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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    How will I know if I'm playing WELL, though? If I just follow my instincts or go for what I think is cool, I'm going to fall into the various traps laid in the rules by picking bad options, becoming a liability to the party in the process, and then no one will wanna play with me! And how will I know if I'm a good or bad roleplayer if other people don't TELL me?
    The only people whose opinion matters when it comes to your roleplaying are you and people you play with. Not random people on the Internet. And unless you're actively disrupting the game or making other people uncomfortable, how exactly do you roleplay "wrong", anyway?

    Trap options are a completely separate issue and, as far as I can tell, completely unrelated to the topic at hand. Not multiclassing isn't a trap option and isn't going to make you a liability.
    Last edited by Morty; 2021-06-06 at 06:08 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Ettina View Post
    Trap options don't make you a liability, just less effective than you could be.

    And if someone doesn't want to play with you because you're not min-maxing enough, you're better off not playing with them anyway, because they're *******s who won't be very fun to play with. Most people won't care.
    Except when you’re proposing an incompetent character that is outside the bounds of expectations laid out in session 0. Then you’re the pringus. Just the same as you usually wouldn’t bring Batman to a buddy cop game, bringing the buddy cop to an Avengers game will generally be a bad idea. The table agreed on X, we’re well within our rights to point out an outlier as an outlier, regardless of it being high or low.
    If all rules are suggestions what happens when I pass the save?

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    How will I know if I'm playing WELL, though? If I just follow my instincts or go for what I think is cool, I'm going to fall into the various traps laid in the rules by picking bad options, becoming a liability to the party in the process, and then no one will wanna play with me! And how will I know if I'm a good or bad roleplayer if other people don't TELL me?
    You empirically learn if your playing well or not the same way you learn it in virtually all types of games:

    Trial and error.

    That is, you set your goals and make an honest attempt at reaching them. If you reach them, you're doing well enough, if not, you need to make adjustments and make another attempt.

    You really only need one other person in this process: the one actually running a game for you. The other players and their opinions do not matter as long as that one person is fine with your attempts. If those others players are bothered by the idea of you failing to the point of not wanting to play with you, either the rest of the group has too high of a skill level compared to yours and you should find a group of LESS skilled players willing to do some trial and error with you, or they are try-hards who are so afraid of failure they'd rather follow dubious advice on the internet instead of doing things on their own, if only so they have someone else to blame when things go tits up.

    ---

    As far as multi-classing and dipping shame go, I neither feel nor encounter such, because I near-exlusively play games with either no classes or no multi-classing. (Classes are fine, but only when they're distinctive and few in numbers.)

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    But unlike Pathfinder, where you could take a level of Fighter as a wizard or cleric and still have access to the most powerful spells your class can cast, in SF those spells are specifically tied to their respective class' capstone ability. A technomancer who takes a level of soldier to get heavy armor and better guns will never be able to cast wish. The only class that DOESN'T benefit from dipping into Soldier is...Soldier itself, since you're not multiclassing at all.
    I'm confused here; sounds like they built in reasons for dipping to NOT be the optimal or most desirable strategy for every player of those classes - as they should have.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    On the other hand, I want to remind you that it is okay to have preferences. You are not broken. Even if your character concept requires a complicated single classed build vs a simple multiclass build, it is okay to have an aversion to multiclassing.


    PS: The Soldier dip in Starfinder sounds like an efficient dip, but it does not sound like a thematic dip. If a dip does not match the character concept, then I don't think I would count it as the simpler solution. In 5E many classes could benefit from Fighter 2, but very few characters would benefit from Fighter 2. An aversion to that dip sounds normal to me.
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorthindel View Post
    I feel it is an issue when one of the classes has a considerable roleplay component, but the dip is done purely for mechanical purposes - Warlocks, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, and others, have significant roleplay requirements, that I don't like seeing brushed over in search of a particular level 1 ability.

    I definitely have sympathy where a particular character concept can only be constructed with multiclassing, but I do sometime raise an eyebrow if this is claimed frivolously (no, there is absolutely no character concept that requires you to dip Warlock for Hex Warrior, your concept is not damaged by you having to use Str or Dex to hit instead of your maxxed Cha!).
    So dip something that is compatible with those requirements. Or don't! That's the beauty of it.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    That's what I like about Pathfinder 2E. There multiclassing (or a Dedication, as it's called in that system) can be done by just taking the one feat (the original Dedication feat) but that often gives you the just the basic ability of that class at the lowest level and that level won't go up as you level up, so by the time you're above level 10 it won't do all that much anymore.
    For instance a Wizard Dedication gives you the ability to cast 2 cantrips and makes you trained in spellcasting. But that gives you a level of spellcasting that you won't succeed against the saves of any critter at level 10 or above most of the time.

    So you need to take a few other abilities from the Dedication to make it actually work, especially at higher levels. As you need to take 2 dedication feats, which you take instead of class feats before you can switch to another dedication and you get a class feat at every even level (generally), that's a 6 level commitment before you can switch to something else. So you will most likely not take more than 2 of these dedications and most likely only 1. You also keep getting the non-class feats of your original class, no matter what Dedication you take.

    And it's a lot easier to explain in character. For instance a rogue with wizard dedication is simply a rogue who also studied magic at sometime, but he stays a rogue. If you take just the Dedication, you're a dabbler who learned a few simple tricks at some time and if you invest the time to take more dedication feats, you invest time and energy in becoming better, as you would if you multiclassed evenly in PF1.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorthindel View Post
    I feel it is an issue when one of the classes has a considerable roleplay component, but the dip is done purely for mechanical purposes - Warlocks, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, and others, have significant roleplay requirements, that I don't like seeing brushed over in search of a particular level 1 ability.

    I definitely have sympathy where a particular character concept can only be constructed with multiclassing, but I do sometime raise an eyebrow if this is claimed frivolously (no, there is absolutely no character concept that requires you to dip Warlock for Hex Warrior, your concept is not damaged by you having to use Str or Dex to hit instead of your maxxed Cha!).
    This exactly. I share many of your aversions to multiclassing, Zousha, because I've experienced more than a few power-gamers who derive enjoyment from "breaking" the game's limits, even when it puts them out of line with the rest of the party. I'm not going to claim that playstyle is WRONG (I see the appeal!), just that it doesn't fit at my table.

    That said, multiclassing is a valuable tool in creating interesting characters, whose flavor informs their mechanics and vice versa. I'm working on my own hang-ups and recently started playing a multiclassed monk/ranger to get closer to a "ninja" feel than a pure shadow monk. I suppose the line is that I like "concept-focused" multiclass builds, that use multiclassing to inform a character idea. The ones that I don't tolerate are "power-focused" multiclass builds, that have the effect of outshining other players who don't pour over the books in their spare time.
    Last edited by Dravda; 2021-06-07 at 12:34 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    I don't allow multi-classing in my 5e games. I am convinced that it makes for a more balanced party if the players stick with their character's class. Non-optimized PCs have greater interdependence and this is conductive to playing well with each others as the PCs need to rely on each other to succeed as a group. The idea that you are failing your party if you aren't playing optimized to the max is a toxic mindset to me.

    -DF
    Last edited by DwarfFighter; 2021-06-07 at 01:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    @Archpaladin Zousha

    Quote Originally Posted by DwarfFighter View Post
    I don't allow multi-classing in my 5e games. I am convinced that it makes for a more balanced party if the players stick with their character's class. Non-optimized PCs have greater interdependence and this is conductive to playing well with each others as the PCs need to rely on each other to succeed as a group. The idea that you are failing your party if you aren't playing optimized to the max is a toxic mindset to me.

    -DF
    I always allow multiclassing in my 5e games. I am convinced multiclassing is a wonderful tool to leverage the mechanics of the game to better represent the character concepts. The idea that you are failing your party if you aren't playing optimized to the max is a toxic mindset to me.

    Even if we use "optimized" to mean "optimizing how well the mechanics represent your character concept", the idea that you are failing your party if you aren't playing optimized to the max is still a toxic mindset to me.


    Archpaladin Zousha, there is no shame in having preferences about how much multiclassing you want to do. I love multiclassing and DwarfFighter dislikes it. Neither of us feels shame about our preference or tries to shame the other over our difference in preference. And despite having wildly different preferences, we both agree that you are not "failing" if you are not "optimized to the max".
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2021-06-07 at 02:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    I agree the described mindset is toxic, but I think you both need to do more to explain why it is toxic.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    I think really everyone should only worry about how their own character is built/played, unless someone asks for advice. This does also mean that the GM shouldn't force the party into situations where lack of optimization results in significant problems for the whole group.

    As far as multiclassing and OP characters though - largely unconnected, IME. The most powerful classes in 3E are casters, and multiclassing is almost always a step down for them. Non-casters benefit a lot more, but even then it's more often pushing them from below-par to on-par rather than any kind of extreme power.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    I agree the described mindset is toxic, but I think you both need to do more to explain why it is toxic.
    When one player is running a min/max character he will be happy when he gets to shine, but when the chips are down, he's taken some crits and his build isn't carrying the day he will start berating the rest of the players for not being sufficiently min/maxed. Then follows the backseat driver stage where he tries to manage the other character's actions. Being told what your character should do is toxic.

    -DF

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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    Multiclassing also occasionally leads to the weak unfocused character, which is just as much of a problem (except in the occasional circumstances who m where I've seen players roll incredibly good stats and device to max-min because they can actually afford a bad build). And sometimes players who can't op to save their life will insist on branching out, inevitably making the game less fun for them when they can't keep up...

    I honestly think that Multiclassing should be limited to Fears and subclasses. Even if their implementation is often somewhat subpar. It keeps balance in a narrower band and avoids a lot of build-based resentment. (But that I actually like strongly classed games anyway, but that's a separate issue).
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by DwarfFighter View Post
    When one player is running a min/max character he will be happy when he gets to shine, but when the chips are down, he's taken some crits and his build isn't carrying the day he will start berating the rest of the players for not being sufficiently min/maxed. Then follows the backseat driver stage where he tries to manage the other character's actions. Being told what your character should do is toxic.

    -DF
    I think you're begging the question. The last sentence (the apparent conclusion) could be the first (the premise) and the chain of logic would make more sense.

    You'd do better focusing on the emotional component: the behaviour is toxic because it's all rooted in emotional resentment of failure, projected outward. There may or may not be good reasons to tell how another's character should act, but being a sore loser rarely is.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Multiclassing also occasionally leads to the weak unfocused character, which is just as much of a problem (except in the occasional circumstances who m where I've seen players roll incredibly good stats and device to max-min because they can actually afford a bad build). And sometimes players who can't op to save their life will insist on branching out, inevitably making the game less fun for them when they can't keep up...
    D&D multiclassing is a high-risk high-reward strategy in my experience. You can carefully pick the right levels in the right combination... or you can just go with what feels right and wind up with an unfocused mess of a character. 5E at least makes it less likely to end up with a complete trainwreck, which in 3E was very easy if you didn't know exactly what you were doing.
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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by DwarfFighter View Post
    When one player is running a min/max character he will be happy when he gets to shine, but when the chips are down, he's taken some crits and his build isn't carrying the day he will start berating the rest of the players for not being sufficiently min/maxed. Then follows the backseat driver stage where he tries to manage the other character's actions. Being told what your character should do is toxic.

    -DF
    The problem isn't different optimization of PCs, it's a dingus who berates teammates when things go badly. Kick that guy to the curb.

    Min/maxing is about how you build your own character, not how you treat the other players.
    Last edited by Ettina; 2021-06-08 at 11:22 AM.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Ettina View Post
    The problem isn't different optimization of PCs, it's a dingus who berates teammates when things go badly. Kick that guy to the curb.

    Min/maxing is about how you build your own character, not how you treat the other players.
    As I scroll up for more context I can see that DwarfFighter is talking about the "dingus" mindset rather than min/maxing in general.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    It doesn't bother me, because it matches my life.

    I am primarily a Mathematician, which qualified me for a few levels in each of the Prestige Classes Statistical Consultant, Actuary, Telecommunications Engineer, and Role-Playing Gamer, a few levels in Fencer, and a 1-level dip in Ranger (Philmont Ranger for 2 summers).

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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by DwarfFighter View Post
    When one player is running a min/max character he will be happy when he gets to shine, but when the chips are down, he's taken some crits and his build isn't carrying the day he will start berating the rest of the players for not being sufficiently min/maxed. Then follows the backseat driver stage where he tries to manage the other character's actions. Being told what your character should do is toxic.

    -DF
    I was once playing a monk. The great tactical plan we had come up with went south due to the other players waffling and not attacking when we had planned. I ended up on the other side of the enemy encampment fighting the boss with them further away than they should have been. They were dealing with some mooks and had already dealt with a brute in between. The boss hit me like a truck a couple of times and I hit him back to where he was noticeably injured but no firm figure on how much hp he had left. I was on low hp and started bonus action dodging with my ki and kept attacking hoping to finish him off first. This was a death at 0 hp game. I bonus action dodged for 3 rounds and missed all my attacks. I made sure the other players knew I was on low hp hoping one would move my direction and heal me or attack the boss. No one attempted to help my PC and he ended up dying.

    It's pretty frustrating when your team doesn't follow a simple plan that ends up with you in a bad situation and then doesn't help you in any way through that bad situation. I didn't berate anyone but I can understand why someone would. It was pretty ridiculous.
    Last edited by Frogreaver; 2021-06-09 at 12:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    Well, sometimes multiclassing is needed to fully use your own abilities.

    Take a ID Rager.
    They get phantom abilities that depend on slam attack (but don't get slam) while bloodraging.
    If they smartly multiclass into Dreamthief Rogue, their attacks count as slam attacks 1/rd.

    By multiclassing, they are mechanically and thematically superior (mostly because Paizo dropped ball and never thought about the limitation of having no slam for abilities that rely on it).

    What I am not sure about is if they get two emotions or must they choose same emotion for abilities (both ID rager and Dreamthief get access to an emotion aspect for phantoms).

    Regardless, multiclassing fixes error in designer creations.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    As an IRL Programmer / Sysadmin / SRE / Bioengineer / Bioinformaticist, multiclassing (and taking dual-progression PRCs) feels natural to me. On one recent adventure, I was serving as the party's programmer, statistician and UX designer when we discovered we were short an oncologist. So I dipped a tenth of a level in oncologist. No big deal.

    A friend of mine who was an Artificier / Bard dipped Cleric so he could officiate a wedding. No big deal.

    Each level represents the skills you focused on developing on that occasion. There's no need to have a plan that ends in enlightenment, and no reasonable expectation that such a plan would survive contact with reality.

    (Some classes may be unreasonably front-loaded, especially if weapons proficiencies are important. 5e's special multiclassing rules may be useful here.)

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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    AS far as things like trap options go, I allow players to recreate their characters, once after we have played for a few sessions, and then again if the players ask. if they feel like their chosen options are not living up to expectations and it is hurting their fun, they should be allowed to change their characters.
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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    I'm in largely the same boat as you, Zousha - if I'm thinking about multiclassing, I've already planned out how I explain my character getting into the new class and how that's going to affect their development as a person. Dips feel cheap to me, like the RPG progression equivalent of a deus ex machina.

    OTOH, I'm talking about more recent games; as you said, many prestige classes in 3.x that would suit a character may require dips that don't mesh that well. Looking at it through that lens, I think my level of favorability toward multiclassing is pretty heavily influenced by how many classes there are in a system. 3.x has literally dozens of classes, hundreds if you count PrCs. Whereas 5e has grand total of 14, at least in the officially published content, and even the "non-canon" material published by the team running the game only adds 1 more. So while I'm pretty happy mixing and matching anything that fits thematically in a 3.5 game, I'm pretty hesitant in a 5e game to even mix "storm sorcerer" with "tempest cleric."

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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    My personal preferences depend on what everyone else is doing. I feel characters are defined (almost) as much by what they can do as what they do do. And the mos defining abilities are the powerful, high level abilities. As a wizard what is the mose powerful spell you can cast? As a rogue, how hard can you stab?

    Now sometimes losing the higher level abilities can be compensated for in terms of power, by more, good, low level abilities. This can be nice. However, it huts the feeling of being a powerful mage if someone else at the table can cast more powerful spells. It hurts the feeling of being the consumate thief if another sneaks better. If I am playing a wizard and someone else is playing a sorcerer then I am much less likely to multiclass.

    On the other hand there are the classes like fighter (in D&D anyway), where the sense of [I]specialism[I] is a bit less clear. There it is taking lots of hits? Dealing lots of damage? Really hard to hit? So many more classes can contribute to the specialism there - even in a game with another fighter I am pretty happy to multiclass as long as it does not diminish my feelings of being a specialist in my chosen area. Feeling to be an effective specialist is more than a raw objective numbers game but about relative expectations.

    But whatever, your preferences are, there should be no shame in it. The only way of playing where you should have some shame is if you actively derive pleasure from others enjoying the game less.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    I hear you. I prefer to have this sort of thing fit in with the game.
    For example, in a 4th ed D&D game I knew that at my next level I was going to to be adding a bunch of languages (I think maybe a feat and a familiar?). So I had my chartacter pull out a "Language stone" - completely made up magical item that he used to "Brush up on some languages he'd gotten badly rusty on".
    In much the same way, my character will be "Studying magic" for ages before taking a level in wizard if I can do it.

    But also, sometimes the party needs X and so the team player thing to do is take a level in X, or you realise a level in Y will make the character more fun to play, and that's fine too
    I love playing in a party with a couple of power-gamers, it frees me up to be Elan!


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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    Maybe DnD should move away from character levels.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordante View Post
    Maybe DnD should move away from character levels.
    If D&D is going to keep anything, levels are probably one of the most integral features.
    If all rules are suggestions what happens when I pass the save?

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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by jinjitsu View Post
    Dips feel cheap to me, like the RPG progression equivalent of a deus ex machina.
    I don't see any connection between dips and either cheapness or a deus ex machina.

    Walt Disney took a dip in Animator before his major levels in Director and Producer.
    Many actors took a dip in some other profession for awhile.
    Stan Lee took a dip in producer after many, many levels of Comic Book Editor.
    Bilbo Baggins, a respectable gentlehobbit, took a one-adventure dip in Burglar.
    Cardinal Richelieu, a life-long cleric, took a dip in Politician.
    Snow White, a princess, took a dip in Housekeeper for seven miners.
    I took a dip in Ranger (two years as a Philmont Ranger while studying mathematics and statistics).
    Captain America took a dip in the Atlantic Ocean between times as a super hero.

    The idea of having only one profession all your life is simply not supported by the evidence, in either real life or fantasy literature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordante View Post
    Maybe DnD should move away from character levels.
    Why? People are using them and enjoying them and buying the books that support them.

    We vote against character levels with threads like this, and vote for character levels by buying the splatbooks that add to them.

    Wizards of the Coast only counts the latter votes.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    Yeah 5e should have left 3e-style Multiclassing with 3e. OTOH it's an optional rule. So you shouldn't feel compelled to use it.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Yeah 5e should have left 3e-style Multiclassing with 3e. OTOH it's an optional rule. So you shouldn't feel compelled to use it.
    I really get the impression the designers of 5E didn't particularly want 3E-style multiclassing, but people demanded it, so it had to be included. Another one on the list of pretty bad ideas that became tradition so they have to stick around.
    Last edited by Morty; 2021-07-01 at 04:31 AM.
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Multiclassing/Dipping Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    I really get the impression the designers of 5E didn't particularly want 3E-style multiclassing, but people demanded it, so it had to be included. Another one on the list of pretty bad ideas that became tradition so they have to stick around.
    Level by level multiclassing is a very useful tool for designers. It allows them to make fewer base class while having a larger list of virtual base classes.

    I think it is a good idea for optional content. It does not need to be used, but it allows players with non standard characters to play D&D instead of leaving to find another RPG that can handle their character concepts.

    For example, in the absence of a lycanthrope PC species, you could have a 5E Totem Barbarian / Moon Druid to represent a warrior that is fighting to hold back the beast within. Start the fight as a calm fighter. On round 2 activate Rage as combat decreases your efforts to hold back the beast. On round 3-4 Wildshape into the beast within.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2021-07-01 at 07:02 AM.

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