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    Default Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    It seemed like space adventure outside of "Star Wars" and "Star Trek" had a really hard time in the 2010s. The Expanse had to fight for it's life. J Michael Straczynski was working on an adaption of Kim Stanley Robinson's "Mars Trilogy" but the studio he was working with was shuttered.

    https://twitter.com/straczynski/stat...12320427220993

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    I was excited to see an adaption of Iain M. Banks Culture series
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    but that went belly up as well.
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    Could a space sci fi show have become mainstream in the 2010s if it was of Game of Thrones or even "The Walking Dead" quality and on a mainstream network or would superheroes, zombies, and Game of Thrones be too strong of a cultural force for one to become successful? Has society in the 2010s stopped dreaming of a better future? Did space lose it's sense of wonder?

    Could a space adventure be exciting without aliens and laser guns?
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-06-06 at 08:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Gravity, Interstellar and the Martian all came out around the same time and were pretty solid successes if I remember correctly.

    The Guardians of the Galaxy movies were of course a massive, and largely unexpected, success.

    Admittedly the Orville, Killjoys and Dark Matter are most of what's coming to mind for TV outside of the Expanse, but I feel like I'm forgetting a few.

    Video games had a few successes in the 2010's, but with your username, I'm sure you're aware of that

    I don't think the 2010's were that much worse than other decades, though I admit a fondness for the 90's due to TNG, DS9 and B5. Projects are optioned and fail all the time unfortunately.

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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Once again I am not sure if CmdrShep2183 is human or a bot, but I still like their threads anyway

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    Space has to be "fun" or some other atypical everyday emotion such as "horror." Make it banal, make it ordinary and it loses its fun.

    I will argue that these things go in cycles, like the nostalgia cycle but there are also other inputs besides the 20 to 30 year nostalgia cycle. To do a good space show in 2020s you have to figure out some form of idea that has not been done before, or have a really good script for the pilot / first season and land each gymnastic routine you attempt. A successful gymnastic routine earns applause a faltered routine causes glances and grimaces where people have sympathetic cringe at the mistakes.

    Since lots of good sci-fi was the 90s and to some extent the 00s it is probably a good "fallow" time to launch a space property but you have to know how to land it for wasting your shot and okaying bad shows will actually delay someone okaying a good show even though we are talking 530+ US Scripted Shows as of 2019 (2020 and 2021 are kind of outliers due to obvious reasons.)
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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Still waiting on a Mass Effect world tv series.
    Could be set during Krogan war or just normal mercenary series.

    Really, I think it is the required special effects and setting pieces need that are an issue (these can cost money)
    Star Trek used silly things like small models on strings because they used it from a far away shot you didn't notice. Plus, no one expected as much back then.

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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    {Scrubbed}
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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    The answer to this question is actually very simple: money.

    Space-based science fiction, in live action, is expensive. It just is. Animation, print media, video games, take your pick, and space jumps up in popularity. Likewise, science fiction not set in space, such as dystopian or post-apocalyptic science fiction, is quite common on TV, because it's much cheaper to make.

    Studios know this, of course, since it's been well established by now that even critically and popularly beloved shows set in space struggle to turn a profit, and so they are less likely to greenlight such productions. There are exceptions, of course, Apple has giant piles of money and they're bringing Foundation to TV while filming in Malta of all places.

    The most likely way to see a proliferation of space-based science fiction is some cost-saving invention. The digital screen technology used to make The Mandalorian, once it proliferates across the industry, might do it.
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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
    Hehehhe

    That's not entirely false I suppose. What were the big 2000s space sci fi shows and movies, compared to the 2010s?

    I suppose Battlestar Galactica had to be on the list. As much as some people disliked how it turned out, it was BIG
    Last edited by truemane; 2021-06-07 at 08:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Hehehhe

    That's not entirely false I suppose. What were the big 2000s space sci fi shows and movies, compared to the 2010s?

    I suppose Battlestar Galactica had to be on the list. As much as some people disliked how it turned out, it was BIG
    Firefly, Farscape, BSG which you mentioned, Enterprise, 1 season of Voyager, 6.5 seasons of Stargate, all 5 seasons of Stargate Atlantis, Andromeda, and probably half a dozen things I forgot or have never seen.
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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Once again I am not sure if CmdrShep2183 is human or a bot, but I still like their threads anyway
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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Firefly, Farscape, BSG which you mentioned, Enterprise, 1 season of Voyager, 6.5 seasons of Stargate, all 5 seasons of Stargate Atlantis, Andromeda, and probably half a dozen things I forgot or have never seen.
    Wikipedia suggests that's actually most of it. The 2010s aren't that different by volume, really. I do think there were fewer seasons overall though, because the 2010 shows tended to be less successful (Stargate Universe, for example, failed pretty hard compared to its predecessors, and Stargate hasn't really rallied since).

    There was actually significantly more 'sci-fi' in the 2010s compared to the 2000s by Wikipedia's count: 161 to 111 shows, it's just that fewer were live action shows set in space. But that's always been a small portion of the overall sci-fi marketplace. Maybe a dozen space shows get produced each decade in the US, and probably half of them fail after one or two seasons, and even shows people like struggle to keep afloat.
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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Firefly, Farscape, BSG which you mentioned, Enterprise, 1 season of Voyager, 6.5 seasons of Stargate, all 5 seasons of Stargate Atlantis, Andromeda, and probably half a dozen things I forgot or have never seen.
    Dune, I suppose, if you want to call that a series. I thought that one was actually pretty decent. Star Wars: Clone Wars (and half of Star Wars: THE Clone Wars). The Doctor Who revival.
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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Why were some shows canceled/struggled to get funded?

    Well, that's the normal state of tv shows and films. Any project so immensely expensive is going to struggle to find funding unless it's following enough of a track record to be nearly a sure thing.

    And thus we have endless sequels, prequels, reimaginings and reboots.

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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Why were some shows canceled/struggled to get funded?

    Well, that's the normal state of tv shows and films. Any project so immensely expensive is going to struggle to find funding unless it's following enough of a track record to be nearly a sure thing.

    And thus we have endless sequels, prequels, reimaginings and reboots.
    And space/sci fi shows have such a large budget requirement..

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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    And a lot of that budget cost is upfront as well. Sets are expensive to make, that's why lots of SF shows get first-season-itis, because all the money goes on sets, costuming, and props. But they stick around for future seasons so the rest of the budget goes further.

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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    And space/sci fi shows have such a large budget requirement..
    It's not just the large budget, but in most cases the audience (especially the non-hard-code fans) are demanding as to the quality of the special effects (which also age really fast) and that means the effects can very easily eat the budget leaving far less money for good writing.

    Another problem for SciFi si that taste differ wildly - some like space opera, others like hard scifi (and then real world science can far too easily contain tricks the fans will know but the authors not so what is assumed to be very hard is known to be quite easy).

    All is all, making a good "sci-fi" series is very hard as well as expensive - so why risk the money?

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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    There wasn't exactly a huge amount of public interest in space, was there? The Shuttle was retired and Musk was having difficulty getting his SpaceX first stages to stick the landing. Once we go back to the Moon and then head to Mars, you might be a considerable pick-up in interest.
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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    A bunch of reasons.

    We have a major market niche effect. With lots and lots shows being made but with few really able to attract very large audiences. This limits the amount any one show is LIKELY to earn (sure there will be blockbusters but that can't really be relied on for any given show) and thus the budget that can be allocated.

    We also have audience expectations. People's idea of what they expect effects wise currently is rather set by movies and miniseries IMO. And that level of special effects is expensive and time consuming. If the level of special effects that the audience expects is not met then the likelihood the show succeeds is rather low. Which when combined with the above limited upside it makes such a venture highly risky, especially in comparison to other options (many, such as ground based sci-fi with much more limited special effects (ex Black Mirror, Orphan Black, etc) will appeal to much of the same demographics and carry lower risk).

    The special effects driven nature of the field can cause issues for storytelling, both from people not developing it well enough (too much of development time is focused on SFX not the writers room), to major changes of what can and can't be done (in budget) messing with scripts late in development, and various other reasons.

    The dominance of branding, the mania for expansive universes, etc that can make telling a story more difficult. The success of say StarTrek, Starwars, and Dr Who have set an idea of "success" looks like in Sci-Fi. For the producer honchos green/Redlight-ing projects if the idea can not go toward that kind of success it is a strong mark against (not always fatal but a lean against) so pushing boundaries can be difficult.

    Lots of space sci-fi movies in the last decade have come in below expectations. Sure we remember the hits but Tom Cruise collecting water on earth for Saturn moon colonies is largely forgotten for example.

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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph
    Gravity, Interstellar and the Martian all came out around the same time and were pretty solid successes if I remember correctly.
    Also Arrival, which is one of the best SF movies I’ve seen in years. It was in that same pack and gave me a lot of hope for the genre, although feeling less hopeful these days.

    Originally Posted by Mechalich
    …Apple has giant piles of money and they're bringing Foundation to TV while filming in Malta of all places.
    Is that still in production? I saw a trailer a year or two ago, looked promising, but I thought it had already come out and I’d missed it.

    Originally Posted by Cikomyr2
    And space/sci fi shows have such a large budget requirement.
    In general, yes, but there are exceptions. There are a few low-budget entries which are surprisingly good, with Prospect being a recent standout.

    Originally Posted by sktarq
    Sure we remember the hits but Tom Cruise collecting water on earth for Saturn moon colonies is largely forgotten for example.
    Tastes do vary, since this is one of my favorites.

    .
    Last edited by Palanan; 2021-06-07 at 04:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Quote Originally Posted by sktarq View Post
    Lots of space sci-fi movies in the last decade have come in below expectations. Sure we remember the hits but Tom Cruise collecting water on earth for Saturn moon colonies is largely forgotten for example.
    While we're at it, don't forget Tom Cruise dying again and again and again and... to fight off an alien invasion.

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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Is that still in production? I saw a trailer a year or two ago, looked promising, but I thought it had already come out and I’d missed it.
    It's still in production. There were significant COVID-related delays.

    Quote Originally Posted by skartq
    We also have audience expectations. People's idea of what they expect effects wise currently is rather set by movies and miniseries IMO. And that level of special effects is expensive and time consuming. If the level of special effects that the audience expects is not met then the likelihood the show succeeds is rather low. Which when combined with the above limited upside it makes such a venture highly risky, especially in comparison to other options (many, such as ground based sci-fi with much more limited special effects (ex Black Mirror, Orphan Black, etc) will appeal to much of the same demographics and carry lower risk).

    The special effects driven nature of the field can cause issues for storytelling, both from people not developing it well enough (too much of development time is focused on SFX not the writers room), to major changes of what can and can't be done (in budget) messing with scripts late in development, and various other reasons.
    One of the major effects issues for space-based science fiction in particular is the cost of doing aliens. Time-consuming prosthetics and makeup drive up costs a lot, especially in a TV context with considerably more days of shooting compared to movies. This is something that shows up even in really high-budget projects - the Mandalorian focuses on human characters, has a love affair with full-face helmets, and when they brought in Rosario Dawson as Ahsoka Tano they deliberately reduced the complexity of her appearance compared to the animated model of the character so as to making filming easier.

    This is something that has carried over to fantasy series too. More and more fantasy shows that get produced have only humans as major characters, elves, dwarves, and the like have faded away. Not only does this save on makeup and prosthetics, but fantasy humans can mostly use extant historical structures as their fantasy dwellings, which saves on set production. For example, Shadow and Bone filmed all of it's 'Little Palace' scenes, which was like a third of the whole show, in the very real Festetics Palace in Hungary. You can't do that with aliens, in fantasy or sci-fi, you have to actually build a set for the non-human culture.

    Lots of space sci-fi movies in the last decade have come in below expectations. Sure we remember the hits but Tom Cruise collecting water on earth for Saturn moon colonies is largely forgotten for example.
    That's fair, and it includes a number of high-profile failures in big franchises such as Star Wars (disregarding the merits, the ST as a whole came in below expectations and Solo lost money), Star Trek (the rebooted movies petered out with Star trek Beyond underperforming), Alien (neither Prometheus nor Alien: Covenant were major successes), and even Transformers (which sort of counts as space-based and definitely crashed down by the end of the decade). There were also several intended franchises that failed hard, including Ender's Game, John Carter, Jupiter Ascending, and Alita: Battle Angel.

    That said, there are some bright spots. Premiering in 2019, The Wandering Earth made all of the money in China. Appetite for sci-fi in China, fast becoming the world's largest movie market, is high. A space-based franchise that appeals to the Chinese market (Star Wars, for complicated reasons, apparently does not) could become a big success.
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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Is [Foundation] still in production? I saw a trailer a year or two ago, looked promising, but I thought it had already come out and I’d missed it.

    Do you mean the TEASER with Jarred Harris?

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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    The Doctor Who revival.
    Which, as I remember, got mocked by meant people for it's special effects quality. While also having an advantage of an existing fanbase who expected bad special effects.

    Also, Doctor Who has for decades shown that bad special effects still work if the actors can sell them. Sure, they're important, but if they're not truly terrible good writing and acting can make up for them.

    The real question this should be asking is as follows. The Doctor Who revival must have built up a good collection of old and rejected props so where's the Blake's Seven remake?
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    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    I immediately thought of a number of sci-fi projects during the 2010s, but on reflection realised that pretty much all of them were movies*.

    That got me thinking about the converse. We know that fantasy has had any number of TV shows, but how many movies did it get in the last decade? Aside from The Hobbit and Hunger Games I'm struggling to think of any big-ticket fantasy movies.

    Is it possible that the 2010s were a decade during which sci-fi was on the big screen and fantasy on television? I have done no research on this question.



    *Interstellar, Gravity, Prometheus, Alien Covenant, Valerian, John Carter, Riddick, The Martian, Passengers, Ad Astra, Iron Sky, two Star Treks, multiple Star Wars, Guardians of the Galaxy (and Infinity War), and probably several others.
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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Sounds like it. There were a few attempts at Fantasy movie franchises after Lord of the Rings (Percy Jackson, Golden Compass, Eragon, they mostly seem aimed at teens, actually), but none of them really established themselves.
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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Still waiting on a Mass Effect world tv series.
    Could be set during Krogan war or just normal mercenary series.
    Anything pre-First Contact War is a nonstarter - no humans means nobody outside of already-diehard-fans has a reason to care, plus it drives up your costs when literally the entire cast including all background extras end up needing makeup/prosthetics/CGI. We can visit Rachni War/Krogan Rebellions through flashbacks and the like, but an entire series set around that would be far too risky.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Originally Posted by Mechalich
    It's still in production. There were significant COVID-related delays.
    Thanks, for some reason I thought it had wrapped before that took over.

    Originally Posted by Mechalich
    One of the major effects issues for space-based science fiction in particular is the cost of doing aliens. Time-consuming prosthetics and makeup drive up costs a lot, especially in a TV context with considerably more days of shooting compared to movies.
    This was on display in the early seasons of TNG. The first season had some excellent, almost movie-quality alien designs, but they were clearly much too expensive and time-consuming to sustain, which is why they defaulted to little spots and ridged noses to define most of their “alien” species.

    Originally Posted by Mechalich
    There were also several intended franchises that failed hard, including Ender's Game….
    Speaker for the Dead was the first book in that series that I read, and remains my favorite by far. I wouldn’t think it would be too difficult to make a sequel, since you wouldn’t need any of the actors from Ender's Game.

    You would need to do some deft world-building to compress the concepts into a film treatment, but not impossible. “The Name of the Rose in space” is how I’d pitch it, since it’s essentially a murder mystery.

    Originally Posted by Aedilred
    …and Hunger Games I'm struggling to think of any big-ticket fantasy movies.
    I thought Hunger Games was near-future science fiction?

    Originally posted by Eldan
    ...Golden Compass....
    This was a direct victim of the 2008 financial crisis, since that caused a halt to the plans for a second movie.

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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    You would need to do some deft world-building to compress the concepts into a film treatment, but not impossible. “The Name of the Rose in space” is how I’d pitch it, since it’s essentially a murder mystery.
    If what you got out of "The Name of the Rose" is a murder mystery, you need to read it again....

    (The last Iain M. Banks book, The Hydrogen Sonata, really is Name of the Rose in space, because it's ultimately about knowledge and power, who wants it and who wants to hide it, and what they'll do for that end).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Thanks, for some reason I thought it had wrapped before that took over.


    I thought Hunger Games was near-future science fiction?

    Yeah, Hunger Games is definitely near-future Science-Fiction or even teenager-aimed cyberpunk, I don't quite see how one could get the impression it's fantasy.

    And while space Sci-Fi TV seemed less succesful in the 10's (I still fondly remember that one season of Terra Nova), games and such were still going pretty strong, I think. As others said, it's an expensive medium to create series in, similar to fantasy, and with limited appeal unless the series already has an embedded audience.

    There were quite a few attempts to catch the next "big hit series" in that period, both sci-fi and fantasy. Very few worked out.
    Last edited by Taevyr; 2021-06-09 at 06:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Anything pre-First Contact War is a nonstarter - no humans means nobody outside of already-diehard-fans has a reason to care, plus it drives up your costs when literally the entire cast including all background extras end up needing makeup/prosthetics/CGI. We can visit Rachni War/Krogan Rebellions through flashbacks and the like, but an entire series set around that would be far too risky.
    Why not just retcon it for TV?

    I know that changing thisngs for an adaptation is a controversial thing. Hell, I'm one of the first to start ranting and raving when they change something big. But that's generally because they changed something and made it worse.

    Be up front about it. Say that you want to tell a story set in that era but need humanity to be involved. Say that there isn't a lot of storytelling space that isn't already told by the games.

    It's not like the pre-human timeline makes that much sense anwyay. The Krogan expand for 300 years across the galaxy with nobody doing anything. The Rachni Wars take place over 300 years. Aria lives on Omega station for a hundred years before taking it over, then rules the place for a further 200 before Shepard arrives. Etc., Etc.

    Write a reboot story based on a "What if the humans were around" for the big galactic events. Have the humans on the early Council where none of the races trust each other. Tell other tales that could have happened in the gaping holes that exist is Mass Effect's history. Be faithful to the setting while writing it in an AU format.

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    Default Re: Why did space sci fi had such a hard time in the 2010s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Why not just retcon it for TV?

    I know that changing thisngs for an adaptation is a controversial thing. Hell, I'm one of the first to start ranting and raving when they change something big. But that's generally because they changed something and made it worse.

    Be up front about it. Say that you want to tell a story set in that era but need humanity to be involved. Say that there isn't a lot of storytelling space that isn't already told by the games.

    It's not like the pre-human timeline makes that much sense anwyay. The Krogan expand for 300 years across the galaxy with nobody doing anything. The Rachni Wars take place over 300 years. Aria lives on Omega station for a hundred years before taking it over, then rules the place for a further 200 before Shepard arrives. Etc., Etc.

    Write a reboot story based on a "What if the humans were around" for the big galactic events. Have the humans on the early Council where none of the races trust each other. Tell other tales that could have happened in the gaping holes that exist is Mass Effect's history. Be faithful to the setting while writing it in an AU format.
    ...But why?

    Having the humans around for the Rachni wars is pointless because the Krogan are still the only ones who can take the fight to their toxic planets. Not even the Turians were around for that, which is what made the Salarian decision to uplift the Krogan so necessary (and desperate/shortsighted.) And if you have the humans show up during the Krogan Rebellions, it dilutes the impact of the First Contact War, as now you have Turians fighting a war on two fronts instead of stumbling across us during relative peacetime. This makes their eventual collaboration on making the Normandy less meaningful, if it even still happens. Not to mention humans being around for the Krogan Rebellions means they would pick a side, which undermines humans' neutrality on the Krogan question later and makes Shepard harder for Wrex/Wreav to trust.

    I'm not against changing continuity for an adaptation either. But when your changes fray the fabric of the setting and create more inconsistencies and problems than they resolve, you need a really really good reason to have them, and "Rachni Wars/Krogan Rebellions but with humans running around" isn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

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