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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    I absolutely support the idea if fresh new settings. With fresh new ideas.
    And fresh new book smells.
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  2. - Top - End - #362
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    So, uh, how about we *not* get this thread locked, yeah? I missed my AES commentary, and this seems to be drifting towards using TWoT as a proxy for larger societal issues that this forum really isn't the place to discuss.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    So, uh, how about we *not* get this thread locked, yeah? I missed my AES commentary, and this seems to be drifting towards using TWoT as a proxy for larger societal issues that this forum really isn't the place to discuss.
    That would indeed be nice. I enjoy this thread and would hate to see it locked.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Something odd that occurred to me about the unfortunate implication bad guy character.
    Spoiler
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    In a way, when the dark one put him/her into the opposite gender body (I honestly have forgotten what gender the character started as) It is shown to be a miserable experience for them. Being born in a body whose gender doesnt match who you are is a bad thing, Being unable to change that is worse. Is there any trans person out there who would disagree with that stance? Isnt that kind of the whole point? This person suffers because their physical body doesnt match who they are inside. Its a punishment for them because there is nothing they can really do to fix it.

    The fact that they are a bad guy does take some sympathy points away, but remember they werent introduced as a bad guy while being trans, they were a bad guy made to suffer a punishment by being shoved into the wrong body. This makes it a bit different from the whole buffalo bill thing from silence of the lambs. Where the whole gender/cross dressing/whatever thing is used as proof of how twisted and sick he is. Is that an interpretation that makes sense to any of our trans members of the community? I also fully admit that I may be misremembering how much that character hated being in the wrong gender body or other aspects so please do correct me if I was way off base. I just think its an interesting different way to look at the character beyond "Omg another evil non heteronormative character, freaking of course."
    I could see that working, but I think you'd need two things to pull it off, plus good writing of course. And... might as well spoiler them for safety's sake.
    Spoiler
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    First, a non-evil, non-explicit-perversion-of-nature, non-cis person. This doesn't even really have to be a character; it could be as simple as someone in universe (probably the Forsaken himself, but maybe the other reincarnated guy) recognizing and making the comparison, implying that other trans people exist naturally in the setting.

    Second, he'd need to be either accessing Sai'dar now, or have it called out that normally a trans man would only have access to Sai'dar. This makes access to the One Power sex-linked instead of gender linked, which neatly nips in the bud the worldbuilding issues of "how the heck did trans, nonbinary, and genderfluid channelers never get noticed before?". If you want to do the former and keep the plot where he infiltrates the Tower In Exile (I think that's what they called themselves?), he'd need a weave to hide that he is a female channeler (which I think already exists in setting at that point in the story) and to use either The True Power (Dark One juice) or inverted weaves for his channeling.



    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
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    Those detractors could absolutely go suck a frog.
    If they start dragging real world garbage into my fictional universe. Then i would ABSOLUTELY feel justified in telling them what morons they are.
    Certainly, the recent madness with trying to scrub away any possible implications, someone, somewhere, might feel insulted by has resulted in a overall dip in quality of storytelling.
    I confess i miss how the world used to be 10 years ago.
    You are of course entitled to that opinion. For the record, I disagree with it, but I also don't see it as incompatible or even at odds with what I'm proposing.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you want to keep TWoT's interesting and unique magic system, right?

    I just want to make it sex-linked instead of gender-linked. Just as unique, and none of the interesting mechanics even change. The only character affected by it is one so minor that most of the people in this thread can't even remember their name (plus a few special effects changes in like two scenes that ultimately don't impact any characters).

    Surely that's a small enough price to pay for worldbuilding that has both more verisimilitude and more inclusivity?



    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    So, uh, how about we *not* get this thread locked, yeah? I missed my AES commentary, and this seems to be drifting towards using TWoT as a proxy for larger societal issues that this forum really isn't the place to discuss.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    That would indeed be nice. I enjoy this thread and would hate to see it locked.

    While I agree in principle, honestly, this debate has thus far been extremely polite and cordial. I'm honestly proud to be in a community that can discuss these things so civilly.

    That said, if it goes on much longer, we should probably spin it off into its own thread.


    Changed my mind. While relevant to the story and very civil thus far, this debate is taking up a lot of space in a thread that's supposed to be a let's read. I'll start a new one. (New thread, not new debate).
    Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2021-07-26 at 06:40 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    Spoiler: Key language
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    I just want to make it sex-linked instead of gender-linked. Just as unique, and none of the interesting mechanics even change. The only character affected by it is one so minor that most of the people in this thread can't even remember their name (plus a few special effects changes in like two scenes that ultimately don't impact any characters).
    I don't think it's that easy. I think if you do that, you'll find that folks are deeply (and not necessarily wrongly) offended by the notion that in this universe it works that way.

    Spoiler: Because
    Show
    If you treat it as sex-linked you are going to upset folks who view that as suggesting that trans people aren't 'really' the destination gender. After all, the universe as a whole is flat out saying that no matter how much you're a transwoman, you can't access the power that 'real' women can.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    All of these potential paths have unfortunate implications. It just boils down to which you prefer.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    I don't think it's that easy. I think if you do that, you'll find that folks are deeply (and not necessarily wrongly) offended by the notion that in this universe it works that way.

    Spoiler: Because
    Show
    If you treat it as sex-linked you are going to upset folks who view that as suggesting that trans people aren't 'really' the destination gender. After all, the universe as a whole is flat out saying that no matter how much you're a transwoman, you can't access the power that 'real' women can.
    That's... a fair point, but I do think it's looking at it in a negative light.
    Spoiler: Okay, big spoilers in this one
    Show
    The way I view it, being unable to access Sai'dar makes you no less a "real woman" than not having two X chromosomes, or not having ovaries, or any other difference you were born with.

    And this view has the advantage of fitting well with the text. A repeatedly emphasized theme in the series is that being able to channel (and what you channel) is not nearly as important as who you are as a person. Only one of the ta'veren can channel, and while Rand is probably the most important of them, channeling doesn't even play a role in the Final Battle. Rand mocks Taim for being over-reliant on on the Source, and often trounces his opponents without using it at all. Moraine isn't diminished by losing some of her power. Thom singlehandedly kills like twelve Black Ajah in the Final Battle by outsmarting them one at a time.

    It also plays nicely with one of the other major themes, that being the freedom to choose who and what you are.


    But even though my proposed solution does have a possible negative implication, I still think it's a real and significant step up from the implication as the work currently stands, which is that non-cis people either don't exist or are locked out of channeling by not fitting into the mold (except as the work of actual Satan).

    Also, I think I am going to start making a separate thread for this discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
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  8. - Top - End - #368
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post

    I absolutely support the idea if fresh new settings. With fresh new ideas.
    The good news is that there are a lot of these coming through, especially in YA. Nothing on the scale of WoT yet (and to be honest there are only a handful of series that size anyway). Where once you only really saw Western Europe inspired fantasy settings, now you are getting a lot of diversity, with plenty of Asian inspired fantasy and also we are seeing African inspired fantasy as well. And you are getting a lot of diversity in the MCs as well.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    And new thread for discussing non-cis inclusion. Let me know if you think I've missed something important.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Something odd that occurred to me about the unfortunate implication bad guy character.
    Spoiler
    Show
    In a way, when the dark one put him/her into the opposite gender body (I honestly have forgotten what gender the character started as) It is shown to be a miserable experience for them. Being born in a body whose gender doesnt match who you are is a bad thing, Being unable to change that is worse. Is there any trans person out there who would disagree with that stance? Isnt that kind of the whole point? This person suffers because their physical body doesnt match who they are inside. Its a punishment for them because there is nothing they can really do to fix it.

    The fact that they are a bad guy does take some sympathy points away, but remember they werent introduced as a bad guy while being trans, they were a bad guy made to suffer a punishment by being shoved into the wrong body. This makes it a bit different from the whole buffalo bill thing from silence of the lambs. Where the whole gender/cross dressing/whatever thing is used as proof of how twisted and sick he is. Is that an interpretation that makes sense to any of our trans members of the community? I also fully admit that I may be misremembering how much that character hated being in the wrong gender body or other aspects so please do correct me if I was way off base. I just think its an interesting different way to look at the character beyond "Omg another evil non heteronormative character, freaking of course."
    The very short version:

    Spoiler
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    She started off angry about being put in a female body (LoC) but a few books later admitted to loving it (KoD) - and wholly identifying as her new gender. In addition, she mentions that her "appetites" have only deepened and strengthened. One major change is that, while Balthamel was only attracted to women, as Aran'gar she found herself attracted to men as well.

    Her depravity didn't change however - she was near the top of the Forsaken in that regard, behind probably only Graendal/Semirhage/Rahvin - and if anything she became even worse. Make of that what you will.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    That's... a fair point, but I do think it's looking at it in a negative light.
    Spoiler: Okay, big spoilers in this one
    Show
    The way I view it, being unable to access Sai'dar makes you no less a "real woman" than not having two X chromosomes, or not having ovaries, or any other difference you were born with.

    And this view has the advantage of fitting well with the text. A repeatedly emphasized theme in the series is that being able to channel (and what you channel) is not nearly as important as who you are as a person. Only one of the ta'veren can channel, and while Rand is probably the most important of them, channeling doesn't even play a role in the Final Battle. Rand mocks Taim for being over-reliant on on the Source, and often trounces his opponents without using it at all. Moraine isn't diminished by losing some of her power. Thom singlehandedly kills like twelve Black Ajah in the Final Battle by outsmarting them one at a time.

    It also plays nicely with one of the other major themes, that being the freedom to choose who and what you are.


    But even though my proposed solution does have a possible negative implication, I still think it's a real and significant step up from the implication as the work currently stands, which is that non-cis people either don't exist or are locked out of channeling by not fitting into the mold (except as the work of actual Satan).

    Also, I think I am going to start making a separate thread for this discussion.
    Spoiler
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    Linking channeling to physical sex only works if you drop Aran'gar completely from the story, because she's working the exact opposite way. That is certainly doable, her role in the story isn't majorly important and could probably be dropped. But it's still removing part of the source material in order to fit in something new that directly contradicts it.
    What did the monk say to his dinner?
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    Out of the frying pan and into the friar!


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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Leading by example works a lot better for promoting diversity than nitpicking someone's existing work. Unfortunately, it's also a lot more difficult.

    In terms of new kinds of settings, the one that works best that I've seen is Malazan, because it unapologetically involves diversity and inclusiveness but relatively little 'coding', which tends to be problematic, especially from Western writers.

    Take from multiple cultures, and it could be said that you're assuming all Asian/African cuiltures are the same, but cleave to one too closely and you end up with the readers assuming that there is a commentary about that particular culture involved.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Not restarting the previous discussion, but I was re-reading Fires of Heaven this weekend and noticed something about the final scene:

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Cardew View Post
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    If you're referring to Nyneave, she was using the twisted stone ring and explicitly not one of the channel-to-use one, Egwene gives it to Elayne and her when she leaves for the Wastes since she won't need it. We do see Mog rip out Birgitte, which seems to imply a higher level of knowledge, of course we can't assume Lanfear couldn't do that as well. I doubt any of that significantly changes your feelings, but Mog always felt like more of threat there than Lanfear did to me.
    Spoiler: Dreams
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    Nynaeve was using the channel-to-use ter'angreal - the amber woman specifically - and the reason for that is because at the time she was teaching Siuan (who at this point in the series couldn't channel at all) how to use the twisted stone ring. When she spots Moghedien and ejects Siuan from TAR, Birgitte is able to get the ring from her sleeping body and drink what was left of Nynaeve's sleeping potion to come help.


    Unrelated - I'm now back in Lord of Chaos and had a question:

    Spoiler: Teaching
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    Do we know who taught Taim how to channel? Was he truly self-taught?

    Taim by all accounts has been able to channel for 10-15 years, and kept himself from going mad that entire time - way too long for it to be one of the Forsaken, except of course Ishamael. But Isshy would have to know Taim wasn't truly the Dragon, and that's the only person he seems to have been interested in teaching. I'm not sure if any of that was explained anywhere.

    Rumor is that the show is planning to make Logain a bit more prominent than he is in the books - understandable since he does essentially nothing for the first 6 or so before suddenly becoming very important to the plot - and I'm hoping that they also take another look at Taim as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

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    Interesting point about Tam. We got some hints, he at least at some point, had been mentored by Demandred.

    As for Logain. I confess it was just about the one thing Sandersons ending annoyed me with.
    It took a lot of the relevance Logain was meant to have had. Personally i kinda liked Logain. He did what he did of altruistic reasons.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
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    Interesting point about Tam. We got some hints, he at least at some point, had been mentored by Demandred.

    As for Logain. I confess it was just about the one thing Sandersons ending annoyed me with.
    It took a lot of the relevance Logain was meant to have had. Personally i kinda liked Logain. He did what he did of altruistic reasons.

    Spoiler: Logain, major
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    Wait, what was bad about his ending? He survived the Last Battle, played a key role (guarding the final seals until it was time to pop them) and is probably the strongest male channeler in the world by default now. He will almost certainly end up leading the Black Tower in the Fourth Age too, having been instrumental in purging it. And the world is gonna need him if Fortuona gets too uppity and decides to try enslaving all the female channelers for their own good.


    Spoiler: Taim
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    He definitely was mentored by Demandred, but that could only have happened sometime in the last 2 years or so. Worse, it would have had to have happened before Taim took up residence at the Black Tower, because Demandred is surprised at seeing his first Asha'man at the cleansing of Saidin fight - if he had been working with Taim rafter Taim got employed by Rand, he'd have to know what Asha'man were.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-08-03 at 10:22 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Spoiler: Logain, major
    Show
    Wait, what was bad about his ending? He survived the Last Battle, played a key role (guarding the final seals until it was time to pop them) and is probably the strongest male channeler in the world by default now. He will almost certainly end up leading the Black Tower in the Fourth Age too, having been instrumental in purging it. And the world is gonna need him if Fortuona gets too uppity and decides to try enslaving all the female channelers for their own good.


    Spoiler: Taim
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    He definitely was mentored by Demandred, but that could only have happened sometime in the last 2 years or so. Worse, it would have had to have happened before Taim took up residence at the Black Tower, because Demandred is surprised at seeing his first Asha'man at the cleansing of Saidin fight - if he had been working with Taim rafter Taim got employed by Rand, he'd have to know what Asha'man were.
    Spoiler: Logain
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    Logain's climax during Sanderson's work was hamstrung by Androl, the Super Special Gateway Man TM. Without going back to reread, I'd wager that Logain's arc is the one most damaged by Androl's existence. It's not so much that he won't get to do things, but a lot of his spotlight was stolen in the most important time (aka the time of the story aka the bit we get to see ).
    Last edited by MammonAzrael; 2021-08-03 at 11:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    Spoiler: Logain
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    Logain's climax during Sanderson's work was hamstrung by Androl, the Super Special Gateway Man TM. Without going back to reread, I'd wager that Logain's arc is the one most damaged by Androl's existence. It's not so much that he won't get to do things, but a lot of his spotlight was stolen in the most important time (aka the time of the story aka the bit we get to see ).
    I will say I've never been a fan of
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    extremely precise / reliable / weaponized mass teleportation in fantasy. There's just too much damage you can do to your own narrative if you establish that, especially once the good guys get their hands on it too. Androl is only a symptom of this larger problem imo.

    I'm convinced the reason RJ ended up with the arbitrary "shadowspawn can't use gateways" rule is that he wrote himself into a corner once he brought Traveling back to the setting - and as silly as that rule was, even that failed to stop gateways from making the finale very messy.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I will say I've never been a fan of
    Spoiler
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    extremely precise / reliable / weaponized mass teleportation in fantasy. There's just too much damage you can do to your own narrative if you establish that, especially once the good guys get their hands on it too. Androl is only a symptom of this larger problem imo.

    I'm convinced the reason RJ ended up with the arbitrary "shadowspawn can't use gateways" rule is that he wrote himself into a corner once he brought Traveling back to the setting - and as silly as that rule was, even that failed to stop gateways from making the finale very messy.
    Something like this reminds me of
    Spoiler: The Spellsong Cycle/War
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    In that things escalated to terrifying levels. In the case of the good guys, because they were able to exploit our main characters modern science knowledge to break the system, letting a single singer do terrible things that should require entire choirs and orchestras to even attempt. Up to and including, knowledge of how to nuke a target, quite literally. The first series was a fairly standard medieval magic setup, but the second series where her student who took over for her had to delve into her notes about science, escalated the magical arms race to absurd proportions.
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Something like this reminds me of
    Spoiler: The Spellsong Cycle/War
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    In that things escalated to terrifying levels. In the case of the good guys, because they were able to exploit our main characters modern science knowledge to break the system, letting a single singer do terrible things that should require entire choirs and orchestras to even attempt. Up to and including, knowledge of how to nuke a target, quite literally. The first series was a fairly standard medieval magic setup, but the second series where her student who took over for her had to delve into her notes about science, escalated the magical arms race to absurd proportions.
    ...I have a new series to look up and read.
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Author is le modesitt Dude has written like 70 novels in his career but this series is honestly the only one I picked up. Not sure why, I read them several times and enjoyed it.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
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  21. - Top - End - #381
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Spoiler: Taim
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    Taim was -clearly- originally supposed to be Demandred in disguise. The notes Jordan left after dying even confirmed this, despite Jordan denying it at the time when the books were new. Apparently he didn't mean to make it so obvious, and fans figured it out so quickly that he changed his mind.

    As for the revamped version of Taim not going insane....he kinda is? I'm not sure what else you'd call someone who turns down a life of comfort and power to serve an evil god that wants to kill everyone and destroy the world.


    Spoiler: Sanderson
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    Androl is by far the worst thing to happen in the entire series, and I'll simply never take Sanderson seriously as a writer again because of it. He sidelined every major character during the climax of a 10,000+ page series to give his self insert character the spotlight. I've ranted about it at length before in previous threads so I won't go into a ton of detail, but it's the most poorly written slop I've ever seen. I got more enjoyment from Twilight and 50 Shades when I read them for my girlfriend than I did from Sanderson's finale of the series.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2021-08-03 at 05:55 PM.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

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    The Dark One can protect people from the taint

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Spoiler: Taim
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    Taim was -clearly- originally supposed to be Demandred in disguise. The notes Jordan left after dying even confirmed this, despite Jordan denying it at the time when the books were new. Apparently he didn't mean to make it so obvious, and fans figured it out so quickly that he changed his mind.
    This infuriates me beyond reason and is why the reveal at the end of Loki had me so happy.

    Seriously, if you have a good idea, and you spent a bunch of time and text setting up the good idea, who cares that some people figured that idea out in advance? Do it anyway. Pivoting midstream purely for the sake of maintaining a twist almost always ends badly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Spoiler: Taim
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    As for the revamped version of Taim not going insane....he kinda is? I'm not sure what else you'd call someone who turns down a life of comfort and power to serve an evil god that wants to kill everyone and destroy the world.
    The thing you have to remember though is,
    Spoiler: Sanity
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    Ishamael - the nihilist and prime philosopher among them - is the only one who really believed Shaitan would destroy the world. All the rest thought he'd stop short of oblivion, and leave something behind that one of them (immortal) could rule over and indulge their various vices in forever. Taim could have easily been duped/seduced like the other 12. In other words, Taim and the others weren't insane... just idiots and patsies. In fact, knowing the Dark One's true plan (unmaking reality, thus ending the cycle of endless rebirths permanently), and serving him anyway, is ultimately why Ishamael ended up being named Nae'blis. (Well, that and being the strongest channeler next to Rand himself.)

    ...Well, maybe Lanfear figured out the truth too, and sought to partner up with Lews Therin to overthrow him so that there would still be a world to rule. But none of the others really did, Taim included.

    (Seriously, I would have figured it out when I realized almost every one of Rand's major successes was due to the Dark One taking almost perverse delight in screwing with his own chief lieutenants' success. Using Semirhage to troll Sammael, letting Lanfear troll Asmodean, trolling Graendal by letting her think she'd be Nae'blis, letting Elza murder Osan'gar, giving Rand TP access to troll Semirhage, literally everything Shaidar Haran does (say, does SH go after a single good character in the whole series? Ever?) etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Spoiler: Sanderson
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    Androl is by far the worst thing to happen in the entire series, and I'll simply never take Sanderson seriously as a writer again because of it. He sidelined every major character during the climax of a 10,000+ page series to give his self insert character the spotlight. I've ranted about it at length before in previous threads so I won't go into a ton of detail, but it's the most poorly written slop I've ever seen. I got more enjoyment from Twilight and 50 Shades when I read them for my girlfriend than I did from Sanderson's finale of the series.
    Well, it might please you to know that Sanderson said Amazon rejected some of his suggestions for the show then
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    This infuriates me beyond reason and is why the reveal at the end of Loki had me so happy.

    Seriously, if you have a good idea, and you spent a bunch of time and text setting up the good idea, who cares that some people figured that idea out in advance? Do it anyway. Pivoting midstream purely for the sake of maintaining a twist almost always ends badly.
    Spoiler
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    I suspect that Jordan felt that, since the fans spotted the deception so easily, the Rand's failure to do so made him look like an idiot, and he wasn't wrong in that, exactly. Rand's management of the Black Tower is one of, if not the, most egregious of his failures as a character. Especially since he should understand following the Dumai's Wells incident that the thousand-or-so dudes he's got at the Black Tower represent more firepower than all the conventional armies he can rally combined. However, that problem remains in place irrespective of the truth behind Taim's identity or if anything becomes worse - since Demandred at least has a history with Lews Therin and plausibly understands how to manipulate him in a way Taim absolutely doesn't.

    In a broader sense I think it's a symptom of Jordan trying to fight against the fact that he made a fantasy universe in which only the casters matter and that was not conductive to the story he wanted to tell. This is a common failure point in epic fantasy with a high power level. Sanderson, interestingly, is the rare fantasy author who actually leans into the casters only paradigm and simply gives forms of magical power to every character he considers important in order to let them keep pace with the narrative, something he totally did with Perrin in WoT.
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
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    (Seriously, I would have figured it out when I realized almost every one of Rand's major successes was due to the Dark One taking almost perverse delight in screwing with his own chief lieutenants' success. Using Semirhage to troll Sammael, letting Lanfear troll Asmodean, trolling Graendal by letting her think she'd be Nae'blis, letting Elza murder Osan'gar, giving Rand TP access to troll Semirhage, literally everything Shaidar Haran does (say, does SH go after a single good character in the whole series? Ever?) etc.
    Spoiler
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    I think saying 'almost every major success' is stating a little strongly, and some of those have motives beyond messing with his servants: letting the Forsaken think they're going to be Nae'blis is his standard motivational carrot-on-a-stick, while giving Rand the True Power was a step in the plan to drive him into nihilistic madness. And I don't think he let Elza kill Osan'gar, he doesn't have some kind of instant ability to control or even communicate with Darkfriends; that one was genuinely an oopsie.

    But those nitpicks aside... yeah, he clearly views his servants as both expendable and amusing to torment. Ishamael is picked for Nae'blis because he's the only other one in on the cosmic joke.

    Re Shaidar Haran ever going after a good character, no he does not. I got the vague impression that he couldn't; it's mentioned a few times that swearing allegiance to the Dark One gives him some sort of power over you, and Shaidar Haran is basically an avatar for him. Maybe the Wheel literally won't let him go try to murder one of the good guys, maybe it's just that none of his super-spooky powers would work on non-Darkfriends.
    Last edited by The_Snark; 2021-08-03 at 08:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
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    Re Shaidar Haran ever going after a good character, no he does not. I got the vague impression that he couldn't; it's mentioned a few times that swearing allegiance to the Dark One gives him some sort of power over you, and Shaidar Haran is basically an avatar for him. Maybe the Wheel literally won't let him go try to murder one of the good guys, maybe it's just that none of his super-spooky powers would work on non-Darkfriends.
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    That would make sense, except when he frees Semirhage he easily dissipates their shield on her, and incapacitates them. Presumably the ones holding Semirhage's shield in place for Rand weren't darkfriends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
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    I suspect that Jordan felt that, since the fans spotted the deception so easily, the Rand's failure to do so made him look like an idiot, and he wasn't wrong in that, exactly. Rand's management of the Black Tower is one of, if not the, most egregious of his failures as a character. Especially since he should understand following the Dumai's Wells incident that the thousand-or-so dudes he's got at the Black Tower represent more firepower than all the conventional armies he can rally combined. However, that problem remains in place irrespective of the truth behind Taim's identity or if anything becomes worse - since Demandred at least has a history with Lews Therin and plausibly understands how to manipulate him in a way Taim absolutely doesn't.

    In a broader sense I think it's a symptom of Jordan trying to fight against the fact that he made a fantasy universe in which only the casters matter and that was not conductive to the story he wanted to tell. This is a common failure point in epic fantasy with a high power level. Sanderson, interestingly, is the rare fantasy author who actually leans into the casters only paradigm and simply gives forms of magical power to every character he considers important in order to let them keep pace with the narrative, something he totally did with Perrin in WoT.
    Spoiler: BT
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    I give Rand a small pass here for the Black Tower getting as bad as it did; with the way Lews Therin was acting, he couldn't really go back there until he resolved his sanity issue. If he had, the BEST case scenario is that he'd have left the place a smoking crater, and the worst is that he'd have been annihilated himself, or perhaps even catalyzed a new Breaking.

    By the time he sorted his head out, the place was firmly in Taim's grip - which again, would have made a boatload more sense if he were actually Demandred instead of some random Darkfriend who just so happened to have Forsaken Male-level strength and staved off madness all on his own for a decade.

    With all that said, I agree that I'd much rather Logain get more time to shine liberating the place than Androl.


    Spoiler: Casters
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    I don't really see how having a high-magic setting means he couldn't have gone with his original plan of Demandred being Taim instead of having the "M'Hael" come basically out of nowhere. In fact I'd much have preferred it if Egwene and Gawyn took him out together (the quintessential Aes Sedai + Warder vs. a Blademaster channeler) instead of the frankly ridiculous sword-rush we got.


    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
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    I think saying 'almost every major success' is stating a little strongly, and some of those have motives beyond messing with his servants: letting the Forsaken think they're going to be Nae'blis is his standard motivational carrot-on-a-stick, while giving Rand the True Power was a step in the plan to drive him into nihilistic madness. And I don't think he let Elza kill Osan'gar, he doesn't have some kind of instant ability to control or even communicate with Darkfriends; that one was genuinely an oopsie.

    But those nitpicks aside... yeah, he clearly views his servants as both expendable and amusing to torment. Ishamael is picked for Nae'blis because he's the only other one in on the cosmic joke.

    Re Shaidar Haran ever going after a good character, no he does not. I got the vague impression that he couldn't; it's mentioned a few times that swearing allegiance to the Dark One gives him some sort of power over you, and Shaidar Haran is basically an avatar for him. Maybe the Wheel literally won't let him go try to murder one of the good guys, maybe it's just that none of his super-spooky powers would work on non-Darkfriends.
    Spoiler
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    You're right about Elza but come on, they could at least circulate that there are Darkfriends among the asha'man. Or utiilize some Darkfriend shibboleth/secret handshake or something. Darkfriends do have that (it's how Lanfear and Asmodean got Kadere to caravan their disguised personas into the Aiel Waste after all) but Elza doesn't even consider the possibility, which suggests that nobody bothered telling them.

    As for SH's powers - putting aside that some of them do work on non-DF (see the freeing of Semirhage), making an agent of evil that can only terrorize your side would be extremely counterproductive. I'd be hard-pressed to determine which is dumber - that, or one that can terrorize both sides but simply only chooses to make life miserable for other evildoers.

    Some of what SH does is useful, don't get me wrong. But more often than not, he's a cudgel beating the other Chosen over the head.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-08-04 at 12:44 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  28. - Top - End - #388
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    I suppose one could make the argument that Shadar Haran is simply too valuable to risk by sending him after Rand or Mat or someone else who has a solid chance of actually killing him. He seems to be the avatar for the Dark One himself, so killing him may have repercussions the Dark One doesn't want to face.

    I actually always felt like Shadar Haran was being set up to go against Perrin, although for the life of me I can't remember why. Just another thing to wonder about how the story would have actually gone if Jordan had lived to finish it instead of being forced to end things with bad fan-fiction.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
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    I suppose one could make the argument that Shadar Haran is simply too valuable to risk by sending him after Rand or Mat or someone else who has a solid chance of actually killing him. He seems to be the avatar for the Dark One himself, so killing him may have repercussions the Dark One doesn't want to face.

    I actually always felt like Shadar Haran was being set up to go against Perrin, although for the life of me I can't remember why. Just another thing to wonder about how the story would have actually gone if Jordan had lived to finish it instead of being forced to end things with bad fan-fiction.

    Spoiler: Foils
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    Slayer was clearly the Shadow's foil for Perrin, and the gholam the foil for Mat (or possibly Fain.)

    Personally I had thought Shaidar Haran would go after Fain, get eaten, and that would cause Fain to reach his final form much like what we got with Shaisam.
    Alternatively, Shaidar Haran should have been combined with Ba'alzamon to birth Moridin, giving Moridin some creepy non-channeling ways to weave the Pattern similar to what SaneRand gets.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Well. Moridin already had full access to the true source.

    But as for Shaidar Haram. I liked the theory that the rules of creation limited it in what it was allowed to do.
    Since it was basically the dark ones avatar.

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