Villainous Competition XL+1: Gojira!

[ciopo]

Yeah, and boy was that a romp.

Also, insert joke about "What ____ ____?" Here

Thanks Mattie_p, for judging

[GreatWyrmGold]

They fill the same ... ecological niche? Narratological niche! I think that's a suitable term for this sort of thing. (Narratology is the study of narrative and narrative structure and the ways that these affect human perception. Learned something new today).

Well, aside from the Simurgh—kaiju are very rarely masterminds,.

For that matter, Godzilla, perhaps the quintessential kaiju and the foundational example of the genre, itself doesn't qualify for this competition. The OG Godzilla (I watched the 1954 version today with subtitles for "background research purposes") was perhaps 50 meters or 165 feet tall, too large for colossal, and has only grown since then.

Colossal has, legally, no defined upper bound. Even if we assume that it only reaches to 128 feet, 165 is still well within Colossal+.

[mattie_p]

Yeah, and boy was that a romp.

Also, insert joke about "What ____ ____?" Here

Thanks Mattie_p, for judging

I don't know what you're talking about? I think I mentioned Worth the Candle as an example of the genre lacking that niche. Check my post again.

[loky1109]

I was hoping to see somebody do something like Venerable Half-Dragon Kobold Wizard 18 with dragonwrought feat. Just see how PC nonsense stacks up when you just make them arbitrarily Colossal.

How can dragonwrought Venerable Half-Dragon Kobold Wizard 18 be Colossal? Please explain it to me.

[GreatWyrmGold]

> dragonwrought kobold
> half-dragon

Five gold says it relies on some kind of dragon- and/or true-dragon-related shenanigans.

[AvatarVecna]

How can dragonwrought Venerable Half-Dragon Kobold Wizard 18 be Colossal? Please explain it to me.

> dragonwrought kobold
> half-dragon

Five gold says it relies on some kind of dragon- and/or true-dragon-related shenanigans.

That's essentially the idea. It's something I've seen done here and there as silly nonsense, but I'm not entirely sure it works? In any case, I'm not exactly well-versed enough in those kobold shenanigans to properly make it work, so I was hoping somebody else would go that route - somebody who was familiar with those shenanigans and had enough time to get a real build together. Anywhere, here's the thing that would do it.

Size
One important element of dragon advancement is increasing size. The dragons that don’t reach Colossal size by the great wyrm stage can never reach it according to the standard advancement rules. When advancing a dragon, consider its basic size group: lesser (white, black, brass, and copper dragons), ordinary (green, blue, and bronze dragons), greater (silver, red, and gold), or epic (force and prismatic). A dragon that is Tiny as a wyrmling is in the lesser group, a dragon that is Small as a wyrmling and never reaches Colossal size is in the ordinary group, and a dragon that is Small to Large as a wyrmling and reaches Colossal by the great wyrm stage is in the greater group. A lesser dragon becomes Colossal when it gains two age categories (6 Hit Dice) beyond great wyrm. It increases to Colossal+ when it gains an additional four age categories (12 HD). An ordinary dragon becomes Colossal when it gains one age category (3 Hit Dice) beyond great wyrm. It increases to Colossal+ when it gains an additional four age categories (12 HD). A greater dragon becomes Colossal+ when it gains four age categories (12 HD) more than it needed to reach the Colossal size.

Epic dragons, already Colossal+ by the time they reach the great wyrm stage, do not increase in size thereafter. Use the information presented under the epic dragon entry, below, to determine the statistics of a Colossal+ dragon.

This isn't a thing for true dragons, just dragons. "A dragon that is Tiny as a wyrmling is in the lesser group" or "A dragon that is Small as a wyrmling and never reaches Colossal size is in the ordinary group" would apply to kobolds if kobolds had some way to count as a wyrmling when they're a child, which I think there's a way since I've seen people do this but I'm not 100% sure? And it doesn't specify racial HD so that could just be class levels, and your kobold (supposedly) becomes Colossal at HD 7 and Colossal+ at HD 19.

I found it funny partially because you'd have to be like...wizard 18 or whatever, because if you went wizard 19, you'd be Colossal+ and be disqualified from the contest.

[loky1109]

This isn't a thing for true dragons, just dragons. "A dragon that is Tiny as a wyrmling is in the lesser group" or "A dragon that is Small as a wyrmling and never reaches Colossal size is in the ordinary group" would apply to kobolds if kobolds had some way to count as a wyrmling when they're a child, which I think there's a way since I've seen people do this but I'm not 100% sure? And it doesn't specify racial HD so that could just be class levels, and your kobold (supposedly) becomes Colossal at HD 7 and Colossal+ at HD 19.

I found it funny partially because you'd have to be like...wizard 18 or whatever, because if you went wizard 19, you'd be Colossal+ and be disqualified from the contest.

I see... But this doesn't work. Venerable != great wyrm.

[AvatarVecna]

I see... But this doesn't work. Venerable != great wyrm.

That's my thought as well. Nonetheless, I've seen people argue that it works. Since I'm not really on the up-and-up on why they think it should work, I didn't end up making that build, but I was hoping somebody would so I could see a build that was basically just dragonwrought shenanigans.

[mattie_p]

I see... But this doesn't work. Venerable != great wyrm.

That's my thought as well. Nonetheless, I've seen people argue that it works. Since I'm not really on the up-and-up on why they think it should work, I didn't end up making that build, but I was hoping somebody would so I could see a build that was basically just dragonwrought shenanigans.

There's two tables on page 39 of Races of the Dragon that describe Kobold ages. The first lays out the 12 age categories of true dragons and assigns an age range in months or years. The second describes the "traditional" aging effects of middle age, old, and venerable. That's why some people argue that it works. Nevertheless, I don't have to make a judgement on it because no one submitted such an entry, so I'll leave my opinions on the matter out.

[Thurbane]

Yeah, DWK cheese has been hotly debated ever since the release of RotD. Probably not worth launching into a 3 page back and forth here.

[mattie_p]

There's only like 2 active threads debating it currently on this forum. I don't think we need a third!

[AvatarVecna]

There's only like 2 active threads debating it currently on this forum. I don't think we need a third!

Especially since nobody actually submitted such a build. I just thought it would be funny because it's such a VC thing to happen: 14 people build proper monsters, and one person somehow still managed to just build a full caster who happens to be colossal.

[JyP]

Well, there's a case to be made about Earth-616 Godzilla suddenly being reduced to a minuscule lizard size or human size in New York by Pym particles... So it would have been fun to stat Godzilla himself then reduce its size. Maybe by using a dragon as a basis ?

a red dragon is sufficient to cover Medium size (wyrmling) up to Colossal size(Great wyrm)
then we would need to reduce size again... maybe through dungeonbred template, or by comparing to smaller dragons.

[GreatWyrmGold]

So, random thoughts on the builds.

Spoiler: That

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The three whales are very different from each other. We have Oberon's wild (sea) oats on an eternal quest to find his non-immortal mother, a quarter-dragon who hates books because his grandpa thinks he's an idiot, and a surprisingly-mundane whale who fused with the local diplomat and wants to take vengeance on whalers. Interestingly, each has a different elemental alignment—Great Big Blue is air, Kekikike is fire, and the Wrath of Bittersea is water (or earth with the Elder Island Option). I kinda want to make an earth/water whale to complete the full set.

Aquatic incarnum tarrasque is a tarrasque with neat tricks. Really makes me wish the chair decided to move the CR cap to 30 like I remember someone suggesting.

what am I doing?

What a mood.
Anyways, using a creature the PCs can encounter at every level is pretty cool. And it's a smoky undead kaiju, which is pretty unique!

Ma'enloth...eh. Any shenanigans which massively reduce CR are a turn-off for me, I prefer my kaiju to be a bit more thematically-rich than "evil god wanted a monster of the week," and I'm not sure what a "ARACHNOID ACID BORN TITANIC AQUATIC LEOPARD EFFIGY DRIDER" is supposed to be even before becoming a paragon abyss-corruptedcorrupted petitioner. That last point wouldn't be so bad if you threw together some art of what that monster might look like, the way the Wrath of Bittersea's author did, but you didn't, so...
It's hard to judge on anything but a mechanical level, and that makes it very boring to me. Especially since the mechanics boil down to "What if the tarrasque was a glass cannon, and also a spider?"

The Tower of Angarngi is a neat idea. I'm not sure it technically follows the contest rules, but I like it!

I'd like to thank whoever made Irralisk for clearly marking the abilities that don't survive the Brood Spawn template. That almost makes up for the CR-reduction cheese. You know, in case the half-prismatic-dragon prismatic dragon wasn't silly enough. ("other half also prismatic dragon.")

Xokhtohm is like a fusion of a monster-of-the-week kaiju like Ma'enloth and the more thematic kaiju I mentioned when critiquing it. Xokhtohm is a monster created by those it wishes to destroy, by a dwarven cleric taking too much joy in the pain of their enemies...but at the same time, she's still a paragon of a species known for extreme xenophobia.
Third time pointing out I dislike CR-reduction cheese on principle.
Speaking of which, Disembodied Spirit prohibits you from taking anything but a single move action per turn. The description doesn't mention this. Are you misinterpreting that line as "The spirit loses its attacks, and on an unrelated note can't double move"?

What is Megalon, exactly? A statue turned into a giant turned into a beetle-man? (I mean, the real answer is obviously "a guy in a fancy rubber suit," but that's never stopped me before. Come to think of it...tokusatsu shows in a D&D world could be a lot more flexible, considering that your rubber-suit actors could be anything between halflings and ogres in size—or wider, if you can find less-common races eager to enter showbiz.)
But for all that its visual design makes it look like a Power Rangers villain, in play it's more like an Endbringer. It's basically unstoppable (without the right SoD and a good spell resistance check), and all you can do is mitigate the damage. In theory. (Rise of the Runelords's Black Magga is supposed to be like that, but when I ran it the party alchemist panicked and killed it in two rounds.)
Granted, this is just a step removed from the CR-reduction cheese, and not much of a step. But for some reason, it doesn't bug me as much here.

There should have been more dinosaurs. (I'd have probably made a dinosaur if I'd known there would be this few.) For that matter, more dinosaurs should be Colossal. And this dinosaur has a pet dinosaur, so that helps balance the scales.
Aside from that...it's a well-designed initiator brute.

Dragon Magazine is specifically disallowed, which seems like it'll take the wind out of Zardoz's sails. The build also seems to be short on the kinds of details this kind of contest generally expects, like a build table. But a giant flying stone head is a neat idea.

I'm not a judge, so my thoughts don't have any effect on scoring. But I can have an effect on HM. I personally think my entry is the most unexpected, but I'm super biased on that. Other than that, the werebeetle, kung-fu dinosaur, and living tower are competing for the spot. Angarngi doesn't seem to have a full 20-level build, which knocks it out of the running pretty quickly, but Megalon and Ixalli are closer. I think I'll have to give my HM to Ixalli; Megalon's unstoppable juggernaut schtick is cool, but it got there with moderate CR-reduction cheese. Plus, kung fu dinosaur.

[mattie_p]

So team, quick update from the judge here. I'm not going to read any of your commentary but I appreciate you keeping it in spoilers so help me avoid undue influence.

I've finished the second re-read of each entry and I'm well on my way toward my goal. I expect to have published results by maybe Saturday or Sunday. Lots of notes on each build, the playground never ceases to surprise me.

[AvatarVecna]

My HM goes to Wrath Of The Bittersea. I like how the weirdness of the build means that it can be interpreted in a few different ways. It allows a DM employing this build to have it be weaker or stronger as is fitting for the party. Symbiote as a way to get a colossal creature with class levels opens up a lot of possibilities for shenanigans.

[Thurbane]

My HM goes to Ixalli.

Along with Kekikike and Great Big Blue, I actually understood what the heck was going on with the build.

Most of the others gave me varying degrees of Wis damage trying to decipher.

Speaking of that, how about a "Back to Basics" round at some point; no more than 1 or 2 templates (heck, maybe even no tempates), no were-devastion this or were-legendary that, no Epic stuff, no Incarnate Construct, no Shapesand, no simulacrums, no Tauric, no Symbiotic etc. You know, something a pre-epic party might actually stand a chance against.

If you were worried about that creating a field full of Wizard 20 or similar, maybe there could be reqs for a certain number of RHD.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Sounds like it could be interesting, though we'd need some sort of solid criteria for what qualifies as a "basic" build.

(And I think that capping allowable class levels is a better idea than requiring a certain number of RHD; otherwise, your hypothetical Wiz-20 wannabes would just find the lowest-CR monster with the required HD and fill the rest with wizard levels.)

[loky1109]

I think were-cheese (and over sorts of cheese) is in many ways thing of this round. This was very firsts in my mind, when I heard "only Collosal size".
I saw similar builds only few times in all previous rounds. Maybe I remembered only part, but anyway they are smaller part.

"Back to Basics" could be interesting. Or could not to be. Only this restriction looks too much generally. It needs some additionals.

[Thurbane]

Yeah, the reqs for "Back to Basics" probably need a fair bit of tweaking.

I love this comp, more so than any other forum comp, but the TO level entries layering a dozen templates ,spell effects and getting an absurd number of HD (I mean in a Kaiju round, massive HD was to be expected, of course. I mean more generally in other rounds) don't do much to inspire me for BBEGs at my table. If I was to eyeball the CRs, there's no way I could use most these pre-epic.

Again, just to clarify, not aimed at any entries this round, general observation on the comp. Kaiju round might not have been the best time for me to mention this, in hindsight.

In short, I like that VC can be used as a TO showcase, but the entries that really stick with me are the ones where I think "Man, that would be a great encounter for my party!".

[mattie_p]

Alright team, a few things to get out of the way before reavealing the judgement. Several of my books and references got used heavily in this. (41 total books measured 25-3/4 inches when stacked!) I paid particular attention to Monster Manual 3.5, p 290-294 (Also, 295-302, but less so, as that is about making a brand new monster from scratch). Savage Species p6-8, Basics of Monster Characters, was essentially permanently open except when I had to flip elsewhere in the book. P11 (Skill Points and Feats) was also important. Special Callout to Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook which should be required reading for this competition (and probably for GreatWyrmGold's Monstrous Adventure Competition as well).

I've been involved in Iron Chef and it's sister competitions over a span of years, but I have to admit being a little unfamiliar with the Villainous Competition. I haven't participated in previous ones, so my rulings may not quite follow prior precedents. If I'm way out of bounds, chair, please let me know. This competition is about creating a monster to challenge a party, so it's built from the DM perspective, not from the perspective of a player trying to convince a DM to permit something. From that standpoint, things that would make me squint in other competitions will merit a pass here provided you try to sell it. But it's not unlimited license.

I basically checked all the things. This is an optimization contest, after all. If you selected templates, I ran through them in order that you indicated, checking pre-requisites at every change and manually adjusting ability scores on paper. When you applied feats, I checked them in the order that you indicated, at the hit dice that were implied (for creatures that start with a lot of racial hit dice, I still checked them in order, first to last, checking hit dice, BAB, saves, skills, as applicable). I purchased and downloaded Dragon 289 from Paizo so I could read for myself what the Kaiju template. Every entry has a 1-page hand-written sheet of paper filled with notes and feedback. I left no stone unturned in my quest to find the best submitted Kaiju.

I left opening notes intact for each based on my initial reading before I got into weeds. As a reminder, baseline score in each category is 3, with ad-hoc adjustments up or down. In accordance with the primary source rules, the description of my ad-hoc adjustments is the primary source, not the sum that I provided. If the sum doesn't match the adjustments, the adjustments are correct.


Great Big Blue: 11.5

Spoiler

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Oberon getting punked by Thor, nice. Whale - how we getting intelligence? Probably from Oberon. Sould have liked a narrative and tactics at key levels.

Originality: 3. Whales were popular (-0.75). Half-fey is a nice touch (+0.5). No ToB or MoI, really. Way to buck the trends in recent competitions (+0.25).

Elegance: 3. Got a little sloppy applying the template. Check MM 291-2. You got 2 STR from nowhere. Half-fey changes skill points per hit die. Incorrectly calculated saves with fey hit dice (should keep animal saves) (-0.25). The Feat Quicken SLA is implied at 3HD. Requires 10HD. Mass invis is gained at 13HD (-0.25). Overall wasn't challenging to understand, most everything that I needed to check was obvious (+0.5).

Power and Competence: 2.5 Natural flight/mobility (+0.25) 9th Level spells and some good SLAs (+0.5). Armor class is low at just 20, DR is nothing to celebrate (-0.5). HP Pool pretty low, a CR equivalent party could probably kill Big Blue pretty quickly (-0.25). No DR/Regen (-0.25). 2 Attacks per round, (you miscalculated damage on both (bite 8d6+17, tail slap 2d6+8)) it's not really a lot. Maybe you mostly magic them? - (-0.25).

Memorable Villainy: 3 Colossal in form (+0.25). Element: Air (+0.25). No energy substitutions included (+0.25). Alignment: Unknown (-0.25). You have a statblock at key levels but without suggested tactics it's hard to see how this would be anything but the monster of the week (-0.25). A flying whale that dies to a pounce-charger is not the next summer blockbuster (-0.25).

Wrath of Bittersea 9.5 -> 9.75

Spoiler

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Storywise, seems like Akilu could have wildshaped into something and escaped her cage/leash. How the _____ does the symbiotic template work? Looks ... a lot like leadership. Nice adaptation notes. Did I mention I hate symbiotic creatures?

Originality: 3 Whales were popular (-0.75). Symbiotic was ... not expected (+0.5). I'll also give you a little extra credit for wildshape (+0.25).

Elegance: 1 This ... really looks a lot like leadership: taking Akilu, leveling her up, becoming symbiotic with her, and then detaching her to operate independently. Being leadership adjacent merits a penalty: I want to make my stance on this perfectly clear and offer zero incentives to move in this direction (-1). To avoid this sort of penalty from me in the future, take an unmodified creature (no extra hit dice, no class levels) as the guest, and do not mention it again. Also, the Symbiotic template made my brain hurt. You, the constructor, seemingly didn't know how to interpret it, so I got several different versions I had to wade through. (-0.5). What I decided was this: The symbiotic creature is a single creature. Class levels, skill ranks, and feats are taken by the symbiotic creature as a whole. "A symbiotic creature can use a special attack of either the host or guest but cannot use both in the same round (unless ...)." If they detach, Wrath or Akilu can do a special attack, Wrath doesn't get double actions per round for detaching. Now, you miscalculated ability scores based off the array you said you were using and gave the Elder 3 extra points in Dex, which means you don't qualify for Stunning Fist (-0.25). At 6 hit dice there is no way that Wrath has the needed 8 ranks in Jump cross-class, and doesn't yet have Power Attack, to qualify for Leap Attack (-0.25). Wrath also took some ... unusually complicated feats (IUS, SUS, Open Chakra - waist (does the whale even have a waist?)) prior to becoming symbiotic, which seems inelegant (-0.25). I checked your maneuvers you seem to qualify for those. Below minimum score = 1.

Power and Competence: 2.5 Wildshape offers a lot of utility and mobility (+0.25). Armor class is low with nothing really padding it (-0.5). No DR/Regen (-0.25). HP Pool pretty low, a CR equivalent party could probably kill the Wrath pretty quickly (-0.25). The meldshaping and maneuvers do offer a lot of both benefits and boosts to power. Only two natural attacks from the base creature, but totemist adds more (+0.25).

Memorable Villainy: 3.25 Colossal in form (+0.25). Element: Unknown (I mean you live in the water but you're taking maneuvers like Leaping Flame and Desert Tempest) (-0.25) No penalty.. No energy substitutions included (+0.25). Alignment: Unknown (-0.25). The story and adaptation notes helps sell the villainy a little (+0.25). I'm a little disappointed that there were no statblocks offered at various CRs, I'd have to do a lot of manual calculations to add it into a game (-0.25). Is this a blockbuster? I see it as a tragic antihero story, not a blockbuster, but should get some traction at the boxoffice.

Tarrasque-er 11.75 -> 12.25

Spoiler

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So, it's the tarrasque, but modified, right? Just making sure I'm not missing something. Oh! We're abusing Gate and Wish. Cool, cool. I hope you did your feats in order or something.

Originality: 1.5 So it seems like you went to the d20SRD monster filter and used the size and CR filters and picked the only monster there at Colossal CR20. I'm not saying you did, it just totally looks like you did. I mean, at least pick a Garngrath or something (-1.5).

Elegance: 2 No templates or any added racial hit dice so this will be pretty easy to read, thank you (+0.5). But there was sloppy feat selection order. Planar touchstone feat at RHD 6, no way to have 8 skill ranks needed (-0.25). Martial Study (Greater Divine Surge), at 18HD you have IL 9, needs IL15 (-0.25). Martial Stance (Aura of Chaos), at 21HD you have IL 10, needs IL 11 (-0.25). Let's talk Planar Chausible and Gate shenanigans. If you're going to sell this, even as a DM, you really need to have your ducks in a row, which you don't. Wish has the following language:

Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.

Once a week is not in immediate succession. You should have asked your called being for tomes. Speaking of your called being, you said that you were Chaotic Evil so you could gate in Pit Fiends. Pit Fiends are Lawful Evil Devils. You can gate in CE Balors, but they cannot use wish (-0.5) (-0.25). Improved Critical. You said:

There might be some dispute on improved critical. Some might feel it doesn't stack with our (ex) Augmented critical

Here's what the PHB says:

This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon

I don't know why you picked this at all (-0.5) (-0.25).

Power and Competence: 4.5 So it's the tarrasque. Decent AC with solid HP pool. Decent SR (+0.25). Good DR / Regen (+0.5). Strong Attacks (+0.5). Meldshaping + Maneuvers (+0.25).

Memorable Villainy: 4 Colossal in form (+0.25). Element: Water (+0.25). No energy substitutions included (+0.25). Alignment: Chaotic Evil (+0.25). If there's a blockbuster, this is like part 4. When they start running out of ideas so they bring back the monster from the first movie but add some stuff too it. It'll sell tickets, but it's not defining the genre.

The Wind that Wends 16.25 -> 16.5

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Grows up? How small are we starting with - oh, I guess "small." I see Expansion, you get to Colossal organically? Inorganically? Can this creature really get that many hit dice? I guess I'll find out. You're going to make me check pre-reqs for every feat aren't you.

Originality: 4.5 Vasuthant doesn't roll around very much IMO (+0.5). Luck Feats (+0.25). CHA based kaiju? (+0.5). I'm on board. No ToB or MoI gets a small boost here (+0.25).

Elegance: 3 There's a fluff pre-req to Eyes to the Sky that you don't address. Kinda close enough Force of Personality you don't cite a source. Hidden Talent you cite the wrong source. Individually one would slide, collectively, (-0.5) (-0.25). Re: Expansion. You said

if you rule that the SRD version is the correct one despite being no errata on the matter

There is errata on the matter. Please double check your work (-0.25). Overall wasn't challenging to understand, most everything that I needed to check was obvious (+0.5).

Power and Competence: 3.5 Good peak AC (+0.5), although it really is a burst before it drops back to moderate levels (-0.25). Natural flight (+0.25). No DR / Regen (-0.25). Average sized HP Pool to play with. One decent attack (-0.25). Luck feats and CHA to everything (+0.5).

Memorable Villainy: 4.5 Colossal in form (+0.25). Element: Air (+0.25). No energy substitutions included (+0.25). Alignment: Chaotic Evil (+0.25). So there's only one attack a round, but that's potentially one citizen each round going into the gullet of this black shadow to be slowly digested over the course of the movie (+0.25) Available at nearly every CR means the potential for lots of sequels (+0.25).

Ma'enloth 10.75 -> 11.25

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Short backstory. Sounds like we're abusing death? Looks like I'm going to have to check, like, a billion templates here. Wait - colossal with 56 hit points? Are you missing a digit or two? 450HP per full attack, you mind if I check your work? Well I'm going to check your work.

Originality: 5 Wow, there's a lot going on here. I can't say I was expecting , frankly, any of this monstrosity (in a good way) of a creature. Leopard into arachnoid effigy. Taking the arachnoid effigy, continuously casting greater humanoid essence in order to apply the drider template to an already arachnoidish creature? Instagib and come back as a petitioner. Let's just give you a 5.0 and move along.

Elegance: 2.25 A few challenges here. You got fancy here. Too fancy. I think. Ma'enloth can only take the Improved Natural Attack feat once. Note the wording of that feat against Improved Natural Armor -> "Special: A creature can gain this feat multiple times." Improved Natural Attack lacks this wording (-0.25). The Acidborn template requires the base creature to have the (aquatic) subtype. Aquatic adaptation allows Ma'enloth to hold their breath, not be fully aquatic. Does not meet pre-requisite (-0.25). There's ... some very weird interactions with nonabilities. I'm going to discuss INT here. The arachnoid template subtracts 4 INT from your base of 2 to get -2 (It says to treat 0 and below as - or mindless). Not 0, it is a null score, a non-ability. Effigy doesn't change INT. I carefully read through all the humanoid essence line of spells, none of them award an INT score. Drider doesn't award an INT score. Now you get to petitioner. You claim that Ma'enloth is an exceptional petitioner. The text for petitioners states that "In general, petitioners who become divine servants are creatures that originally had at least 1 Intelligence and 1 Wisdom." You have no intelligence score, which makes me squint. It's legal though. But I don't think you can claim that you are exceptional when you don't normally qualify at all (-0.25). Also, you cited as source MotP, when it was reprinted in Deities and Demigods and is also in the SRD. Please use the most recent version which would be the SRD (-0.25).

Power and Competence: 1 We need to return to the INT score thing because it's going to hurt you here too. "Mindless creatures do not gain feats or skills, although they may have bonus feats or racial skill bonuses." The Arachnoid template, where you first become mindless, doesn't have a line about retaining feats if you become mindless (unlike Effigy, which allows it). The default rule is to lose all feats and skill ranks, and this is going to cost you in power (-0.5). Good peak AC (+0.5). Decent SR (+0.25). Good DR / Regen (+0.25). Decent Attacks (+0.25) (remember you lost feats, so not as good as you recorded). The HP Pool is extremely poor for a Kaiju (-1). One last thing, but it's a doozy. You lose your CON score with effigy. Jumping through all the hoops above doesn't restore it at any point. Doesn't matter much because you're dying anyway and becoming a petitioner. Corrupted by the Abyss changes type to Aberration, and Paragon keeps Aberration. The problem is that neither template gives you a CON score. Let's check the SRD on non-abilities. "Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism." Aberrations eat, sleep, and breath, so that rules out the no metabolism part. Corrupted by the Abyss requires a corporeal creature (i.e. one with a body), so you don't have the (incorporeal) subtype. That leaves one alternative: they are not a living creature but a dead one. It appears that as soon as Ma'enloth becomes an Aberration, they die because they have no CON score (-2). Minimum = 1.

Memorable Villainy: 3 Colossal in form (+0.25). Element: Unknown/None (-0.25) Looks like you went for acid. No extra points, but removing penalty. No energy substitutions included (+0.25). Alignment: You recorded alignment as CE. Mindless creatures like vermin are N. Either would be acceptable, but due to the conflict I will neither penalize nor reward. After the analysis, this seems like more flash than bang. Setting aside the dead thing, if you were alive, I think the warlock is one-shotting you (-0.5).

The Tower of Angarngi 12 -> 12.25

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You're a tower. This is going to be interesting. Do I have to read your book recommendation before I judge? I'll take it under consideration. -- I considered it and decided to pass for now. Is there a rule that the villain needs to be an actual creature? ** Checks OP ** Well I guess it's technically a creature anyway.

So this one is tough to judge. I'll do my best, but know that as a non-standard creature I had to use a very different rubric to an extent.

Originality: 5 I can only judge originality from within the context of this round. Within this context I will agree that your submission is quite original. Someone else submitted an animated object, but only after heavily templated. You submit a CR 10 colossal animated object as a building, not to be destroyed, per se, but to be conquered. Unorthodox thinking and breaking paradigms should be rewarded in the appropriate locations, so take a 5.

Elegance: 2 Dude, like statting out traps is hard. I'm on page 74-75 of the DMG for this. Base CR for a magic trap is CR 1. +6 for the spell level of Symbol of Fear. Search 31 is +2. Disable Device 31 is +2. CR is currently 11. Then there are two dependent traps (crushing wall, blade barrier), contingent on the 1st trap being triggered. I'll handle those last. (By the way, I checked on a "intelligent magic weapon" with the specs you provided, it works out to be approximately 160,000 gp, or equivalent of a +9 item. That works out to a 20th level treasure per MIC. I don't know how this affects CR, but there it is.) And then if you bypass the first trap, another trap triggers. I'm going to call that an independant trap and calculate again. Magic Trap is base of 1. Blade Barrier is a +6 for the spell level. I won't add +5 for Slay living, call it an ad-hoc +1. Search 31 is +2. Disable 31 is +2. Shaking tower is another +1 ad hoc. Call it CR 13. Per page 49 of the DMG, 13 + 11 = 14. That's D&D math in a nutshell. Earthquake is a level 8 spell as well. Not sure how this factors in. Anyway, I think your CRs are off on your traps. Maybe with all the effects combined we can call the combined effect of entering the tower CR 16? It's hard to tell. A little cleaner design implementation for how you came up with your CRs would have been extremely helpful. I'm deducting a point from elegance, and calling this a 2.

Power and Competence: 2 Even at CR 16, which is a little higher than your suggested CRs, I don't think that traps are going to slow down a dedicated group of Tomb Raiders. DC 20 saving throws are certainly achievable without going overboard on optimization. A couple divinations should reveal the secrets of the tower before they enter - I didn't see any anti-scrying or the like built into the program here. Without other occupants of the tower, traps will eat up gameplay time in a session but not otherwise provide a serious threat to a party of adventurers. I'm eyeballing this at a 2 as well.

Memorable Villainy: 3.25 Colossal in form (+0.25). Element: Unknown/None (-0.25) Stone creature. No penalty. No energy substitutions included (+0.25). Alignment: Neutral Evil (+0.25). This is more like a single camera horror movie than a Kaiju movie. I'm thinking more Blair Witch, less Pacific Rim. If that's the effect you're going for then you achieved it, but I think your intent conflicts with the intent of this round (-0.5).

Irralisk 12.5 -> 12.75

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So, there's this. Starting at CR 66 and going from there. Oh, um, you're going higher. Is this like rolling over or divide by zero or something? Oh template cheese there we go. Do you keep all those feats? You realize I need to check them all? -- I'm so glad I have a week off from work or this would take a month.

Originality: 2.5 Vile Feats: I don't think it should be automatically assumed that every VC should feature service to an Elder Evil in exchance for feats (-0.5). So I know I expected to see at least 1 very high CR creature get cheesed down in CR via templates (-1). But I can't say I expected it to be the prismatic dragon (+0.5). Broodspawn was a nice find (+0.25). No ToB or MoI gets a small boost here (+0.25).

Elegance: 1 OK, you're a half-prismatic dragon, and the other half is ALSO prismatic dragon? That's ... just a whole prismatic dragon. I'm not actually going to penalize you for this here, although it did make me squint. You took feat blinding speed without meeting the pre-requisite (needs Dex 25, you have 10) (-0.25). Draconic Aura feat is in Dragon Magic, not PHB2 as you mentioned twice? (-0.25). Extended Reach requires a "tentacle, feeler, or pseudopod," (-0.25). You took feat blinding speed a second time, still without meeting the pre-requisite (needs Dex 25, you have 10) (-0.25). Vile Feats: Without laying out your skill ranks it is impossible to know if you "know of" the Elder Evil's existence (-0.25). Elder Evils lays out the possible bonus feats for service to an Elder Evil on page 11. The following feats do not appear on the table: Vile Deathstrike, Epic Evil Brand, Deformity (Skin) (-0.75). You didn't list the source for Shadowbound template (-0.25). Minimum score: 1.

Power and Competence: 5 I mentioned half dragon made me squint. You took it to get an extra breath weapon. But it's going to cost you here. Half-dragon's speed overwrites the base creature. It gets a fly speed of twice it's land speed. You have flight 120', not 350 (-0.25). (Also, Broodspawn makes you lose the "special actions" of the base creature including in your case two breath weapons, giving you a single breath weapon once a day in exchange, so it was a legal but sub-optimal move here). Good natural flight (+0.5). Good peak AC (+0.5). Decent SR (+0.25). Decent Attacks (+0.25). Tremendous HP Pool (+1). Exceeds 5. Maximum score.

Memorable Villainy: 4.25 Colossal in form (+0.25). Element: Maybe Ice? It's not listed as one of the 4 anyway (-0.25) Changed to no penalty on 8/3/2021. No energy substitutions included (+0.25). Alignment: Don't actually list alignment that I could see (-0.25). So I'd say this is a proper Kaiju. Huge heap of hit points, basically going around, doing it's thing, ignoring mortals. There's a weakness of course, and if I were a sorcerer even if I didn't have a high enough knowledge roll to properly identify this thing, it looks pretty much like a dragon, so I'd do a thing against dragons like Assay Spell Resistance + Maximize ocular spell shivering touch to take it down. Researching this weakness would of course be a big part of the movie, you could have a couple scientists working and sneak in a little romance and love interest or something. I would totally watch this movie (+1).

Xokhtohm 15.5 -> 15.75

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I keep reading this name as "Stockholm," I'm going to call you that in my head. Oh - a beholder! Hive Mother! Another entry going over 20 before resetting. Disembodied, interesting. That's ... a lot of charisma feats.

Originality: 3.75 As with Irralisk, I expected to see at least 1 high-CR creature get cheesed down in CR via templates (-1). But a beholder is a fine choice, a classic D&D foe (+0.5). Really didn't expect disembodied spirit, what with the no standard action thing and being caught in walls of force (+1). No ToB or MoI gets a small boost here (+0.25).

Elegance: 3 I added up your skill ranks at CR 16, looks like you treated all 3 knowledge skills as in-class, however, you only get 2 (-0.25). You are missing alertness and recorded the last feat at 20 HD instead of 21, and on the table you take quicken SLA for an ability you don't have until the next row (no penalty). At CR 21 you took 2 feats, but you only get a single feat at the 27th hit die (-0.25). CR 25 should have 1 feat, CR 26 should have 2 (2nd sloppy table entry gets a -0.25 penalty). At CR 27 you took 2 feats, but you only get a single feat at the 51st hit die (-0.25). Overall wasn't challenging to understand, most everything that I needed to check was obvious (+0.5). Master of the Unseen Hand when you're incorporeal is a nice touch (+0.5).

Power and Competence: 4.5 Good peak AC (+0.5). Natural flight (+0.25). No DR / Regen (-0.25). Good sized pool of HP + you have self-healing (+0.5). I was pretty sure no one would go disembodied, but you found a way to make it work, by simply having every action be free or swift. Master of the Unseen Hand adds some utility to telekinesis, but by my reading you can either use Sustain Force as a move action or use the violent thrust as a free action. Concentration is tough when you don't have a standard. No full attacks with your telekinesis'd weapon, but you have other options (like eye rays) (+0.5).

Memorable Villainy: 4.5 Colossal in form (+0.25). Element: Lightning - not one of the fundamental elements (-0.25) Changed to no penalty on 8/3/2021. No energy substitutions included (+0.25). Alignment: Chaotic Evil (+0.25). So there's no "attacks" per round, but you're shooting laser beams of irresistable spells with a high enough DC only a nat 20 is saving the victim. I imagine Xokhtohm going around dungeons, looking for and interrogating dwarves before killing them. The lack of physical violence hurts with the mental image of a Kaiju. Seems more like a horror movie with an invisible stalker? But honestly there's still a log going on here in your favor (+0.5). And with rejuvenate and a tricky death scenario, sounds like there might be sequels (+0.25).

Megalon 17.25

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With a name like Megalon, is this a shark? Nope! Incarnate Construct Entomanothrope got it. With apparently 120 hit dice or something. Nice analogy to the hurricane. Nice template abuse. Ooh- adaptation notes, useful.

Originality: 4 Ahh, the sweet RAW CR cheese of Lycanthropes and Entomanothropes. I was expecting this (-0.5). But either I was the only one or everyone else Vizzini'd themselves out of it (+0.5). Colossal Animated Object Incarnate Construct. Probably the first thing in people's heads and so the last thing anyone did. But you realized that the two fit together like a hand in a glove, so I call it beautiful and original (+1).

Elegance: 3.5 So grabbing as many hit dice as you did means you put yourself at risk in feat selection. But you didn't do too badly despite that. Dragonfire Adept's breath weapon is used "at will," and the time between breaths is not expressed in rounds. Thus you do not qualify for Enlarge Breath [Metabreath] (-0.25) nor Maximize Breath [Metabreath] (-0.25). The Cleave feat requires Power Attack, and yet you selected Cleave before PA (-0.25). Also, I'm not going to ding you for this, but ... hilariously, Devastation Beetle doesn't qualify for Entomanothrope. Don't believe me? Check the Update Booklet for 3.5. Now look at page 11. I'll wait. Devastation Beetles get their type changed to Dragon (Fire)! And no, the Errata doesn't fix that either! It's an obvious typo where the table got messed up so no penalty. Just thought I should point that out. This is the level of detail I bring you as a judge. Are you not amused? Anyway, as I was saying, This is simple and elegant, made it very easy to check everything (+0.75). Fist of the Forest blends well with your (un)natural CON score (+0.5).

Power and Competence: 5 Great peak AC (+0.5). No flight (-0.25). Good DR and Fast Heal (+0.25). Tremendous HP Pool (+1). Great SR (+0.5). Great Attacks (+0.5). You have one weakness but I'll talked about it in memorableness. Not much else to say. Exceeds maximum score - 5.

Memorable Villainy: 4.75 Colossal in form (+0.25). Element: Fire (due to the tiny size of the breath weapon I award you no points, but also no penalty). No energy substitutions included (+0.25). Alignment: Chaotic Neutral (+0.25). So this is pretty much a classic Kaiju - enormous size, virtually unkillable. Between DR, fast healing, and thousands of hit points what to do? As you indicate, I'm feeling a two-parter. Part 1 is the rampage. Part 2 is the revenge of the mortals on the Kaiju. After seeing it battle for a while, they figure out it is an entomanothrope. They break out the spellcaster and cast break enchantment (SR No) spell. If Megalon rolls a natural 1 on the will save to remove the "curse", they cast Alter Fortune (No save, no SR) to force a reroll. You're going to be making that save every single time. Classic Achilles heel, but takes time to find the cure (+1).

Ixalli 12.5 -> 12.75

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Picture shows a dinosaur with a city on its back. I hope we get a dinosaur with a city on its back. Oh, awakened cheese. And you have a Wild Cohort T-Rex partner. Swordsage, ok.

Originality: 4 I can't believe no one else picked Dinosaur^TM! Aaaaaaand, if that wasn't enough, it's a dinosaur with a pet dino. It's Dinos all the way down! Take a +1.

Elegance: 1 So your ability score table correctly sussed out that you have to be fully grown before you can get awakened. Your CR table doesn't follow the same rule, which made things a challenge. In order to be a target of awaken you must be a legal creature. While the seismosaurus "virtually" grows from a single HD, I don't think you can awaken a baby seismosaurus by 3.5 RAW (young template is PF I believe). Magebred is inherited, Awaken is "acquired" - not actually a template even, but because someone has to cast a spell that's the only way I can see applying it. So I don't see how you are taking Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Knockdown, and Great Throw (all of which require INT 13) legally (-1). You also seem to have 13 feats in your first row when you should only have 12 (-0.25). Your skill ranks reflect having INT 18 through all hit dice, which isn't the case (-0.25). I checked all your swordsage maneuvers, you meet the pre-reqs for them as you aquire them - no issues. I'm going to have to insist on the 1st swordsage stance being 1st level though, as that is what is indicated in ToB (-0.25). I ... don't see how you are training your pet T-rex to take martial study for manuevers that you don't even have yourself. 22 Ranks in Handle animal is decent, but not really enough to invent brand new uses of the handle animal skill (-0.25).

Power and Competence: 3.25 Armor class is low with nothing really padding it (-0.5). No DR/Regen (-0.25). HP Pool I'll call average. No SR. Pretty good Attacks (+0.5). Manuevers and stances offer extra oomph (+0.25). Pet T-Rexes are awesome (+0.5).

Memorable Villainy: 4.5 Colossal in form (+0.25). Element: Earth and Fire? So you say, I really don't see it. I'm guessing you're training to claim it from your manuevers, but they're all over the map. If you had taken 100% stone dragon I might buy it (-0.25) In the spirit of my position on this evolving I'm removing the penalty, but not otherwise granting full points in this sub category. No energy substitutions included (+0.25). Alignment: Neutral (+0.25). So Dinosaurs are a classic for Kaijus. It fits the mental picture right away. We don't even have to try to imagine the movie, they're already out there. And there are two of themmmmmm..... I like it. Fits the bill, it's putting butts in seats and money in the bank (+0.75).

The Unnamed God 13.75 -> 14.25

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Never saw Zardoz. Are you going to make me watch it too? Nope, you gave a succinct summary instead. Thanks. And our first and apparently only Kaiju-templated Kaiju. **Downloading Dragon 289 **

Originality: 4 I know Vargouille! They're small little wing-a-ling floating heads. We got a Kaiju one? Awesome! (+0.5). And the only Kaiju-templated Kaiju. Vizzini was strong this round (+0.5). And I know that Kaiju are associated with cult-classic movies, but I don't think Zardoz is the one they usually associate (+0.25). Sad face for originality :(, the Kaiju template adaptation suggests using vargouille (-0.25).

Elegance: 2 So with a Kaiju-in-a-box I guess it is still unfortunately possible to have some elegance errors. The written Kaiju template requires Animal, Magical Beast, or Vermin. You're an outsider (-0.25). But, I'm sure you're getting your dispute ready right now - because of the adaptation - right? I'd be thinking it too. See here's the other thing, the "Kaiju Crazy" sidebar says, "When using the kaiju template on the creature types listed above, you should take these things into account and adjust the CR." In other words, interpretation is needed, there's no RAW rule. Eyeballing an animal Kaiju, +40 hit dice is +15 CR. Or basically 13 CR of hit dice with an ad-hoc of +2. If we did the same with outsider hit dice for a vargouille Kaiju, that works out to +20 CR of hit dice with an ad hoc of +2. You get a penalty for not considering the ramifications of this (-0.25) which is included in the penalty for exceeding the CR mentioned below. From the template: Feats: A kaiju retains any of the bonus feats possessed by the base creature and has an additional feat plus one per every 4 Hit Dice above 32." At 41 hit dice you have earned 2 feats by the template. You took 3 (-0.25). The Kaiju template says, "Skills: A kaiju possesses 1 skill point per Hit Die." The Crazy! sidebar mentions adjusting BAB and saves, it doesn't mention skills. You have too many ranks assigned (-0.25). Half-Elemental Template requires INT 4, you have INT 2 (-0.25). This is simple to read, easy to check everything (+0.5). If you factor in what I believe to be a more accurate CR for the (modified) Kaiju template, you have exceeded the CR target of 20 by 6 (-0.75).

Power and Competence: 3.75 Armor class is kinda low (-0.25). Decent DR (+0.25). HP Pool I'll call average above average (+0.25). Pretty good Attacks (+0.25). Acceptable SR (+0.25).

Memorable Villainy: 4.5 Colossal in form (+0.25). Element: Earth (+0.25). No energy substitutions included (+0.25). Alignment: Evil. Not sure what brand, but you have the subtype so I'll give you credit (+0.25). So Zardoz is notoriously bad, and you are making the sequel here in villain form. That's ... evil. Flying giant screaming head is pretty epic for a Kaiju though. I think this is a decent presentation (+0.5).

Kekikike 12.5

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Another whale with wings. Sounds Hawaiian? Hmm, son of a half-dragon. How are you getting smart - I don't think Dragontouched does it? Wings? You'll forgive me but I'll check.

Originality: 2.75 Whales were popular (-0.75). Wings - meh. Bard?? OK, I'm curious, consider me hooked (+0.5).

Elegance: 2.5 Shock Trooper requires Improved Bull Rush (-0.25). If you look at page 58-59 of the PHB, you see that you pick feats (Step 7) before you pick Class features (step 9). As you have no maneuvers at this point, you do not meet the pre-requisites (-0.25). You have insufficient ranks in Perform to meet the pre-req of Song of the Heart (-0.25). The implied order in which you listed your maneuvers indicates you will have IL 12 for CR 15, or insufficient to take Diamond Defence (-0.25). The rest of the Maneuvers I have no issue with. This was simple to read, easy to check everything (+0.5).

Power and Competence: 3 Without a stat block I'll admit I'm just "winging it" here - get it? Armor class is low with nothing really padding it (-0.5). No DR/Regen (-0.25). NO SR to help you out. HP Pool I'll call average. Decent attacks (+0.25), and manuevers and stances offer extra oomph (+0.25). Flight = Yes (+0.25). Solid performance.

Memorable Villainy: 4.25 Colossal in form (+0.25). Element: Fire (+0.25). No energy substitutions included (+0.25). Alignment: Neutral Evil (+0.25). So a book burning Kaiju. That's definitely a story purpose. I guess we could incorporate that into the movie of the week. We could use it as a metaphor for something else that's evil and burning books. And then when the good guys win we can all feel good for watching this movie. (+0.25)

Edit: After interpreting disputes parts 1 of X. Includes Irralisk, Xokhtohm, Megalon, and a not-yet-read dispute from Zardoz but change anyway after mulling for a week.

Edit 2: After round 2 of disputes. Angarngi, Zardoz, Wrath of the Bittersea

Edit 3: After round 3 of 3 for disputes. Tarrasque-er, The Wind that Wends, Ma'enloth. Final decision on Xokhtohm.

[loky1109]

I now in the forest. I'll send my disputes, when come home, approximately sunday.

[Khedrac]

Alright team, a few things to get out of the way before reavealing the judgement. Several of my books and references got used heavily in this. (41 total books measured 25-3/4 inches when stacked!) I paid particular attention to Monster Manual 3.5, p 290-294 (Also, 295-302, but less so, as that is about making a brand new monster from scratch). Savage Species p6-8, Basics of Monster Characters, was essentially permanently open except when I had to flip elsewhere in the book. P11 (Skill Points and Feats) was also important. Special Callout to Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook which should be required reading for this competition (and probably for GreatWyrmGold's Monstrous Adventure Competition as well).

May I say that as a lurker to this competition I am incredibly impressed by the way you have presented your judgements. You seem to have gone into excruciating detail checking the entries, even going to the length of buying a copy of a dragon issue to check the template details! Your judgements are also clear and well written, with plenty of details for people who want to check the judgement.

Awesome, just awesome.

[mattie_p]

May I say that as a lurker to this competition I am incredibly impressed by the way you have presented your judgements. You seem to have gone into excruciating detail checking the entries, even going to the length of buying a copy of a dragon issue to check the template details! Your judgements are also clear and well written, with plenty of details for people who want to check the judgement.

Awesome, just awesome.

Thank you kindly. I tried to make the judgments enjoyable to read, and I do believe that I "showed my work." Buying the mag isn't all that impressive, just $5 for the pdf, but worth it in my opinion. I'll read the rest of the issue at some point and recoup my investment that way.

I now in the forest. I'll send my disputes, when come home, approximately sunday.

Disputes are, of course, permitted by the rules of the competition. Any judgment, no matter how well documented, is inherently subjective.

That said, I am disappointed that no individual submission made any effort to make my job easier by citing page numbers within the rule books. I will insist that if you have a dispute of my interpretation of the RAW, you cite book and page in your dispute, or hyperlink the appropriate WotC article.

[ciopo]

That said, I am disappointed that no individual submission made any effort to make my job easier by citing page numbers within the rule books. I will insist that if you have a dispute of my interpretation of the RAW, you cite book and page in your dispute, or hyperlink the appropriate WotC article.

Speaking for just myself : I would had cited page numbers if I knew that before I submitted, or even before the reveal, since I did send revisions to Jdizzlean and one more revision to add page numbers would be fair. I know I thought "damn, I wish I knew that" when I read your judge criterias on page 3, but that ship had sailed by then :P

for my own judging criteria, just the book is enough, and so that's all I've put in my entries.

[mattie_p]

I ended up not penalizing lack of page numbers. I did penalize incorrectly cited sources or lack of citation.

However, specifically for disputes, I think I'm within my rights to insist that any discussion of the RAW include a detailed reference.

[Lionheart]

Thanks also from me for the comprehensive judging!
Don't think I have any disputes, just wish I'd been as thorough putting my build together as you were judging!

[JyP]

Thanks a lot for judging mattie_p!

You have put a lot of effort in it, I am impressed and somewhat intimidated - let me echo Lionheart here, I just wish I'd been as thorough putting my build together as you were judging!

[mattie_p]

So I always try to be thorough, both for my enjoyment (and I throughly enjoyed the process of judging) but also to give each competitor their due.

Everyone who judges has their own style. I mean no disrespect here to anyone else who judges anything, but my method is to try to dive at least as deep into the character as the cook did. I usually learn something new, and I hope every competitor learns something from the experience, even if I am critical about components of their final product.

[AvatarVecna]

One joke build I was considering was an Assassin Vine that only has HD upgrades. It would be intentionally core only and absolute garbage, just as Wizards of the Coast intended.