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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Honestly, thats my favorite thing, how the author uses "ta'veren stuff" to explain why the good guys survive and constantly stumble over just what they need to move the story forward. Im pretty sure the actual definition of the word in the old tongue is plot armor. He doesnt even try to hide it, its an integral part of the storyline that it must and does happen.
    What's great about it is that it isn't always beneficial to our heroes. It's just "what must happen to make all those prophecies come true" If there's a prophecy that you're going to be twice marked with herons, you'd better get to work tatooing those things yourself or the Pattern is gonna come down and brand them into your palms. It isn't just a case of succeeding at something because you're a main character. In fact, it's kind of the opposite - the main characters try to do something, anything, else....and then the Pattern says NOPE and drags them back on the correct path. As painfully as possible.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    What's great about it is that it isn't always beneficial to our heroes. It's just "what must happen to make all those prophecies come true" If there's a prophecy that you're going to be twice marked with herons, you'd better get to work tatooing those things yourself or the Pattern is gonna come down and brand them into your palms. It isn't just a case of succeeding at something because you're a main character. In fact, it's kind of the opposite - the main characters try to do something, anything, else....and then the Pattern says NOPE and drags them back on the correct path. As painfully as possible.
    Narratively its an interesting setup for the reasons you mentioned, however to me the problem I have is how big the temptation is to just rely on it for sloppy writing. Want an event to happen? BLOOP! Its going on because taveren. Want them to escape a situation you accidentally wrote them into? BEEP! They are out of it because rocks fall everyone but them dies. Because taveren. Part of the challenge of being a good writer is to establish a believable path from start to finish where everything makes sense according to the rules of the setting. But when one of the rules is, "These guys cant die because of fate, and will always figure out what they need to do and always find what they need to find because plot" it makes things a bit janky. im not saying jordan did those things, im just saying that establishing that sort of thing in your setting is probably not a good idea generally because it removes a lot of the need to write a proper chain of events to make things happen.

    As a random example, our heroes are stuck in a castle courtyard. The walls are covered in archers with bows drawn back, the courtyard is ringed by armed foot soldiers. How will they escape? Suddenly every bow breaks in such a way that the arrows hit the footmen in the courtyard below, wounding them all. The panic and screaming startled the team of horses hitched to a battering ram and they ran face first into the gate, smashing it open. Our heroes run for it and escape when the people pouring boiling oil slip and are 3 seconds late tipping the cauldron over, only managing to block the path behind them. They manage to reach the dock just as a ship captained by a man who hates this nation is leaving, they make the leap to the ship as it pulls out of harbor and they sail off into the sunset. That is exactly the sort of lunatic stuff that could very well take place in this setting. It generally DOESNT I dont think but it could and nobody in setting would be shocked for long because taveren.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    There are some questionable T'V moments in the story but I wouldn't count Thom's illness as one of them. He's being driven by guilt towards failing to protect the Emonds Fielders in book 1, on top of just general depression over his life getting completely upended (by yet another T'V) in Book 2. In short, he starts pushing himself way too hard because he stops caring if he lives or dies. He therefore ignores Mat's wishes to stay inside, exposing himself to the elements until his cough gets so bad that they're forced to find a Wise Woman.

    Yes, the T'V probability manipulation had a lot to do with that sequence of events turning out as well as they did. But it's not like it forced either Thom or Mat to act out of character. In fact, if Mat had used his brain to begin with, he'd have known to check places like that for a group being led by Nynaeve in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    And as noted by Traab, it isn't like these events wouldn't happen if TV didn't exist. They would and the only explanation is "there wouldn't be a story otherwise". Goku doesn't arrive on planet Namek a week before the Ginyu Force because they cease to be a threat if he's already there. He doesn't arrive a week after the Ginyus because if he does our heroes are dead and the the bad guys have scarpered with the Dragon Balls. No, he arrives on the planet at the exact moment that his friends are defeated but not dead.

    Stories run on that kind of coincidence and we don't even question it. WoT just happens to codify that coincidence into a cosmic force.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    As a random example, our heroes are stuck in a castle courtyard. The walls are covered in archers with bows drawn back, the courtyard is ringed by armed foot soldiers. How will they escape? Suddenly every bow breaks in such a way that the arrows hit the footmen in the courtyard below, wounding them all. The panic and screaming startled the team of horses hitched to a battering ram and they ran face first into the gate, smashing it open. Our heroes run for it and escape when the people pouring boiling oil slip and are 3 seconds late tipping the cauldron over, only managing to block the path behind them. They manage to reach the dock just as a ship captained by a man who hates this nation is leaving, they make the leap to the ship as it pulls out of harbor and they sail off into the sunset. That is exactly the sort of lunatic stuff that could very well take place in this setting. It generally DOESNT I dont think but it could and nobody in setting would be shocked for long because taveren.
    Somewhere in the middle of this I started imagining it was Jack Sparrow and Co. Kinda says a lot about the Pirate movies now that I think about it XD.
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    This is an image of Wookietank the Destroyer of Fortresses engraved in sandstone. Wookietank the Destroyer of Fortresses is leaving Trotknives. Trotknives is on fire and full of goblins. This image refers to the destruction of Trotknives in late winter of 109 by Wookietank the Destroyer of Fortresses.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    Chapter 52: In Search of a Remedy

    It's been so long since I've read this book I don't remember how it is Thom got sick, or maybe this is when we learn he got sick? I genuinely don't remember. Anyway, Thom is sick and Mat has to get him to a healer, and wouldn't you know it, there's a reputable one named Mother Guenna nearby. Mat takes him to her house and she forces medicine down his throat despite Thom's best attempts to avoid swallowing the foul tasting stuff. Genna offhandedly mentions having met two girls who share Mat's accent and he soon realizes that Team Magikarp had been staying in this very house. Against Guenna's protests that she's been told to say nothing of what happened for fear of losing her tongue, Mat gets the story out of her about what happened and where the girls have been taken. If you are a prospective villain reading this, that's why you don't leave witnesses.

    Mat decides to go rescue the girls, and he leaves Thom in Guenna's care, much to the gleeman's chagrin. It's going to take a lot of skill and a lot luck to sneak into a fortress like the stone of Tear, but luck is something Mat has in spades.
    There's another element here that builds off an earlier "eureka!" moment of Mat's that you may have forgotten (don't remember exactly which chapter it was in). Earlier, he had been trying to search methodically for someone to no avail, only to find what he needed when he stumbled into an inn at random - that's how his Tav'eren nature works. This is the same sort of thing - he's forced to seek medical help, and grabs one at essentially random. His luck means it is what he needs.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    There's another element here that builds off an earlier "eureka!" moment of Mat's that you may have forgotten (don't remember exactly which chapter it was in). Earlier, he had been trying to search methodically for someone to no avail, only to find what he needed when he stumbled into an inn at random - that's how his Tav'eren nature works. This is the same sort of thing - he's forced to seek medical help, and grabs one at essentially random. His luck means it is what he needs.
    Yeah its been a thousand years since I read them, but iirc, the three amigos have three very different expressions of how their reality warping works. Perrin is a natural leader that can convince nearly anyone to follow him. It made its first appearance in a later book back at the two rivers, but was REALLY highlighted when he came within a whisker of convincing the travelling people/tinkers/whatever they were called, the nonviolent ones, to do something they normally would refuse utterly out of hand. Even the guy himself was shocked that he was tempted. Matt, as established here, has his absurd luck twisting events around him generally in his favor. He has other bonuses but they arent really taveren powers, just other stuff he also has access to. Rand meanwhile is chaos incarnate. I think its because he is so strongly taveren that its uncontrolled, random stuff keeps happening, good bad or indifferent. Reality just warps around him and for a good distance away as well. Literally anything can happen and does.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Yeah its been a thousand years since I read them, but iirc, the three amigos have three very different expressions of how their reality warping works. Perrin is a natural leader that can convince nearly anyone to follow him. It made its first appearance in a later book back at the two rivers, but was REALLY highlighted when he came within a whisker of convincing the travelling people/tinkers/whatever they were called, the nonviolent ones, to do something they normally would refuse utterly out of hand. Even the guy himself was shocked that he was tempted. Matt, as established here, has his absurd luck twisting events around him generally in his favor. He has other bonuses but they arent really taveren powers, just other stuff he also has access to. Rand meanwhile is chaos incarnate. I think its because he is so strongly taveren that its uncontrolled, random stuff keeps happening, good bad or indifferent. Reality just warps around him and for a good distance away as well. Literally anything can happen and does.
    Spoiler: Rand's T'V powers
    Show
    Rand is also more capable of weaponizing his powers. There's more than one occasion where he tries to crush people with the weight of his reality warping...and when it doesn't work he's very surprised.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    With Mat the feeling I get is that if he wagers on it he's guaranteed to win. That's how he beat those guys in the practice yard, they were more skilled fighters but since they made it a bet everything went wrong for them.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    With Mat the feeling I get is that if he wagers on it he's guaranteed to win. That's how he beat those guys in the practice yard, they were more skilled fighters but since they made it a bet everything went wrong for them.
    That was more than just luck. He was being helped no doubt, but it's not like Gawyn tripped over a rock and clonked Galad unconscious with the hilt of his sword. Mat really is a Warder-level fighter with a quarterstaff, whereas Galad and Gawyn were still Warders-in-training who went into the fight far more confident than they should have been. If they'd taken Mat seriously from the start they could have fought in concert and easily beaten him - instead, they rushed in early and Mat gets an early knockout on Gawyn. After that it's one on one, and Mat is very slightly better than Galad.

    As to why Mat is a Warder-level quarterstaff master? Some of it is his Manetheren heritage showing through, a lot of it is that his father is an even better staff fighter who trained him well, and some of it is Ta'veren luck.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    As to why Mat is a Warder-level quarterstaff master? Some of it is his Manetheren heritage showing through, a lot of it is that his father is an even better staff fighter who trained him well, and some of it is Ta'veren luck.
    I read the first 3 books about 10 years ago and had more-or-less forgotten about them until I stumbled in here and binged the last two books' worth of AES's Let's Read. With that as my frame of reference, I really hope you guys are right and that Mat's fighting skills get set up better in the show, because having the explanation backfilled feels like a real Mary Sue move.

    I'm also kind of annoyed about him having those skills in the first place - it feels silly to me that you'd have a character who has luck superpowers, but is also an expert fighter by adolescence.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Yeah I get the feeling some of Mat's skill wasn't thought of by Jordan back when he wrote Book 1. Here's the training quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by TDR
    “Not as good as my da. He’s won the quarterstaff at Bel Tine every year as long as I can remember, except once or twice when Rand’s da did.” That interested look came back into Gawyn’s eyes, and Mat wished he had never mentioned Tam al’Thor. The Aes Sedai and the Accepted were all still clustered around Galad. “I … I must have hurt him badly. I did not mean to do that.”
    If Mat had as good a training foundation as this implies, you'd think a quarterstaff would be the first thing he'd grab when they were leaving Emond's Field. Instead, he only packed his bow, and even said this:

    Quote Originally Posted by TEotW
    “Practicing,” Mat snickered, but held up his hands soothingly when Perrin raised his head. “As you say. It’s just as well one of us knows how to use a real weapon.”

    “That bow is a real weapon,” Lan said suddenly. He propped an arm across the saddle of his tall black and regarded them gravely. “So are the slings I’ve seen you village boys with. Just because you never used them for anything but hunting rabbits or chasing a wolf away from the sheep makes no difference. Anything can be a weapon, if the man or woman who holds it has the nerve and will to make it so. Trollocs aside, you had better have that clear in your minds before we leave the Two Rivers, before we leave Emond’s Field, if you want to reach Tar Valon alive.”

    His face and voice, cold as death and hard as a rough-hewn gravestone, stifled their smiles and their tongues. Perrin grimaced and pulled his cloak back over the axe. Mat stared at his feet and stirred the straw on the stable floor with his toe. The Warder grunted and went back to his checking, and the silence lengthened.

    “It isn’t much like the stories,” Mat said, finally.
    So yeah, this level of skill on his part is almost certainly a retcon - one I hope the show does a better job of setting up in the first place. (Granted, at least some of it was due to his past lives bleeding through, and his luck besides.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Starting him out with a quarterstaff in the show seems wise. Especially since Mat pretty much never uses a bow - that's more Perrin's thing. Mat is good with staff and daggers as befits the Rogue archetype he's portraying, while Perrin uses axe and bow to fit the Ranger/Druid archetype he follows.

    Making it clearer that he's fighting above his normal level of skill wouldn't hurt either.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Yeah I get the feeling some of Mat's skill wasn't thought of by Jordan back when he wrote Book 1. Here's the training quote:
    Its absolutely a retcon.
    But to be fair. It was done moderatly subtly. And it was on something from book 1.
    Im ready to cut him some slack on that.

    For that matter, it absolutely makes sense if Mat prefers to murder Trollocks from a safe distance. A bow is the wise choice if you can use it.
    A quarterstaff less so against something brutishly tough.

    Anyway.. yeah.. a retcon. But one thats easy to explain away.
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Starting him out with a quarterstaff in the show seems wise. Especially since Mat pretty much never uses a bow - that's more Perrin's thing. Mat is good with staff and daggers as befits the Rogue archetype he's portraying, while Perrin uses axe and bow to fit the Ranger/Druid archetype he follows.
    Spoiler
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    Oddly Perrin never uses a bow (that I can remember), he just hangs around Two Rivers bowmen all the time, since he's the one that went home.

    Mat never really uses one either, but he does keep collecting bowstaves as he travels around. Maybe that's just his subconscious homesickness - making bows like they have at home means that home is still there with him.

    Edit: Correction, Perrin does shoot at least a Darkhound
    Last edited by Misery Esquire; 2021-06-18 at 11:39 AM.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Perrin and Mat both demonstrate their proficiency with bows, even back in the first book. But the superior archer among the three is Rand:

    Quote Originally Posted by TEotW
    At their first stop, before the sun sank, Lan began teaching the boys what to do with the weapons they carried. He started with the bow. After watching Mat put three arrows into a knot the size of a man's head, on the fissured trunk of a dead leatherleaf, at a hundred paces, he told the others to take their turns. Perrin duplicated Mat's feat, and Rand, summoning the flame and the void, the empty calm that let the bow become a part of him, or him of it, clustered his three where the points almost touched one another. Mat gave him a congratulatory clap on the shoulder.
    Rand of course is better than them because the skills of centering himself imparted by his blademaster father are easily transferable to archery. (And to male spellcasting, as it turns out - go figure.) His marksmanship then becomes a plot point later in the multiverse of madness portal stone world in book 2, where he frustrates Lanfear by ignoring saidin in favor of his arrows despite her best efforts to put them in danger.

    The thing though is - in Rand's case, the books do a much better job of setting up his archery skill before it becomes a plot point. All three boys opt to take bows when leaving home, Rand has memories of his father winning Bel Tine's archery, and we get the training scenes with Lan. All of these occur before Book Two's sniper scene. Mat's quarterstaff background meanwhile is hurriedly explained in the same chapter where he needs to use it, which isn't nearly as effective from a storytelling standpoint.

    Perrin's marksmanship also becomes a minor plot point, though I'll hold off on that example because I can't remember if AES is there yet (it's in this book).
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    I wonder if a part of it is, matt never saw a quarterstaff used to kill. He has killed many animals with a bow and arrow, he knows deep down and on the surface that the bow is a weapon for killing. But a staff? If all he ever got was training and sparring and village contests where at most there was a concussion, i could see him going for the more lethal option, due to a total lack of experience in being an adventurer. But overall yeah, it comes off as a retcon that it never got mentioned before he needed the skill. Heck, if anything it could have been done as FORESHADOWING his memories of previous lives coming back and effecting his skills and knowledge. I know it wasnt, but it totally could have been if say, egwyne had been there and when he said that about his dad, given him a puzzled look and said, "Your dad never won quarterstaffs matt." or even just the puzzled look and kept her gob shut. It would have made for an excellent hint about the after effects of everything and what was to come for him.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    He does actually / specifically remember his dad training him how to use a quarterstaff to kill. Quote since AES passed this part:

    Quote Originally Posted by TDR
    Mat thrust with the quarterstaff, catching the first man hard right under where his ribs joined together. He heard his father’s voice as he struck. "It’s a killing blow, Mat. Don’t ever use it unless it’s your life." But those knives made it for his life; there was no room in the cabin for swinging a staff.
    As he never interacts with Abell "onscreen" prior to this moment, the quote he's remembering would have had to come from prior to the events of TEotW.

    (And since he is called "Mat" in the memory and his father is in it, it's definitely one of his, rather than one of the past lives.)
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-06-18 at 12:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    (And since he is called "Mat" in the memory and his father is in it, it's definitely one of his, rather than one of the past lives.)
    That's got to be a creepy feeling. Imagine having a memory of something you treasured doing with your father...and then you realize it's not your father but your umpteenth great grandfather's father. Randomly speaking a dead language is peanuts in comparison.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    To be fair to Mat, thrashing 2 trained swordsmen with a quarter-staff is something that should happen if said person had been given training by someone who is very good at quarterstaffing. Reach is just that important. Randland is stupidly obsessed with swords as the "only proper weapon" and the Aiel equally opposite in mind.

    Mat doesn't really think of a quarter-staff as military weapon so bringing one along on an adventure probably doesn't occur to him. The stories he has heard mostly focuses on swordsmanship I bet. And I bet Gawyn and Galad view it similarly. That's why they both think "we are swordsmen, we got this". Mat being lucky means a lot, but had Mat been completely hale, and the swordsmen more vary I'd put odds on the quarterstaff. The only thing making it an fair fight is in fact that there is 2 swordsmen. At only one been entirely chanceless.

    The Warden trainer in chief knows this. And which is why he has the students recite historic precedence.

    Also Mat may not be one cut out for regular self-motivated training, but we also find out Mat says a lot of things about what Mat would never do and ends up doing them anyway. I suspect Abell makes his son train with him, and Mat doesn't particularly enjoy hard work so has no occasion to reflect over it. Basically I think he has been trained by a master quarterstaff-man, does not realise it and subtly resents having had to do that work.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    He does actually / specifically remember his dad training him how to use a quarterstaff to kill. Quote since AES passed this part:



    As he never interacts with Abell "onscreen" prior to this moment, the quote he's remembering would have had to come from prior to the events of TEotW.

    (And since he is called "Mat" in the memory and his father is in it, it's definitely one of his, rather than one of the past lives.)
    Oh I know it wasnt foreshadowing, im saying that it easily could have been made such. A memory that didnt happen to "him" that floated up out of the confusion of his current physical and mental health etc etc etc. It would have worked much better that way imo. It would have stood out like it does now, as seeming to be a bit of a retcon, then later on when we get the reveal about his past lives, it all falls into place. All it would have taken to plant the seed for the future would have been egwyne or pigtail puller being present with an odd look on their face that at the time could have been dismissed as surprise he beat two warders in training but in hindsight was confusion over how matt, a boy they knew didnt have much quarterstaff training if at all, was able to whup warder butt.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    To be fair to Mat, thrashing 2 trained swordsmen with a quarter-staff is something that should happen if said person had been given training by someone who is very good at quarterstaffing. Reach is just that important. Randland is stupidly obsessed with swords as the "only proper weapon" and the Aiel equally opposite in mind.

    Mat doesn't really think of a quarter-staff as military weapon so bringing one along on an adventure probably doesn't occur to him. The stories he has heard mostly focuses on swordsmanship I bet. And I bet Gawyn and Galad view it similarly. That's why they both think "we are swordsmen, we got this". Mat being lucky means a lot, but had Mat been completely hale, and the swordsmen more vary I'd put odds on the quarterstaff. The only thing making it an fair fight is in fact that there is 2 swordsmen. At only one been entirely chanceless.

    The Warden trainer in chief knows this. And which is why he has the students recite historic precedence.

    Also Mat may not be one cut out for regular self-motivated training, but we also find out Mat says a lot of things about what Mat would never do and ends up doing them anyway. I suspect Abell makes his son train with him, and Mat doesn't particularly enjoy hard work so has no occasion to reflect over it. Basically I think he has been trained by a master quarterstaff-man, does not realise it and subtly resents having had to do that work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Oh I know it wasnt foreshadowing, im saying that it easily could have been made such. A memory that didnt happen to "him" that floated up out of the confusion of his current physical and mental health etc etc etc. It would have worked much better that way imo. It would have stood out like it does now, as seeming to be a bit of a retcon, then later on when we get the reveal about his past lives, it all falls into place. All it would have taken to plant the seed for the future would have been egwyne or pigtail puller being present with an odd look on their face that at the time could have been dismissed as surprise he beat two warders in training but in hindsight was confusion over how matt, a boy they knew didnt have much quarterstaff training if at all, was able to whup warder butt.
    The issue I take with both of these is - if he didn't already know how good he was, and he furthermore didn't even like using a quarterstaff, then challenging two trained swordsmen and betting what was essentially his life-savings and only hope of freedom on the outcome would be pretty wacky, even by Mat standards.

    Rather, for me the simplest fix isn't having his skill appear from nowhere or his friends be confused by his sudden proficiency - it's simply having him know he's skilled (show the training) and thus bring a staff with him initially, then lose it in the chaos of Shadar Logoth or along the Arinelle. Same outcome as before, but better setup/foreshadowing for the 2:1 Warder Fight in book 3. And you can even keep him from replacing his staff until Tar Valon if needed, since one of the effects of Mordeth's cursed dagger is to make him eschew other weapons:

    Quote Originally Posted by TEotW
    He crouched behind the barely covered opening, clutching the hilt of his sword as the horsemen rode by. Five...six...seven of them. Plainly dressed men, but swords and spears said they were not villagers. Some wore leather tunics with metal studs, and two had round steel caps. Merchant's guards perhaps, between hirings. Perhaps.

    One of them casually swung his eyes toward the hedge as he went by the opening, and Rand bared an inch of his sword. Mat snarled silently like a cornered badger, squinting above his scarf. His hand was under his coat; he always clutched the dagger from Shadar Logoth when there was danger. Rand was no longer sure if it was to protect himself or to protect the ruby-hilted dagger. Of late, Mat seemed to forget he had a bow, sometimes.
    In fact, having him default to the dagger in a fight (like he does in Falme in book 2) when we already know how skilled he is with a staff would underscore this point even more, and further highlight for the audience the effect the dagger is having on his mental state/outlook.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-06-18 at 02:57 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The issue I take with both of these is - if he didn't already know how good he was, and he furthermore didn't even like using a quarterstaff, then challenging two trained swordsmen and betting what was essentially his life-savings and only hope of freedom on the outcome would be pretty wacky, even by Mat standards.

    Rather, for me the simplest fix isn't having his skill appear from nowhere or his friends be confused by his sudden proficiency - it's simply having him know he's skilled (show the training) and thus bring a staff with him initially, then lose it in the chaos of Shadar Logoth or along the Arinelle. Same outcome as before, but better setup/foreshadowing for the 2:1 Warder Fight in book 3. And you can even keep him from replacing his staff until Tar Valon if needed, since one of the effects of Mordeth's cursed dagger is to make him eschew other weapons:



    In fact, having him default to the dagger in a fight (like he does in Falme in book 2) when we already know how skilled he is with a staff would underscore this point even more, and further highlight for the audience the effect the dagger is having on his mental state/outlook.
    Like I said, it would be confusion on his part. A previous life tidbit mangled with his current one. He "remembers" being trained with a quarterstaff by his dad who was the best around. But he wasnt. He was trained in previous lives though and thats where the muscle memory and skill comes from. The two rivers ladies being there and seeming confused by his statement would be the hint that something is wrong, and a sign of what eventually comes through in later books (I think book 4, maybe 5?) There were the other hints as I recall, randomly yelling out stuff in the old tongue or being able to translate it, this would have been another and thus no plot hole or retcon. Instead, it was another hint that something is up with matt and its something big.
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    You're starting to lean into spoilers ahead of where AES is, may want to move it to spoiler tags.
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Perrin's marksmanship also becomes a minor plot point, though I'll hold off on that example because I can't remember if AES is there yet (it's in this book).
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    I know Perrin shoots a dark friend "Lord Luc" in Telanriod in defense of Emond's Field(sp).
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
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    I know Perrin shoots a dark friend "Lord Luc" in Telanriod in defense of Emond's Field(sp).
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    That's the scene I was thinking of when I said Perrin uses a bow. It's a great sniper duel and I wish Sanderson had stuck with that level of dreamworld proficiency when he wrote Perrin's finale. Turning it into DBZ was not the right approach.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    You're starting to lean into spoilers ahead of where AES is, may want to move it to spoiler tags.
    Yeah Traab I'd spoil the latter half of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Like I said, it would be confusion on his part. A previous life tidbit mangled with his current one. He "remembers" being trained with a quarterstaff by his dad who was the best around. But he wasnt. He was trained in previous lives though and thats where the muscle memory and skill comes from.
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    The two rivers ladies being there and seeming confused by his statement would be the hint that something is wrong, and a sign of what eventually comes through in later books (I think book 4, maybe 5?) There were the other hints as I recall, randomly yelling out stuff in the old tongue or being able to translate it, this would have been another and thus no plot hole or retcon. Instead, it was another hint that something is up with matt and its something big.
    That could work too, but the only issue is that his past-life bleed isn't actually that strong
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    until the Eelfinn pull them in to spackle his memory in Rhuidean. Before then it's just random smatterings of Old Tongue coming through; certainly not strong enough for anti-Warder combat training. So this approach clashes with one of his accidental "wishes" being for exactly that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
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    I know Perrin shoots a dark friend "Lord Luc" in Telanriod in defense of Emond's Field(sp).
    That would be a major plot point, and it's definitely a book or two later but good callout.
    The one I was referring to from this book was
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    Perrin killing an onrushing Darkhound with his bow, illustrating how hard they are to kill by conventional means even with someone who nails every shot, and thereby setting up how OP balefire is when Moiraine deletes the rest of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Yeah Traab I'd spoil the latter half of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Like I said, it would be confusion on his part. A previous life tidbit mangled with his current one. He "remembers" being trained with a quarterstaff by his dad who was the best around. But he wasnt. He was trained in previous lives though and thats where the muscle memory and skill comes from.
    Spoiler
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    The two rivers ladies being there and seeming confused by his statement would be the hint that something is wrong, and a sign of what eventually comes through in later books (I think book 4, maybe 5?) There were the other hints as I recall, randomly yelling out stuff in the old tongue or being able to translate it, this would have been another and thus no plot hole or retcon. Instead, it was another hint that something is up with matt and its something big.

    That could work too, but the only issue is that his past-life bleed isn't actually that strong
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    until the Eelfinn pull them in to spackle his memory in Rhuidean. Before then it's just random smatterings of Old Tongue coming through; certainly not strong enough for anti-Warder combat training. So this approach clashes with one of his accidental "wishes" being for exactly that.
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    One thing to add to this: The memories the Matt ends up with from the 'Finns aren't his past lives. Those memories are the memories taken from others who have visited the 'finns tower to bargain with them in the past. So the much more concrete memories that come in the future are actually completely disconnected from Matt's random old tongue outbursts. Which makes the bits of old tongue in the early books feel a little bit weird and unexplained, rather than a foreshadowing of his future power. I feel like this is one of those artifacts of Jordan having an idea of where he wanted Matt to end up, but not a solid outline of how to get there. I could see the TV series simplifying that and changing it to the much more logical "unlocking past lives", but in cannon it was not that at all.
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    I mean, a quarterstaff is not the thing you want fighting blades, he uses it because it's a sparring match, when Mat has to fight for his life he uses his knives.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    I mean, a quarterstaff is not the thing you want fighting blades, he uses it because it's a sparring match, when Mat has to fight for his life he uses his knives.
    See my TDR quote above for where he used a staff to fight for his life (unspoiled as AES has passed that point)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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