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2021-06-12, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
I see why you'd think that, but you're wrong. The whole reason CR and ECL are separate numbers is that most abilities are more useful for a PC than a monster or vise versa. Incorporeality isn't useless for a monster in combat, for instance, but it's far more potent for a PC. Alter Appearance might let the lyrist get the drop on the party, but it's otherwise useless for monsters; however, a PC will find it quite useful if there's any kind of social or intrigue challenges in the campaign. The spectral lyrist's bardic music requires that it not do anything else and breaks if someone takes aggressive action towards the target—this makes it hard to use in combat, but clever PCs can find plenty of uses for it regardless.
The Spectral Lyrist is practically built out of abilities that are more useful for PCs than monsters. If its ECL wasn't higher than its CR, something would be dreadfully wrong.
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2021-06-12, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
I mean being a face isn't much help for a monster, but there isn't that much else this thing can pull besides incorporeality(which other monsters have cheaper) and a disguise. No the touch doesn't count, the DC's not worth the investment especially if the DM decides to randomly shut you down.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-06-12, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
As mentioned whenever someone brings up "Freedom of Movement exists" in response to a grapple-focused monster, this should not be considered relevant to a creature's LA. If the DM is constantly using things that no-sell you, it's an issue (and that kind of DM probably wouldn't let you use these threads' ratings anyway). If it's just an occasional thing, it should be fine.
Kaedanis Pyran, tai faernae.
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2021-06-12, 08:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
On a side-note, the touch has an inherent drawback in that it is most effective at shutting down mooks with low Charisma, but those same mooks usually have a high Fort save.
It would be quite effective against Sorcerers, Warmages, Dread Necros and the like, that rely on Charisma for their highest level spells and spell save DCs, but also generally have a bad Fort save bonus.
Remind me, does sneak attack damage get added to ability damage, or is it just converted to negative energy damage?My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
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2021-06-12, 10:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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2021-06-13, 04:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
Kaedanis Pyran, tai faernae.
The LA Assignment Threads: Attempting to Make Monsters Playable Since 2016
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2021-06-13, 04:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! One deadly attack is all it takes!
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Searchable spreadsheet of 3.5 monsters by abilities, now with all online monsters
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2021-06-13, 05:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
Also it's only 1/round(two with Haste) and that's assuming your target fails the save which is... not guaranteed. You might be better off just using a Necrotic Focus Ghost Touch weapon at that point, assuming you go with that.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-06-13, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
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2021-06-13, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
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2021-06-14, 09:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
This can get a single 9th level spell by 19 if it takes an accelerated casting PRC isn't much of an argument in favor of giving this thing positive LA.
My main issue with spectral lyrist is that you really aren't getting much and what you are getting isn't very good. Charisma Drain once the asterisk is added isn't great, most monsters and mooks you encounter will have high fort saves or are straight up immune due to type and things like rogues and arcane casters which have lower fort saves are more rare as encounters and often have higher cha making them harder targets to take on. To be honest if the Charisma Drain had a Will Save instead I think this would be +1, however, it being a fort save and getting slammed with an asterisk really tanks it.
Side note are we meaning asterisk to remove the entire ability, just remove the cha bonus, cap the cha/hp bonus, or remove both cha and hp bonus?
It makes the spectral lyrist very hard to place for power level, in a heavy murder hobo focused game spectral lyrist is a very bad choice and would make for a -0 choice, in a more standard game that has a mix of combat and non combat encounters I think this would be low end +0, and in a game that is hyper focused on intrigue and noncombat this would be probably close to +1. Altogether, getting fascinate and suggestion out of a mock bardic music ability, incorporeality undead traits, Alter Appearance, a good skill list (hide, move silently, and UMD would make it great), and decent ability bonuses I think it skirts by at +0* LA.
Originally Posted by Thurbane
I actually rather like both PRCs they are quite fun especially in Gestalt games I have used Warchanter in a low magic game with a spelless Harmonious Knight Paladin which was a lot of fun. Though Warrior Skald really should have better HD d6 is hard to swallow also both should have gotten umd...
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2021-06-14, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
Just the charisma bonus.
We can't really assume any particular kind of game (and especially giving ratings like "+X if you're murderhobo-ing, +Y if your game has a lot of intrigue and low combat", etc are just right out). We try to give general ratings here. A monster that is combat-focused doesn't get a higher rating than something that is "just" really good at talking or sneaking.Last edited by Debatra; 2021-11-28 at 01:06 AM.
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2021-06-14, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
Isn't the only Face-focused monster we've rated the Succubus? Which, y'know, still had Outsider HD as well as good stats?
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-06-14, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
Ok that makes it a bit easier to swallow, I know with shambling mound we talked about capping its ability vs just straight outright removing it.
Yep that is kind of my point, that things seem to balance out over all, in some games its abilities are a huge boon and in others it will flounder but over all I think it has enough going on to skirt by as a +0* LA. It is similar for a lot of the aquatic monsters, they often deserve a 'higher LA' in aquatic games or are down right unplayable in nonaquatic games until you have resources to overcome their issues.
Technically the Erinyes too but it has more combat focused abilities. The Succubus having at will ethereal jaunt and 6 rhd actually makes it an interesting comparison point as ethereal jaunt does give similar benefits to Incorporeal without some of the downsides, also its range of at will spells in and of themselves make it a lot more useful than spectral lyrist. Comparing the two side by side the Succubus is dramatically more powerful so I can't see spectral lyrist getting +1 much less +2 LA. I think incorporeal, undead, and ability scores are enough for 3-4 RHD, so the question really is are Alter Appearance, Bardic Music, and charisma drain worth 2-3 rhd?
I think the closest comparison point I can think of is a necropolitan changeling Dread Necromancer 5, necropolitan changeling Bard 5, maybe necropolitan changeling Dread Necromancer 4/Bard 1, or necropolitan changeling Dread Necromancer 1/Bard 4 all of these comparison points would be high tier 3 low tier 2. Honestly, I don't see spectral lyrist being as useful as any of these in or outside of combat and it is going to struggle being competitive with these builds. If it weren't for its bardic music ability allowing it to jump right into some decent prcs I would say it is -0. As is like I have said before it just barely hits that +0* mark, you aren't outcompeting anyone at a similar level and in fact you are often probably going to feel slightly useless, that sounds like it is in tier 4 or 5 which is just enough to be +0...Last edited by liquidformat; 2021-06-14 at 10:37 AM.
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2021-06-14, 10:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
I mean, I don't really agree with +0 but I can stomach it easier than the weird votes like +2. Because like no, this is not worth 8 levels' worth of progress and your Constitution score.
Don't really feel qualified to vote for a lot of these things though. Haven't since we started this book.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-06-14, 11:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
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2021-06-14, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
Yeah being able to be a face is valid(whether I think the Spectral Lyrist's are worth it is another question, but it's still a plus), but when's the last random encounter where a monster used a social skill besides Bluff(for feinting) or Intimidate? Heck, how many people have had one at all?
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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2021-06-14, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-06-14, 03:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
The Visilight had a similar Cha draining/boost issues, although it's triggered on a grapple, from memory.
My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
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2021-06-14, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
Screaming defiance with the last breath
It would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.
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Song, Sword, and Sorcery: my 5E homebrew half-caster bard (Version 2.0!)
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2021-06-14, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
Torn-City - Massively multiplayer online browser based crime RPG
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2021-06-14, 06:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-06-14, 10:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2021-06-15, 04:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
Screaming defiance with the last breath
It would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.
My judgments and medals!
The Iron Chef Optimization spreadsheet!
Song, Sword, and Sorcery: my 5E homebrew half-caster bard (Version 2.0!)
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2021-06-16, 07:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
+2* - Troacctid, Morphic tide
+1* - Efrate
+0* - Thurbane, Temotei, Beni-Kujaku, liquidformat
-0* - Remuko
I'm not gonna call it quite yet, but probably by this evening.Kaedanis Pyran, tai faernae.
The LA Assignment Threads: Attempting to Make Monsters Playable Since 2016
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2021-06-16, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
Uh... how do we weigh votes again? By average it looks like it'd come out as a +1 but that doesn't really seem representative...
Oh, I guess +0* would work, since incorporeality is that strong and there are some bard PrCs that this thing can use.Last edited by danielxcutter; 2021-06-16 at 10:19 AM.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
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2021-06-16, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
I think I'd play that as is. LA +0*.
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2021-06-16, 05:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! One deadly attack is all it takes!
Nice find! Have a cookie!
Searchable spreadsheet of 3.5 monsters by abilities, now with all online monsters
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2021-06-16, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
Well, the averages usually only matter if there's no clear winner in the votes, and +0* has just pulled far enough away for that to not be an issue. Next on the docket is the somewhat-complex Swarm Shifter template.
Kaedanis Pyran, tai faernae.
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2021-06-16, 09:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never
Swarm-Shifter
A Swarm-Shifter Mummy
Acquired or Inherited: Acquired
Applied To: Any corporeal Undead with an Intelligence score
Size & Type: Gains the Shapechanger subtype, and the Swarm subtype (and possible size change) when in Swarm form.
Space/Reach: Unchanged in normal form, 10'/0' in Swarm form
Hit Dice: Unchanged
Speed: Unchanged in normal form
Ability Scores: Unchanged in normal form, Swarm form changes Str and Dex based on size (see table 4-2, MMI, pg 291), with a minimum Str of 1.
Armor Class: Unchanged in normal form, Swarm form changes Natural Armor based on size (see table 4-2, MMI, pg 291).
Skills: Unchanged in normal form, +10 to Disguise in various circumstances based on form. (In general, assume the bonus applies to attempts to look normal or inanimate.)
CR: +1, or +2 if applied multiple times (regardless of how many).
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +1, or +2 if applied multiple times (regardless of how many).
You read that right, we have another template that can be acquired multiple times on the same creature. And this one gives eleven different alternate forms that will likely need to be rated individually. Or maybe we'll get lucky and they'll all be worth the same LA.
So what do all the forms have in common? Well, it can Shift at will. Shifting forms heals it for 1 HP per HD, just like most alternate forms do. If it has multiple forms, it can shift straight from one to another. While shifting is a Supernatural ability, maintaining the forms actually isn't. An AMF won't change a Swarm-Shifter back to normal, and True Seeing reveals all of the creature's forms. If the swarm would take enough damage to disperse it, the Shifter returns to its normal form and is destroyed (unless it's an Undead with specific destruction rules, like a Vampire or Lich).
While in a Swarm form, the Shifter gains the Hive Mind special quality, giving it immunity to anything that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells) except things that "command, control, turn, rebuke, bolster, or destroy undead specifically". The ability to speak is lost in Swarm form.
Swarm damage is given in a table on page 125 of Libris Mortis, and is based on the base creature's HD. Their Distraction ability is the same as other swarms. I'm not going to copy/paste normal swarm things like immunity to weapon damage eleven times, so just know your swarm rules. Unless otherwise noted, Distraction DCs are Constitution-based and other DCs are Charisma-based. Poisons and Diseases are of course delivered via the Swarm attack.
Spoiler: Swarm Forms
Bat Swarm
Size: Diminutive
Speed: 5', Fly 40' (Good)
Special Attacks: Wounding - Living creatures damaged by the swarm bleed for one damage per round until they receive a DC10 Heal check or any form of magical healing.
Special Qualities: Blindsense 20', based on sound.
Beetle Swarm
Size: Diminutive
Speed: 30', Burrow 20', Fly 10' (Poor)
Special Attacks: N/A
Special Qualities: Tremorsense 60'
Centipede Swarm
Size: Diminutive
Speed: 20', Climb 20'
Special Attacks: Poison, 1d4 Dex/1d4 Dex
Special Qualities: N/A
Fly Swarm
Size: Fine
Speed: Fly 40' (Perfect)
Special Attacks: Disease, Red Ache, 1d3 Days Inc, 1d8 Dex
Special Qualities: N/A
Leech Swarm
Size: Diminutive (also gains Aquatic subtype)
Speed: 5', Swim 30'
Special Attacks: Wounding (same as bats above)
Special Qualities: Tremorsense 30', also works in water
Maggot (or Worm) Swarm
Size: Fine
Speed: 20'
Special Attacks: Extended Nausea - Nausea from Distraction lasts 2d4 rounds
Special Qualities: N/A
Body Part Swarm
...No, really. A swarm of misc body parts. Bones, organs, flesh, etc.
Size: Tiny
Speed: 20', Fly 20' (Poor)
Special Attacks: Fear - creatures damaged by the Swarm must make a will save or be Frightened for 1d4 rounds. This does not have the usual 24-hour immunity clause. Parts - Swarm attack does an additional 1d6 damage.
Special Qualities: N/A
Rat Swarm
Size: Tiny
Speed: 15', Climb 15'
Special Attacks: Disease - Filth Fever, 1d3 day Inc, 1d3 Dex and Con
Special Qualities: Scent
Sand (or Tomb Dust or Grave Dirt) Swarm
Size: Fine
Speed: Fly 60' (Perfect)
Special Attacks: N/A
Special Qualities: N/A
Scorpion Swarm
Size: Diminutive
Speed: 20'
Special Attacks: Poison - 1d2 Con/1d2 Con
Special Qualities: Tremorsense 60'
Spider Swarm
Size: Diminutive
Speed: 20', Climb 20'
Special Attacks: Poison - 1d3 Str/1d3 Str
Special Qualities: Tremorsense 60'
Last edited by Debatra; 2021-06-24 at 01:04 AM.
Kaedanis Pyran, tai faernae.
The LA Assignment Threads: Attempting to Make Monsters Playable Since 2016
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