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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    There is no in-universe evidence to support that theory.

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    The sole and complete basis for the "culling" theory is that fewer channelers are found - the Aes Sedai have been dwindling in numbers for centuries, and men who channel are not found very often. The thesis is that this is because there are fewer channelers being born. Yet, once people start actively looking, thousands of men and women are found quite quickly. The Black Tower gains enough recruits to match the White Tower within a year, while Egwene's group gains enough novices to triple the Tower's numbers in several months. Once you adjust for the long, long lifespans the proportion of channelers in the "wetlands" does not seem to be noticeably less than the Aiel or Seanchan show.

    Similarly, the notion that it is genetically linked (a "magical bloodline") is also not well supported. The initial appearance that the Two Rivers (where "the Old Blood runs strong") is particularly rich in people that can channel is misleading - there's equally rich "hauls" from much less "bloodlined" places. The closest we see to solid evidence is the visions of the future that show Rand's children being extra-potent channelers. There are strong suggestions that channeling is linked to the soul, not the body, which supports this.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
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    I don't see how their method is superior. They're at the top when it comes to warfare but far behind in every other meaningful metric.
    It's superior in the sense that
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    Their channelers are able to have full lifespan, full power without dilution, and their society hasn't been torn apart or even damaged by the male channelers that do pop up. And they use damange for other things - yeah the vast majority are aimed at blowing things up, but they we see other examples like locating metals, sailing, and sometimes healing.

    They're horrible people, don't get me wrong, but they've found a way to base their entire society around the Power and keep that Power very strong over the centuries. At the top end they have Alivia, who is actually stronger than most of the female Forsaken.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
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    The sole and complete basis for the "culling" theory is that fewer channelers are found - the Aes Sedai have been dwindling in numbers for centuries, and men who channel are not found very often. The thesis is that this is because there are fewer channelers being born. Yet, once people start actively looking, thousands of men and women are found quite quickly. The Black Tower gains enough recruits to match the White Tower within a year, while Egwene's group gains enough novices to triple the Tower's numbers in several months. Once you adjust for the long, long lifespans the proportion of channelers in the "wetlands" does not seem to be noticeably less than the Aiel or Seanchan show.
    Actually, it's heavily implied that
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    Rand himself and his probability alteration is to thank for the Black Tower's proliferation so quickly. i.e. it's not something that would have happened naturally had he not needed it to.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-06-28 at 03:30 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    It's superior in the sense that


    Actually, it's heavily implied that
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    Rand himself and his probability alteration is to thank for the Black Tower's proliferation so quickly. i.e. it's not something that would have happened naturally had he not needed it to.
    That doesn't make a lot of sense.

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    A key plot point with the Black Tower is that Rand is almost never there. Until very late in the series, his probability alteration is limited to his presence, enough so that the Forsaken can use it to find and attack him. Even if the Black Tower itself is in range of his effects during his time in Caemlyn, most of the recruiting parties are not.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    That doesn't make a lot of sense.

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    A key plot point with the Black Tower is that Rand is almost never there. Until very late in the series, his probability alteration is limited to his presence, enough so that the Forsaken can use it to find and attack him. Even if the Black Tower itself is in range of his effects during his time in Caemlyn, most of the recruiting parties are not.
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    Aviendah's dream quest implies that at the least Rand's kids tend towards impossible levels of channeling. His daughter is born with the ability to channel for instance, but whether that is his taverness or because he is so strong we will never know.
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
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    Aviendah's dream quest implies that at the least Rand's kids tend towards impossible levels of channeling. His daughter is born with the ability to channel for instance, but whether that is his taverness or because he is so strong we will never know.
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    I think some of the future worlds Rand presents to the Dark One have the same thing, and it is reasonable to assume that both Rand and TDO are working directly with the Pattern instead of just making it up (else he wouldn't be able to come to the realizations he does in the ones he presents). So we can accept that as an equally valid prophecy. Still a thin reed to extrapolate from one super-special channeler and a couple of other chanellers made super-chaneller babies, therefore it is pure genetics. Particularly when many of the most powerful channelers seen are descended from non-channelers.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    That doesn't make a lot of sense.

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    A key plot point with the Black Tower is that Rand is almost never there. Until very late in the series, his probability alteration is limited to his presence, enough so that the Forsaken can use it to find and attack him. Even if the Black Tower itself is in range of his effects during his time in Caemlyn, most of the recruiting parties are not.
    Hey man, I didn't write the books

    You're forgetting that
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    While the most visible effects of T'V are in a radius around them, the "need" they create can also attract people from VERY far away. Consider Mat pulling Verin all the way from Tear to Murandy, despite literally every attempt she made to resist it, even subverting her attempts to teleport elsewhere. If we wanted, we could go all the way back to Book 2, and the sheer unlikelihood of Egwene ending up in Falme at exactly the same time as Rand, which is what convinced him to stick around and proclaim himself to the Heroes of the Horn (to save her.)

    For the Black Tower specifically, he himself as well as the Salidar Aes Sedai believe his T'V nature is to blame for so many men capable of channeling showing up there, so lacking any other explanation I'm inclined to go with what is stated on the page. Even Taim is surprised at how fast the BT grows. Elaida of course doesn't believe that, which is what leads to the Reds getting wrecked when they think there are only a handful of male channelers there.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-06-28 at 05:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Hey man, I didn't write the books

    You're forgetting that
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    While the most visible effects of T'V are in a radius around them, the "need" they create can also attract people from VERY far away. Consider Mat pulling Verin all the way from Tear to Murandy, despite literally every attempt she made to resist it, even subverting her attempts to teleport elsewhere. If we wanted, we could go all the way back to Book 2, and the sheer unlikelihood of Egwene ending up in Falme at exactly the same time as Rand, which is what convinced him to stick around and proclaim himself to the Heroes of the Horn (to save her.)

    For the Black Tower specifically, he himself as well as the Salidar Aes Sedai believe his T'V nature is to blame for so many men capable of channeling showing up there, so lacking any other explanation I'm inclined to go with what is stated on the page. Even Taim is surprised at how fast the BT grows. Elaida of course doesn't believe that, which is what leads to the Reds getting wrecked when they think there are only a handful of male channelers there.
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    In this setting, it is always a mistake to interpret "thing character says" as 100% accurate, because most of them are ignorant of a lot of things and making their best guesses. This includes the Forsaken and "Lews Therin". We don't see explicitly powerful TV effects like that until very late in the series, as the Pattern weakens before the Last Battle. Egwene being at Falme isn't that huge a coincidence, and there's no sign of "funneling" the way there is with Verin.

    But even if we take the success of the recruitment as a TV effect, most of those men were born before Rand was. His ability is very unlikely to have created them in the way he himself was created to align with prophecy. Which, to go back to where we started this discussion, still acts as evidence that the "culling" theory is wrong.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

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    FWIW, word of Jordan is that he intended the culling theory to be true. He thought of channeling having both a soul and genetic component. In the Age of Legends about 3% of the population was channelers but the AS culling had dropped that down to about 1% in the contemporaneous setting.

    EDIT: Sanderson later said (paraphrased) : Jordan definitively stated that the ability to channel was tied to the soul. He definitively stated that spark was not tied to the soul but the body. i.e you could be born with the spark in one life but not the next. He stated with 85% probability that strength in the power was not tied to the soul. I.e you could be very strong in one body/life and very weak in the next.

    How well he executed that is up for debate... I don't think it was done particularly well, or at least it's undercut by the mass of channelers showing up in the later books. Although the point of that was demonstrate how isolated and ineffective the WT had become that it was missing so many potentials.

    The Black Tower was more about the pattern creating/finding Rand the channelers he'll need for his army. Rand needs channelers, so the recruiting parties happened to find channelers. It's things like the very first person Taim tests (Flinn) happens to be a strong channeler so Rand can feel the resonance right away. And we see with Mat and Verin that distance range isn't really an obstacle to Ta'Veren weirdness. Of course, that happened in a Sanderson book so make of that what you will.
    Last edited by Thomas Cardew; 2021-06-28 at 05:47 PM.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Cardew View Post
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    FWIW, word of Jordan is that he intended the culling theory to be true. He thought of channeling having both a soul and genetic component. In the Age of Legends about 3% of the population was channelers but the AS culling had dropped that down to about 1% in the contemporaneous setting.

    How well he executed that is up for debate... I don't think it was done particularly well, or at least it's undercut by the mass of channelers showing up in the later books. Although the point of that was demonstrate how isolated and ineffective the WT had become that it was missing so many potentials.

    The Black Tower was more about the pattern creating/finding Rand the channelers he'll need for his army. Rand needs channelers, so the recruiting parties happened to find channelers. It's things like the very first person Taim tests (Flinn) happens to be a strong channeler so Rand can feel the resonance right away. And we see with Mat and Verin that distance range isn't really an obstacle to Ta'Veren weirdness. Of course, that happened in a Sanderson book so make of that what you will.
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    I can't find any such statement from the author. The 1% and 3% figures are showing up a lot, but never with a sourced link. Every place that does source heavily doesn't include it. Interestingly, it appears that the originator of the theory in-universe was Sheriam. Who is part of the secret order who are sabotaging the Aes Sedai for Satan. Even in universe, it isn't a mainstream theory.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

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    It's Verin. She can lie.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
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    In this setting, it is always a mistake to interpret "thing character says" as 100% accurate, because most of them are ignorant of a lot of things and making their best guesses. This includes the Forsaken and "Lews Therin". We don't see explicitly powerful TV effects like that until very late in the series, as the Pattern weakens before the Last Battle. Egwene being at Falme isn't that huge a coincidence, and there's no sign of "funneling" the way there is with Verin.

    But even if we take the success of the recruitment as a TV effect, most of those men were born before Rand was. His ability is very unlikely to have created them in the way he himself was created to align with prophecy. Which, to go back to where we started this discussion, still acts as evidence that the "culling" theory is wrong.
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    For Papazen, while I have spoken of souls being born with the ability to channel in response to questions, I think of it as being genetic also. In the Age of Legends, between 2 and 3% of people had some ability, following a bell curve distribution in strength. For over 3000 years, though, Aes Sedai have been removing men who actually learned to channel from the gene pool. They have been very efficient at this. As a result, the "present day" sees about 1% of the population who can learn to channel, with a much, much smaller percentage of that being born with the spark.



    That's a quote from the old forums on the topic from 05, so word of god is Egwene is right and they are culling it out slowly.

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    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2021-06-28 at 05:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
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    I can't find any such statement from the author. The 1% and 3% figures are showing up a lot, but never with a sourced link. Every place that does source heavily doesn't include it. Interestingly, it appears that the originator of the theory in-universe was Sheriam. Who is part of the secret order who are sabotaging the Aes Sedai for Satan. Even in universe, it isn't a mainstream theory.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Cardew View Post
    The exact wording used probably explains why I couldn't find it.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Glad that's settled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
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    In this setting, it is always a mistake to interpret "thing character says" as 100% accurate, because most of them are ignorant of a lot of things and making their best guesses. This includes the Forsaken and "Lews Therin". We don't see explicitly powerful TV effects like that until very late in the series, as the Pattern weakens before the Last Battle. Egwene being at Falme isn't that huge a coincidence, and there's no sign of "funneling" the way there is with Verin.

    But even if we take the success of the recruitment as a TV effect, most of those men were born before Rand was. His ability is very unlikely to have created them in the way he himself was created to align with prophecy. Which, to go back to where we started this discussion, still acts as evidence that the "culling" theory is wrong.
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    I never said he created them. Remember there are a wide number of latents in all societies who can simply be taught, but go almost completely unnoticed by the larger population. Those are the majority of who he attracted.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
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    It's Verin. She can lie.
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    Yeah, and? How would she have just known to randomly go cross-country to Murandy if not for feeling a pull? What reason would she have to lie about that? Nobody even knew where Mat was, he was on the run with Tuon.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    I thought it was more,
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    the difference between wilders and those who can be taught. The red ajah did a splendid job of tracking down those who were able to use the male half or expressed it but they couldnt find those who were capable of learning. Its like the difference between nyaneave and the girls who go to be tested and find out they can be taught. She was easy to spot because she was using the power instinctively. She needed to be taught control, they needed to be taught how to find the power first. Most of the ashaman needed to be taught how to access it, they didnt already have access to it I think. I may be wrong as my knowledge ends at around book 6-7. But I think it was considered to be a surprise when he was told like 3 dudes were found already able to channel or something like that.
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I thought it was more,
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    the difference between wilders and those who can be taught. The red ajah did a splendid job of tracking down those who were able to use the male half or expressed it but they couldnt find those who were capable of learning. Its like the difference between nyaneave and the girls who go to be tested and find out they can be taught. She was easy to spot because she was using the power instinctively. She needed to be taught control, they needed to be taught how to find the power first. Most of the ashaman needed to be taught how to access it, they didnt already have access to it I think. I may be wrong as my knowledge ends at around book 6-7. But I think it was considered to be a surprise when he was told like 3 dudes were found already able to channel or something like that.
    That's who I was referring to, yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    It's superior in the sense that
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    Their channelers are able to have full lifespan, full power without dilution, and their society hasn't been torn apart or even damaged by the male channelers that do pop up. And they use damange for other things - yeah the vast majority are aimed at blowing things up, but they we see other examples like locating metals, sailing, and sometimes healing.

    They're horrible people, don't get me wrong, but they've found a way to base their entire society around the Power and keep that Power very strong over the centuries. At the top end they have Alivia, who is actually stronger than most of the female Forsaken.
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    I would consider Seanchan society damaged in lots of ways. I know I'd certainly rather live in Randland than there, whether as a power user or not. As for male channelers, We're just told that men with the spark are hunted down like animals. The assumption that they never damage anything is unfounded. Presumably they were just as big a problem there as elsewhere or they wouldn't be so ardent about hunting them.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
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    Still. When it comes to the Aes Sedai the biggest issue were likely more that they had a tradition where none of their strongest female channelers had kids either.
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    It's partly that, but I think a big factor is also that the White Tower doesn't actively seek out potential channelers. They prefer candidates come to them, for the most part, which means they're going to miss the vast majority of women who can be taught, and quite a lot of those with the spark as well (hence why so many Wisdoms/Wise Women/Readers/etc are wilders, and why the Kin are so widespread). Sometimes individual Aes Sedai will find someone out in the world and bring them to the Tower (Moiraine with Egwene/Nynaeve and Elaida with Elayne, for instance), but it's not done in any organized fashion.

    By contrast, the Seanchan rigorously test women for both the spark and learning potential (even if they don't know that's what they're testing for). We don't learn as much about the Aiel or the Sea Folk, but their channeling traditions are much more integrated into their society; I would expect them to find all the girls with the spark, at minimum, and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that many young women get tested by Windfinders and Wise Ones to see if they can learn too. It's an honored position in society, and unlike Aes Sedai they're neither distant geographically nor hindered by fear and mistrust.
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
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    I would consider Seanchan society damaged in lots of ways. I know I'd certainly rather live in Randland than there, whether as a power user or not. As for male channelers, We're just told that men with the spark are hunted down like animals. The assumption that they never damage anything is unfounded. Presumably they were just as big a problem there as elsewhere or they wouldn't be so ardent about hunting them.
    My point is that they maintained their society/government post-Breaking (well, whatever portion post-Breaking it began anyway), without diluting channeling. I'm not praising any other aspect of their civilization, believe me.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
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    It's partly that, but I think a big factor is also that the White Tower doesn't actively seek out potential channelers. They prefer candidates come to them, for the most part, which means they're going to miss the vast majority of women who can be taught, and quite a lot of those with the spark as well (hence why so many Wisdoms/Wise Women/Readers/etc are wilders, and why the Kin are so widespread). Sometimes individual Aes Sedai will find someone out in the world and bring them to the Tower (Moiraine with Egwene/Nynaeve and Elaida with Elayne, for instance), but it's not done in any organized fashion.

    By contrast, the Seanchan rigorously test women for both the spark and learning potential (even if they don't know that's what they're testing for). We don't learn as much about the Aiel or the Sea Folk, but their channeling traditions are much more integrated into their society; I would expect them to find all the girls with the spark, at minimum, and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that many young women get tested by Windfinders and Wise Ones to see if they can learn too. It's an honored position in society, and unlike Aes Sedai they're neither distant geographically nor hindered by fear and mistrust.
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    Egwene remarks that every single Aiel girl with the spark is found, and most of the ones who can learn too - none are left to die for lack of instruction.

    The Sea Folk send some of their channelers to the Tower - the weakest ones who wouldn't hack it as Windfinders, who keep the secret forever even if they make it to the shawl. This has fooled Tar Valon into thinking the Sea Folk don't have strong channelers at all, so they don't look at them too closely, in spite of the opposite being true.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    My point is that they maintained their society/government post-Breaking (well, whatever portion post-Breaking it began anyway), without diluting channeling. I'm not praising any other aspect of their civilization, believe me.



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    Egwene remarks that every single Aiel girl with the spark is found, and most of the ones who can learn too - none are left to die for lack of instruction.

    The Sea Folk send some of their channelers to the Tower - the weakest ones who wouldn't hack it as Windfinders, who keep the secret forever even if they make it to the shawl. This has fooled Tar Valon into thinking the Sea Folk don't have strong channelers at all, so they don't look at them too closely, in spite of the opposite being true.
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    I draw the opposite conclusion. Seanchan were even more ruthless than WT in culling their population and have drastically fewer channelers than they should. The Seanchan continent is HUGE. It's bigger than the Westlands, Wastes, and Share put together. By a lot. Their population is huge, in their last rebellions 200 years ago they took 1.5 MILLION slaves. (TPOD 22) They catch every female capable of channelling. And they still have fewer/comparable numbers to the WT despite having longer lifespans due to the oaths. Seanchan characters frequently comment on the large number of marath'damane; part of that is just surprise at the sheer number of channelers. Honestly, it's probably the strongest evidence for a culling effect now that I think about it.

    The Aiel and Sea Folk benefit from having their channelers dispersed, regularly in contact with their whole populations, and willing to marry. As opposed to living in a Tower with their head up their butts and being actively hated by at least 2/5 of the continent. The Sharans are the true channeling powerhouse. And they coincidentally use their male channelers as breeding stock before killing them at 20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Cardew View Post
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    I draw the opposite conclusion. Seanchan were even more ruthless than WT in culling their population and have drastically fewer channelers than they should. The Seanchan continent is HUGE. It's bigger than the Westlands, Wastes, and Share put together. By a lot. Their population is huge, in their last rebellions 200 years ago they took 1.5 MILLION slaves. (TPOD 22) They catch every female capable of channelling. And they still have fewer/comparable numbers to the WT despite having longer lifespans due to the oaths. Seanchan characters frequently comment on the large number of marath'damane; part of that is just surprise at the sheer number of channelers. Honestly, it's probably the strongest evidence for a culling effect now that I think about it.
    No, the disparity makes sense actually.
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    1) Seanchan's only real channelers are the natural/involuntary ones; they don't do any of the training that the other societies do, because they didn't know that training voluntary channelers was possible. They instead make the voluntary women into sul'dam and never train their ability. So when you say "they catch every female capable of channeling" what you really mean is that they catch the ones that would channel on their own. In reality, they're not catching ANY of the others, the ones who could choose to learn - at least, not to make those women channelers themselves. So they are pulling from a much smaller population than other channeler societies are.

    2) They're also the youngest nation by far. Whatever was over there before Artur Hawkwing's descendants sailed over and conquered it all, their Empire is all that's left - and it's younger than the Trolloc Wars (never mind the Breaking) and thus younger than almost everything else in Randland as a result. So all the other channeler societies had a huge head start. Even the Kin predate them.

    Combine those two points and the fact that they have comparatively fewer actual channelers than the other channeling societies makes perfect sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Cardew View Post
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    The Aiel and Sea Folk benefit from having their channelers dispersed, regularly in contact with their whole populations, and willing to marry. As opposed to living in a Tower with their head up their butts and being actively hated by at least 2/5 of the continent. The Sharans are the true channeling powerhouse. And they coincidentally use their male channelers as breeding stock before killing them at 20.
    No argument here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    My point is that they maintained their society/government post-Breaking (well, whatever portion post-Breaking it began anyway), without diluting channeling. I'm not praising any other aspect of their civilization, believe me.
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    There's no indication they handled it any better than the Aiel, or Shara or any other society that didn't have to face the immediate problem of Lews Therin and his Hundred(ish) companions being immediately struck mad by the Dark One's counter-attack on them for being at his sealing. Every other society had time to see what happened in the Westlands and prepare as their men slowly went mad. The Westlands had all of their strongest channelers suddenly go completely insane at the exact same time. There was no avoiding the breaking for them.

    Besides, as you say. By the time Seanchan was even founded the breaking was over.

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    No argument here.
    No. Though as an added point.

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    Hilariously enough. The Aes Sedai being so lax with finding girls who can learn to channel likely did more to preserve it than anything else in the westland.
    As it is, the cull is only on a small % of women who pass into the tower. And on the men with the spark inborn.

    So i agree with the earlier analysis.
    Seanchan likely cull their population harder than anyone else. Since they remove everyone with the spark before they can have kids.

    The Westland, the Aiel and the Seafolk likely dont have a significant difference.
    All lose their men. And the tower then take a small % of girls, and reject the wast majority of them into the kin.

    Shara is absolutely the powerhouse here. Since they actively breed their male channelers.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    No. Though as an added point.

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    Hilariously enough. The Aes Sedai being so lax with finding girls who can learn to channel likely did more to preserve it than anything else in the westland.
    As it is, the cull is only on a small % of women who pass into the tower. And on the men with the spark inborn.

    So i agree with the earlier analysis.
    Seanchan likely cull their population harder than anyone else. Since they remove everyone with the spark before they can have kids.

    The Westland, the Aiel and the Seafolk likely dont have a significant difference.
    All lose their men. And the tower then take a small % of girls, and reject the wast majority of them into the kin.

    Shara is absolutely the powerhouse here. Since they actively breed their male channelers.
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    The ones with the spark get removed, but their voluntary channelers (Sul'dam) are able to have kids just fine. Whereas the Tower takes even those that they find, and heavily discourage them from having children. TV is definitely the worst society in this scenario, worse than the Seanchan at least - that's the only point I'm making.

    As for the Aiel, they actually do have a big difference/advantage from all the others - namely, even some of their non-channelers learn to dreamwalk, which no doubt aids them further in finding both kinds of channeling girl. Divinations of any kind would be useful and give a clear edge here.

    Perhaps on a long enough timescale Seanchan might have a similar decline to the Tower due to not letting their involuntary channelers breed, but that's not shown in the books yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
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    The ones with the spark get removed, but their voluntary channelers (Sul'dam) are able to have kids just fine. Whereas the Tower takes even those that they find, and heavily discourage them from having children. TV is definitely the worst society in this scenario, worse than the Seanchan at least - that's the only point I'm making.

    As for the Aiel, they actually do have a big difference/advantage from all the others - namely, even some of their non-channelers learn to dreamwalk, which no doubt aids them further in finding both kinds of channeling girl. Divinations of any kind would be useful and give a clear edge here.

    Perhaps on a long enough timescale Seanchan might have a similar decline to the Tower due to not letting their involuntary channelers breed, but that's not shown in the books yet.
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    Do the Suldam have kids though? I can't remember if it is said anywhere. I sort of got the feeling maybe they didn't.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    The conversation has moved a bit past this, and it's also probably splitting hairs, but...

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    Technically, the Green Ajah's thing is "preparing for Tarmon Gai'don," not "fighting Shadowspawn." There should obviously be lots of overlap between those two goals, and their failure to help contain the Blight definitely doesn't speak well of them given its obvious connection to the Dark One. But there is a difference, is my point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
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    The ones with the spark get removed, but their voluntary channelers (Sul'dam) are able to have kids just fine. Whereas the Tower takes even those that they find, and heavily discourage them from having children. TV is definitely the worst society in this scenario, worse than the Seanchan at least - that's the only point I'm making.

    As for the Aiel, they actually do have a big difference/advantage from all the others - namely, even some of their non-channelers learn to dreamwalk, which no doubt aids them further in finding both kinds of channeling girl. Divinations of any kind would be useful and give a clear edge here.

    Perhaps on a long enough timescale Seanchan might have a similar decline to the Tower due to not letting their involuntary channelers breed, but that's not shown in the books yet.
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    Yeah.. but im arguing for that the tower isnt the worst.
    The tower normally dont take channelers. They wait for them to come on their own. Its already an insignificant % of potential channelers that ends in the tower.

    And the training is hard. Very hard. A lot wash out as a novice. A lot wash out as accepted.
    Those wander off to get snatched up by the kin. And vanish. Generally out to have several kids.

    So i postulate the difference between them and the Seanchan. Who instead just cull all with the spark.
    Is insignificant. And more likely to be affected by cultural norms. Such as how often Suldam marry. Or how many kids they end up having.

    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
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    And the training is hard. Very hard. A lot wash out as a novice. A lot wash out as accepted.
    Those wander off to get snatched up by the kin. And vanish. Generally out to have several kids..

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    I could be misremembering, but wasn't chastity/celibacy a part of the Kin's Rule?

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    Hmm.. fair. They were forbidden to marry.
    And celibate when in training according to the wiki.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Regarding the argument that the Green Ajah should maintain a relatively large part of it's strength in the Borderlands: I would point out that small forces with low intake of recruits and protracted training periods with high washout/dropout rates are very vulnerable to a death by a thousand cuts even if there is never any one engagement where they can be said to take catastrophic losses.

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