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2021-09-06, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Last edited by Gnoman; 2021-09-06 at 12:29 PM.
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2021-09-06, 01:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Spoiler: A fun thought about Min's visionsMin's visions show the future, and telling people about them doesn't change the result. This doesn't mean that the future twists around and murders people - it means she's seen a specific event is going to hapen to a person. This works in reverse too - if she doesn't see a vision, chances are that the bad things won't happen.
This changes it into a "You already changed the Past" kind of ability. Min can tell people about the visions, but if they have a vision they're doomed. If she tells other people in the vicinity, they might have a change of heart and go take up a nice safe hobby somewhere far way. Without Min, they would have died, but because Min was there, they lived. She just doesn't see that because she doesn't have a vision for those people. Her presence nullifies bad things, but only if she gives out dire warnings to people who are doomed to die within earshot of people who would have died if she hadn't done that. And there's no way of telling who except by the lack of doom symbols among a group of people who have them.
I could get crosseyed thinking about this.
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2021-09-06, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Spoiler: A thought about Min's visionsI don't know if Min's visions necessarily rule out free will. All the visions whose meaning she knows come to pass, but she also has lots of visions whose meaning she doesn't know. Perhaps those visions are reflections of futures that could occur but won't, because people chose other paths.I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.
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2021-09-06, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Spoiler
Jordan comes out pretty hard against determinism in the story. It is literally the ideology of Ishmael, the great evil that is resignation to fate.
Rand's big ephiphany is that the reason the world is cyclical is to give them the opportunity to do better each time, the Creator does it not to trap them but to free them. The existence of Balefire and the Dark One are also signs the Creator deliberately made a non-deterministic universe.
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2021-09-06, 03:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Spoiler
Except that when Min see someone will die.
And NOTHING they do will change it. Then it kinda means their choices suddenly lack meaning.
Its as such also a problem Jordan realized down the line i think.
As some of the later propecies had clauses or branched paths.
Gawains come to mind. He had two possible fates.
thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2021-09-06, 03:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
I'm back from DragonCon, where there were no less than three Wheel of Time panels over the weekend - all of which were run by one of the organizers of JordanCon, which I will do my absolute best to attend next year
There was not much in the way of brand new information (other than the LTT casting leak which broke while I was there) but I did get some juicy secondhand tidbits from their recent conversations with Rafe Judkins about his showrunning intent:
Spoiler: Known Wheel of Time show differences
- Logain will have an expanded role. (We already suspected this one but it's good to have confirmation.)
- Events will be condensed and the timeline will be changed. (The Hall of the Tower showing up in the S1 trailer is a pretty good indicator of this.)
- Smaller characters will be combined if necessary. (I've been hearing Galadwyn rumors on the subreddit, though I'm more expecting this to apply to the piles and piles and piles of tertiary channelers out there.)
- Things that haven't aged well will be updated. (YES!)
- Still no casting announced for Elayne or any of the Trakands.
Now to get caught back up on the thread...
My guess is that it's
Spoiler: Egweneone of her prophetic dreams, kicking that part of her ability set off much sooner than in the books. Certainly emerging from the water to be draped in the seven Ajah colors is about as heavy-handed as foreshadowing gets. Floating down the river could definitely be a visual representation of Saidar however.
Eh, it's a teaser (the first one at that.) Far too early to worry about who is speaking I'd say.
For Myrddraal, while eyeless + normal human mouth might be unsettling, I don't think it would convey the instant supernatural fear response their victims are supposed to be feeling. So I'm good with the maw-mouth.
Old guy at 1:10 is almost certainly Tam rather than Thom.
My guess for walled city at 0:57 is Shadar Logoth, with the mountain scene in the foreground being post-splitting-of-the-Fellowshipparty.
1:34 monument I believe was confirmed to be a Waygate. Yes, they look radically different in the show.
Almost certainly Logain's followers trying to break him out. If he's going to have an expanded role in this, so will they. No doubt that rescue attempt will lead to the graves with solemn Aes Sedai standing over them at 1:13.
Given that he's crying over a Great Serpent ring, I'm guessing bereft Warder.
Yep!Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-09-06, 08:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Yeah, I found that out later. Some people confirmed that the actor in question was to be playing a Warder character named Stepin, who was bonded to a Green Aes Sedai called Kerene Nagashi.
SpoilerIn the books, Kerene was murdered by Black Ajah when Rand was 1 year old but in the show she is not only alive but also involved with capturing Logain. Given that it looks like she dies, I guess it happens either then or when Logain's followers try and rescue him.
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2021-09-06, 08:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-09-07, 06:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Spoiler: Wheel of time Differences
- Things that haven't aged well will be updated. (YES!)
More likely the stuff you want rid off vanish due to plot insignificance.
thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2021-09-07, 12:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
It's true that there isn't absolute consensus, but I definitely see some things come up as broadly-accepted to have aged poorly. A few of these include (content warning):
Spoiler: Examples
- Mat being repeatedly r*ped by Tylin (not saying they have to get rid of that subplot entirely, but reframing it as the horror it is would be necessary if they keep it.)
- Borderline fetishistic spanking/physical humiliation of major female characters
- Gratuitous nudity for women in political scenes
- Toning down RJ's gender essentialism (all women behave like this, all men behave like that.)
While I have no guarantees they'll agree with me on everything I might consider to have aged poorly, previous Amazon adaptations like The Boys and The Expanse have met my expectations in that regard, so I have reason to believe we'll be aligned. (In The Boys, Starlight's initiation to the Seven was VERY different in the books as one example.)
One thing I find interesting about this tweak:
Spoiler: Logain's captureIn the books, Cadsuane was canonically involved with capturing Logain, as well as with fighting off his followers. Could they be thinking of introducing her earlier as well? Or perhaps they'll reference her in order to foreshadow her legend a bit so she doesn't come quite as much out of nowhere. Or maybe she's getting folded into someone else or cut entirely. I could see Nynaeve as a surrogate mother-figure for Rand being the one to help him through his darker phase, and while Cadsuane shows up in New Spring she does basically nothing there either.
Two things interesting about this:
Spoiler: Warder Bond, major spoilers1) Whatever breaking the bond does here, it doesn't appear to send the warder into an instant/suicidal berserker rage. I'm curious what the effects will be in the show.
2) They're almost certainly including this now to set up Lan and Moiraine later, which is going to be the biggest sudden bond-break for the show. If they get that far, Egwene/Gawyn is the second biggest, followed by Alanna/Rand in third if they bother keeping that plot point.Last edited by Psyren; 2021-09-07 at 02:02 PM.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-09-07, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
It's true that there isn't absolute consensus, but I definitely see some things come up as broadly-accepted to have aged poorly. A few of these include (content warning):
Though hah.. its still possible it vanish due to being plot insignificant then xDthnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2021-09-07, 08:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-09-07, 09:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
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2021-09-07, 11:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
I disagree;
With any luck, WoT won't go down that road either.Spoilerthe show actually added sexual assaults that weren't in the books, e.g. Joffrey with the crossbow, Ramsay x Sansa, Theon x Sansa etc. Yeah, some of the violent scenes were toned down like Tyrion's nose and Myrcella's face but overall I stand by my statement.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-09-08, 01:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
I mean, we already have one new bathing scene in the trailer, so maybe thinking they will step back from casual nudity scenes is premature.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2021-09-08, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Rafe Judkins said in the Instagram Q&A that it should be appropriate to watch with teenagers
, and I heard the rating for the show is supposed to be TV-14, so while there might be a boob or a butt here and there (or a shirtless Rand, for that matter) I think expecting it to fall far short of Game of Thrones in terms of sexual violence is fairly warranted.
SpoilerI kind of want to keep the whole "I am a woman" raising of the Amyrlin toplessness scene, as silly as it is, since I am very much on board with using female nudity in a ritual that's supposed to communicate paramount female power; it makes sense in the context of the fiction, it's thematically resonant with the nature of the Aes Sedai as the organization, and there are plenty of historical and mythological examples of female nudity as a means to demonstrate female power, especially in pagan practices. So far I also have faith in this crew so far to pull it off in a non-skeevy way.
The fact that every testing ter'angreal seems to be allergic to dresses can go, though.
I also hope to see Mat and Tylin adapted into the traumatic nightmare it always should have been. I understand completely if they won't, either because it's not terribly relevant to the plot or because they frankly don't want to touch the whole deal with a 10-foot pole (again, VERY understandable) but I will still be disappointed and consider it a missed opportunity to not give that subplot the second chance I think it deserves. (cue Lews Therin: "Why do we get adapted again?")
re: rumors of Galadwyn - it probably won't happen, but I would be perfectly fine with them cutting Gawyn out entirely, lmao. Galad was always the more interesting brother, and he actually gets to have a character arc, and growth, and does things other than be a perpetual obstacle for other characters to trip over.
At the very least, I can hope with how much they're fluffing up Egwene this early that they'll have to make Gawyn more palatable to make it halfway believable that she apparently falls in Twu Wuv with this useless idiot sack of bricks.
Edit: I took a second look and couldn't find any supporting evidence for the claim I had heard of a TV-14 rating so that's retracted for now, but the showrunner's comment is still somewhat indicative of the direction it will go in terms of content.Last edited by Ashen Lilies; 2021-09-08 at 01:57 PM.
Originally Posted by Lord Magtok
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2021-09-08, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Well, here's a pretty clear source for the TV-14 rating.
Spoiler: As for the restI view verifying womanhood by checking boobs to be about as nonsensical as a genital check in the bathroom (worse in fact, are they saying there are no flat-chested Aes Sedai or Sitters? Anywhere?) and worse is a real thing being proposed today in circles I shall not elaborate on in this forum, so I don't expect Amazon to wade into that quagmire with their strong empowered girlboss ruling council. But I guess we'll see.
As for Mat and Tylin, the entire gross arc honestly served no purpose except to add a starting point to the arc of his relationship with Tuon, i.e. where she started from a place of disrespect and ended up respecting him. Literally there was nothing else to it - the relationship wasn't keeping him in Ebou Dar, it wasn't keeping him in the Tarasin palace, it didn't change his character in any way, and it just made Nynaeve and Elayne look awful too once they learned about it and did nothing. So for the Tuon bit, there's a lot of other ways to do that, especially since we later found out that she was being guided to him by a prophecy of her own as a reason for her to take that initial interest. I genuinely don't know how they keep the assault without making Tylin explicitly awful, like Darkfriend awful, though I suppose that's always a possibility.
For Galadwyn I really do think it will strengthen the relationship considerably as both men practically have half an arc. It wouldn't take much tweaking to take the guy who was massively disillusioned with two Amyrlins in a row to consider giving the Children a look instead. And part of me is also hoping that, as badass aswas, they find a way to not have her go out in the show only to hand the stole over to someone who blatantly never wanted it anyway and probably wouldn't last 5 more years in it.SpoilerEgwene's end
100% agreed on testing ter'angreal.Last edited by Psyren; 2021-09-08 at 03:01 PM.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-09-08, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
D'oh. Well there we go then.
Spoiler
In real life, yes, I agree it's nonsense. I am trans myself. But the Aes Sedai are supposed to be nonsense in some ways. They're an incomplete shell of an organization with many, many stupid traditions and prejudices, because the world is Out Of Balance tm and that's bad. But it would be difficult to frame it in a way that doesn't seem like a full endorsement, and it might well be too hairy to touch, sure.
Galadwyn: The Amyrlin Seat being sweet on the Lord Captain Commander of the Children of the Light (and bonding him as a Warder!) would be one hell of a way to cap off that particular ideological conflict.
Last edited by Ashen Lilies; 2021-09-08 at 03:14 PM.
Originally Posted by Lord Magtok
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2021-09-08, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
I agree, there's value in portraying "here's the bad / dumb tradition we'll have examined and possibly abolished by series end." Jordan himself did this with several of their other practices.
But there's also value imo in "here's issue from the books that actually still causes real world harm today - let's avoid even appearing to reinforce it, even if we plan to subvert that later on."Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-09-08, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
In the same context there is a particular villain who I definitely think should find her way onto the cutting room floor.
SpoilerAlmost all of the reborn Forsaken could go, really. Moridin is an important character, but none of the others, not even Cyndane, do enough to justify their space in the story. Osan'gar and Cyndane at least have the advantage of being merely irrelevant and not actively odious the way Aran'gar is though. Just make Moridin a one-off effort for the Dark One's particular favorite lunatic.Last edited by Ashen Lilies; 2021-09-08 at 03:38 PM.
Originally Posted by Lord Magtok
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2021-09-08, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Re GOT and toning things down, remember that book Dany is 13.
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2021-09-08, 03:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Yeah, the show aged her up and then made her not consent to Khal Drogo anyway, despite what the books took pains to show from her POV.
And thanks for reminding me of yet another one, Cersei and Jaime in the sept of Baelor.
Look, we could go back and forth forever on whether GoT was "edgier" than ASoIaF or vice-versa, but what matters for this thread is that WoT should be... not that.
Agreed.Last edited by Psyren; 2021-09-08 at 03:56 PM.
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2021-09-09, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Agreed. And I say that as someone who largely didn't mind the places GoT went. WoT isn't any less dark as a story, but it shied away from specific types of violence and that should be maintained with the show.
While we can disagree on what constitutes an integral part of the story and what isn't, there's a lot of pretty sexist stuff that can be instantly yoinked and the story either won't change or will be improved by the removal.
SpoilerOne case I wouldn't care either way is the sweat tents. That can easily be placed under "different culture is different" and be handled with carefully shot camera angles. It's not necessary for the story, but I wouldn't complain if it was kept in.
The Aes Sedai chest baring was stupid even when I read it as a hormone addled 16 year old.
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2021-09-09, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-09-09, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
I actually think those are important to keep and a phenomenal setting detail:
SpoilerSweat tents serve as a great microcosm of Aiel culture - they are a desert-dwelling people who care equally about community and conserving water, and moreover the fact that sweat tents can be used by anyone regardless of rank or status (e.g. Rhuarc can just show up, which sends Egwene flying out and makes the Wise Ones cry laughing) shows how little the Aiel care about such things . It also illustrates another reason why they get along with Borderlanders so much - the proud warrior cultures tend to not be delicate about trivial things like men and women bathing together because they have bigger problems with the Blight on their doorsteps. That common ground is part of the reason they as a people regard Lan so highly. (And sure, they ended up fighting Borderlanders during the "Aiel War," but they collectively wrote that off as wetlanders gonna wetland and be weird about some silly things like protecting Treekillers because of a treaty or something.)
Because sweat tents actually serve a narrative/worldbuilding purpose, they are a way to add cheesecake to the series (because let's face it, cheesecake sells) that doesn't feel gratuitous or pandering. Best of all, you're as likely to see male nudity there as female, letting the show tacitly acknowledge that other gazes exist. It's win/win/win.
For this reason I expect the Shienaran baths to show up too.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-09-09, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-09-09, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
SpoilerThe problem with the sweat tents is that it would be very difficult to shoot those scenes without the actors actually getting completely naked, which is often a non-starter. Bath scenes, by contrast, are often shot with the actors quite clothed, because a flesh colored bathing suit is more or less indistinguishable from skin so long as it remains underwater.
Regardless, this is a TV-14 show, which means there will be very little actual nudity. There may be a lot of implied nudity, such as the such with Egwene at 1:07 in the trailer (in which the actress was certainly not nude or even likely topless at any point), but any actual nudity, especially frontal nudity, won't show up on screen unless they pump the ratings in later seasons.
In all honestly, based on the shots in the trailer, the show is actually going for a fairly conservative approach to the visuals all things considered. In particular, the outfits the characters are wearing are very restrained for a fantasy context (the average modern fantasy show is constantly reminding the audience how staggeringly attractive their cast is).
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2021-09-09, 06:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Uh, you're talking about a tent full of steam. Bits and bathing suits would be no less obscured; there are sauna scenes on TV all the time. They could even add in algode towels if need be.
(I wasn't advocating for full-frontal in any event - my exact phrase was "cheesecake.")Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-09-21, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
SpoilerI had forgotten this; absolute predetermination is a funny thing. It does remind me that there's a children's book series that kicks off with a similar premise: the first book of the Hamster Princess series, 'Harriet the Invincible,' stars a princess who gets hit with a Sleeping Beauty curse. Eventually it is explained to her that the wicked fairy's magic is absolutely unbreakable, her fate is inevitable, and that she will, no matter what they do, prick her finger and fall asleep on her 16th birthday. So she takes that as license to go all out and takes up monster-fighting, cliff-diving, and every other reckless hobby she can, secure in the fact that the curse will keep her intact until then. It's a cute series.
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2021-09-22, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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