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2021-06-14, 07:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
What's great about it is that it isn't always beneficial to our heroes. It's just "what must happen to make all those prophecies come true" If there's a prophecy that you're going to be twice marked with herons, you'd better get to work tatooing those things yourself or the Pattern is gonna come down and brand them into your palms. It isn't just a case of succeeding at something because you're a main character. In fact, it's kind of the opposite - the main characters try to do something, anything, else....and then the Pattern says NOPE and drags them back on the correct path. As painfully as possible.
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2021-06-14, 12:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Narratively its an interesting setup for the reasons you mentioned, however to me the problem I have is how big the temptation is to just rely on it for sloppy writing. Want an event to happen? BLOOP! Its going on because taveren. Want them to escape a situation you accidentally wrote them into? BEEP! They are out of it because rocks fall everyone but them dies. Because taveren. Part of the challenge of being a good writer is to establish a believable path from start to finish where everything makes sense according to the rules of the setting. But when one of the rules is, "These guys cant die because of fate, and will always figure out what they need to do and always find what they need to find because plot" it makes things a bit janky. im not saying jordan did those things, im just saying that establishing that sort of thing in your setting is probably not a good idea generally because it removes a lot of the need to write a proper chain of events to make things happen.
As a random example, our heroes are stuck in a castle courtyard. The walls are covered in archers with bows drawn back, the courtyard is ringed by armed foot soldiers. How will they escape? Suddenly every bow breaks in such a way that the arrows hit the footmen in the courtyard below, wounding them all. The panic and screaming startled the team of horses hitched to a battering ram and they ran face first into the gate, smashing it open. Our heroes run for it and escape when the people pouring boiling oil slip and are 3 seconds late tipping the cauldron over, only managing to block the path behind them. They manage to reach the dock just as a ship captained by a man who hates this nation is leaving, they make the leap to the ship as it pulls out of harbor and they sail off into the sunset. That is exactly the sort of lunatic stuff that could very well take place in this setting. It generally DOESNT I dont think but it could and nobody in setting would be shocked for long because taveren."Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2021-06-14, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
There are some questionable T'V moments in the story but I wouldn't count Thom's illness as one of them. He's being driven by guilt towards failing to protect the Emonds Fielders in book 1, on top of just general depression over his life getting completely upended (by yet another T'V) in Book 2. In short, he starts pushing himself way too hard because he stops caring if he lives or dies. He therefore ignores Mat's wishes to stay inside, exposing himself to the elements until his cough gets so bad that they're forced to find a Wise Woman.
Yes, the T'V probability manipulation had a lot to do with that sequence of events turning out as well as they did. But it's not like it forced either Thom or Mat to act out of character. In fact, if Mat had used his brain to begin with, he'd have known to check places like that for a group being led by Nynaeve in the first place.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-06-14, 02:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
And as noted by Traab, it isn't like these events wouldn't happen if TV didn't exist. They would and the only explanation is "there wouldn't be a story otherwise". Goku doesn't arrive on planet Namek a week before the Ginyu Force because they cease to be a threat if he's already there. He doesn't arrive a week after the Ginyus because if he does our heroes are dead and the the bad guys have scarpered with the Dragon Balls. No, he arrives on the planet at the exact moment that his friends are defeated but not dead.
Stories run on that kind of coincidence and we don't even question it. WoT just happens to codify that coincidence into a cosmic force.
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2021-06-14, 03:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-06-15, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
There's another element here that builds off an earlier "eureka!" moment of Mat's that you may have forgotten (don't remember exactly which chapter it was in). Earlier, he had been trying to search methodically for someone to no avail, only to find what he needed when he stumbled into an inn at random - that's how his Tav'eren nature works. This is the same sort of thing - he's forced to seek medical help, and grabs one at essentially random. His luck means it is what he needs.
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2021-06-15, 05:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Yeah its been a thousand years since I read them, but iirc, the three amigos have three very different expressions of how their reality warping works. Perrin is a natural leader that can convince nearly anyone to follow him. It made its first appearance in a later book back at the two rivers, but was REALLY highlighted when he came within a whisker of convincing the travelling people/tinkers/whatever they were called, the nonviolent ones, to do something they normally would refuse utterly out of hand. Even the guy himself was shocked that he was tempted. Matt, as established here, has his absurd luck twisting events around him generally in his favor. He has other bonuses but they arent really taveren powers, just other stuff he also has access to. Rand meanwhile is chaos incarnate. I think its because he is so strongly taveren that its uncontrolled, random stuff keeps happening, good bad or indifferent. Reality just warps around him and for a good distance away as well. Literally anything can happen and does.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2021-06-16, 03:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
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2021-06-17, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
With Mat the feeling I get is that if he wagers on it he's guaranteed to win. That's how he beat those guys in the practice yard, they were more skilled fighters but since they made it a bet everything went wrong for them.
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2021-06-17, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
That was more than just luck. He was being helped no doubt, but it's not like Gawyn tripped over a rock and clonked Galad unconscious with the hilt of his sword. Mat really is a Warder-level fighter with a quarterstaff, whereas Galad and Gawyn were still Warders-in-training who went into the fight far more confident than they should have been. If they'd taken Mat seriously from the start they could have fought in concert and easily beaten him - instead, they rushed in early and Mat gets an early knockout on Gawyn. After that it's one on one, and Mat is very slightly better than Galad.
As to why Mat is a Warder-level quarterstaff master? Some of it is his Manetheren heritage showing through, a lot of it is that his father is an even better staff fighter who trained him well, and some of it is Ta'veren luck.
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2021-06-17, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
I read the first 3 books about 10 years ago and had more-or-less forgotten about them until I stumbled in here and binged the last two books' worth of AES's Let's Read. With that as my frame of reference, I really hope you guys are right and that Mat's fighting skills get set up better in the show, because having the explanation backfilled feels like a real Mary Sue move.
I'm also kind of annoyed about him having those skills in the first place - it feels silly to me that you'd have a character who has luck superpowers, but is also an expert fighter by adolescence.
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2021-06-17, 07:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Yeah I get the feeling some of Mat's skill wasn't thought of by Jordan back when he wrote Book 1. Here's the training quote:
Originally Posted by TDR
Originally Posted by TEotWPlague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-06-18, 01:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Starting him out with a quarterstaff in the show seems wise. Especially since Mat pretty much never uses a bow - that's more Perrin's thing. Mat is good with staff and daggers as befits the Rogue archetype he's portraying, while Perrin uses axe and bow to fit the Ranger/Druid archetype he follows.
Making it clearer that he's fighting above his normal level of skill wouldn't hurt either.
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2021-06-18, 05:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Yeah I get the feeling some of Mat's skill wasn't thought of by Jordan back when he wrote Book 1. Here's the training quote:
But to be fair. It was done moderatly subtly. And it was on something from book 1.
Im ready to cut him some slack on that.
For that matter, it absolutely makes sense if Mat prefers to murder Trollocks from a safe distance. A bow is the wise choice if you can use it.
A quarterstaff less so against something brutishly tough.
Anyway.. yeah.. a retcon. But one thats easy to explain away.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2021-06-18, 07:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Spoiler
Oddly Perrin never uses a bow (that I can remember), he just hangs around Two Rivers bowmen all the time, since he's the one that went home.
Mat never really uses one either, but he does keep collecting bowstaves as he travels around. Maybe that's just his subconscious homesickness - making bows like they have at home means that home is still there with him.
Edit: Correction, Perrin does shoot at least a DarkhoundLast edited by Misery Esquire; 2021-06-18 at 11:39 AM.
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2021-06-18, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Perrin and Mat both demonstrate their proficiency with bows, even back in the first book. But the superior archer among the three is Rand:
Originally Posted by TEotWmultiverse of madnessportal stone world in book 2, where he frustrates Lanfear by ignoring saidin in favor of his arrows despite her best efforts to put them in danger.
The thing though is - in Rand's case, the books do a much better job of setting up his archery skill before it becomes a plot point. All three boys opt to take bows when leaving home, Rand has memories of his father winning Bel Tine's archery, and we get the training scenes with Lan. All of these occur before Book Two's sniper scene. Mat's quarterstaff background meanwhile is hurriedly explained in the same chapter where he needs to use it, which isn't nearly as effective from a storytelling standpoint.
Perrin's marksmanship also becomes a minor plot point, though I'll hold off on that example because I can't remember if AES is there yet (it's in this book).Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-06-18, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
I wonder if a part of it is, matt never saw a quarterstaff used to kill. He has killed many animals with a bow and arrow, he knows deep down and on the surface that the bow is a weapon for killing. But a staff? If all he ever got was training and sparring and village contests where at most there was a concussion, i could see him going for the more lethal option, due to a total lack of experience in being an adventurer. But overall yeah, it comes off as a retcon that it never got mentioned before he needed the skill. Heck, if anything it could have been done as FORESHADOWING his memories of previous lives coming back and effecting his skills and knowledge. I know it wasnt, but it totally could have been if say, egwyne had been there and when he said that about his dad, given him a puzzled look and said, "Your dad never won quarterstaffs matt." or even just the puzzled look and kept her gob shut. It would have made for an excellent hint about the after effects of everything and what was to come for him.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2021-06-18, 12:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
He does actually / specifically remember his dad training him how to use a quarterstaff to kill. Quote since AES passed this part:
Originally Posted by TDR
(And since he is called "Mat" in the memory and his father is in it, it's definitely one of his, rather than one of the past lives.)Last edited by Psyren; 2021-06-18 at 12:14 PM.
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2021-06-18, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
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2021-06-18, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
To be fair to Mat, thrashing 2 trained swordsmen with a quarter-staff is something that should happen if said person had been given training by someone who is very good at quarterstaffing. Reach is just that important. Randland is stupidly obsessed with swords as the "only proper weapon" and the Aiel equally opposite in mind.
Mat doesn't really think of a quarter-staff as military weapon so bringing one along on an adventure probably doesn't occur to him. The stories he has heard mostly focuses on swordsmanship I bet. And I bet Gawyn and Galad view it similarly. That's why they both think "we are swordsmen, we got this". Mat being lucky means a lot, but had Mat been completely hale, and the swordsmen more vary I'd put odds on the quarterstaff. The only thing making it an fair fight is in fact that there is 2 swordsmen. At only one been entirely chanceless.
The Warden trainer in chief knows this. And which is why he has the students recite historic precedence.
Also Mat may not be one cut out for regular self-motivated training, but we also find out Mat says a lot of things about what Mat would never do and ends up doing them anyway. I suspect Abell makes his son train with him, and Mat doesn't particularly enjoy hard work so has no occasion to reflect over it. Basically I think he has been trained by a master quarterstaff-man, does not realise it and subtly resents having had to do that work.
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2021-06-18, 02:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Oh I know it wasnt foreshadowing, im saying that it easily could have been made such. A memory that didnt happen to "him" that floated up out of the confusion of his current physical and mental health etc etc etc. It would have worked much better that way imo. It would have stood out like it does now, as seeming to be a bit of a retcon, then later on when we get the reveal about his past lives, it all falls into place. All it would have taken to plant the seed for the future would have been egwyne or pigtail puller being present with an odd look on their face that at the time could have been dismissed as surprise he beat two warders in training but in hindsight was confusion over how matt, a boy they knew didnt have much quarterstaff training if at all, was able to whup warder butt.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2021-06-18, 02:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
The issue I take with both of these is - if he didn't already know how good he was, and he furthermore didn't even like using a quarterstaff, then challenging two trained swordsmen and betting what was essentially his life-savings and only hope of freedom on the outcome would be pretty wacky, even by Mat standards.
Rather, for me the simplest fix isn't having his skill appear from nowhere or his friends be confused by his sudden proficiency - it's simply having him know he's skilled (show the training) and thus bring a staff with him initially, then lose it in the chaos of Shadar Logoth or along the Arinelle. Same outcome as before, but better setup/foreshadowing for the 2:1 Warder Fight in book 3. And you can even keep him from replacing his staff until Tar Valon if needed, since one of the effects of Mordeth's cursed dagger is to make him eschew other weapons:
Originally Posted by TEotWLast edited by Psyren; 2021-06-18 at 02:57 PM.
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2021-06-18, 05:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Like I said, it would be confusion on his part. A previous life tidbit mangled with his current one. He "remembers" being trained with a quarterstaff by his dad who was the best around. But he wasnt. He was trained in previous lives though and thats where the muscle memory and skill comes from. The two rivers ladies being there and seeming confused by his statement would be the hint that something is wrong, and a sign of what eventually comes through in later books (I think book 4, maybe 5?) There were the other hints as I recall, randomly yelling out stuff in the old tongue or being able to translate it, this would have been another and thus no plot hole or retcon. Instead, it was another hint that something is up with matt and its something big.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2021-06-18, 05:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
You're starting to lean into spoilers ahead of where AES is, may want to move it to spoiler tags.
If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2021-06-18, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Warhammer 40,000 Campaign Skirmish Game: Warpstrike
My Spelljammer stuff (including an orbit tracker), 2E AD&D spreadsheet, and Vault of the Drow maps are available in my Dropbox. Feel free to use or not use it as you see fit!
Thri-Kreen Ranger/Psionicist by me, based off of Rich's A Monster for Every Season
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2021-06-19, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
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2021-06-19, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Yeah Traab I'd spoil the latter half of that.
That could work too, but the only issue is that his past-life bleed isn't actually that strong
Spoileruntil the Eelfinn pull them in to spackle his memory in Rhuidean. Before then it's just random smatterings of Old Tongue coming through; certainly not strong enough for anti-Warder combat training. So this approach clashes with one of his accidental "wishes" being for exactly that.
That would be a major plot point, and it's definitely a book or two later but good callout.
The one I was referring to from this book wasSpoilerPerrin killing an onrushing Darkhound with his bow, illustrating how hard they are to kill by conventional means even with someone who nails every shot, and thereby setting up how OP balefire is when Moiraine deletes the rest of them.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-06-19, 11:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
SpoilerOne thing to add to this: The memories the Matt ends up with from the 'Finns aren't his past lives. Those memories are the memories taken from others who have visited the 'finns tower to bargain with them in the past. So the much more concrete memories that come in the future are actually completely disconnected from Matt's random old tongue outbursts. Which makes the bits of old tongue in the early books feel a little bit weird and unexplained, rather than a foreshadowing of his future power. I feel like this is one of those artifacts of Jordan having an idea of where he wanted Matt to end up, but not a solid outline of how to get there. I could see the TV series simplifying that and changing it to the much more logical "unlocking past lives", but in cannon it was not that at all.If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2021-06-20, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
I mean, a quarterstaff is not the thing you want fighting blades, he uses it because it's a sparring match, when Mat has to fight for his life he uses his knives.
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2021-06-20, 04:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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