar'ri)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
HD: 2
Speed: 30', Climb 20'
Ability Scores: Str +0, Dex +6, Con +2, Int -2, Wis +2, Cha -4 - Net +4, two penalties
Natural Armor: 3
Natural Weapons: Two Primary Claws (1d4), one Secondary Bite (1d4), one Secondary Tail Stinger (1d3 plus poison)
Skill List: Balance (+4 racial), Climb (+8 racial), Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Tumble
Body Shape: Six-Legged Monkey with a prehensile tail (which can explicitly grasp items), small nonfunctional wings
Speech (Languages): Understand Common and Abyssal, but "do not" speak, Telepathy 100'. (That doesn't necessarily mean can not speak I suppose.)
CR: 4
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +1

Immunity to poison and electricity, resistance 10 to fire, cold, and acid, and the aforementioned 100' telepathy are all handy. It can also Improved Grab if it hits a creature up to one size category larger than it with both claw attacks. With that in mind, I'll at least mention that they can advance to Medium size with three more RHD. Well, at least they're Outsider RHD. Also relevant is their 1/day self-only Enlarge "Person" SLA. CL is equal to HD.

They also have the ability to attempt to summon 1d4 other Bogannarrs, with a 40% chance to succeed, once per day.

Finally, they have a poisonous stinger on their tails. Primary and secondary damage are each 1d2 Con damage, with the DC being Constitution-based.

[Troacctid]

Seems pretty strong to me. Outsider HD are not bad, and there's only two of them. Ability adjustments are solid. Relevant subtypes—this is a good candidate for Fiend of Possession, and I expect that to be a common line of play for it, despite its Cha penalty. Telepathy, of course, we all know about Mindsight and how good that is. Nice natural attacks to support melee builds. The immunities and resistances are very nice. I think it's either a strong +0 or a weak +1. My main concern is that if it's +0, it opens up a very early entry to Fiend of Possession and gets at-will etherealness at ECL 4 without dropping any hit dice.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I can't see this one being +0. Being an Outsider is good in and of itself, and having 3 useable natural weapons without giving up the ability to wield items and weapons is really good. The stats are decent, and 3 natural armor on top of energy resistance will definitely make the difference at low level, the immunities are good... I feel like that's a solid LA+1.

[ciopo]

Well I assume if a PC is playing such a monster then that means the ennemies are not going to be [evil] ones, else that would be an unforgiving GM.

From what I've seen, 80% of evil campaigns is backstabbing other evils, more than fighting the good guys, so that assumption falls short to me.

[Temotei]

Back to relative normalcy. Seems like a good +1 to me.

[liquidformat]

I think this thing is very reasonable at +1 LA. Its quite powerful and I can see it being really nasty as a mystic ranger to pickup venomfire.

[loky1109]

Firstly I thought +2, but now I agree with +1.

[H_H_F_F]

Seems like a solid +1 to me. Nice to be in agreement. With medium size and a strength increase instead of a dex one, might have even been a +2.

How would you advance this thing? Psychic warrior, maybe?

[remetagross]

Swordsage seems a perfect fit: huge bonus to Dex, small bonus to Con and Wis. The slew of natural attacks means it's a perfect fit for a Shadow Blade build with Assassin's stance (not to mention a possible tail weapon too), and the RHD even means you only lose 1 initiator level.

Do I take a 4th-level Whisper Gnome swordsage over a 1th-level Bogannar? Hmm. Tough call. I guess that means I'm fine with LA+1.

[Morphic tide]

LA +1, Psychic Warrior seems the most relevant advancement option by a long shot since Expansion is cheap and the racial benefits cleanly replace quite a few Powers, as usual for monster-math. Being Dexterity instead of Strength is weird, but there's bonus feats to get stuff done with it.

[liquidformat]

How would you advance this thing? Psychic warrior, maybe?

Psychic warrior is a good way to go, its a decent choice for a NW blender. With only two RHD totemist or even doing a totem rager build isn't horrible either. I personally really like the look of Mystic Ranger focused on NWs for the combat style and leveraging venomfire for a bit more bang, adding in some levels of swordsage and/or warblade and maybe cherry picking a PRC or two.
Really there are a lot of ways to go with this thing, I personally like the idea of taking a level of barbarian for rage and pounce then a couple levels of swordsage, warblade, and/or rogue then hopping into assassin, blackguard, warmind, or other such stand alone caster PRCs. Or as Troacctid pointed out the thing can take its first level of Fiend of Possession at level 5 so you could do something silly like using that build presented a couple weeks ago to play as an item.

The one thing that makes me scratch my head is what's up with the enlarge person, does it explicitly have a caveat for that to work on this demon? That just seems a bit weird, if I was DMing I would probably just change that to expansion PLA though that might actually pump it up to +2...

[Remuko]

+1 seems good for the demon monkey. its got decent stats and speed and 4 natural weapons for its attack routine at decent base damages for its size, plus a poison and some good defensive traits from being a demon. fairly solid. nat ac is above normal for its HD. +1 is def reasonable.

[Thurbane]

Boganarr (sounds like some kind of uncouth pirate)

• Small Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar, Tanar'ri)
• 2 RHD (d8 hp, full BAB, all good saves, 8 skills points/"level")
• Speed 30 ft, climb 30 ft
• +3 natural AC
• 2 claws 1d4, bite 1d4, stinger 1d3 + poison (1d2 Con/1d2 Con)
• Enlarge self (1/day)
• Improved Grab: would be more useful with better Str and larger size.
• Summon tanar'ri: 1/day, 40% chance of 1d4 Boganarrs
• Darkvision 60 ft, telepathy 100 ft
• Immune to electricity and poison
• Resist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10
• Dex +6, Con +2, Int -2, Wis +2, Cha -4: net +4.
• Fairly decent racial skill list. +4 racial bonus on Balance and +8 on Climb.

Slightly unusual body shape, but shouldn't have any real issues with gear (odd that the fluff text says it has 6 arms, but it only gets two claw attacks - maybe only two of the arms end in claws; further down it says the have six legs?). The do not speak - I guess a generous DM would say they can, but generally chose not to.

This is a respectable chassis. Few enough RHD of the equally best kind not to be too much of a hindrance. Decent enough ability scores for the right build - Cha is a pretty common dump stat. I think they'd be well suited to a skill-monkey (hehe) role: maybe a Swordsage, or some kind of Wis based caster (if the DM rules it can talk. If not, there's always the Amulet of Freedom of Speech).

I feel this is very solid as +1, but maybe not quite +2, so I'll vote LA +1.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Strong +1 or maybe a weak +2.

3 extra Outsider HD to become medium... certainly isn't going above +0, and probably -0 (or would that be just no rating?).

[Metastachydium]

The one thing that makes me scratch my head is what's up with the enlarge person, does it explicitly have a caveat for that to work on this demon? That just seems a bit weird, if I was DMing I would probably just change that to expansion PLA though that might actually pump it up to +2...

It's not Enlarge Person, though, but rather a SLA called Enlarge that is described as working as Enlarge Person. I'll elect to see that as the caveat you're looking for. (This ability, by the way, is essentially identical to the earth mephit's Change Size SLA.)

[Beni-Kujaku]

Since this thread hasn't been active for a while, and maybe people haven't seen it, I thought I'd mention that:

I restarted the Monster Mash competition, the optimization competition based on reassigned LA. The current round, based on fear (link in my signature) is ongoing and we would like to have more contestants. If you want, please do come by and cook something!

[Debatra]

Oh, right...

I'd like to say I've been busy this past week, but the simple truth is... I've been meaning to update for a while now, but had just forgotten to. +1 for the Bogannar, Caligrosto coming up.

[Debatra]

Demon, Caligrosto

Hey, official art!

Size & Type: Medium Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar, Incorporeal, Loumara)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
HD: 8
Speed: 30', Fly 60' (Perfect)
Ability Scores: Str -, Dex +10, Con +8, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +12 - Net +36, no penalties
Natural Armor: N/A (ChaMod to Deflection)
Natural Weapons: One Primary Touch (1d6 Str)
Skill List: Bluff, Intimidate, Knowledge (Local, Planes), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble
Body Shape: Winged Humanoid
Speech (Languages): Yes (Common, Abyssal), Telepathy 100'.
CR: 6
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +2

Immunity to acid, electricity, and fire; 10 cold resistance; actually-relevant (for now at least) Spell Resistance of 17; and DR 15/bludgeoning and piercing (most likely intended to be "or", given this creature's focus on slashing weapons, but it clearly says "and") make for a great chassis. Though the DR is only active while its Fiendish Shade ability is.

Oh yeah, and it's also permanently invisible when not a Fiendish shade or using its ability to possess a weapon. Even when attacking. Invisibility Purge is noted to not work either.

Some of its abilities scale with HD, and nowhere does it specify Outsider HD or RHD. Also, most of its abilities reference each other and the article seems to have no rhyme or reason for the order in which they are described. This is me doing my best to coherently give them to you in the order they will be relevant.

Whenever it deals Str damage with its touch, it heals for 5 HP, gaining any excess as temporary HP.

A Caligrosto can attempt to possess any unattended slashing weapon as a full-round action that provokes AoOs. Nonmagical weapons get no save, though magical ones get a Charisma-based will save to resist, with permanent immunity to possession by that particular Caligrosto on a successful save. But that also works both ways, allowing it to come and go as it pleases as a move action if the save fails. The Caligostro can be forced out of a weapon via Banishment, Dismissal, Dispel Chaos, or Dispel Evil; and doing so allows a magical weapon to make another save the next time possession is attempted. If a weapon is destroyed while a Caligrosto is inside, they are forced out and must make a DC20 fortitude save or be stunned for 1d3 rounds.

While in a weapon, the Caligrost can still perceive the world around it normally, but interactions are limited to telepathy. The weapon can be wielded normally, and the Caligrosto can even enhance it (detailed below). If the weapon strikes a creature that is capable of wielding it (regardless of size), the Caligrosto can attempt to escape its wielder's grasp and use its Fiendish Shade ability to fight on its own. The wielder can resist this with a Charisma-based will save, or the Caligrosto can attempt to convince them to just allow it. (Presumably this wouldn't be an issue in a party of allied PCs.)

The Fiendish Shade ability allows the Caligrosto to create a phantom image depicting a fiendish version of the last creature its possessed weapon damaged, wielding the weapon. The creature must be capable of wielding the weapon (though size is ignored - and proficiency is not mentioned either way), and the image is always medium-sized regardless of the creature it depicts. The Caligrosto gains a +2 insight bonus to attacks and weapon damage against the creature it currently has the shape of. Its Reflective DR also becomes active, redirecting any slashing damage it absorbs to the actual creature in question. (Damage ignored by way of incorporeality is explicitly excluded from this.)

The Shade effectively becomes the Caligrosto's new "body", though it remains incorporeal. The weapon of course remains solid, and thus subject to normal armor. It also can't be carried through solid objects, leading to the average Caligrosto being loathe to walk through walls except in dire situations. Abandoning a weapon also means abandoning its current Fiendish Shade.

A Caligrosto can Infuse a magical weapon it possesses with the Keen property. When it reaches 14 HD, it can add Wounding, and it gets Vorpal at 20 HD. This stacks with any other magical properties the weapon already has. The Caligrosto is also treated as being proficient with and having Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with the weapon it possesses. At 12 HD, it gains Greater Weapon Focus, and at 18 HD it gains Greater Weapon Specialization. Instead of its non-existent Strength, the Caligrosto uses Dexterity for attack rolls and Charisma for damage with the weapon.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

This seems pretty good.

[Morphic tide]

Keen's +1, Wounding's +2, and Vorpal's +5, so that's an extra +8 in qualities. Two initial Bonus Feats with another two at higher HD, even if they're just the default Weapon Focus chain, is pretty good. Is a truly absurdly straightforward choice for Fiend of Possession if they stack, because that'll give a floating +6 to mean you can end up with a total of +24 worth of qualities, if you have a +10 weapon.

I'd suggest LA +2, making Vorpal come with entering Epic rather than the capstone. If you want to actually use the Incorporeality, about the only good option is Psychic Warrior or War Mind for Call Weapon, and ten levels, even with all these bonuses, is leaving you with some enduring downsides, even as it just barely lets you cap off War Mind. It's also a decent comparison because the way weapon-based builds with those Powers work is the very same "stack loads of bonuses on the weapon" scheme this wants to go with, and indeed stacks well with.

Has an utterly absurd amount of durability and quite nasty in-your-face damage, but doesn't have the room to actively do a whole lot other than blender things and be where it shouldn't without resorting to abominations like Ur-Priest.

Oh, also the Con bonus is +8, not +18. Very big difference there.