The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

[danielxcutter]

Does non-native casting/manifesting still count as a special attack? Because that drastically reduces the viability of this template otherwise.

[InvisibleBison]

Does non-native casting/manifesting still count as a special attack? Because that drastically reduces the viability of this template otherwise.

Non-native casting and manifesting are both listed in the special attacks entry.

[liquidformat]

A bunch of people are missing that being in swarm form costs you all Special Attacks of the base form.

That means no spells, no psionics, no Eldritch Blasts, maybe no incarnum (but you've probably lost all your chakras except Totem and Soul anyway¹)... on top of the "no normal attacks" rule you already had.

Technically, this wouldn't apply to class features you got after acquiring the template, though.


1. Unless you're a body part swarm, I guess. Which is kind of hilarious.

I think this depends how you define 'special attacks of the base creature', I take that to mean special attacks granted to you by your race and not things granted to you by your class levels.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Does non-native casting/manifesting still count as a special attack? Because that drastically reduces the viability of this template otherwise.

Technically, it's only the base creature's casting/manifesting that are lost. Any non-native Special Attacks (including casting and psionics) that you acquire after the template are fair game for using in swarm form. So a Necropolitan Wizard 3 that became a Swarm Shifter and kept taking Wizard levels would (presumably) only lose 4 0th level, 2 1st level, and 1 2nd level spell slots when in swarm form... if the DM is generous.

EDIT: Hmm, Scout might be a good martial class for these guys, actually. Takes advantage of the mobility, durability, and sensory options, and they automatically hit anyone standing in the 4 squares they occupy at the end of their turn for easy Skirmish damage. They even get Evasion to help compensate for the weakness to AOE.

[Tzardok]

Yeah, that sounds like something I would ignore. I mean, I see how the RAW would work out that way, but it doesn't make sense to me to do it like that.

[Troacctid]

Since it references alter self, it should be treated as a polymorph effect, using the default rules for the subschool except where noted. That would indeed remove spellcasting and manifesting.

[Thurbane]

I'll be honest, these templates confuse me a bit, and I don't have a lot of spare time right now.

After a quick glance, and based on what others have said, I'm voting +1 for first application, and +2 (total) for more than one application.

[emulord]

WoTC got it right on this one. +1 for first, +2 for any/all.
If being a swarm is a downside you can always shift back to normal anyway.

Having 1 additional type of movement among {burrow, swim, fly} isnt worth another +1, but having all 3 is. Its possible to take something suboptimal like rat swarm but we won't be assuming that. Also the fear / nasuea is some potent debuffs potentially. I'm not sure what classes are best for this, but personally I'd take some classes with auras like Marshall so that I can be a debuff/buff presence on the field that is hard to actually damage.

[Efrate]

I think folks are undervaluing how powerful swarms are vs. anything without magical aoe. You do not HAVE to use abilities. Just swarm them. Might take a while, but most things will just die. You just have to sit on them, figuratively.

Most things lack any ability to interact with you in a meaningful way.

You can always just fly away, shift a few times to heal, and then come back and win an attrition war. Assuming you can get your attacks to count as magic (probably by getting dr x/magic), I am going to guess you can no sell over 50 per cent of printed monsters.

[Troacctid]

I think folks are undervaluing how powerful swarms are vs. anything without magical aoe. You do not HAVE to use abilities. Just swarm them. Might take a while, but most things will just die. You just have to sit on them, figuratively.

Most things lack any ability to interact with you in a meaningful way.

You can always just fly away, shift a few times to heal, and then come back and win an attrition war. Assuming you can get your attacks to count as magic (probably by getting dr x/magic), I am going to guess you can no sell over 50 per cent of printed monsters.

But that would require the whole party to be swarm-shifters, otherwise it doesn't matter if you can no-sell them, since they'll just attack someone else.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Changing my vote to +2 for the first application, and another +1 (+3 total) if you have more than one swarm form.

I do still think the defenses of a swarm are worth at least +2, even with the loss in offensive ability.

Something like Necropolitan Wild Shape Ranger 2 into Swarm Shifter, into a Swift Hunter build. You don't lose anything from Ranger (Troll shows that Favored Enemy is a Special Quality, not a Special Attack), and since Skirmish is acquired after Swarm Shifter you get to keep it in swarm form and it applies to your swarm attack. You're basically immune to everything (especially once you get Evasion) and can double move/run and attack up to 4 creatures for full Improved Skirmish damage. If you pick Undead Bat Swarm (or Leech Swarm in an aquatic campaign) you've also gotten flight/swim and blindsight/tremorsense out of the deal.

[liquidformat]

I think folks are undervaluing how powerful swarms are vs. anything without magical aoe. You do not HAVE to use abilities. Just swarm them. Might take a while, but most things will just die. You just have to sit on them, figuratively.

Most things lack any ability to interact with you in a meaningful way.

You can always just fly away, shift a few times to heal, and then come back and win an attrition war. Assuming you can get your attacks to count as magic (probably by getting dr x/magic), I am going to guess you can no sell over 50 per cent of printed monsters.

I mean you get gust at level 5 and it shuts down swarms pretty quickly... But yes swarm is powerful against non casters...

[Troacctid]

Changing my vote to +2 for the first application, and another +1 (+3 total) if you have more than one swarm form.

I do still think the defenses of a swarm are worth at least +2, even with the loss in offensive ability.

Something like Necropolitan Wild Shape Ranger 2 into Swarm Shifter, into a Swift Hunter build. You don't lose anything from Ranger (Troll shows that Favored Enemy is a Special Quality, not a Special Attack), and since Skirmish is acquired after Swarm Shifter you get to keep it in swarm form and it applies to your swarm attack. You're basically immune to everything (especially once you get Evasion) and can double move/run and attack up to 4 creatures for full Improved Skirmish damage. If you pick Undead Bat Swarm (or Leech Swarm in an aquatic campaign) you've also gotten flight/swim and blindsight/tremorsense out of the deal.

Even if you kept your skirmish/sneak attack dice, which you don't, you can't deal precision damage with a swarm attack because it isn't actually an attack—it's just automatic damage.

[danielxcutter]

I… guess it’s not useless even if you lose everything, but it mostly seems to be utility or a panic button rather than actually good for combat.

[liquidformat]

I'm not quite sure how anyone can say swarm shifter looses all special attacks period in swarm form and still think this is worth more than +1. To be honest if that is how we are interpreting the swarm form I lean towards +0...

[danielxcutter]

I mean it’s better than nothing so that’s a +1. The question is whether it’s worth any more(which I have doubts about).

[liquidformat]

The way I see it, if it allows class based abilities to still work it is a high +1 maybe even +2; if it doesn't then it is bottom of the barrel +1. You are pretty much taking yourself out of a fight so you don't die by going swarm form and there are still a number of abilities that are quite nasty against you, if all you can do is passively deal damage, can't run but everyone else can you are pretty useless and can just be avoided.

No one on the extra forms should be worth extra LA side have yet to give any reason why, seems like a gut response and I believe it is an unfounded one. Having a second form does almost nothing, you might deal damage slightly differently, or get an added movement form but that is about it not worth another LA...

[Beni-Kujaku]

The way I see it, if it allows class based abilities to still work it is a high +1 maybe even +2; if it doesn't then it is bottom of the barrel +1. You are pretty much taking yourself out of a fight so you don't die by going swarm form and there are still a number of abilities that are quite nasty against you, if all you can do is passively deal damage, can't run but everyone else can you are pretty useless and can just be avoided.

No one on the extra forms should be worth extra LA side have yet to give any reason why, seems like a gut response and I believe it is an unfounded one. Having a second form does almost nothing, you might deal damage slightly differently, or get an added movement form but that is about it not worth another LA...

WotC agrees with you. In pure combat on a beatstick/generic spellcaster like their sample, it's CR +1. However, this template is much better outside of combat, or as a last resort in combat, than it is to fight in. If you keep your manifesting, then it is fantastic to fight in, but even if it doesn't, it gives a lot of out-of-combat things. Enough for +2? I don't think so. But I wouldn't say bottom of the barrel. I keep my +2 vote if you keep your class abilities, but I go down to LA +1 of not.

[Troacctid]

No one on the extra forms should be worth extra LA side have yet to give any reason why, seems like a gut response and I believe it is an unfounded one. Having a second form does almost nothing, you might deal damage slightly differently, or get an added movement form but that is about it not worth another LA...

If you're already on the high side of +1 pushing +2, the extra versatility of going from one option to all the options should easily be enough to bump you up over the hill, IMO. That's why divine minions of Set are +2 while divine minions of Sobek are only +1 (which, btw, is also an easy canon comparison point in favor of +1 for one/+2 for all).

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Even if you kept your skirmish/sneak attack dice, which you don't, you can't deal precision damage with a swarm attack because it isn't actually an attack—it's just automatic damage.

The RAW is pretty unambiguous. You only lose the Special Attacks of the "base creature", i.e., the creature before the application of the template. That's probably not RAI, though; I can definitely see a DM expanding that to all Special Attacks.

I think a Swarm Attack definitely qualifies for Skirmish, though. Skirmish only requires an attack, not an attack roll, and (in addition to having "attack" in the name), a Swarm Attack is clearly considered an attack by the monster entries, being compared to "standard melee attacks", listed in the Attack and Full Attack of the statblocks, and most convincingly:

Swarm Attack:
...
A swarm's attacks are nonmagical, unless the swarm's description states otherwise. Damage reduction sufficient to reduce a swarm attack's damage to 0, being incorporeal, and other special abilities usually give a creature immunity (or at least resistance) to damage from a swarm.

(emphasis mine)

[liquidformat]

If you're already on the high side of +1 pushing +2, the extra versatility of going from one option to all the options should easily be enough to bump you up over the hill, IMO. That's why divine minions of Set are +2 while divine minions of Sobek are only +1 (which, btw, is also an easy canon comparison point in favor of +1 for one/+2 for all).

Its only a high plus one if swarm is able to keep casting and other class abilities and you are claiming it doesn't and yet supporting increasing the LA with extra forms, seems like its one or the other...

[Troacctid]

The RAW is pretty unambiguous. You only lose the Special Attacks of the "base creature", i.e., the creature before the application of the template. That's probably not RAI, though; I can definitely see a DM expanding that to all Special Attacks.

Since it references alter self, it's a polymorph effect, and that means:

In all other ways, the target's normal game statistics are effectively replaced by those of the new form. The target loses all of the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features (even if the new form would normally be able to use these class features).

...unless it explicitly states otherwise. Which, AFAICT, it doesn't.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Since it references alter self, it's a polymorph effect, and that means:

...unless it explicitly states otherwise. Which, AFAICT, it doesn't.

Hmm... okay, that makes sense, but the reference to alter self is only in regards to what happens to equipment.

As with the alter self spell, the base creature's items are absorbed into the swarm form and provide no benefit.

The ability as a whole is never compared to the spell, so it seems excessive to declare that the ability is a polymorph effect (and thus subject to those rules).

[Debatra]

+1/+0 - liquidformat, danielxcutter
+2/+0 - Efrate
+2/+1/+0 - PoeticallyPsyco, Beni-Kujaku, Tzardok
+1/+1/+0 - Troacctid, remetagross, Thurbane, emulord

I think I got that right, though some of the votes were slightly hard to parse between things like "+X for the first form, an additional +Y for the second, +0 for the rest", or "+X for the first, +Y total for the second, +0 for the rest", and etc.

Hard disagree here. If somone chooses to get this template, or if their DM gives it to them, then they are going to choose what they think is the strongest option. Level adjustment should reflect the fact that people can take the dust form on a necropolitan psion, not that they may take the rat form on a fighter. Especially if we're to use these in an optimization challenge, we should aim for at least a medium level of optimization.

If you think one of the forms is that far and away better than the others, feel free to rate that specific form separately and leave a general one for the rest.

---

Since the conversation has died, I'll give it one last day for people to correct me if I goofed on something before calling it.

[Tzardok]

I think I'm going to change my vote to +2/+1/+0.

[Remuko]

Im formally abstaining from rating this cuz its way too hard to wrap my head around lol

[danielxcutter]

What are those separate votes for again?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

What are those separate votes for again?

Fist swarm form/ second swarm form/ all other swarm forms.

[danielxcutter]

Oh. Okay, net +1 for me then. It’s far from useless but I’m under the impression you can’t do much in swarm form.

[liquidformat]

Oh. Okay, net +1 for me then. It’s far from useless but I’m under the impression you can’t do much in swarm form.

And adding extra forms isn't giving you much compared to the first form...