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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    See, this was where the 3.5e Unearthed Arcana book was neat - it had "Racial Paragon" classes that were exactly that - basically classes as races (bit more complex than that, but that's the gist of it).
    I did that for one campaign build. Had Eladrin Bladesingers and Dwarven Stonelords (Pathfinder Paladin alternate class features to make it spell-less) updated for 5E. Halfling Rogue/Slingers, Gnome Illusionists... I think I had some others.

    My current thought that I haven't had a chance to implement is to grant each race (and probably limiting the races to the Big 6) one of 3 'classes' that both epitomize the race as well as use the three power sources I have built into my world architecture (Arcane, Divine and Primal).

    So, a dwarf might be able to choose between something like an Artificer/Fighter, Cleric/Paladin or Barbarian/Rogue type mashup (they're not multiclasses in the traditional sense, but instead a full class build around elements of the two, blended. Each level, if taken in comparison to the base class would be a little weaker, but taken together open up new and interesting options.

    BTW, for those curious, here's how the 12* classes line up in my world:

    Arcane: Arcanist, Fighter, Sorcerer, Warlock
    Divine: Bard, Cleric, Monk, Paladin
    Primal: Barbarian, Druid, Ranger, Rogue

    *I removed Wizard long ago from my games as a class and offer Wizardry as a 1st level feat instead that turns any caster (despite type/power source) into a Vancian caster.
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Asmotherion's Avatar

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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    The solution lies in PF2e where you build your race with racial feats as a mini class of sorts. I think that's the best way to go about it.

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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmotherion View Post
    The solution lies in PF2e where you build your race with racial feats as a mini class of sorts. I think that's the best way to go about it.
    Buffet style options sound good on paper. But that leads to the inclination of optimizing and there being clear winner and loser options. "Package deal" options in games have better spreads of representation because one takes the good with the bad. Possibly because the "packages" have stronger themes as well.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Asmotherion's Avatar

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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by TyGuy View Post
    Buffet style options sound good on paper. But that leads to the inclination of optimizing and there being clear winner and loser options. "Package deal" options in games have better spreads of representation because one takes the good with the bad. Possibly because the "packages" have stronger themes as well.
    I'd argue that, optimisation (or choosing against it) is also part of the game, and if those options are relativelly balanced, it can make your racial choice something more interesting than just "I pick Human for the extra feat" or "Half-Elf for the Cha bonus" (Pure role playing aside). You get something that's evolving as you level, because you are X race.

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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmotherion View Post
    I'd argue that, optimisation (or choosing against it) is also part of the game, and if those options are relativelly balanced, it can make your racial choice something more interesting than just "I pick Human for the extra feat" or "Half-Elf for the Cha bonus" (Pure role playing aside). You get something that's evolving as you level, because you are X race.
    Bolded for emphasis.

    What about features of different sizes?
    What about downsides?
    What about features that combined have a different total than the sum of their parts?

    A buffet style has its advantages, and its disadvantages. So why not have both (see example from this thread)?

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    I think recent additions and options have reduced the mechanical influence of the various races and allowed for greater customization with less penalty for non-synergized race/class combos, allowing more freedom to create.

    I'm a big fan of the increased opportunities / freedom to pick whatever tickles your fancy - I've always preferred to play the more unique races. My current PCs are a Goblin, a Dhampir, and a Warforged, my favorite PC (may he RIP) was a Bugbear, and I look fwd to playing Lizardfolk, Vendalkin, and hopefully a ThriKreen in the future.

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    Bolded for emphasis.

    What about features of different sizes?
    What about downsides?
    What about features that combined have a different total than the sum of their parts?

    A buffet style has its advantages, and its disadvantages. So why not have both (see example from this thread)?
    Buffet style (which is basically just a chunky point-buy without saying that name) easily spirals out of control (the interactions that need to be considered grow factorially). Point buy systems require heavy "GM" control over what's acceptable to prevent them from exploding. Not just in the over-powered way, but also in the under-powered way.[1] Because there isn't a uniform way of assigning costs to things--the value changes not only with build but with level and other choices.

    In general, "balance" and "diversity" are in tension. Multi-sided, non-uniform balance falls apart fast unless you homogenize everything to a large degree (cf 4e's "every ability is X damage + Y defined rider" and "everybody uses the same recharge and ability gain schedule" things).

    [1] Personally, I believe that systems should either go all-in on point-buy or all-in on fixed-menu (classes that define their options internally). Mixing the two isn't so great.
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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by TyGuy View Post
    Buffet style options sound good on paper. But that leads to the inclination of optimizing and there being clear winner and loser options. "Package deal" options in games have better spreads of representation because one takes the good with the bad. Possibly because the "packages" have stronger themes as well.
    That would require the packages to be balanced, using 5e as a example that was never really the case. Dissuading optimizers I think is a lost cause, and I am not convinced that balance is served better by bundles.
    As for theme, that will depend a lot on the players involved, but picking features for theme would likely involve some amount of synergistic abilities so optimization isn't necessarily the enemy.
    A lot of this would depend on the design team handling it more than the method chosen.

    Edit: If you didn't see the typo, you are too late.
    Last edited by Witty Username; 2021-06-15 at 07:18 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    [1] Personally, I believe that systems should either go all-in on point-buy or all-in on fixed-menu (classes that define their options internally). Mixing the two isn't so great.
    So, you've never allowed variant humans in your games? All I did was replace the feat with a list of mostly PHB race abilities.
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  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoxus View Post
    So, you've never allowed variant humans in your games? All I did was replace the feat with a list of mostly PHB race abilities.
    I find feats to be generally poor design. But I also value sticking closer to the basic rules that people expect. So, just like the spell system, I suck up my gripes and move on. I've got half written homebrew that completely changes races, but it's half written due to lacking play testing and (more importantly) motivation.
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  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Leon's Avatar

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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Witty Username View Post
    Do races no longer serve a useful purpose in D&D?
    {Scrubbed}
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  12. - Top - End - #162
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    If ASI aren't going to be tied to race, do you even need ASI at level 1?

    What if you dropped them entirely, but gave other, more substantial benefits.

    Like e.g. "big, strong" races get advantage on strength checks/saves, agile races get advantage on dex, etc. Possibly also give disadvantages on appropriate attributes as well.

    Would that be a more effective way of mechanically representing the differences between races, rather than minor attribute bonuses that mean a half-orc is 5% better at arm-wrestling than a halfling?

  13. - Top - End - #163
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    If ASI aren't going to be tied to race, do you even need ASI at level 1?

    What if you dropped them entirely, but gave other, more substantial benefits.

    Like e.g. "big, strong" races get advantage on strength checks/saves, agile races get advantage on dex, etc. Possibly also give disadvantages on appropriate attributes as well.

    Would that be a more effective way of mechanically representing the differences between races, rather than minor attribute bonuses that mean a half-orc is 5% better at arm-wrestling than a halfling?
    I figure there is no real problem with a Str 16 Halfling and a Str 16 Half-Orc working together against NPCs or the environment, but it gets a bit weird for me when they are matching up against each other. I guess one could homebrew in special rules to make some account for difference in character size:

    When making opposed ability checks, the larger character adds a +2 bonus to his Strength (Athletics) check, and the smaller character adds +2 to his Dexterity (Acrobatics) check.

    I wouldn't want to modify the races specifically - too much ground to cover.

    -DF

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by DwarfFighter View Post
    I figure there is no real problem with a Str 16 Halfling and a Str 16 Half-Orc working together against NPCs or the environment, but it gets a bit weird for me when they are matching up against each other. I guess one could homebrew in special rules to make some account for difference in character size:

    When making opposed ability checks, the larger character adds a +2 bonus to his Strength (Athletics) check, and the smaller character adds +2 to his Dexterity (Acrobatics) check.

    I wouldn't want to modify the races specifically - too much ground to cover.

    -DF
    I don't even have a problem with "the strongest halfling" and "the strongest half-orc" both being Str 20. Both are exceptional. The halfling just a little more so, given that the average half-orc is stronger than the average halfling. What bugs me is that we now are in a situation, due to TCE's rules becoming "the standard," where the average halfling is just as strong as the average half-orc.

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I don't even have a problem with "the strongest halfling" and "the strongest half-orc" both being Str 20. Both are exceptional. The halfling just a little more so, given that the average half-orc is stronger than the average halfling. What bugs me is that we now are in a situation, due to TCE's rules becoming "the standard," where the average halfling is just as strong as the average half-orc.
    I think the intention, though, is that only PCs get that kind of flexibility. NPC halfings are still intended to be weaker than NPC orcs, on average.

  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I don't even have a problem with "the strongest halfling" and "the strongest half-orc" both being Str 20. Both are exceptional. The halfling just a little more so, given that the average half-orc is stronger than the average halfling. What bugs me is that we now are in a situation, due to TCE's rules becoming "the standard," where the average halfling is just as strong as the average half-orc.
    The stat blocks were already race independent. So a half orc commoner already had the same stats as the halfling commoner unless the DM optionally added the racial features to the NPC stat blocks. And if they are modifying the statblock then they can still choose to assign the floating +2 asi to str for the half orc and dex for the halfling so nothing has changed.

  17. - Top - End - #167
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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by EggKookoo View Post
    I think the intention, though, is that only PCs get that kind of flexibility.
    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by truemane; 2021-06-19 at 02:05 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #168
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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomSoul View Post
    {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
    I think that's exactly it. If PCs represented the average, they would stay home being average. They wouldn't be out in the world adventuring and being exceptional.
    Last edited by truemane; 2021-06-19 at 02:05 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Elbeyon's Avatar

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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    New idea. After character creation, the player rolls a 1d10000. If they don't roll 10000 they have to retire the character before the start of the adventure and make up a new character (who most also roll a 1d10000).

  20. - Top - End - #170
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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by EggKookoo View Post
    I think that's exactly it. If PCs represented the average, they would stay home being average. They wouldn't be out in the world adventuring and being exceptional.
    {Scrubbed} You already reflect individual variation (that's the "you're exceptional" bit) and your racial ability scores add to that (except apparently you-the-character get to ignore your species and override it -- nope).
    Last edited by truemane; 2021-06-19 at 02:04 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #171
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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomSoul View Post
    {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
    You already reflect individual variation (that's the "you're exceptional" bit) and your racial ability scores add to that (except apparently you-the-character get to ignore your species and override it -- nope).
    I mean, except, yup. You've always been able to do this. Take a PHB dwarf. Use the standard array. Put the 8 on your Con, +2, it's 10. Put the 15 on Cha. Become a warlock. Profit.
    Last edited by truemane; 2021-06-19 at 02:06 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #172
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Are Races Vistigial in D&D?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomSoul View Post
    Yeah, again, they're apparently so ~great~ that they're undoing their species (congrats, your orc is a weakling?). Idiotic. You already reflect individual variation (that's the "you're exceptional" bit) and your racial ability scores add to that (except apparently you-the-character get to ignore your species and override it -- nope).
    Quote Originally Posted by EggKookoo View Post
    I mean, except, yup. You've always been able to do this. Take a PHB dwarf. Use the standard array. Put the 8 on your Con, +2, it's 10. Put the 15 on Cha. Become a warlock. Profit.
    It can be even worse with rolling. Play a Half-orc wizard. You roll 18,17,15,12,7,3. You gonna toss those stats? Hell no. You're just gonna be the weakest ass Horc that ever lived. Maybe you opt to be an artificer instead, and build yourself a sweet pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Power... or maybe you just hire/charm/dominate some strong bodyguards Sherpa to haul your stuff around.

    Just because PB/SA are the way char-op is done because it creates a level playing field for discussion, doesn't mean rolling is obsolete. Outside of AL, I don't encounter PB at all. YMMV.
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