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  1. - Top - End - #301
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Things in RPGs that you used to like but don’t anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Agreed, but… aren't there systems that do this? I though 5e was already one of them…
    4e kinda did it, but there's a limit to how much of it you want. It's good for all characters to have access to utility, but it's also good for different characters to have access to different utility. If there's just a big pile of utility magic you can do (perhaps with a feat or something to make it more efficient), it's very easy to end up in a situation where there's simply a correct solution to each kind of problem, or where character identity doesn't matter for certain kinds of problems. It should matter if your party's spellcaster is a Necromancer or a Warlock or an Illusionist or a Shaman even outside combat.

    now, here I think that I disagree. There's a time for dice, and there's plans that remove the need for dice or skill. If we flood the villain's base with lava, or blow up their space base, or similar, there's usually not much need to roll whether we completely overkilled them *right* or not.

    IMO, the issue is with a) skills that try to take the place of role-playing / player skills / planning / the strategic layer, and b) ignoring that *most* plans only change *what* you roll, or minimize *how many* rolls you need to make, or even change your fail (or success) conditions (or results), rather than actually removing all rolls entirely.
    It's certainly not absolute in either direction. But too much "that sounds cool, let's make it work" can overshadow what players want their characters to do. If you built a character that has a bunch of social skills because your fantasy is of getting to persuade and manipulate people even though you aren't personally very good at that (or very good at doing it in a way your DM buys), your character can end up overshadowed by someone else who simply happens to be on the same page with the DM for social encounters. What it comes down to is that different people want different things out of a game. Some people want to use specific abilities to solve tactical problems (for a very broad definition of "tactical" that can include things like "rediscover the Tomb of the Crimson Imperators" or "convince the Duke to reinforce the pass against the invading Ettins"). Some people want to combine their abilities in clever ways, but with the emphasis on cleverness rather than strict rules compliance. Some people want something largely freeform. And some people want different things in different parts of the game. It is very common, for example, to expect much more flexibility in the social minigame than other non-combat minigames.

  2. - Top - End - #302
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Things in RPGs that you used to like but don’t anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomPeasant View Post
    I think to some degree [water breathing mermaid is] inevitable. If you let people pick up bonuses to an action, having those bonuses will either make that action overpowered, or be necessary for it to be worthwhile. The best you can do, I think, is have the bonuses apply mostly to the outcome of the action, so that players still have the option if it really is tactically ideal.
    I think the best case - although it requires a very exact balance - is that you can improve the ability in a way it becomes less situational, while still being viable in some but not all cases before and after the upgrade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    "Oh, you're doing this trope."
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  3. - Top - End - #303
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Things in RPGs that you used to like but don’t anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Cluedrew View Post
    I think the best case - although it requires a very exact balance - is that you can improve the ability in a way it becomes less situational, while still being viable in some but not all cases before and after the upgrade.
    That can work. It's also worth noting that, as a campaign goes on and characters get new abilities, it matters less if the generic abilities that anyone can use are useful for them. If you're a 1st level Marshal and all you're getting from your character is an Inspiring Shout and a Motivating Aura, having Sunder and Bull Rush and Disarm and Trip and Attacks of Opportunity all be meaningful tactical options is important for you having enough to do. But when you're a 10th level Marshal and you have an Inspiring Shout and a Revitalizing Shout and a Demoralizing Shout and seven different Auras and the ability to grant people various actions and a couple of soldiers to push around, it's kind of okay that your Trip isn't really level-appropriate.

    You can see a non-D&D example of this in XCOM: Long War. Squaddies (starting soldiers) will typically carry all the range of utility items available to them, and will Overwatch because they don't have anything better to do. But as your soldiers rank up and get abilities that make them good at whatever they're supposed to do, they'll typically stop carrying as many Flashbangs and Frag Grenades (unless they specialize in that) and will only Overwatch if they're spec'd for it or there really is nothing else to do. As challenges get harder, you should be encouraged to do things you're good at, because that's how you show character growth.

  4. - Top - End - #304
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Things in RPGs that you used to like but don’t anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomPeasant View Post
    It's certainly not absolute in either direction. But too much "that sounds cool, let's make it work" can overshadow what players want their characters to do. If you built a character that has a bunch of social skills because your fantasy is of getting to persuade and manipulate people even though you aren't personally very good at that (or very good at doing it in a way your DM buys), your character can end up overshadowed by someone else who simply happens to be on the same page with the DM for social encounters. What it comes down to is that different people want different things out of a game. Some people want to use specific abilities to solve tactical problems (for a very broad definition of "tactical" that can include things like "rediscover the Tomb of the Crimson Imperators" or "convince the Duke to reinforce the pass against the invading Ettins"). Some people want to combine their abilities in clever ways, but with the emphasis on cleverness rather than strict rules compliance. Some people want something largely freeform. And some people want different things in different parts of the game. It is very common, for example, to expect much more flexibility in the social minigame than other non-combat minigames.
    Social is a… word… pill?

    If the evil princess just wants another Dragon, and is planning to kidnap one, she's not going to approve funding to help dragons protect their families, nor reject your tribute of a secondhand dragon egg, no matter what you roll. OTOH, when you want to use her personal ship to deal with the squid-faced pirate slavers plaguing the nation's shipping lanes, that's when good social skills are critical to your success.

    Just like, when you're throwing a Fireball at a Fire Elemental / iron Golem convention, or at a bee hive in dry grass, the save DC doesn't really matter. But against that Illithid riding a dinosaur? Yeah, the damage and save DC probably matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomPeasant View Post
    As challenges get harder, you should be encouraged to do things you're good at, because that's how you show character growth.
    That… feels wrong somehow.

  5. - Top - End - #305
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    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Default Re: Things in RPGs that you used to like but don’t anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    *Keeps reacting to and interacting with the character based on original assumptions.*
    Sounds just like how folks interact IRL.

  6. - Top - End - #306
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Things in RPGs that you used to like but don’t anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    If the evil princess just wants another Dragon, and is planning to kidnap one, she's not going to approve funding to help dragons protect their families, nor reject your tribute of a secondhand dragon egg, no matter what you roll.
    I'm not quite sure that's relevant. Certainly you can say "this is an outcome the social minigame cannot achieve, no matter what you do", but that's ignoring the social minigame (if selectively). You're still ignoring it whether what you're ignoring is "a circumstance bonus based on how persuasive the DM things your argument is" or "a single skill check" or "a series of related skill checks".

    That… feels wrong somehow.
    "Growth" was probably the wrong word. Something more like "progression". Basically, when someone is a hardcore badass, you expect them to fight by doing things they're good at. If you go to all the trouble of getting some awesome lightning powers only to continue going around shooting at people with a bow and arrow, why bother getting the lightning powers in the first place?

  7. - Top - End - #307
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    Default Re: Things in RPGs that you used to like but don’t anymore

    There are DMing procedures I don't like anymore. Given my reputation, I did like these during my infamous 2E days and are not contributive to my rants against tyrannical DMing. I have done these myself as DM. I don't anymore.

    Rolling for players.

    When the DM doesn't want the players to know Something Happened for reasons, the DM rolls their saving throw or perception check or whatever roll is needed and apply the results of the success or failure. This also includes an old idea of a player rolling a list of numbers before the game session the DM can then check off when a number is used. I've concluded this takes away player agency. Players can accept failure, but they need to be the one to have rolled the d20 at the moment it's needed. It's more important now for players to roll when it's needed, at least in 5E, because class features can affect dice rolls.

    Note passing.

    That Guy players instigate it too, but here the DM does it on purpose because only a player gets to know something like his character is secretly charmed. This also includes taking the player away from the table to talk privately. Unfortunately this is a hard habit for me to break, and I still do it once in awhile. The secretiveness itself makes other players suspicious, so I rather the players be trusted not to metagame when only one PC knows something that's important enough only he knows.

    Autocapture

    The PCs are surrounded by way too many soldiers or the police or even bad guys to be arrested and interrogated. It's meant as a plot point facilitator. What it is is a railroad. Players have no choice at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by OvisCaedo View Post
    Rules existing are a dire threat to the divine power of the DM.

  8. - Top - End - #308
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    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

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    Default Re: Things in RPGs that you used to like but don’t anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Autocapture

    The PCs are surrounded by way too many soldiers or the police or even bad guys to be arrested and interrogated. It's meant as a plot point facilitator. What it is is a railroad. Players have no choice at all.
    They do have a choice to yell out "Le parti muert, elle ne se rend pas" and go down swinging.
    Spoiler: reference
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    The Old Guard at Waterloo
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-07-16 at 11:12 AM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  9. - Top - End - #309
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    Pex's Avatar

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    Default Re: Things in RPGs that you used to like but don’t anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    They do have a choice to yell out "Le parti muert, elle ne se rend pas" and go down swinging.
    Spoiler: reference
    Show
    The Old Guard at Waterloo
    That's what triggered my dislike for it. I have a particular adventure arc where this must happen to move the plot along. The party has to be in jail to meet an important NPC. I've ran this arc several times, but the last time I did one player got really offended and was ready to die trying to escape. He did escape and met up with the party later, but that's when it hit me this is a bad idea. There's another story element to this arc I also now find dumb, so I don't run it anymore. I also won't use autocapture as a plot device anymore either. This doesn't mean the party can't be arrested or captured if their shenanigans warrant, of course. I just won't fiat it as a DM to get the party to do something.
    Quote Originally Posted by OvisCaedo View Post
    Rules existing are a dire threat to the divine power of the DM.

  10. - Top - End - #310
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    Max_Killjoy's Avatar

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    Default Re: Things in RPGs that you used to like but don’t anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    That's what triggered my dislike for it. I have a particular adventure arc where this must happen to move the plot along. The party has to be in jail to meet an important NPC. I've ran this arc several times, but the last time I did one player got really offended and was ready to die trying to escape. He did escape and met up with the party later, but that's when it hit me this is a bad idea. There's another story element to this arc I also now find dumb, so I don't run it anymore. I also won't use autocapture as a plot device anymore either. This doesn't mean the party can't be arrested or captured if their shenanigans warrant, of course. I just won't fiat it as a DM to get the party to do something.
    It's an example of two things:
    1) RPGs are not authorial fiction, and some things that "work" in authorial fiction that don't work in an RPG.
    2) Events forced by narrative causality... characters are going to be captured because The Plot demands it... even if it totally violates the capabilities and personalities of the characters, or anything else.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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  11. - Top - End - #311
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Things in RPGs that you used to like but don’t anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    That's what triggered my dislike for it. I have a particular adventure arc where this must happen to move the plot along. The party has to be in jail to meet an important NPC. I've ran this arc several times, but the last time I did one player got really offended and was ready to die trying to escape. He did escape and met up with the party later, but that's when it hit me this is a bad idea. There's another story element to this arc I also now find dumb, so I don't run it anymore. I also won't use autocapture as a plot device anymore either. This doesn't mean the party can't be arrested or captured if their shenanigans warrant, of course. I just won't fiat it as a DM to get the party to do something.
    If someone does this, it's best done as a "Ok, everyone is starting in jail. You committed a crime. Choose from this list of 20 crimes to be the one you were arrested for. Each one gives you a perk and a penalty permanent throughout the game."

    Make at least one that each alignment would commit, such as "refuse an unjust command from a noble" or "helped smuggle young lovers out of the city."

    It gives the players agency, a nifty rp boon and potential later plot hooks.

  12. - Top - End - #312
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Things in RPGs that you used to like but don’t anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    That's what triggered my dislike for it. I have a particular adventure arc where this must happen to move the plot along. The party has to be in jail to meet an important NPC. I've ran this arc several times, but the last time I did one player got really offended and was ready to die trying to escape. He did escape and met up with the party later, but that's when it hit me this is a bad idea. There's another story element to this arc I also now find dumb, so I don't run it anymore. I also won't use autocapture as a plot device anymore either. This doesn't mean the party can't be arrested or captured if their shenanigans warrant, of course. I just won't fiat it as a DM to get the party to do something.
    Much like the "Evil Overlord" list, I really ought to make a "player" list, that includes things like, "I will visit every jail, and talk to every prisoner. This way, if truly the only being in the universe who knows a particular piece of information that the GM wants the party to have happens to be in prison, the uncreative GM will feel no need to railroad the party's capture as 'the only way' for the party to learn this information, and the campaign to continue. (as opposed to having him tell someone else who tells the party, or he dies and his ghost tells the party (possibly after the party is hired to investigate / deal with…), or the god of Agency detects the sinister plan of the evil god of railroads, and sends agents to thwart the plan, possibly making the party curious about the prison, or Divinations or mind reading or Speak with Dead or…)".

    Now I really want to run that game, where the PCs are all agents of the god of Agency, sent to thwart the various classic railroads in various classic modules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    If someone does this, it's best done as a "Ok, everyone is starting in jail. You committed a crime. Choose from this list of 20 crimes to be the one you were arrested for. Each one gives you a perk and a penalty permanent throughout the game."

    Make at least one that each alignment would commit, such as "refuse an unjust command from a noble" or "helped smuggle young lovers out of the city."

    It gives the players agency, a nifty rp boon and potential later plot hooks.
    Alignment is not a synonym for personality. Expect that I would respond with, "none of those fit - how about…” ± something appropriate for the character, like "I murdered the magistrate, who was secretly a werewolf / possessed by a demon… but not before foolishly promising their family to handle it quietly / not to reveal their condition" or "as an immortal / near immortal, I've been here so long, no one remembers why I'm here (war crimes - possibly committed against a previous government)" or "got two different nobles' daughter's pregnant" or "was officially declared 'a disturber of the peace' after an incident with a Dragon-shaped firework".

  13. - Top - End - #313
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Things in RPGs that you used to like but don’t anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    If someone does this, it's best done as a "Ok, everyone is starting in jail. You committed a crime. Choose from this list of 20 crimes to be the one you were arrested for. Each one gives you a perk and a penalty permanent throughout the game."

    Make at least one that each alignment would commit, such as "refuse an unjust command from a noble" or "helped smuggle young lovers out of the city."

    It gives the players agency, a nifty rp boon and potential later plot hooks.
    If you can, doing this during session 0 gives the GM time to allow for customization if the list of 20 is not long enough.

    I like the idea of having a penalty and perk tied to the crime. Mechanics resulting from RP choices are nice. Having a perk tied to the forced choice helps accept the forced choice*.

    *Also mentioning the situation during session 0 helps the players contextualize the forced choice as part of the campaign premise rather than as railroading.

    If a GM were doing this mid campaign, they could insert a mini 5m-15m session 0 before this new segement.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2021-07-18 at 11:59 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #314
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Things in RPGs that you used to like but don’t anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Much like the "Evil Overlord" list, I really ought to make a "player" list, that includes things like, "I will visit every jail, and talk to every prisoner. This way, if truly the only being in the universe who knows a particular piece of information that the GM wants the party to have happens to be in prison, the uncreative GM will feel no need to railroad the party's capture as 'the only way' for the party to learn this information, and the campaign to continue. (as opposed to having him tell someone else who tells the party, or he dies and his ghost tells the party (possibly after the party is hired to investigate / deal with…), or the god of Agency detects the sinister plan of the evil god of railroads, and sends agents to thwart the plan, possibly making the party curious about the prison, or Divinations or mind reading or Speak with Dead or…)".

    Now I really want to run that game, where the PCs are all agents of the god of Agency, sent to thwart the various classic railroads in various classic modules.



    Alignment is not a synonym for personality. Expect that I would respond with, "none of those fit - how about…” ± something appropriate for the character, like "I murdered the magistrate, who was secretly a werewolf / possessed by a demon… but not before foolishly promising their family to handle it quietly / not to reveal their condition" or "as an immortal / near immortal, I've been here so long, no one remembers why I'm here (war crimes - possibly committed against a previous government)" or "got two different nobles' daughter's pregnant" or "was officially declared 'a disturber of the peace' after an incident with a Dragon-shaped firework".
    There's always that one guy...

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    If you can, doing this during session 0 gives the GM time to allow for customization if the list of 20 is not long enough.

    I like the idea of having a penalty and perk tied to the crime. Mechanics resulting from RP choices are nice. Having a perk tied to the forced choice helps accept the forced choice*.

    *Also mentioning the situation during session 0 helps the players contextualize the forced choice as part of the campaign premise rather than as railroading.

    If a GM were doing this mid campaign, they could insert a mini 5m-15m session 0 before this new segement.
    Exactly what I was thinking. It helps the pcs accept the "starting off in jail" trope while giving them some agency as to why they are there. Even give them multiple methods for getting out as a group.

    Or hell, run a true dungeon campaign where your group becomes king of the cell blocks. I can see a lot of ways this could be run well.

  15. - Top - End - #315
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Things in RPGs that you used to like but don’t anymore

    Also if you're gonna start people off in jail, and their starting gear isn't going to be accessible, tell them up front so they don't waste time figuring out what they want.
    "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"

  16. - Top - End - #316
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    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

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    Default Re: Things in RPGs that you used to like but don’t anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Now I really want to run that game, where the PCs are all agents of the god of Agency, sent to thwart the various classic railroads in various classic modules.
    Sounds like metagaming, in the literal sense of the word, but it could be fun with the right group.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Alignment is not a synonym for personality.
    QFT.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

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