Monster Mash: Monstrous Adventurer Competition

[ciopo]

or the +1 throwing amulet of natural attacks... but not returning :D

[pabelfly]

Allow me to present:

Detach
[Monster]
You can remove a part of your body and use it as a ranged weapon.

Prerequisite
CON 19, regeneration,

Benefit
As an attack action, you can detach a portion of your body that can make a melee attack other than a bite (such as a paw, tail, or tentacle) and use it as a thrown weapon (range increment 20 feet). The thrown member deals its base damage plus your Strength bonus (not 1 1/2 times your Strength bonus). Special attacks that deal damage, such as poison and acid, take effect normally from the thrown member. Ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain attacks cannot be made with the detached body part.

Special
Tearing off a piece of yourself is traumatic. You take subdual damage equal to one-quarter of your full normal hit point total. Damage reduction cannot reduce the amount of damage taken in this way

Hurl your unarmed strike at range!

That's pretty sweet. Good find.

[GreatWyrmGold]

New dispute!

Hello Pabelfly, thank you for judging!, here are some thoughts for you :

It seems like you’re going to be either an invisible character with visible items, or someone who can’t equip items, both of which really reduce the effectiveness of your build. (-2 points)

I deliberately stayed away from mentioning equipment at all, firstly because it's a touchy issue within the scope of these competitions and secondly because it's very "ask your GM" how it gets adjudicated when it comes to monsters with different than normal. I was only thinking of that within the scope of "can/can't equip things", that it could be ruled that equipped items remains visible didn't cross my mind at all. The only thing I can say is that the invisible stalker natural invisibility is SU, and I assumed it would extend to equipped items. I can see why you would think that it doesn't, given that the invisibility description says that picked up objects remain visibles. I'd argue that a picked up/carried object is not the same as an equipped object, especially if the equipped object is magic, but it's your opinion that matters on this :D. I would like to point out that the only "assumed" item is indirect, from having high ranks of UMD, but that's a side comment on having the versatility of out of combat "things to comntribute to", especially if as an elemental we can't equip anything, meaning our whole WBL can be spent on consumables.
Incidentally, we totally can wand ourselves with gravestrike for at least the sneak attack on undeads. I stayed mum about wand uses given the stigma there is about mentioning items in general, but the skill ranks to make use of them is there! Also, we got the 3/day Cone of cold as a backup plan for those pesky precision-immune enemies!

Not sure how many hits you get in on an enemy - Greater Flyby says you get your dex in attacks per turn but natural attacks are hard-capped at 1 each per turn, but you'd get two of them on your enemy of choice

I'm not sure if there is some confusion here? my understanding of great flyby is that we make one attack roll and one damage roll, then use that against the AC of every enemy in the threatened area of movement, up to DEXMOD targets.
If it's easier to imagine, consider it to be the equivalent to a spell doing a 30 ft wide, 30 ft tall, 70ft long line , hitting against flat flooted AC for that average damage, but you roll the to hit only once and you get to pick the targets. In that sense we only have the one slam attack, but we slam DEXMOD targets in range.

Spoiler: For easier quoting

Show

Hello Pabelfly, thank you for judging!, here are some thoughts for you :

It seems like you’re going to be either an invisible character with visible items, or someone who can’t equip items, both of which really reduce the effectiveness of your build. (-2 points)

I deliberately stayed away from mentioning equipment at all, firstly because it's a touchy issue within the scope of these competitions and secondly because it's very "ask your GM" how it gets adjudicated when it comes to monsters with different than normal. I was only thinking of that within the scope of "can/can't equip things", that it could be ruled that equipped items remains visible didn't cross my mind at all. The only thing I can say is that the invisible stalker natural invisibility is SU, and I assumed it would extend to equipped items. I can see why you would think that it doesn't, given that the invisibility description says that picked up objects remain visibles. I'd argue that a picked up/carried object is not the same as an equipped object, especially if the equipped object is magic, but it's your opinion that matters on this :D. I would like to point out that the only "assumed" item is indirect, from having high ranks of UMD, but that's a side comment on having the versatility of out of combat "things to comntribute to", especially if as an elemental we can't equip anything, meaning our whole WBL can be spent on consumables.
Incidentally, we totally can wand ourselves with gravestrike for at least the sneak attack on undeads. I stayed mum about wand uses given the stigma there is about mentioning items in general, but the skill ranks to make use of them is there! Also, we got the 3/day Cone of cold as a backup plan for those pesky precision-immune enemies!

Not sure how many hits you get in on an enemy - Greater Flyby says you get your dex in attacks per turn but natural attacks are hard-capped at 1 each per turn, but you'd get two of them on your enemy of choice

I'm not sure if there is some confusion here? my understanding of great flyby is that we make one attack roll and one damage roll, then use that against the AC of every enemy in the threatened area of movement, up to DEXMOD targets.
If it's easier to imagine, consider it to be the equivalent to a spell doing a 30 ft wide, 30 ft tall, 70ft long line , hitting against flat flooted AC for that average damage, but you roll the to hit only once and you get to pick the targets. In that sense we only have the one slam attack, but we slam DEXMOD targets in range.

[pabelfly]

Hello Pabelfly, thank you for judging!, here are some thoughts for you :

I deliberately stayed away from mentioning equipment at all, firstly because it's a touchy issue within the scope of these competitions and secondly because it's very "ask your GM" how it gets adjudicated when it comes to monsters with different than normal. I was only thinking of that within the scope of "can/can't equip things", that it could be ruled that equipped items remains visible didn't cross my mind at all. The only thing I can say is that the invisible stalker natural invisibility is SU, and I assumed it would extend to equipped items. I can see why you would think that it doesn't, given that the invisibility description says that picked up objects remain visibles. I'd argue that a picked up/carried object is not the same as an equipped object, especially if the equipped object is magic, but it's your opinion that matters on this. I would like to point out that the only "assumed" item is indirect, from having high ranks of UMD, but that's a side comment on having the versatility of out of combat "things to comntribute to", especially if as an elemental we can't equip anything, meaning our whole WBL can be spent on consumables.

I personally don't think that the ability is intended to work on anything other than itself, including equip items, and that would explain why Invisible Stalkers don't come with any treasure. But you have a good point that the Invisibility spell also makes equipment and gear invisible too. The situation is sufficiently unclear, we're definitely in "ask your DM territory". Your point that wealth can also be spent on boosting combat capability with consumable items instead is well-taken too. (+2 points)

Incidentally, we totally can wand ourselves with gravestrike for at least the sneak attack on undeads. I stayed mum about wand uses given the stigma there is about mentioning items in general, but the skill ranks to make use of them is there! Also, we got the 3/day Cone of cold as a backup plan for those pesky precision-immune enemies!

I think an item like "Wand of Grave Strike" would be worth mentioning as a suggested item. But I'm still not convinced on the lack of consistent damage against the various enemies mentioned.

I'm not sure if there is some confusion here? my understanding of great flyby is that we make one attack roll and one damage roll, then use that against the AC of every enemy in the threatened area of movement, up to DEXMOD targets.
If it's easier to imagine, consider it to be the equivalent to a spell doing a 30 ft wide, 30 ft tall, 70ft long line , hitting against flat flooted AC for that average damage, but you roll the to hit only once and you get to pick the targets. In that sense we only have the one slam attack, but we slam DEXMOD targets in range.[/spoiler]

Ah okay, thanks for the explanation. This doesn't really change or alter points given to you. My damage calculations are intended to get a rough estimate as to what sort of damage you might be doing each turn, should there not be an obvious benchmark like levels in spells, etc. I'm happy with the amount of damage you do each turn and the information here doesn't change that drastically to require me to adjust the score.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Further dispute!

Apologies for the low score. Hopefully my explanation and scoring gives you a better idea on making a good entrant in the future. I would also suggest taking the time to judge yourself - carefully examining and critiquing different builds can help you work out what to consider in making a good entrant in the future (IMO).

I would also suggest explaining your build in more detail in the future. Take a few sentences to explain your spells, manoeuvres, etc and any synergies they have. I haven’t penalized you for this but you could well have missed out on extra points for features and synergies I may have missed while looking through your build.

Yeah okay. I overlooked spending time on explaining the various synergies as I thought everyone would see it as the same as I do.

Note: This is an LA +1 character, so it would start on level 3 and end on 19 instead of starting at 4 and ending at 20. If you want to compare your level 19 LA +1 Wyrmling to a Level 20 character, the phrase you're after is ECL, or Effective Combat Level. No points won or lost here. (0 points)

Note: Please try to list the sourcebooks you use for your build. It makes it easier for anyone looking at your build to check up on rules and mechanics. Especially me when I’m doing judging. No points won or lost here.

I really should have changed it to ECL, you're right. That's my fault on the source block since I messed up and didn't end up copy and pasting it in to my submission.

Power Attack feels like a waste of a feat and quickly becomes obsolete, if it’s not already obsolete when you get it. Power Attack is a great feat, but only if you support it with your build and your feats, and you haven’t done that. (-0.5 points)

I'd like to argue that there is some support there for it.

• His tiny size category grants a free +2 size bonus to his attack rolls.
• Arcane Boost and Arcane Wrath. The former as a swift action spends a spellslot and grants a +spell level bonus to attack rolls for one round. The latter spends a spellslot as a swift action for a +4 bonus to attack rolls for either one attack or Ian entire strike.I(on top of +spell level d10 damage)
• Wraithstrike. Even without magic items, he picks up the spell Wraithstrike early on which casts as a swift action and allows him to resolve all attacks he makes for one round as a touch attack. Since monsters typically have bad touch AC. Due to the vast majority of monsters having terrible touch AC, he can sink his attack bonus significantly for massive damage. Much more damage if he has a mouthpick weapon of any kind.

I do not understand what is up with your alternate point buy option. First, there should only be one option. Second, you should not be getting a +4 Charisma item before level 8. You can’t spend more than 50% of your wealth on a single item, and you shouldn’t have 32K gold before level 8. Lastly, if you did choose that point buy and did get that +4 item, you’re limiting yourself to level 3 spells due to how Sorcerer spells are managed. (-1 point)

Fair assessment, but I felt it needed to be mentioned for the case that someone wanted to focus more on the potential beatstick aspects.

No direction as to where bonus stat points are to be put. All I know is that it doesn’t seem to be Charisma (judging on the point buy you give), which isn’t making a lot of sense for a caster with some spells that require saves and one that gets bonus spells from high Charisma.(-0.5 points)

Sorry, I lost that at some point and never noticed. It's a +1 Cha at HD 4, and +Str for every other stat point. This primarily to keep up on his damage and attack bonuses as most of his list is relegated to buffs, or spells that do not require saving throws. The bonus lack of bonus spells do particularly bite however.

You don't qualify for Jade Phoenix Mage. You need 2 ranks of Knowledge (Arcana), 2 ranks of Knowledge (History) and 2 ranks of Knowledge (Religion). I can't see this in your build. This can be fixed if you changed a whole bunch of skills to cross-class skills. Unfortunate. (-2 points)

I've looked at it dozens of times and I'm not sure how I missed them this time; especially since it's not even my first JPM.

I can’t see any reason why your lone Fighter level wouldn’t be better as a level in Sorcerer or Warblade. It feels like you have been forced to take this level rather than it being an integral part of your build. Putting aside how weak Power Attack is in this build, Sorcerer or Warblade both give you +1 BAB, neither of them delay your entry into Abjurant Champ, and both give you another level of spells or manoeuvres, neither of which Fighter does. (-2 points)
This penalty was originally a -2, but after discussion from other entrants, the penalty was reduced to a -1 instead. (-1 points)

I thought Abjurant Champ required all armor proficencies, but during the conception process I think I actually got it confused with Spellsword since that was on the table at one point. I'd argue that the bonus power attack does bring something to the table for him once he gains Wraithstrike at least. I really would have loved to use the Dragonscale Husk but it sadly inhibits spellscasting.

You've done a good job adding spells and manoeuvres for a dragon that happens to be a Warblade/Sorcerer gish but you haven't done much in the way of character flavour beyond that. Like, your character is supposed to be a practicing martial artist, what non-combat skills do you think such a character should have and why? Or, what spells would you pick that aren't necessarily the most powerful, but are good flavour for your character? (-0.5 points)

It kind of goes back to the initial title of him being the idiot savant of Tiger Claw. While brighter than most white dragons of his age, he still suffers from being immature and poor decision making that's only really remedied by age when he recognizes his earlier follies. He basically decides that doing maneuvers is fun and that is his general drive. Kind of like a kid on class who barely passes everything else but does extraordinarily well in his favorite subject and only realizes later that he can't neglect everything else.

You’re getting Tiger Claw manoevers because of the War Wyrm addition to the build, but I don’t see much synergy between a build pumping Jump for manoeuvres, and a character investing in multiple feats to get to improve flight to engage, presumably hoping to use its skills and spells in aerial combat. (-0.5 points)

Jump is actually fairly important to Tiger Claw for a few maneuvers. Claw at the Moon, Death from Above, Soaring Raptor Strike requires a jump check to work properly. Another to note is that flyby attack allows him to take any standard action during his movement, and the vast majority of his maneuvers are strikes so he can ideally swoop around and initiate fyby strikes as he pleases if full attacking is not an option. Against enemies of large size or larger, during a flyby attack he can initiate Death from Above and abuse the free movement it grants from that to get out of danger quickly.

Didn’t take advantage of dragonbreath, dragonblood or any of the dragon's monstrous abilities. (-1 point)

Sadly his breath weapon damage and range scales only by his size category in which age cursing can help. I can however point to one(abeit incredibly expensive) item that can change that in the Crown of the North Wind from Dragons of Faerun that would turn his breath weapon into a cone of paralysis. I could have gotten entangling breath but his short range I felt would have sacrificed some power. To my knowledge of 3.5 his breath weapon to me looked to be doomed to be mostly worthless so I ignored it in favor of what I believed I could leverage. Otherwise, I can only think of one thing from some 3PP Pathfinder material that would let him leverage his breath weapon in a significant way. As far as dragonblood goes, now that I think about it I could've have ditched minor shapeshifting for draconic aura(vigor).

Wyrm of War is a dragon-specific option. I like to see people taking advantage of race-specific options, although there was no cost to you whatsoever. If there had been a cost to this option, besides forgoing other free options, this would be scored higher.(+0.5 points)

If items are in play, then there definitely would have been more significant cost as he loses out on at least one-third of all of his higher level spellslots. Even if they're not, those are a significant amount of extra spellslots he loses out on sacrificing to fuel Arcane Boost and Arcane Wrath. His lost spellslots are actually why Heighten spell and Versatile Spellcaster are two of his chosen feats so that in a pinch he can cast any lower level spell that he may critically need.

Spoiler: For easy quoting

Show

Apologies for the low score. Hopefully my explanation and scoring gives you a better idea on making a good entrant in the future. I would also suggest taking the time to judge yourself - carefully examining and critiquing different builds can help you work out what to consider in making a good entrant in the future (IMO).

I would also suggest explaining your build in more detail in the future. Take a few sentences to explain your spells, manoeuvres, etc and any synergies they have. I haven’t penalized you for this but you could well have missed out on extra points for features and synergies I may have missed while looking through your build.

Yeah okay. I overlooked spending time on explaining the various synergies as I thought everyone would see it as the same as I do.

Note: This is an LA +1 character, so it would start on level 3 and end on 19 instead of starting at 4 and ending at 20. If you want to compare your level 19 LA +1 Wyrmling to a Level 20 character, the phrase you're after is ECL, or Effective Combat Level. No points won or lost here. (0 points)

Note: Please try to list the sourcebooks you use for your build. It makes it easier for anyone looking at your build to check up on rules and mechanics. Especially me when I’m doing judging. No points won or lost here.

I really should have changed it to ECL, you're right. That's my fault on the source block since I messed up and didn't end up copy and pasting it in to my submission.

Power Attack feels like a waste of a feat and quickly becomes obsolete, if it’s not already obsolete when you get it. Power Attack is a great feat, but only if you support it with your build and your feats, and you haven’t done that. (-0.5 points)

I'd like to argue that there is some support there for it.

• His tiny size category grants a free +2 size bonus to his attack rolls.
• Arcane Boost and Arcane Wrath. The former as a swift action spends a spellslot and grants a +spell level bonus to attack rolls for one round. The latter spends a spellslot as a swift action for a +4 bonus to attack rolls for either one attack or Ian entire strike.I(on top of +spell level d10 damage)
• Wraithstrike. Even without magic items, he picks up the spell Wraithstrike early on which casts as a swift action and allows him to resolve all attacks he makes for one round as a touch attack. Since monsters typically have bad touch AC. Due to the vast majority of monsters having terrible touch AC, he can sink his attack bonus significantly for massive damage. Much more damage if he has a mouthpick weapon of any kind.

I do not understand what is up with your alternate point buy option. First, there should only be one option. Second, you should not be getting a +4 Charisma item before level 8. You can’t spend more than 50% of your wealth on a single item, and you shouldn’t have 32K gold before level 8. Lastly, if you did choose that point buy and did get that +4 item, you’re limiting yourself to level 3 spells due to how Sorcerer spells are managed. (-1 point)

Fair assessment, but I felt it needed to be mentioned for the case that someone wanted to focus more on the potential beatstick aspects.

No direction as to where bonus stat points are to be put. All I know is that it doesn’t seem to be Charisma (judging on the point buy you give), which isn’t making a lot of sense for a caster with some spells that require saves and one that gets bonus spells from high Charisma.(-0.5 points)

Sorry, I lost that at some point and never noticed. It's a +1 Cha at HD 4, and +Str for every other stat point. This primarily to keep up on his damage and attack bonuses as most of his list is relegated to buffs, or spells that do not require saving throws. The bonus lack of bonus spells do particularly bite however.

You don't qualify for Jade Phoenix Mage. You need 2 ranks of Knowledge (Arcana), 2 ranks of Knowledge (History) and 2 ranks of Knowledge (Religion). I can't see this in your build. This can be fixed if you changed a whole bunch of skills to cross-class skills. Unfortunate. (-2 points)

I've looked at it dozens of times and I'm not sure how I missed them this time; especially since it's not even my first JPM.

I can’t see any reason why your lone Fighter level wouldn’t be better as a level in Sorcerer or Warblade. It feels like you have been forced to take this level rather than it being an integral part of your build. Putting aside how weak Power Attack is in this build, Sorcerer or Warblade both give you +1 BAB, neither of them delay your entry into Abjurant Champ, and both give you another level of spells or manoeuvres, neither of which Fighter does. (-2 points)
This penalty was originally a -2, but after discussion from other entrants, the penalty was reduced to a -1 instead. (-1 points)

I thought Abjurant Champ required all armor proficencies, but during the conception process I think I actually got it confused with Spellsword since that was on the table at one point. I'd argue that the bonus power attack does bring something to the table for him once he gains Wraithstrike at least. I really would have loved to use the Dragonscale Husk but it sadly inhibits spellscasting.

You've done a good job adding spells and manoeuvres for a dragon that happens to be a Warblade/Sorcerer gish but you haven't done much in the way of character flavour beyond that. Like, your character is supposed to be a practicing martial artist, what non-combat skills do you think such a character should have and why? Or, what spells would you pick that aren't necessarily the most powerful, but are good flavour for your character? (-0.5 points)

It kind of goes back to the initial title of him being the idiot savant of Tiger Claw. While brighter than most white dragons of his age, he still suffers from being immature and poor decision making that's only really remedied by age when he recognizes his earlier follies. He basically decides that doing maneuvers is fun and that is his general drive. Kind of like a kid on class who barely passes everything else but does extraordinarily well in his favorite subject and only realizes later that he can't neglect everything else.

You’re getting Tiger Claw manoevers because of the War Wyrm addition to the build, but I don’t see much synergy between a build pumping Jump for manoeuvres, and a character investing in multiple feats to get to improve flight to engage, presumably hoping to use its skills and spells in aerial combat. (-0.5 points)

Jump is actually fairly important to Tiger Claw for a few maneuvers. Claw at the Moon, Death from Above, Soaring Raptor Strike requires a jump check to work properly. Another to note is that flyby attack allows him to take any standard action during his movement, and the vast majority of his maneuvers are strikes so he can ideally swoop around and initiate fyby strikes as he pleases if full attacking is not an option. Against enemies of large size or larger, during a flyby attack he can initiate Death from Above and abuse the free movement it grants from that to get out of danger quickly.

Didn’t take advantage of dragonbreath, dragonblood or any of the dragon's monstrous abilities. (-1 point)

Sadly his breath weapon damage and range scales only by his size category in which age cursing can help. I can however point to one(abeit incredibly expensive) item that can change that in the Crown of the North Wind from Dragons of Faerun that would turn his breath weapon into a cone of paralysis. I could have gotten entangling breath but his short range I felt would have sacrificed some power. To my knowledge of 3.5 his breath weapon to me looked to be doomed to be mostly worthless so I ignored it in favor of what I believed I could leverage. Otherwise, I can only think of one thing from some 3PP Pathfinder material that would let him leverage his breath weapon in a significant way. As far as dragonblood goes, now that I think about it I could've have ditched minor shapeshifting for draconic aura(vigor).

Wyrm of War is a dragon-specific option. I like to see people taking advantage of race-specific options, although there was no cost to you whatsoever. If there had been a cost to this option, besides forgoing other free options, this would be scored higher.(+0.5 points)

If items are in play, then there definitely would have been more significant cost as he loses out on at least one-third of all of his higher level spellslots. Even if they're not, those are a significant amount of extra spellslots he loses out on sacrificing to fuel Arcane Boost and Arcane Wrath. His lost spellslots are actually why Heighten spell and Versatile Spellcaster are two of his chosen feats so that in a pinch he can cast any lower level spell that he may critically need.

[pabelfly]

Further dispute!

I'd like to argue that there is some support there for it [Power Attack].

• His tiny size category grants a free +2 size bonus to his attack rolls.
• Arcane Boost and Arcane Wrath. The former as a swift action spends a spellslot and grants a +spell level bonus to attack rolls for one round. The latter spends a spellslot as a swift action for a +4 bonus to attack rolls for either one attack or Ian entire strike.I(on top of +spell level d10 damage)
• Wraithstrike. Even without magic items, he picks up the spell Wraithstrike early on which casts as a swift action and allows him to resolve all attacks he makes for one round as a touch attack. Since monsters typically have bad touch AC. Due to the vast majority of monsters having terrible touch AC, he can sink his attack bonus significantly for massive damage. Much more damage if he has a mouthpick weapon of any kind.

This improves my initial impression of Power Attack somewhat. However, as far as I can see, these same synergies apply to your maneuvers, with the added bonus that your maneuvers also do more base damage. (+0.5 points)


Fair assessment, but I felt it needed to be mentioned for the case that someone wanted to focus more on the potential beatstick aspects.

Sorry, I lost that at some point and never noticed. It's a +1 Cha at HD 4, and +Str for every other stat point. This primarily to keep up on his damage and attack bonuses as most of his list is relegated to buffs, or spells that do not require saving throws. The bonus lack of bonus spells do particularly bite however.

I've mentioned this change in my judging notes but this doesn't net you extra points. I can't give points to you based on stuff that's not included.

I thought Abjurant Champ required all armor proficencies, but during the conception process I think I actually got it confused with Spellsword since that was on the table at one point. I'd argue that the bonus power attack does bring something to the table for him once he gains Wraithstrike at least. I really would have loved to use the Dragonscale Husk but it sadly inhibits spellscasting.

Reading Dragonscale Husk, it can't be enchanted and can't have spells cast on it but I see nothing about it causing arcane spell failure. Perhaps I missed something reading it.

ACFs like Dragonscale Husk are a good way of showing that a level in Fighter was of value to your build, rather than a missed opportunity to get an extra spellcaster or full initiator level.

It kind of goes back to the initial title of him being the idiot savant of Tiger Claw. While brighter than most white dragons of his age, he still suffers from being immature and poor decision making that's only really remedied by age when he recognizes his earlier follies. He basically decides that doing maneuvers is fun and that is his general drive. Kind of like a kid on class who barely passes everything else but does extraordinarily well in his favorite subject and only realizes later that he can't neglect everything else.

Okay, but how is this flavour reflected in your skills? Like, if your character likes to pick fights, perhaps he has a few taunt-based skills or abilities. Or if he likes to test his fighting ability in the wild, perhaps he would have skills in survival, or ranks in Knowledge: Nature. Stuff like that.

I can't really see this sort of thing in your build, perhaps I'm missing it?

Jump is actually fairly important to Tiger Claw for a few maneuvers. Claw at the Moon, Death from Above, Soaring Raptor Strike requires a jump check to work properly. Another to note is that flyby attack allows him to take any standard action during his movement, and the vast majority of his maneuvers are strikes so he can ideally swoop around and initiate fyby strikes as he pleases if full attacking is not an option. Against enemies of large size or larger, during a flyby attack he can initiate Death from Above and abuse the free movement it grants from that to get out of danger quickly.

I’ll try giving an example, since I haven’t managed to make myself clear. You use the maneuver “Claw at the Moon”. This requires a jump check. When you make a jump check, you’re not flying. You’re investing multiple feats into flying, and presumably this is how your character gets about, so there’s a clear lack of synergy here.

Sadly his breath weapon damage and range scales only by his size category in which age cursing can help. I can however point to one(abeit incredibly expensive) item that can change that in the Crown of the North Wind from Dragons of Faerun that would turn his breath weapon into a cone of paralysis. I could have gotten entangling breath but his short range I felt would have sacrificed some power. To my knowledge of 3.5 his breath weapon to me looked to be doomed to be mostly worthless so I ignored it in favor of what I believed I could leverage. Otherwise, I can only think of one thing from some 3PP Pathfinder material that would let him leverage his breath weapon in a significant way. As far as dragonblood goes, now that I think about it I could've have ditched minor shapeshifting for draconic aura(vigor).



If items are in play, then there definitely would have been more significant cost as he loses out on at least one-third of all of his higher level spellslots. Even if they're not, those are a significant amount of extra spellslots he loses out on sacrificing to fuel Arcane Boost and Arcane Wrath. His lost spellslots are actually why Heighten spell and Versatile Spellcaster are two of his chosen feats so that in a pinch he can cast any lower level spell that he may critically need.

If you want to learn more about breath weapons, check out a Dragonfire Adept handbook. It will have advice on different feats related to dragon breath, and you can choose to apply some of these to a breath to add extra effects at the expense of making your breath take longer to charge up. Dragons also have an innate advantage as Dragonfire adepts since they can have multiple sources of Dragonbreath they can apply feats to.

But aside from that, there are multiple feats that require levels in Sorcerer and for the person to have Dragonblood, and you didn’t take advantage of those either in spite of meeting both prereqs.

Any further questions or disputes, don’t hesitate to put them forth.

[ciopo]

is the competition closing? will there be a second round?

[pabelfly]

is the competition closing? will there be a second round?

I hope so, this was a pretty fun comp idea. I especially liked how open the competition was for entries compared to other build competitions on the board that require one specific prestige class.

[GreatWyrmGold]

"The Monster Mash judging deadline is coming soon, isn't it? ...oh, it was a week and a half ago."
Note to self: Next time, set up some sort of automatic notification. Idiot.

Anyways, with one judge, here are the final results:

• In lucky seventh place is The White Wyrmling of Tiger Claw, submitted by QuadraticGish!
• In sixth place is Athear, Lightkeeper of Heironeous by Birchy!
• In fifth place is Wretch by NotInventedHere!
• Tied for third are Asterion the Devout and Antunia, by ciopo and Voldine respectively!
• The silver medal goes to Nachni the Blender, by Voldine!
• And finally, as our champion, we have Bitter Wind by ciopo! Congratulations on your victory!

Thank you to all of our competitors for the work you put into your submissions, and thank you to pabelfly for judging them!


This contest was a bit of a mess even before I forgot the deadline. It's my first time running something like this, and I didn't exactly prepare. But it seems like people enjoyed the contest well enough, despite that? So I'd call it a success.


Which brings me to a question people have been asking me: Will there be another Monster Mash? I think I'd like to! Contests like this are fun, Monster Mash is just different enough from IC and VC to stand out, and the people in the Level-Assignment thread finally have an excuse to design adventurers with all those improved level adjustments. But it also seems like a pretty...gimmicky competition in comparison to the others; it wouldn't surprise me if this competition didn't have as many serial entrants as something more open-ended.

So I'd like to ask three questions to the people gathered here: If a second Monster Mash was held, would you participate? (To enter or judge—we need both!) Please note that "maybe" isn't a very useful answer without some kind of qualifier, like "if the theme is cool enough" or "unless work gets really bad". (And ideally some indication of how likely you think that situation will come to pass, but I don't want to ask too much.)

Second: If a second monster mash was held, what would you like me to do differently? Like I said, this was my first time, I had to rush it out the door when Debatra told me to move discussion to another thread (no shade, it was kinda off-topic), and I had no idea what I was doing. I've made note of several changes I intend to make:

Spoiler: Changes

Show

• Find some dispute boilerplate stick it in the OP.
• 32-point-buy, I don't know why that guy said 30 was standard or why nobody contradicted them until after I made the thread.
• Better explanation of what it means for the monstrous adventurers to be monstrous adventurers. Possibly also include a clear explanation of where points should be taken off for someone who can't function as an adventurer.
• Explain that monsters rated after the contest starts but before submissions close are valid
• Judging period of two weeks
• BETTER THEME

Speaking of which...

Finally: What should next round's theme be? For both of you who don't know, themes are thematic and mechanical restrictions meant to inspire creativity; a restriction that doesn't inspire anyone is a bad theme, but an inspiration that doesn't restrict anything isn't much good either.
The Libris Mortis just wrapped up re-assignment, so I think a theme that encourages people to build undeadventurers would be a good choice. It could be as straightforward as "Undeadventurers," it could be something a little looser like "must use negative energy, negative levels, or ability damage/drain". But if you have another idea, feel free to propose it! If I go through with a "next time," I'll pick whichever theme seems most popular and run with that.

[pabelfly]

"The Monster Mash judging deadline is coming soon, isn't it? ...oh, it was a week and a half ago."
Note to self: Next time, set up some sort of automatic notification. Idiot.

Anyways, with one judge, here are the final results:

• In lucky seventh place is The White Wyrmling of Tiger Claw, submitted by QuadraticGish!
• In sixth place is Athear, Lightkeeper of Heironeous by Birchy!
• In fifth place is Wretch by NotInventedHere!
• Tied for third are Asterion the Devout and Antunia, by ciopo and Voldine respectively!
• The silver medal goes to Nachni the Blender, by Voldine!
• And finally, as our champion, we have Bitter Wind by ciopo! Congratulations on your victory!

Thank you to all of our competitors for the work you put into your submissions, and thank you to pabelfly for judging them!

Happy to help. It was a fun competition idea.

This contest was a bit of a mess even before I forgot the deadline. It's my first time running something like this, and I didn't exactly prepare. But it seems like people enjoyed the contest well enough, despite that? So I'd call it a success.

I think you did fine.

Which brings me to a question people have been asking me: Will there be another Monster Mash? I think I'd like to! Contests like this are fun, Monster Mash is just different enough from IC and VC to stand out, and the people in the Level-Assignment thread finally have an excuse to design adventurers with all those improved level adjustments. But it also seems like a pretty...gimmicky competition in comparison to the others; it wouldn't surprise me if this competition didn't have as many serial entrants as something more open-ended.

So I'd like to ask three questions to the people gathered here: If a second Monster Mash was held, would you participate? (To enter or judge—we need both!) Please note that "maybe" isn't a very useful answer without some kind of qualifier, like "if the theme is cool enough" or "unless work gets really bad". (And ideally some indication of how likely you think that situation will come to pass, but I don't want to ask too much.)

I'd participate, but only if I came up with an entry that I thought was worth entering. It takes a lot of time to write an entry, and a lot of time for someone else to comb through it all to judge it. I wouldn't do that unless I thought the concept were interesting and good enough to warrant the effort.

Second: If a second monster mash was held, what would you like me to do differently? Like I said, this was my first time, I had to rush it out the door when Debatra told me to move discussion to another thread (no shade, it was kinda off-topic), and I had no idea what I was doing. I've made note of several changes I intend to make:

Spoiler: Changes

Show

• Find some dispute boilerplate stick it in the OP.
• 32-point-buy, I don't know why that guy said 30 was standard or why nobody contradicted them until after I made the thread.
• Better explanation of what it means for the monstrous adventurers to be monstrous adventurers. Possibly also include a clear explanation of where points should be taken off for someone who can't function as an adventurer.
• Explain that monsters rated after the contest starts but before submissions close are valid
• Judging period of two weeks
• BETTER THEME

These are good changes. My suggestions:

• Make it clearer as to what "monstrosity" as a scoring category means, besides "is this a monster". Judge can have slightly different interpretations of this but a better indication, perhaps a list of things to consider (making clear that a judge may have other factors they consider when judging this category), would be a good start. I would also consider whether "being able to communicate without items" is included in this list.
• Make clear whether templates can use the assignment thread adjustments or need to use defaults
• Add a column to the build table for ECL.
• I'd specify that monsters start with their full amount of hit dice at the level of their hit dice plus their LA. For example, a build table for an Dark Template Aranea (Dark is +1LA, Aranea is +2 LA, 3 HD) might start as ECL 6, Dark Aranea with feats and monster and template abilities, then start adding class levels from ECL 7.

Finally: What should next round's theme be? For both of you who don't know, themes are thematic and mechanical restrictions meant to inspire creativity; a restriction that doesn't inspire anyone is a bad theme, but an inspiration that doesn't restrict anything isn't much good either.
The Libris Mortis just wrapped up re-assignment, so I think a theme that encourages people to build undeadventurers would be a good choice. It could be as straightforward as "Undeadventurers," it could be something a little looser like "must use negative energy, negative levels, or ability damage/drain". But if you have another idea, feel free to propose it! If I go through with a "next time," I'll pick whichever theme seems most popular and run with that.

I liked the loose requirements of the competition. It gives this competition a bit more of a contrast to competitions like Iron Chef or Junkyard, which centre on maximizing the utility of a specific feat or prestige classes they focus on.

I'd like to see what theme you come up with, I have no opinions as to what should come next.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I definitely like the competition.

I can't commit to entering, though; turns out my inspiration cannot be activated on command.

I will note that, as it stands, none of the judging categories includes "follows/works with the round's restrictions". I'd recommend either making that an explicit part of Elegance or Monstrosity, or making it a 5th category along the lines of "Use of the Secret Ingredients" (Formulae?).

[ciopo]

It was fun "letting loose" with using a mosnter base, so I'm very likely to partecipate again, barring real life inpediments.

I don't know what else there could be you could do different, feels fine as is with what you've listed already. Only thing that comes to mind is if advancing the monster HD is allowed. For almost all monsters there would be little point in advancing the HD that way, with the notable exception of advancing enough to trigger a size change. It's a feature unique to monsters that I would like to make use of. Staying at ECL=HD of course.


On theme, I feel themes more in the line of VC rather than IC would fit better with the feel of this competition. I don't think that "make a [specific PrC]" lends itself much to using a monster base, and the overlap with IC is a bit meh : do you avoid any ingredient that already had a IC round? do you "take away" from the IC pool of choices?

So, I'm on board the "broad strokes theme" train. I think there's enough to not run out of steam anytime soon.

[Glimbur]

I would cook for this and I like the idea of more broad themes. There is a lot of new ground to cover with the monsters with LA, might as well take advantage. Possible themes include: elemental (fire water earth air wood heart), flexibility, large scale changes (war, building something, other stuff), specific party role... options.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Hmm, for the next round's theme, perhaps a fear-based theme? Lean into the idea of monsters as something scary.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Hmm, for the next round's theme, perhaps a fear-based theme? Lean into the idea of monsters as something scary.

I concur with the idea of ability-based theme. I would like to see a "Fly speed"-themed one, where everybody must have a racial fly speed and build on it.

[pabelfly]

I concur with the idea of ability-based theme. I would like to see a "Fly speed"-themed one, where everybody must have a racial fly speed and build on it.

Or a theme centred around building a monster based on a particular type, like "Dragon", "Undead", "Fey", or something like that.

[Voldine]

I'd definitely compete again.

I would like to see anything, really. Perhaps make a 'design goal' type of thing for a theme rather than requiring specific classes?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Or instead of a specific class, we could build around a specific monster/family of monsters, e.g. Make a Lycanthrope, Make a Skeleton, Make a Dinosaur.

[Troacctid]

The question is, do you go for open-ended themes where contestants have a general goal and can choose whatever monster best fits the goal, or do you go for more restrictive themes where you assign a monster or type of monster that contestants then have to find a good use for. I personally suspect it'd be worth having a mix of both.

[Voldine]

The question is, do you go for open-ended themes where contestants have a general goal and can choose whatever monster best fits the goal, or do you go for more restrictive themes where you assign a monster or type of monster that contestants then have to find a good use for. I personally suspect it'd be worth having a mix of both.

I like this idea. Perhaps alternate each contest? Odd contests have a somewhat nebulous goal and even contests we get an assigned monster or category or something?

[Thurbane]

I like this idea. Perhaps alternate each contest? Odd contests have a somewhat nebulous goal and even contests we get an assigned monster or category or something?

Agreed - a mix of both types would be nice.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Sounds like people want a second round, so I'll be doing that. I appreciate the suggestions, and intend to post an updated version of the rules once I've written them. (Kind of a busy time IRL right now, but hopefully I'll have revision time soon!)
I might have to radically change the judging categories, though. I'm not sure that just four is going to cut it.

Anyways, themes. It sounds like some people just want broader themes, while others want a mixture. Voldine suggested that odd contests could have a more nebulous theme while even ones have a more specific requirement, which sounds fun, except that 1 is an odd number and "include a level of one of these four classes" is awfully specific.
So as far as theme goes, I'm thinking something like "creature of the night"? Some undead or classic-horror-monster-type-monster, must be spooky or at least spoopy? Does that sound interesting?

[Troacctid]

Voldine suggested that odd contests could have a more nebulous theme while even ones have a more specific requirement, which sounds fun, except that 1 is an odd number and "include a level of one of these four classes" is awfully specific.

No, this was a very broad, open-ended round. You could use just about any monster you wanted. A specific requirement would lock you into a particular monster, or a restrictive category of monster (e.g. must be a swarm, must be a lycanthrope, must be a beholderkin, must use the Brand of the Nine Hells feat).

[Brackenlord]

So I'd like to ask three questions to the people gathered here: If a second Monster Mash was held, would you participate? (To enter or judge—we need both!) Please note that "maybe" isn't a very useful answer without some kind of qualifier, like "if the theme is cool enough" or "unless work gets really bad". (And ideally some indication of how likely you think that situation will come to pass, but I don't want to ask too much.)

I'm a big fan of monster characters an the LA thread got my creative juices flowing, but I'm not good with open ended fluff so I'll compete only if one of my build stubs can be fleshed out on theme.

Otherwise I'll be glad to try my hand at judging.

[Thurbane]

If a second Monster Mash was held, would you participate?

Depending on how badly "IRL" and other commitments are eating my time, I'd do my best.

[loky1109]

Shall try to be in.

[Morphic tide]

...Out of curiosity, how far will the Aranea's humanoid traits go? Because it cites Lycanthrope as the example for what it gets in humanoid form, which implies it should be everything because Lycanthrope is a template applied to a humanoid. So like... If I were to take an Aranea with an Azurin for its humanoid form, would we go with having the Essentia and bonus feat, but only in Humanoid form? Would an Aranea that turns into an Orc replace racial modifiers while an Orc, or apply them in addition to the Aranea modifiers in all forms like Lycanthropes do?

There's... Basically no answer but "you don't actually have any traits of the form you take" that doesn't cause spectacular weirdness and silly bonus-seeking options. And even that has strangeness with having 50 ft. land speed and 20 ft. Climb in "Humanoid" form but only 30 ft. in hybrid form.

Edit: Okay, checked the actual rules on the Change Shape special ability, the 50 ft. speed thing is apparently actually how it works because you lose your base form's movement modes but no mention is made of your land speed, and the Lycanthrope mention is an awkward choice of specification for the Aranea because the vast majority don't have a single locked form like it does. You specifically get the movement modes, natural weapons, and Extraordinary attacks of the form you take on, so you can have certain blendering baked in or loot utilities, while having 50 ft. speed no matter the choice for some God-forsaken reason.

Interestingly, an Aranea shifting between a Small humanoid and its specifically-Medium hybrid form will have its equipment change to match, so one can get up to some interesting shenanigans if a Flying Small Humanoid exists. Good deal of money saved on undersized special materials, for one.

[pabelfly]

I might have to radically change the judging categories, though. I'm not sure that just four is going to cut it.

Do whatever you think will make for a more interesting competition. You're doing a good job so far.

Anyways, themes. It sounds like some people just want broader themes, while others want a mixture. Voldine suggested that odd contests could have a more nebulous theme while even ones have a more specific requirement, which sounds fun, except that 1 is an odd number and "include a level of one of these four classes" is awfully specific.
So as far as theme goes, I'm thinking something like "creature of the night"? Some undead or classic-horror-monster-type-monster, must be spooky or at least spoopy? Does that sound interesting?

I think the mixture would be a good idea to start with. You can run a few contests, mixing up "broad" and "narrow". At worst, you can gauge better what sort of things people are more interested in and focus on that.

"Creature of the Night" could be a fun concept - much narrower than the previous contest, but there are still a lot of options for characters. I'd be interested.

[pabelfly]

...Out of curiosity, how far will the Aranea's humanoid traits go? Because it cites Lycanthrope as the example for what it gets in humanoid form, which implies it should be everything because Lycanthrope is a template applied to a humanoid. So like... If I were to take an Aranea with an Azurin for its humanoid form, would we go with having the Essentia and bonus feat, but only in Humanoid form? Would an Aranea that turns into an Orc replace racial modifiers while an Orc, or apply them in addition to the Aranea modifiers in all forms like Lycanthropes do?

There's... Basically no answer but "you don't actually have any traits of the form you take" that doesn't cause spectacular weirdness and silly bonus-seeking options. And even that has strangeness with having 50 ft. land speed and 20 ft. Climb in "Humanoid" form but only 30 ft. in hybrid form.

Edit: Okay, checked the actual rules on the Change Shape special ability, the 50 ft. speed thing is apparently actually how it works because you lose your base form's movement modes but no mention is made of your land speed, and the Lycanthrope mention is an awkward choice of specification for the Aranea because the vast majority don't have a single locked form like it does. You specifically get the movement modes, natural weapons, and Extraordinary attacks of the form you take on, so you can have certain blendering baked in or loot utilities, while having 50 ft. speed no matter the choice for some God-forsaken reason.

Interestingly, an Aranea shifting between a Small humanoid and its specifically-Medium hybrid form will have its equipment change to match, so one can get up to some interesting shenanigans if a Flying Small Humanoid exists. Good deal of money saved on undersized special materials, for one.

Had a look at the Aranea. Here are my opinions. take them however you want:
- There's three forms. The first is a spider. The second is a spider-human hybrid. The third is a human with some spider-flavored features, and a person with a high spot check will spot these spider features.
- Lycanthrope is referenced to make the point that none of your forms change in appearance. You're always going to look the same when you change to humanoid form, or with any of your other forms.
- I would not assume that you get any features of whatever humanoid form you decide upon for your Aranea. Like, you could be based on an elf or an orc or raptoran (all with the spinaret and fangs of the spider), but that doesn't mean you get elf or orc or raptoran racial features when in that form.
- Come up with whatever flavour reasons you want for why your move speed as a hybrid human-spider would be different to the spider or the humanoid. I'd say it would be good character-building to do so.

From what I've seen from this round of Monster Mash, it seems like entrants will need to make more assumptions about how monsters work when played as PC characters, so some research and justifying the assumptions you make for how racial features work will be important for your build.

[Troacctid]

"Creature of the night" still seems quite broad unless there are additional restrictions.

For scoring categories, I think there should be one that scores you points for following the round's theme, and one that gives you points for making good use of your monster. So, like, Power + Elegance + Use of Theme + Use of Monster.