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2021-07-22, 09:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
I'm with Ashen Lilies on this one. Look at 50 Shades of Grey, as an example. It's pretty widely agreed that the book portrays a deeply abusive relationship, even if the author vehemently claims otherwise. Would the movie adaptations have been better carefully recreating every questionable detail the book is known for or trying to capture the intended spirit and making alterations? (FYI the movies were iron-fistedly controlled by James, and this is a great three videos on the movies if you're curious, regardless of whether you agree with me or not .)
Spoiler: WoT specific adaptation thoughtsShould Perrin and Faile's relationship see any alteration? It is simultaneously pretty clearly unhealthy and that RJ didn't think of it that way. What about Mat and Tylin? Published work can still miss the mark and need a few more passes. Adaptations can be one of the ways to do that. Heck, look at the number of creators that keep refining or altering their work after it's released, from George Lucas and Tolkien to Victor Hugo.
There is plenty of well intentioned, positive representation or themes that can just be done badly in an original work. For the WoT the stand outs (to me) are non-monogamy, followed with non-straight sexual attraction (which always read a bit fetishizing to me given it's exclusivity to women). Those are both incredibly easy to tweak without altering the spirit of the work at all. The series wasn't trying to comment on these beyond a gentle "Hey, maybe this is fine." and the spirit of that is simple to interpret and update with no damage to the integrity of the original work.
That's why, for me, gender identity and non-binary or trans identities are trickier. The Wheel of Time is trying to say something about gender. Not all of that is good.
- The recurring explicit narrative that men and women are effectively different species.
- The source of gender neutral magic is literally The Devil TM.
- The only (arguably) trans character is the result of unholy corruption and interference.
- Probably more stuff but this is enough to communicate the idea, yeah?
That means in order to adapt to the spirit of this we'd have to know RJ's intent. Was he trying to push a binary gender narrative, or was he regurgitating and refining his culturally dominant narrative without interrogating it, or was he trying to be inclusive and didn't have the language or education on the topic? I don't know, but if it was one of the first two, that brings up a separate question: Is that a story worth retelling? Personally, I don't think so.
EDIT: I didn't mean to sound preachy. Was I preachy? Crap, now I'm in my own head. If I came across that way, I apologize!Last edited by MammonAzrael; 2021-07-22 at 09:39 AM.
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2021-07-22, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
I don't recall anyone complaining about braid-yanking mind pointing out where you saw that?
And this IS an alternate-universe version, whether you like it or not. Changing what doesn't work for a modern audience is the soul of adaptation. One of my favorite examples of this is Netflix's Jessica Jones, vs. the Alias comic book that inspired it.
SpoilerAlias was part of Marvel's MAX lineup, which essentially introduced mature concepts like sexual assault and gratuitous nudity for shock value. JJ has a sort of similar background with the Purple Man in the comics as she does in the show, but it was ultimately much weaker in the former, with her confrontation with him coming 5 volumes in after several other storylines almost as an afterthought, needing outside help from Jean Grey and some Avengers to even stand a chance against him (after they beat her up mind you), and her being shoved into the background by Marvel right afterward until her show took off in popularity. The show improved this treatment by several light-years, resulting in one of the best first seasons of a show to ever be put to TV.
At the very least, if you're going to leave the shocking stuff intact, it needs to be faced head-on and thoroughly examined - again, like what Jessica Jones did with Kilgrave.
So by all means, leave inif you're going to do something more with that than what Jordan did - but if not, don't.SpoilerTylin abusing Mat, or Faile and Perrin abusing each other, etc
In fact, there is an instance of assault I'm actually okay with them keeping:
SpoilerAlanna bonding Rand against his will
because I think they can use that to write some pretty strong television if they treat it with the weight it needs to be treated, not to mention the plot relevance(s) this act has later in the series.
Min being enby wouldn't be a big stretch. She already is plenty comfortable bucking traditionally feminine expressions. And since she's not a channeler, you don't have to make or imply any major changes to the magic system either.Last edited by Psyren; 2021-07-22 at 09:48 AM.
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2021-07-22, 09:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
We all deserve bicon Mat Cauthon 八(^□^*)
Edit:
I would be actively upset if they took out
SpoilerMat and Tylin's relationship. That has the potential to be way too powerful to not even attempt to give it the treatment it always deserved.Last edited by Ashen Lilies; 2021-07-22 at 09:51 AM.
Originally Posted by Lord Magtok
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2021-07-22, 09:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
And iirc there is some serious question about what is actually success for them as
Spoilerthey werent sent out to actually solve all the mysteries of the world but to investigate while being stalking horses and bait to see what comes out to nibble on them. At least i think there were layers of that included in why they were chosen and all. Its been a very long time since I read the books. But them actually accomplishing anything meaningful is a big deal because they werent expected to actually do that.
As for MattSpoilerSeriously, why make him bisexual? There needs to be a reason to alter his sexual preferences beyond "Because we want a bisexual character added in" You dont just randomly decide to alter one of the main characters.. well.. character, for no reason other than "But I wanna" This is some naruto/sasuke yaoi fanfic level silliness here. Yes you can justify it if you squint real hard and interpret things differently, thats not the point. Matt isnt bisexual. Its one thing to do it to random characters that are secondary or less to the story, because altering their personalities in such a way doesnt have any knock on effect to the story itself. Its like the beauty and the beast live action thing. They made, whats his face, lefou? Not spelling that right im sure, have his "gay" moment, and while a lot of people had their freak out it didnt have any bearing on the story aside from theoretical. Had they made GASTON gay, then that would have changed everything and trying to pretend it doesnt would make it even more jarring. (Actually, im already creating a justification for that and its amusing. Gaston doesnt want to ruin his manly man image by admitting he doesnt actually like women, so he picks belle because she would be the perfect beard, not being interested in HIM. He can marry her, never touch her, and live his life from then on.)
Oh and Psyren, I was making a joke about the braid pulling thing. Its a bit of a long running gag in the thread about how women seem to express their displeasure with pulling their braid.Last edited by Traab; 2021-07-22 at 09:56 AM.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2021-07-22, 10:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
I'm well aware of what braid-pulling refers to in the series, but you seemed to think people wouldn't have wanted to see that in an adaptation.
SpoilerSame reason they made Perrin black; representation.
They have three options here:
1) imply that the Wheel of Time setting only has lesbian and bi women in it, which is pretty ridiculous,
2) create brand new characters in a show that is already full to bursting with characters and will likely need to see some cut,
3) change (or flesh out/add to) the sexuality of existing characters.
While it doesn't have to be Mat specifically, there is a really cool justification for it being him as pointed out above.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-07-22, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
I agree it wouldn’t be a huge issue for Min’s character, but the ripple effect is significant.
SpoilerRand being romantically involved with her as something other than a woman would be a change for his character. And the nobility of Cairhien and Andor reacting to Rand having enby arm-candy in the same way would be a substantial change to the setting. Probably there are other interactions and plot points that would also need to be tweaked to accommodate those changes. So while it might be in-character for Min (at least in the early books, she becomes much more feminine later on), it would be a hard change to fit into the story as it exists.
More broadly, the setting and story of WoT are pretty firmly based in a conventional understanding of sex and gender. If you don’t want to retell that story, that’s fine (though I disagree with the premise that the story doesn’t deserve to be told on that basis). If you want to tell a story that isn’t based on that paradigm, that’s fine too. But trying to make WoT into that story is unlikely to end well.
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2021-07-22, 10:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Spoiler: It's too late, WoT is gay, everything and everyone is gay.I'd argue that it would even strengthen Mat's characterization as the charming, easy-going rogue of the group. Having a character be a womanizer has gained a lot of baggage in the 40-odd years since WoT was originally written, especially considering how often Mat is pursuing someone of much lower station than him, like serving girls or castle maids. He 'justifies' it by saying he doesn't chase anyone who doesn't want to be chased, but the power dynamic of a de facto nobleman (which he becomes, no matter how much Mat may deny it) constantly hitting on service workers who aren't in the social position to say no would come across much harsher for a modern audience than it would have at the time.
Also, a character being 'merely' heterosexually promiscuous isn't hip or cool anymore.
For better or worse, as problematic as it can be, bisexuality has become somewhat the new storytelling language for sexual liberation. A Mat that's free and egalitarian with his affections to all kinds of people, with multiple different kinds of power dynamics at play, might have a better chance of recapturing the charm of the Mat we remember from the books.Last edited by Ashen Lilies; 2021-07-22 at 12:14 PM.
Originally Posted by Lord Magtok
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2021-07-22, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Agreed - and it's not like they'd have to show him openly flirting with dudes or anything like that. Just have him walk out of his inn room in the morning and glimpse the tangle of limbs he's leaving behind as the door shuts or something. Maybe a stray glance or a wink. If anyone's going to throw a really raucous party in this series (or an orgy) it'd be Mat.
Let me first say that how Min chooses to presentisn't a big deal to me either way. The important thing about her character isn't the pronouns she prefers (plenty of enby folks are fine with feminine pronouns after all), but rather the fact that she is actively and continually opposing a box that both her family (through her given name, Elmindreda) and society (by obliquely or openly disapproving of her clothing) are trying to force her into. That is the core aspect of who she is - one of them anyway. It's a great dynamic and one that the show should keep intact.
As for Rand:
SpoilerHe's attracted to Min, not her gender or pronouns. And the nobles he eventually surrounds himself with look down on her because she's a commoner, not because she doesn't wear a dress.
It's worth pointing out also that some of those noblewomen you're talking about actually end up aping her own style, making her a bit of a fashionista trendsetter and hinting at what profession she might take on after TG.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-07-22, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Honestly, Min dressing in "men's" clothes and refusing to act in ways that are traditionally feminine is kind of a dead horse trope at this point. We've had 40 years of social progress, it's just kind of staid and expected. Even if it's still "unusual" in-universe, there's a pretty blunted impact for the audience. There are some examples recently where it's been done well (Arya Stark) but a lot of the time, the "I'm not like other girls" characterization can be pretty eyeroll inducing.
Min being non-binary or some other form of gender-divergent might have a ton of utility when it comes to updating her character into something that's impactful and relevant to modern values and societal trends.Last edited by Ashen Lilies; 2021-07-22 at 10:54 AM.
Originally Posted by Lord Magtok
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2021-07-22, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
I don't disagree, but my point is that you can have an enby character without having them yell "have I mentioned I'm non-binary today!" while looking directly into camera.
Rather, the gender-nonconformist aspects of her character straight from the books - hating her given name, cutting her hair short and eschewing most makeup, wearing breeches and tunics all the time, being decked out in knives etc - are all sufficient coding for that, especially in a quasi-medieval setting.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-07-22, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
True, and I'd never advocate for bad or hamhanded writing, even if I do have a personal preference for media wearing their representation on their sleeves a bit more. It's okay to be explicit sometimes!
Though also, Min has already been cast, and as far as I know, Kae Alexander is not herself non-binary or gender divergent, and doing that sort of casting isn't the best practice, really, so the ship is probably sailed on explicit representation on that front.Last edited by Ashen Lilies; 2021-07-22 at 11:32 AM.
Originally Posted by Lord Magtok
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2021-07-22, 11:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Even if she identifies as female through and through, just the idea of a cool female protagonist with agency and powers who rejects many of the traditional trappings of femininity is still a good thing. Not as groundbreaking as it was in 1990 perhaps, but still a good thing to show on an Amazon TV show.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-07-22, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-07-22, 11:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-07-22, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Galad's canonically the prettiest man in Randland. And probably too stupid to notice/acknowledge Mat half-deliriously flirting with him while knocking him to pieces.
Last edited by Ashen Lilies; 2021-07-22 at 11:23 AM.
Originally Posted by Lord Magtok
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2021-07-22, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
I mean, he literally beat back their phallic symbols with his own, much larger phallic symbol
I'm really sad about how Gawyn
Spoilerspiraled throughout the series to become basically its most hated character. It wouldn't surprise me if he ended up being beat out by Fain or even the Black Ajah.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-07-22, 11:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-07-22, 11:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
SpoilerYeah Gawyn really did start off as a pretty decent person and loveable underdog also-ran to his way cooler and prettier older half-brother, to picking up an idiot ball the size of Neptune and tenaciously holding on to it right up until it got him and Egwene both killed. Meanwhile Galad had a much more upward trajectory from "overzealous Lawful Neutral craphead" to "probably ultimately a good and reasonable person, maybe".Originally Posted by Lord Magtok
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2021-07-22, 11:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
There are plenty of works with gay characters, and you're welcome to write even more. Altering existing works, or shoehorning things in just never ends well. Turning Mat into an offensive gay stereotype is not the answer.
Besides, representation is well and good, but I get the feeling some posters here are more concerned with their personal..."satisfaction" than anything else. There's fan fiction for that already.Last edited by Anteros; 2021-07-22 at 11:45 AM.
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2021-07-22, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Hah. Please point me to where anyone advocated for Mat to dress exclusively in bright flamingo pink, wear a feather boa, gesticulate constantly and speak with a lisp.
Adapting a character be their already existing level of horny, but with a wider range of targets, is neither offensive nor a stereotype.
Also, sex and sexuality are normal and common themes in media, and definitely a clear and present aspect within the Wheel of Time, and shaming people for engaging with and enjoying sexual themes and deriding it as fit only for fan fiction instead of something that can be present and enjoyed within mainstream media is square and uncool.Last edited by Ashen Lilies; 2021-07-22 at 12:04 PM.
Originally Posted by Lord Magtok
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2021-07-22, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
I didn't see anyone advocating for that. Of course, there are undoubtedly folks for whom any increase in representation at all would be offensive.
I really wouldn't be sad if
Spoilerthey hacked out the lion's share (heh) of the Andor succession stuff. When your series is 15 books long, all of them fat, cuts will need to be made, and that is definitely one of the least impactful subplots.
For that matter - just have Rahvin kill Morgase, it's not like she does anything significant.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-07-22, 12:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
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2021-07-22, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
I mostly agree with this, particularly when it comes to adapting an already-popular work like WoT. IMO, there’s nothing wrong with a faithful adaptation as long as it’s not actively offensive by today’s standards. Unless it’s done extremely well, adding material to address the social issues of the moment is more likely to weaken the work than improve it.
That said, if you really want to add LGBT content to WoT, bisexual Mat is a surprisingly minor change.
SpoilerBy the middle of the series, Mat has already been shown to be a heavy drinker and womanizer, so it’s fair to say he enjoys life’s pleasures. He’s also established as drawing on dead men’s memories when appropriate. It’s pretty easy to imagine a scene where he’s propositioned by a man, has a relevant flashback, then shrugs his shoulders, finishes his beer, and goes for it.Last edited by TheStranger; 2021-07-22 at 12:20 PM.
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2021-07-22, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
SpoilerExactly. The range of Mat's attraction profile has exactly as much impact on his character narrative and growth as whether Perrin is right or left handed. (I switched to Perrin because for some reason I vaguely think Mat is ambidextrous? Am I hallucinating that?)
Hard agree on cutting down/out all the later book Andoran politics.
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2021-07-22, 01:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-07-22, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Also speaking of personal "satisfaction",
Spoiler: Uno: (Baring Chest) "I am a woman."If Randland is going to have so many random ceremonies that just conveniently happen to involve large amounts of female nudity, then the men should be able to get in on the fun too. I'm just saying - Avhienda, Egwene, and Moiraine all had to go into Rhuidean naked, I don't see why Rand and Mat should be exempt.
Weird that the Asha'man never came up with any ceremonies that involved them all going pants off to 'prove' that everyone present is a man. They should definitely look into that.Last edited by Ashen Lilies; 2021-07-22 at 02:22 PM.
Originally Posted by Lord Magtok
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2021-07-22, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
If nothing else, you should get a few dozen scenes of Rand and Lan’s shirtless sword practice. I’d kind of prefer they do it the other way around, though - take out the unnecessary female nudity. I like boobs as much as anybody, but I’d rather they do their own thing instead of chasing the GoT “tits and murder” audience.
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2021-07-22, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Amazon's way too business-savvy to not realize what Female Gaze has done for Marvel to not make use of it here. We'll certainly get extended blacksmithing scenes with Perrin for one thing.
But I agree, the random/gratuitous female-only nudity is probably something the show should reconsider. I can understand it for folks going into testing ter'angreal, since those tend to dress you once inside, but for random things like political proceedings it's just wholly unnecessary.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-07-22, 02:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
If I could be indulged to dip into serious undirected analysis mode for a second here, I do think it's important to recognize the difference between the ritualized and ceremonial female nudity that's present in Wheel of Time, compared to the instances of male nudity which (to my recollection) occur in purely practical and functional contexts (not counting sex scenes).
Rand's shirtless because he's training. Rand's naked because he's going for a swim. Rand's naked because he's having a bath (I will credit RJ for also giving the boys a bath scene, even if it's not as infamous as THAT chapter).
Compared to the various circumstances where women are naked, like the aforementioned political proceedings or the Aiel first sisters ceremony which impart female nudity with unique ritual significance. It's not the same thing.
That said, I definitely do not complain at the prospect of sweaty Rand and Lan training or Perrin blacksmithing scenes.Last edited by Ashen Lilies; 2021-07-22 at 02:49 PM.
Originally Posted by Lord Magtok
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2021-07-22, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn
Ok, I need some clarification here. Is matt
And seriously, now its really starting to turn into a game of gender/sexuality bingo. Lets change matt, lets change min, lets change aiel sister wives, lets change this and that. There has yet to be any reason stated to make any of these changes beyond wanting to fill out your check list to make sure every group you can think of is represented. I was on board for some of the suggested changes like the troubling relationships betweenSpoilerremembering his past lives like how various people are constantly reborn such as brigit and her eternal lover, I am blanking on his name? Or are these random lives crammed into his skull that werent him, just memories of other people? Because if its his soul being reborn over and over again, it seems less likely that he happens to have memories of ever being gay/bi/anything other than straight as the soul stays more or less the same, even if they live a different life each time. If they are random lives then yeah its entirely possible at least one of them might have indulged in different scenarios than matt ever would have himself and thus have an influence.Both of which could use some minor adjusting and changes in emphasis to make work better in various ways. But this litany of sexual preference altering, gender assigning and other such changes are being added not because the lack of them is somehow offensive, but because you just want to see more options added for no reason other than to have a good guy who is also xy or z.Spoilermatt and whats her face, tuon? And the faile perrin trainwreck.Last edited by Traab; 2021-07-22 at 03:49 PM.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."