The LA Assignment Thread XI: Better LA'd Than Never

[remetagross]

Having them shaft any offensive abilities including psionics et al. hurts them quite a lot, though I still stand by my vote: it turns them from a strong LA +1 to a weak one.

[liquidformat]

Having them shaft any offensive abilities including psionics et al. hurts them quite a lot, though I still stand by my vote: it turns them from a strong LA +1 to a weak one.

Even for multiple forms? I still ask why are multiple forms worth more LA you are getting almost nothing.

[remetagross]

Well now it's more on the verge, but I'll argue that's because some of the forms offer quite different abilities. Sand gives a great deal of airborne maneuverability, leeches can move underwater (useful trick to play as a vampire who gets immersed in a river to get destroyed), bats give you blindsense, maggots nauseate the foe for 2d4 rounds (!), members have an uncapped fear effect...

[Troacctid]

Yeah, there's a reason why troll shape isn't as popular as polymorph, why totem druids get wild shape so much earlier than normal druids. Shapeshifting into just one form is usually a lot less powerful than shapeshifting into a wide variety of forms. And frankly, one swarm form plus unlimited out-of-combat healing is already a pretty solid, interesting +1.

I still support +1/+1/+0. I guess I could be convinced of +1/+0/+1, but +1/+0/+0 is out of the question IMO.

[liquidformat]

Well now it's more on the verge, but I'll argue that's because some of the forms offer quite different abilities. Sand gives a great deal of airborne maneuverability, leeches can move underwater (useful trick to play as a vampire who gets immersed in a river to get destroyed), bats give you blindsense, maggots nauseate the foe for 2d4 rounds (!), members have an uncapped fear effect...

At the same time I don't really see much of a power difference between say Necropoliton wild shape ranger 6/master of flies 3 and Necropoliton Swarm Shifter Ranger 9. I think level 9 is where the swarm shifter and WS ranger balance out; swarm shaper has healing from swarm shifter and a few more EX abilities while in swarm form but the WS ranger has more versatility and can grab feats like Exalted Wild Shape, Frozen Wild Shape, and Assume Supernatural Ability. Granted up until level 9 I think Swarm Shifter has a clear advantage so the +1 LA makes sense.

If we want to compare something people have been suggesting lets look at Necropoliton Swarm Shifter psion to Necropoliton City Shape Druid, the swarm shifter is clearly ahead of the druid until level 8 when the druid picks up enhanced wild shape and Sandform and given the fact that it can cast while in any shapes it is balanced out and after this level the druid clearly starts pulling ahead depending on how its using the spells. By level 12 when druid gets swarm form the druid has a clear overarching power advantage to swarm shifter psion because of the simple fact swarm shifting is only useful as a panic button on the psion whereas the druid can stay in swarm form all day blasting spells or change into something else that is more suitable.

In either case I am not seeing any jump in swam shifter's power level due to having access to extra forms.

[Metastachydium]

At the same time I don't really see much of a power difference between say Necropoliton wild shape ranger 6/master of flies 3 and Necropoliton Swarm Shifter Ranger 9. I think level 9 is where the swarm shifter and WS ranger balance out; swarm shaper has healing from swarm shifter and a few more EX abilities while in swarm form but the WS ranger has more versatility and can grab feats like Exalted Wild Shape, Frozen Wild Shape, and Assume Supernatural Ability.

And what's stopping a swarm shifter from taking wild shape ranger levels?

[liquidformat]

And what's stopping a swarm shifter from taking wild shape ranger levels?

Nothing I don't think it really makes a difference in the comparison. The only difference is the wild shape ranger/MoF utilizes wild shape when taking swarm form and the swarm shifter doesn't, so for example couldn't leverage wild feats in swarm form.

On a side note Warshaper is rather amusing for a swarm shifter, they can gain claw attacks and such in swarm form

I actually would probably go warforged WS ranger/Master of Flies over necropoliton swarm shifter. After somewhere between level 5 to 8 swarm form of the shifter is only useful as a panic button, out of combat healing, and maybe scouting. In combat at that point you aren't making a meaningful contribution when you swarm form, sure you are hard to kill (unless there is a caster...) but you are easily ignorable.

[Debatra]

And the winner is +1/+1/+0. Tomb Mote coming up.

[Debatra]

Tomb Mote

Size & Type: Tiny Undead
Space/Reach: 2.5'/0'
HD: 3
Speed: 20', Swim 20'
Ability Scores: Str -2, Dex +6, Con -, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +4 - Net +10, one penalty
Natural Armor: 3
Natural Weapons: One Primary Bite (1d4 plus disease)
Skill List: Hide, Move Silently
Body Shape: ("vaguely") Humanoid
Speech (Languages): No (understands Common and Abyssal)
CR: 2
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +2

So this is apparently what we can do with the loose leftover bits when we're done reanimating each individual piece of a corpse. "animated accumulations of tomb litter - shards of bone, lone teeth, matted hair, bits of shattered tombstone, and grave dirt.")

DR 2/cold iron OR magic is just as irrelevant as any other DR/magic, as are most diseases. 1d3 days and a Charisma-based Fortitude save to avoid 1d6 Str damage.

That said though, the Tomb Mote also has supernatural Quickness, getting an extra Standard or Move action each round. Not a lot of creatures can inherently mess with the action economy. We gave Chokers +2 (and they also have 3 RHD), but those also had a bit more going for them.

[danielxcutter]

I'm not a fan of non-template undead, I think I've made that fairly clear, but an extra standard or move action by default is pretty awesome. Cleric shouldn't be too hard, actually.

[Troacctid]

I actually think it has a pretty similar amount of things going for it compared to the choker, tbh. It's weaker offensively, but stronger defensively with immunities and higher AC, and the ability scores are in different places, but with a higher net bonus. Honestly, I'm not sure which one is better—but if I had to pick one, I think the tomb mote's ability scores give it more directions it can run in, even though its RHD are a bit worse.

In my opinion, what's good for the choker is good for the tomb mote. I would give them the same LA, which I guess here means +2.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Let's be honest, except Quickness, there's really nothing here. Undead immunities are good, but that mostly means that you will be a subpar manifester since you can't Concentrate effectively, and you'll be even more squishy, since your class HD don't change to d12.
Contrary to the choker, this one is quite clearly a spellcaster (most probably a bard, because you're both Charisma-centered and because you can't speak, so being able to play music instead is a good point). Denying it 6th level spells seems an acceptable price to being able to act twice in a round. I agree with Troacctid on LA+2 for the Tomb Mote.

[Tzardok]

Of course you can concentrate. The description of the undead type says that undead add their Cha. Mod to their concentration rolls instead of their non-existant Con. Mod.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Of course you can concentrate. The description of the undead type says that undead add their Cha. Mod to their concentration rolls instead of their non-existant Con. Mod.

Oh, perfect! Then you can ardent or wilder too. Still, +2 seems fine.

[danielxcutter]

Doesn't the choker still have a bit more going on for it?

[Troacctid]

Doesn't the choker still have a bit more going on for it?

Like what?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Doesn't the choker still have a bit more going on for it?

If you're going to spellcast, Improved Grab/Constrict is really not that useful, and I would gladly trade 8 Str, 10ft reach and 1 natural armor for 6 Int and 8 Cha.

[danielxcutter]

Well the Choker has aberration support and a Con score, but fair enough.

[remetagross]

LA +2 seems fair. Tiny size severly hampers going every direction other than casting, and going the caster route makes that extra standard action each turn that more valuable. Like, a Warlock that pops two invocations per turn (so as not to have the extra action amount to a faster depleted power supply).

[Troacctid]

Undead type has way more support than aberration type. All the aberration stuff is either for specific aberrations like beholders or aboleths, or for non-aberrations who want to turn into aberrations. Lifesense alone is probably better than every aberration-only feat combined, tbh.

[Efrate]

+2. Probably needs to invest in some pearls of speech but a ton of upsides.

[liquidformat]

positives: humanoid enough to be ok with normal armor and manipulating objects, undead traits, tiny, good ability bonuses for 3 rhd, and quickness
negatives: 3 rhd, no con mod, horrible HD

the only big concern I have is going wilder or even worse psion you are going to be a glass canon, I don't care what you say getting d6 or d4 hp each round is a great recipe to be one shotted by everything.

That aside I think this is reasonably a +2 LA, everything you get ignoring quickness already comfortably sits in +1 territory and quickness in and of itself is worth a +1 too so no problem here with +2 la.

[H_H_F_F]

The choker has more going for it, but tiny size and undead traits are useful enough to a caster-type to make this a valid choice. 3 HD and +2 LA is a bit rough early on, but seems overall fair. I could see +1 - but I could see that for the choker, too.

I'm currently voting for LA +2, though I'm open to discussion.

[Rawrawrawr]

To be honest, I'm not sure a creature with Quickness should have 9th-level spells or maneuvers. This would put the choker's LA at +2, which sounds about right to me. A choker in itself may be a little underpowered at that LA, but the potential reward at higher levels is so great that anything below +2 would make chokers a no-brainer, which I want to avoid

As a quick reminder, the reason the Choker got LA +2 was specifically to put it at ECL 5 - I agree with the reasoning, so that puts the Tomb Mote at LA +3 for me.

[H_H_F_F]

As a quick reminder, the reason the Choker got LA +2 was specifically to put it at ECL 5 - I agree with the reasoning, so that puts the Tomb Mote at LA +3 for me.

LA +3 would put the tomb mote at ECL 6. Did you perhaps confuse its HD with its CR, or do you just see the Tomb Mote as around 1 LA stronger than the choker?

[liquidformat]

As a quick reminder, the reason the Choker got LA +2 was specifically to put it at ECL 5 - I agree with the reasoning, so that puts the Tomb Mote at LA +3 for me.

I am not seeing an argument that Mote is stronger than Choker, could you point out what you're seeing?

[Debatra]

+2 - Troacctid, Beni-Kujaku, remetagross, Efrate, liquidformat, H_H_F_F
+3 - Rawrawrawr

Not going to officially call it yet, mainly because I'm a bit busy to jump into the next creature. Probably later today/tonight if nobody has anything else to say about it.

[Bavarian itP]

I am not seeing an argument that Mote is stronger than Choker, could you point out what you're seeing?

The choker LA was specifically chosen because inevitability found that a creature with quickness should not get 9th level spells or maneuvers. According to the same logic ... the mote should also be +2 (not a vote) ... now I'm confused about Rawrawrawr's point, too.

[Thurbane]

Late to the party and rushed for time, but I'm voting LA +2, and I may do a detailed breakdown if I get a chance.

Extra actions are huge.

[Debatra]

And +2 continues to run away with it. Umbral Creature template coming up.