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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    I mean, a quarterstaff is not the thing you want fighting blades, he uses it because it's a sparring match, when Mat has to fight for his life he uses his knives.
    Not really the case from what I understand. A well made quarterstff withstands a blow from a sword easily and is nearly as deadly against an unarmored opponent. The only reason they didn't see more real-life use is that a deadlier variant was readily available - the spear. A spear is a quarterstaff with added lethality with very little downside and very little work required.

    Swords get a lot of fame in fiction, but in the real world they're a second-tier weapon at best. Reach is all-important in warfare. There's a reason why they gave bayonets to flintlock riflemen instead of handing out swords to them all.

    Give the swordsman some armor (even just a helmet and neck protector) and the equation changes drastically.

    And while there's some debate on the whole "sword v quarterstaff" thing, I don't think there's any argument that knives do well against either.

    As to Mat's preferred weapon? It's complicated. As noted, he brings a bow from Two Rivers but never uses it much. He uses the dagger from Shadar Logoth for the rest of that book and in the next because he's magically cursed to prefer it. Also, a weapon so venomous even a scratch can kill is a pretty scary weapon anyway. He acquires the quarterstaff in this book, and uses it as his primary weapon on at least one occasion here - when he's attacked on the boat. He also would have used it if the muggers/assassins had spotted him in the alleyway.

    Spoiler: Shadow Rising
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    He uses knives against the killer playing cards, but that's because he was sat down playing cards rather than armed for combat. He used the hidden knives he carries around at all times to dispatch them. I don't recall what he uses when the Trollocs attack, or if we even see him during the assault. After that we're at Rhuidean and he gets his signature spear - from there on out that is his primary weapon and his daggers are his backup for if he loses the spear.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Trollocs and Fades are usually armoured, IIRC.

    Culturally, the Two Rivers people don't really carry weapons. They use bows to hunt, and the quarterstaff at festivals and for sparring and self defence, but they're not really intended to be taken into combat. They're an 'if I absolutely have to' weapon rather than an 'I know I'm going into combat' weapon.

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    As you said, once he gets a spear he uses it by preference, but knives (usually throwing) are pretty common for Mat as well. He doesn't willingly fight with a stave given another choice.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Spoiler: Shadow Rising
    Show
    He uses knives against the killer playing cards, but that's because he was sat down playing cards rather than armed for combat. He used the hidden knives he carries around at all times to dispatch them. I don't recall what he uses when the Trollocs attack, or if we even see him during the assault. After that we're at Rhuidean and he gets his signature spear - from there on out that is his primary weapon and his daggers are his backup for if he loses the spear.
    We don't see him during, but we get a flashback from him that describes his circumstances:

    Short version:
    Spoiler
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    He was using knives during the attack, but wishing he had a quarterstaff or bow. He is of course quite good with the knives, as he takes out a Gray Man with them.


    Longer version is one of my favorite Mat comedy inner monologues in the entire series:
    Spoiler
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSR
    Mat backed away. He had a knife in either hand, now, though he did not remember drawing them. Not that knives would be much good against a sword, but running meant that black blade in his back as sure as fives sixes beat four threes. He wished he had a good quarterstaff. Or a bow; he would like to see this thing try to deflect a shaft from a Two Rivers longbow. He wished he were somewhere else. He was going to die, here.

    Suddenly a dozen Trollocs roared out of a side hallway, piling onto the Fade in a frenzy of chopping axes and stabbing swords. Mat stared in amazed disbelief. The Halfman fought like a black-armored whirlwind. More than half the Trollocs were dead or dying before the Fade lay in a twitching heap; one arm flexed and thrashed like a dying snake three paces away from the body, still with that black sword in its fist. A ram-horned Trolloc peered toward Mat, snout lifted to sniff the air. It snarled at him, then whined and began licking a long gash that had laid open mail and hairy forearm. The others finished cutting the throats of their wounded, and one barked a few harsh, guttural words. Without another glance at Mat, they turned and trotted away, hooves and boots making hollow sounds on the stone floor.

    Away from him. Mat shivered. Trollocs to the rescue. What had Rand gotten him into now?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Not really the case from what I understand. A well made quarterstff withstands a blow from a sword easily and is nearly as deadly against an unarmored opponent. The only reason they didn't see more real-life use is that a deadlier variant was readily available - the spear. A spear is a quarterstaff with added lethality with very little downside and very little work required.
    Quarterstaff fighting and spear fighting are actually quite different, since fighting with a quarterstaff relies on swings while spears are built for thrusts. The militarized version of a quarterstaff is a polearm designed for swinging - which was very easily made by taking a quarterstaff and placing a modified scythe blade atop it - such as a bill, glaive, or similar weapon.

    Spoiler: Shadow Rising
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    He uses knives against the killer playing cards, but that's because he was sat down playing cards rather than armed for combat. He used the hidden knives he carries around at all times to dispatch them. I don't recall what he uses when the Trollocs attack, or if we even see him during the assault. After that we're at Rhuidean and he gets his signature spear - from there on out that is his primary weapon and his daggers are his backup for if he loses the spear.
    Spoiler
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    Mat's ashandarei, while often referred to as a spear, is actually a single-edged bladed polearm and is usually drawn in the fashion of the Japanese naginata.


    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren
    Rand of course is better than them because the skills of centering himself imparted by his blademaster father are easily transferable to archery. (And to male spellcasting, as it turns out - go figure.)
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    This is actually justified later, when it's explained that the swordfighting techniques were developed during the War of Power by male channelers. The remark in question, which is made by either Damodred or Ishamael, speaking to Lews Therin, is something like 'do you remember when we took up swords and learned to kill with them, as the old books said men did' (paraphrasing). So the channelers used their spellcasting centering techniques to master swords and then that method was passed on to swordsmen who couldn't channel, and the blademasters preserved this technique.
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    You never want to have a knife as your primary weapon. Knives are for when you've gotten in close, if you try and start the fight with one you may as well be fighting on your knees since you've already consigned yourself to losing.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Yes, that's kind of my point. Mat can fight with quarterstaff or knives if he has to, but he doesn't want to be.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
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    This is actually justified later, when it's explained that the swordfighting techniques were developed during the War of Power by male channelers. The remark in question, which is made by either Damodred or Ishamael, speaking to Lews Therin, is something like 'do you remember when we took up swords and learned to kill with them, as the old books said men did' (paraphrasing). So the channelers used their spellcasting centering techniques to master swords and then that method was passed on to swordsmen who couldn't channel, and the blademasters preserved this technique.
    Yep, the wheel turns indeed. It's actually an interesting chicken-and-egg problem. (Yes, I know the actual chicken and egg problem has a solution.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Everyone on these threads is always an expert on ancient combat techniques and weapons for some reason.

    Anyway, I'm glad the thread is back. I've been thinking of rereading the series myself, except I'm dreading the Sanderson slop at the end.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    I don't know whether "everyone" includes me; I never claimed to be an expert and I have no problem with Mat's tactics. (Well, other than the oopsie/retcon of not taking a weapon he's obviously very comfortable using on his first real foray outside his village but that's fixed with just two added lines in book 1 so it's not a big deal anyway.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Meh. It's fun to discuss such things as evidenced by the wide number of such topics on the web that includes articles from historians, reenactors and modern martial artists. And for the most part there is no consensus on this stuff because it's too dangerous to fight with the weapons in a serious manner.

    It doesn't break my suspension of disbelief that Mat would favor a quarterstaff over swords when he's had no training in the latter. It also doesn't break my disbelief when he is effective using said weapon against the opponents he typically fights with it.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    You mean watching three whole Youtube videos doesn't make me an expert?

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Just watch shadiversity, then you too can become on expert on medieval weaponry, armor, and tactics. And also the worst weapons ever. Dude HATES nunchucks.
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    I generally prefer Skallagrin. He does seem to have a bit more hands-on experience from HEMA.
    And he certainly does carry out a lot of practical testing. Like when he had his fiance whip him in the wood.
    So when he does make statements about a weapon machup i generally take it as fact.

    And also the worst weapons ever. Dude HATES nunchucks.
    Meanwhile i think the nunchaku rant were a bit stupid.
    And rather full of errors.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Most Youtubers have good and bad takes. The weapons armour and tactics thread on these forums is pretty good, because you get multiple perspectives. Shad has some good takes, but sometimes he goes into 'all logic, no sense' mode like when he's calling out why Rohan doesn't have the same tech level as Gondor.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Like when he had his fiance whip him in the wood.
    I saw videos like this too, but not on YouTube
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    I generally prefer Skallagrin. He does seem to have a bit more hands-on experience from HEMA.
    And he certainly does carry out a lot of practical testing. Like when he had his fiance whip him in the wood.
    So when he does make statements about a weapon machup i generally take it as fact.
    .
    Skallagrin is good. So is Scholagladiatora and Shadiversity. I actually prefer lindybeige not because I think Lloyd is anymore accurate but because he is very entertaining.

    But for practical testing, nothing beats this video by Todd's Workshop on long bows vs armor at Agincourt


    I'll never look at a long bow as a dex weapon again.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Fantasy has this odd obsession with swords and WoT is just as obsessed with them as anything else. At least it doesn't make them super heavy so that most people have trouble lifting them.... Heck, even most fantasy RPGs make swords the bestest weapons evah - I would like for a change for the spear/polearm to reign supreme.

    But at least WoT doesn't fall into the longbow problem, by making it the weapon for dexterous, waifish characters, but instead for the larger, stronger people who have spent generations practicing with it.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    I would imagine that the trope started because it simply seems easier and more realistic for a character to roam the countryside fighting random encounters and such with a sword than lugging around a giant spear or halberd through a forest or up an mountain. Plus, fantasy protagonists usually find themselves fighting in more enclosed quarters like caverns or simply indoors where such weapons wouldn't be practical.

    Basically the same reasons that people carried swords around in real life for personal defense rather than longbows, spears, whatever.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Fantasy has this odd obsession with swords and WoT is just as obsessed with them as anything else. At least it doesn't make them super heavy so that most people have trouble lifting them.... Heck, even most fantasy RPGs make swords the bestest weapons evah - I would like for a change for the spear/polearm to reign supreme.
    A lot of modern fantasy tropes are traceable to Tolkien and his contemporaries (CS Lewis, etc.), and Tolkien wasn't drawing on even the (genuinely not very good) weapons and armor research of the time, but rather the greater British literary tradition, including both Arthurian romances (ex. Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, of which he published a translation), and older works such as Beowulf - an incredibly important source for LotR. Both of those traditions, and Beowulf in particular, were all about swords. There's at least three different mentions of magical and/or heirloom swords in Beowulf, which is pretty impressive considering there's only three fights. And of course Excalibur and similar weapons are also well known. There's long been a tradition in English literature of conveying high levels of story importance to swords in favor of other weapons. This may have something to do with durability. Swords, being generally entirely metal, preserve well and are the kind of thing that you actually can pull out of a treasure trove hundreds of years old and plausibly use after some cleaning up even as any weapon with a wooden shaft is going to be reduced to just a head and bows are liable to be almost completely unrecoverable (composite bows from Central Asian grave sites are usually found only as bone bits now).
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    From what I've read and poorly remembered, swords were a bit of a status symbol forthe Vikings and Saxons, more common among high-ranking or distinguished folks. That would help explain their prevalence in northern European folklore and later Tolkien's work, since most of the stories - Beowulf, the Arthurian legends, etc., - are about aristocrats of one stripe or another.
    Last edited by quinron; 2021-06-21 at 11:24 PM.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Not just in Europe either - you have the Samurai and their katanas. It was a symbol of their status and a backup weapon as they used bows and spears in battle.

    Swords were status symbols partially because of their expense. Then there was the fact they didn't have any other purpose - you could use a spear or a bow for hunting as well as battle. You don't go hunting with a sword, or chopping wood, digging, farming or anything else that their weapons could double up as.

    I saw someone point out that swords were the sidearms of the time - you didn't generally want to go into combat with a pistol over a rifle unless you were in close quarters fighting (and even then SMGs would be better) but there is a mystique about them.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Is Tolkien big on swords particularly? The Fellowship has a bowman, an axeman, and two swordmen, the hobbits carry daggers as swords are too big for them.

    Gil Galad's favoured weapon is a spear. Anduril/Narsil is a sword, but it's more effective because of magic, not because it's inherently a better weapon.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Is Tolkien big on swords particularly? The Fellowship has a bowman, an axeman, and two swordmen, the hobbits carry daggers as swords are too big for them.

    Gil Galad's favoured weapon is a spear. Anduril/Narsil is a sword, but it's more effective because of magic, not because it's inherently a better weapon.
    IIRC, Sting was an Elven dagger and in Bilbo's hands it was closer to a short sword. It's been a while since I've read but the same might be true of the weapons Merry and Pippin were using.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Swords make for very good personal defense weapons. They're easy to carry, and unlike on a battlefield, you're unlikely to be assaulted in the street by a man in full armor so they're disadvantages on the battlefield aren't an issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    Swords make for very good personal defense weapons. They're easy to carry, and unlike on a battlefield, you're unlikely to be assaulted in the street by a man in full armor so they're disadvantages on the battlefield aren't an issue.
    Which also helps explain their place as status symbols. Carrying a sword implies having money to be robbed of. The more noble the person the fancier the sword. Especially once you get to the level of nobility that pays people to get angry for them.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Swords are a sidearm like an officer's pistol, and we see much of any fantasy series through the eyes of "officers". In WoT, most of the real fighting forces use pike or lance as their primary weapon.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Yeah it's worth pointing out that a lot of rank and file people in Randland, much like in our own medieval history, can't even afford swords; they are as much status symbol as weapon. There are in fact major nations in WoT where swords are restricted to the nobility entirely (Tear being the biggest example.)

    But as far as practicality, remember too that WoT's history was shaped by fantastical elements in a way that ours wasn't, the most notable of which was the Trolloc Wars. The vast majority of the modern political situation in Randland derives from that conflict especially, and in it, there were tons of Trollocs, Myrddraal and other nasties that Power-Wrought Weaponry was needed to fight. A halberd or pike might be more practical than a sword most of the time, but when you're up against a super-strong intelligent wight with damage reduction and catlike reflexes, whose sword can cut through even the toughest wood like butter, then a polearm loses some of the advantages it might have had against a more typical foe. A sword meanwhile can have its entire "business end" forged of competitive material without any weak points for said wight to target.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    I think swords catch a lot of unwarranted flack. They are very good in shield wall fighting, from ancient Sumer through the high middle ages. Shield walls and large shields overall come and go in different eras, just like pike walls and heavy cavalry.

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    The Wheel of Time has a time dilation effect where innovations are implemented faster than they are in real life, so Mat's focus on large columns of trained uniformed men happen in a few years instead of requiring a major empire a decade or more to implement. Cannons are invented and move forward several hundred years instantly, etc.

    I think this obscures the issue that pikes require a lot of training and coordination, while shield walls where swords are useful require mostly spirit to work. You can take large numbers of disparate uncoordinated troops and make them into a battle army by simple instinct of staying close to the men on either side.

    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2021-06-22 at 03:55 PM.
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    IIRC, Sting was an Elven dagger and in Bilbo's hands it was closer to a short sword. It's been a while since I've read but the same might be true of the weapons Merry and Pippin were using.
    Yeah basically, the hobbits were using what amounted to swords for them. I honestly liked Mckiernans take on them with the Warrows. He really leaned into the far more realistic aspect that hobbits/halflings/waerlings, are too short and light to be getting into swordfights as just about every race is bigger and stronger than them. So they are heavy duty bow users. To the point where they are trained to use them in pretty much all scenarios. On pony back, on foot, lying down in cover, on the run, etc etc etc. The only two warrows in the series I can think of offhand who used swords were considered to be extreme outliers and while they were pretty good, they generally fought against the goblin like bad guys who werent too much bigger than them. They had a lot of skill but again, your skill doesnt count for much against someone with three feet of reach on you who can literally hurl you across the room.

    Of course the downside with him is sometimes he takes his tribute to tokien into the realm of plagiarizing. I was so glad I didnt read the iron tower duology till I had a few other titles from him under my belt. The sheer brazenness of his mines of moria ripoff was hilariously blatant. He had a lot of different stuff and his own take on a lot of the generic fantasy races, dont get me wrong, but sometimes, oi.
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    I saw videos like this too, but not on YouTube
    Im not judging xD

    Honestly the most hilarious thing there were the comment section.
    He was testing some sort of self-defence weapon.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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