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Thread: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?
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2021-06-10, 06:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2005
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- Albuquerque, NM
Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?
I did that for one campaign build. Had Eladrin Bladesingers and Dwarven Stonelords (Pathfinder Paladin alternate class features to make it spell-less) updated for 5E. Halfling Rogue/Slingers, Gnome Illusionists... I think I had some others.
My current thought that I haven't had a chance to implement is to grant each race (and probably limiting the races to the Big 6) one of 3 'classes' that both epitomize the race as well as use the three power sources I have built into my world architecture (Arcane, Divine and Primal).
So, a dwarf might be able to choose between something like an Artificer/Fighter, Cleric/Paladin or Barbarian/Rogue type mashup (they're not multiclasses in the traditional sense, but instead a full class build around elements of the two, blended. Each level, if taken in comparison to the base class would be a little weaker, but taken together open up new and interesting options.
BTW, for those curious, here's how the 12* classes line up in my world:
Arcane: Arcanist, Fighter, Sorcerer, Warlock
Divine: Bard, Cleric, Monk, Paladin
Primal: Barbarian, Druid, Ranger, Rogue
*I removed Wizard long ago from my games as a class and offer Wizardry as a 1st level feat instead that turns any caster (despite type/power source) into a Vancian caster.Trollbait extraordinaire
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2021-06-10, 06:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?
The solution lies in PF2e where you build your race with racial feats as a mini class of sorts. I think that's the best way to go about it.
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2021-06-10, 09:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2019
Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?
Buffet style options sound good on paper. But that leads to the inclination of optimizing and there being clear winner and loser options. "Package deal" options in games have better spreads of representation because one takes the good with the bad. Possibly because the "packages" have stronger themes as well.
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2021-06-11, 06:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?
I'd argue that, optimisation (or choosing against it) is also part of the game, and if those options are relativelly balanced, it can make your racial choice something more interesting than just "I pick Human for the extra feat" or "Half-Elf for the Cha bonus" (Pure role playing aside). You get something that's evolving as you level, because you are X race.
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2021-06-11, 07:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2013
Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?
Bolded for emphasis.
What about features of different sizes?
What about downsides?
What about features that combined have a different total than the sum of their parts?
A buffet style has its advantages, and its disadvantages. So why not have both (see example from this thread)?
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2021-06-11, 09:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2019
Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?
I think recent additions and options have reduced the mechanical influence of the various races and allowed for greater customization with less penalty for non-synergized race/class combos, allowing more freedom to create.
I'm a big fan of the increased opportunities / freedom to pick whatever tickles your fancy - I've always preferred to play the more unique races. My current PCs are a Goblin, a Dhampir, and a Warforged, my favorite PC (may he RIP) was a Bugbear, and I look fwd to playing Lizardfolk, Vendalkin, and hopefully a ThriKreen in the future.
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2021-06-11, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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- Corvallis, OR
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Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?
Buffet style (which is basically just a chunky point-buy without saying that name) easily spirals out of control (the interactions that need to be considered grow factorially). Point buy systems require heavy "GM" control over what's acceptable to prevent them from exploding. Not just in the over-powered way, but also in the under-powered way.[1] Because there isn't a uniform way of assigning costs to things--the value changes not only with build but with level and other choices.
In general, "balance" and "diversity" are in tension. Multi-sided, non-uniform balance falls apart fast unless you homogenize everything to a large degree (cf 4e's "every ability is X damage + Y defined rider" and "everybody uses the same recharge and ability gain schedule" things).
[1] Personally, I believe that systems should either go all-in on point-buy or all-in on fixed-menu (classes that define their options internally). Mixing the two isn't so great.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.
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2021-06-11, 08:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?
That would require the packages to be balanced, using 5e as a example that was never really the case. Dissuading optimizers I think is a lost cause, and I am not convinced that balance is served better by bundles.
As for theme, that will depend a lot on the players involved, but picking features for theme would likely involve some amount of synergistic abilities so optimization isn't necessarily the enemy.
A lot of this would depend on the design team handling it more than the method chosen.
Edit: If you didn't see the typo, you are too late.Last edited by Witty Username; 2021-06-15 at 07:18 PM.
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2021-06-12, 07:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2005
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- Albuquerque, NM
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2021-06-12, 09:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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- Corvallis, OR
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Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?
I find feats to be generally poor design. But I also value sticking closer to the basic rules that people expect. So, just like the spell system, I suck up my gripes and move on. I've got half written homebrew that completely changes races, but it's half written due to lacking play testing and (more importantly) motivation.
Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.
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2021-06-13, 06:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- Newcastle, Australia
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Last edited by truemane; 2021-06-19 at 01:59 PM.
Thankyou to NEOPhyte for the Techpriest Engiseer
Spoiler
Current PC's
Ravia Del'Karro (Magos Biologis Errant)
Katarina (Ordo Malleus Interrogator)
Emberly (Fire Elemental former Chef)
Peril Planet
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2021-06-16, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- SW England
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Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?
If ASI aren't going to be tied to race, do you even need ASI at level 1?
What if you dropped them entirely, but gave other, more substantial benefits.
Like e.g. "big, strong" races get advantage on strength checks/saves, agile races get advantage on dex, etc. Possibly also give disadvantages on appropriate attributes as well.
Would that be a more effective way of mechanically representing the differences between races, rather than minor attribute bonuses that mean a half-orc is 5% better at arm-wrestling than a halfling?
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2021-06-18, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?
I figure there is no real problem with a Str 16 Halfling and a Str 16 Half-Orc working together against NPCs or the environment, but it gets a bit weird for me when they are matching up against each other. I guess one could homebrew in special rules to make some account for difference in character size:
When making opposed ability checks, the larger character adds a +2 bonus to his Strength (Athletics) check, and the smaller character adds +2 to his Dexterity (Acrobatics) check.
I wouldn't want to modify the races specifically - too much ground to cover.
-DF
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2021-06-18, 04:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?
I don't even have a problem with "the strongest halfling" and "the strongest half-orc" both being Str 20. Both are exceptional. The halfling just a little more so, given that the average half-orc is stronger than the average halfling. What bugs me is that we now are in a situation, due to TCE's rules becoming "the standard," where the average halfling is just as strong as the average half-orc.
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2021-06-18, 05:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
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2021-06-18, 05:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2019
Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?
The stat blocks were already race independent. So a half orc commoner already had the same stats as the halfling commoner unless the DM optionally added the racial features to the NPC stat blocks. And if they are modifying the statblock then they can still choose to assign the floating +2 asi to str for the half orc and dex for the halfling so nothing has changed.
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2021-06-18, 05:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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2021-06-18, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
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2021-06-18, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2012
Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?
New idea. After character creation, the player rolls a 1d10000. If they don't roll 10000 they have to retire the character before the start of the adventure and make up a new character (who most also roll a 1d10000).
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2021-06-18, 06:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2016
Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?
Last edited by truemane; 2021-06-19 at 02:04 PM.
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2021-06-18, 07:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
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2021-06-19, 10:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2005
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- Albuquerque, NM
Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?
It can be even worse with rolling. Play a Half-orc wizard. You roll 18,17,15,12,7,3. You gonna toss those stats? Hell no. You're just gonna be the weakest ass Horc that ever lived. Maybe you opt to be an artificer instead, and build yourself a sweet pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Power... or maybe you just hire/charm/dominate some strong
bodyguardsSherpa to haul your stuff around.
Just because PB/SA are the way char-op is done because it creates a level playing field for discussion, doesn't mean rolling is obsolete. Outside of AL, I don't encounter PB at all. YMMV.Trollbait extraordinaire